This is my little cat, Bob Rosenbaum, brought back from Nepal a long time. And I use it under my big toe, so it won't dig into the... so my toenail won't dig into the... Yesterday I was talking about how we form our own tastes. What we see, hear, feel and so forth, we are actually creating our tastes.

[01:15]

both through our senses. And I was using the example of when I was young, a kid, there were certain foods that I didn't like at all, like beet soup and squash and so forth. But when I got older, I did like them. So I just want you to If you misinterpreted that to mean that I still don't like them, that was wrong. So yesterday we took up all the objects of the census, interact, and yet do not.

[02:25]

Interacting brings involvement. So, actually I'm just going to start on a different page. Whatever we talk about, Suzuki Roshi says, whatever we talk about at any moment is within our mind. So, he doesn't specify here which mind he's talking about, but he means big mind. You know, we say big mind, small mind is an expression of big mind. It's not like they're two different things. But our small mind is the mind of limitation and big mind is the mind with no limitations.

[03:26]

So sometimes we expand our mind beyond all limitations and sometimes we narrow it down. And the way we usually narrow it down is through discrimination. Because discrimination sets things apart. That's what it means. Discrimination is to set things apart. When we allow the mind to expand without discrimination, then it's called singular mind, one mind. Individual, meaning indivisible. We think individual means separate, but actually individual in its larger sense means indivisible. But we don't think of it that way. But I'll talk about that a little bit down the line. So whatever we talk about at any moment is within our big mind.

[04:29]

Everything is within this big mind. But usually we think that there are many things. There is this and this and this. And in the cosmos, we think in the cosmos there are many stars, and we see that. But right now we can only reach the moon. In a few years we may reach some other planets, and eventually we may reach some other solar system. But in Buddhism, mind and being are one, not different. So, because it's really hard to get out of the concept of the limitation of our thinking mind, We think that everything's out there. I remember Sasaki Roshi talking about in the olden days, in the old days of Japan, when we taught children, we said, the moon is in your mind.

[05:40]

But now we teach them that it's over there. to discriminate. So, as there is no limit to cosmic being, there is no limit to our mind. Our mind reaches everywhere. It already includes the stars, so our mind is not just our mind. It is something greater than the small mind we think is our mind, that this is our understanding. So on mine, when we hold our hands in our mudra, it's called cosmic mudra. This is cosmic mudra.

[06:45]

So you're holding the whole cosmos in this mudra. in your hands. It's the whole cosmos in your hands. And you are as great and expansive as the cosmos. So when we say thousands, that's what we do. We're expanded to cover the whole cosmos. That's thousands. reasons why that's not so. So our mind and things are one. So if you think all this is mind, that is so.

[07:51]

If you think over there is some other being, that is also so. But more to the point. When Buddhists say this or that or I, this or that or I includes everything. So listen to the tone of it rather than just the words. Words, you know, we tend to get literal about things. So don't get stuck with the words he's saying. We say you should read between the lines, and in the East they say you should read the back of the page, read the other side of the page. So he says you should listen to the tone of it rather than to the words.

[08:59]

So he says, then he talks about sound. He says, sound is different from noise. Sound is something that comes from your practice. Noise is something more objective, something that can bother you, right? But I think originally the word noise meant music. There's an old band from the 13th century called the king's noise. So I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I think it means the king's music. But now it means something real wide. I have, as a matter of fact, a piece of music from that time. I have a drawing, a cover, where there are these Everybody's playing some kind of instrument, and they're all amateurs. And there are people going like this.

[10:05]

So if you strike a drum, the sound you make is the sound of your own subjective practice. And it is also the sound that encourages all of us. Sound is both subjective and objective. So objectively, we have an instrument. Subjectively, we have an expression, a subjective expression. So the subjective expression connects with the instrument. The instrument is a megaphone for producing a sound that corresponds to the subjective intention. So, when you play an instrument, you have a subjective intention. And then that intention is transferred into one thing or another through the instrument.

[11:22]

It can be music or it can be noise. It expresses your inner subjectivity. It expresses your practice. So, when we play our instruments in our service, these instruments express our inner understanding, either our delusion or our enlightenment. So, you're exposed. When you do that, you're totally exposed. And also, when we express our chanting, we're exposed. That's why it's really hard for us. In the beginning, you know, for most people, would you be kokiho? No. Because you don't want your voice to be isolated, and people actually hear you, because you're not sure how they're going to take it.

[12:26]

So it's scary. It's very scary. to actually project your voice into a congregation of people without feeling self-conscious. So it takes a while to be able to do that. And for people to accept you, you feel that people are accepting your voice, are accepting your expression, the movement of your hands and your body. because you don't know how it's being accepted, your expression. There are five things that people are scared of in the Dharma, and one of them is giving a public talk, because you're putting your voice

[13:28]

out there and you don't know how it's going to be accepted. And just hearing himself, mostly we don't hear ourselves, mostly we just say something, but we don't hear it. When we hear it played back, you know, that's me. I kind of heard that as me. What are the other four? I can't remember. Death. Going crazy. Yeah, death and going crazy. Yeah, and what else? I'm not sure. Yeah, I can't remember exactly, but... Coming late to Zazen. Not how to remember all five. So, one is speaking in public, which actually takes a, you know, in a wise sense, it just means expressing yourself in public, to public scrutinate. So, we have to be careful. So through our training, we learn how to not be separate.

[14:38]

Because when we first do this, we feel isolated. And then little by little, we have to allow ourselves to merge with the instrument so that we gain confidence. physical voice or vocal voice. So when you sound the bell, you say, don't hit the bell. Sounding the bell is like, it should be as close as your own voice. The bell is not something separate from you. It's not an object. Don't treat things as objects. If it's an object, then you'll never create an inspiring sound. So the purpose of the bell is inspiration. We use it to keep time.

[15:39]

We use the Mokugyo to keep time. But actually, its true purpose is the expression of an inspirational sound. So every time we sound the bell, we don't hit the bell, because if you hit it, That's violence. So to actually allow the beater to kiss the bell, so to speak. That's the way I think about it. The beater is actually kissing the bell, and the bell is saying, oh, wow. Nobody's saying, what a great sound, I'm inspired. So we don't hit. But people think of it, always think of it, and it takes a long time sometimes to actually have that kind of sensitivity to be one with the bell. The bell is not your enemy, it's your lover.

[16:44]

So you have a sweet song coming out of the bell, and you have a nice sound coming out So we have to be very sensitive. And if it's too light, there's no substance to it. And if it's too heavy, too loud, it's overbearing. So how do you find the meaning? You always want to give that middle ground that's satisfying. That it balances your body and the instrument

[17:48]

So the sound that's produced should be more dominant than the sound of the beater striking or coming into contact with the bell. So there are two sounds. One is bang, and the other is pooooh, where the sound of the beater beating the bell is minimized, and it's only the sound that's produced. just the sound of the voice of the bell, not the sound of the beater beating the bell. So I get frustrated.

[18:58]

Most of the time I'm frustrated, because no matter how many times I teach that, it's very hard to penetrate. But it's not a complaint. It's just that it's hard to teach. But you have to embody it. If you think this is the kind of sound that I would like to have, then you can do it. If you don't think that, it won't happen. So you have to have an intention. You have to have an intention about what kind of sound do I want to produce here? Every single time that you sound the bell, it should be like that. Just like when you said It's not like sometimes, it's like every time.

[20:08]

In Dzogchen, it feels like we all express ourselves with the instruction that you've given us, and we're all okay like that, and we constantly are adjusting. But when it comes to the various instruments at the temple, either musical instruments, paintbrushes, knives for cooking, How do you balance placing people who have a natural facility versus those who are not so facile to give everyone the opportunity to express themselves, to make the temple run efficiently on one hand, but also allow people to grow on the other? never done before. Because it's not about gaining something, it's about practice.

[21:10]

But what happens is that you can't help asking the competent people to do something that needs competence in order to have it done. So it's a kind of, there's no rule. It's like when this person needs to do something, who's competent, who's not competent. It's hard to not fall into competence in your choices, but you have to make sure that you don't fall into that and allow people to find their way in doing something that they don't know how to do without getting angry at them. That's when we say, what you're doing is not a job, it's a position.

[22:11]

But we fall into saying, and your job is, and your job is, no, your position is, this is your practice position, it's not your job. So that makes it, for me, it makes it differentiate, it differentiates between something that you're competent at, which is called a job, At the same time, I think that people are encouraged to be their best selves. And so the essence of a practice position is to really listen and pay attention to yourself and to those who are showing you things, and also to ask for feedback. When I used to, at Tassajara, when I would open a practice period, I always gave this little talk that everyone is equal, and at the same time all the positions are hierarchical.

[23:30]

So there's the horizontal and the vertical. The horizontals, we're all equal. general labor. We're all equal. But at the same time, we're all in a different position hierarchically. So the general labor person is not the abbot. The abbot is not the general labor person. Although the abbot can do that, which is what I used to do when I did practice periods. I also worked in the kitchen sometimes. But each position is different, and the positions rotate. So whatever your position is, if you're general laborer, and you totally take on that position, you don't know what you're doing, or you may not know what you're doing, but if you do it wholeheartedly, then you are leading the whole practice period.

[24:33]

You are the boss of the practice period. When Suzuki Goshi says, you are the boss, when Zen is Zen, you are the boss, that's what he means. means you are the boss of the whole practice. You are turning the whole practice period when you are in your position doing what that position calls for, whether you like it or not, wholeheartedly, then you are the boss of the whole practice period, and nobody can push you out of your position. interacting brings involvement, otherwise each keeps its place.

[25:38]

Involvement means totally involved. So that's why, if you are an expert at your position, we don't usually put someone who is a chef in the kitchen, because they're not going to learn anything. They're not going to be out of their water. you're not going to learn how to deal with your ego, with your self-centeredness, if you're put in a position that you're good at. So, ideally, to put a person who doesn't know what they're doing in a position, they have to deal with their self-centeredness and their idea about themselves and the way they approach things in a whole new way. I imagine even the most enlightened person picking up a violin for the first time is going to make pretty awful noise.

[26:45]

Yes. So, what is our responsibility receiving the cereal that's burnt? Well, you may give it back, or you may eat it. You have to make a decision. Depends on how badly the cereals burn. I've given things back. Suzuki girls have given food back. Several times I've done that. So, you know, there's nothing fixed. It's very interesting because when I was at Tassajara, this last time, one of my students, You know, I kind of complained about the food because I didn't think it was that good. You know, there are things that are just inedible. That's really not good?

[27:49]

So, and so my son said, well, you know, I just eat everything. Whatever that's served, I just eat everything. You know, whatever it is. And that's great. There's no problem. You know, that's good practice. But I said, that's very good. But if you don't give the cook feedback, they'll never learn anything. So it's a two-edged sword. If you don't say something to the cook, then they'll just keep pulling that out, whereas they could actually correct it and make something edible. So they'll never learn anything if you don't give them feedback. At the same time, yes, you eat it. Sometimes it's inedible, and you put it back, and that's feedback. So it comes around. It's not like one way. It has to go back and forth. So that's how the cooks learn something. Russ? What's the difference?

[28:51]

In Zazen, the feeling arises. It's just sensation. Sit with the sensation to the next level of pain, and then moving. And eating food where there's sensation or feeling on the palate, and then the discernment of, I don't like this taste. And when to move to make a comment to a cook. Well, it's as in, there are times when you might have to move. You just move. But if you move, you just move. That's all. It's not like, oh, I'm bad. This is not good. I mean, this is not. I don't know what you want to say, but whatever the reason is. The first one was good. This is bad. I'm moving. Well, I wouldn't say it's bad. I would just say I can't deal with this anymore. It's not whether it's good or bad. It's just I can't deal with this anymore, which is different from good and bad.

[29:57]

And even with the burnt food, it's not bad. and bad. Bad is a judgment. Inevitable is a fact. I'm interested in this distinction between discrimination and discernment. Yeah. And whether that's what you're talking about. Yeah, discernment and discrimination. Yes, and discernment is like, well, my leg is hurting and I can feel my old cartilage injury starting to act up. Right. I shouldn't say that way, as opposed to, this is just uncomfortable. Yes, as opposed to discomfort. Discomfort is a treasure. But when the knees start separating, that's inedible. Oh, boy. When it comes to food, you know.

[31:13]

Thank you. This is about food. I know. If this section you're on, these last few lines of the Sandhya Kai, feel differently in me, could you read the previous lines? You mean the previous section? The previous section. It just seems quite different shift. Well, yeah, it's a different shift, of course. If I was saying the same thing, you wouldn't need it. Yeah, enlightenment. Still not enlightenment. And then there is the present one.

[32:20]

So we kind of worked that one over. In Japan, we say kibiki. Well, let me just say, to finish this up about the sounding the drum, sound is both subjective and objective. And my comment here is, when the sound harmonizes with our mind and our body, that's called music or harmony. Something that's different than noise. Anyway, I think the whole thing is based on respect for things. How we respect everything. And as Ross was saying, we respect the utensils, we respect the pots and pans, and we respect the instruments that we are using as expressions of our understanding.

[33:34]

So we just treat everything that way, with great respect. And when we do that, we have less trouble with things, and we become one with things. We identify with things rather than feeling subject and object. I'll stick my head out a little bit. This is a stick, it's just a piece of wood, you know? the teacher carries a stick. People say, why do you do that? How can we carry that stick around? Well, you can talk about it in various ways. I've never heard anybody talk about it, actually. But for me, to carry this around means I have to pay attention to what I'm doing. This is, pay attention to what you're doing. Am I a stick? What am I?

[34:36]

So he's asking me this question. So if I carry it like this, it's an object, which I've seen people do, like this. Then it's just an object. So I have to carry it in a way that it's not just an object. object. It's the same with the Buddha on the altar. It's just a piece of wood, a very nicely made piece of wood, I must say. I think it's actually maybe not wood. It may be some kind of composition, but not like a paper machine. But it has an expression.

[35:39]

There's an expression. It's an instrument. The person that made it, made it as an expression of their deepest feeling, understanding of dharma, of Buddha. And that's what it says to us. And so that's why we respect it. We don't respect it because it's a piece of wood. We respect it because it conveys a certain understanding of the person who made it. So, same thing, but we should carry everything the same way. No need to see things as objects. But what is the essence of whatever it is that we're handling? That's practice. Medmittsu no kaphu. I talked about that the other day. Careful way of relating to things.

[36:43]

careful way of relating to each other, careful way of relating to phenomena. So I'm wondering also, when you're talking about giving feedback to the Tenzo, if it's that same way of thinking about, what's the relationship here? Where am I coming from? Right. So you do your best, and then sometimes, Because sometimes talking doesn't help. You talk and talk and boom, boom. OK, OK. So there's no method. It's great to just be sweet and so forth, but sometimes you just have to express something else. It's not anger.

[37:45]

Sometimes it is anger, but it's not anger that you hold on to. It's not harm or evil will. boom, you know, frustration. And you're using it as an instrument and not as a way to get back at somebody. I've never seen you actually hit somebody. Not with my kotsu. Not with your kotsu. But there are various ways of not treating this like an object. You see all kinds of people in the same tradition. They carry the stick in a different way, each of them expressing their non-objectivity. Sometimes you're trained to carry it like this. And sometimes you carry it in a more casual way. But in the same moment, it's never an object.

[38:49]

It's always part of you. Just like if you think everything needs to be careful, slow. If you play a piano that way, or you play a guitar that way, then you're actually missing the essence of your relationship with that and the ability to merge with it. So it's not, you know, sometimes it's energetic. So if you used it, it's part of yourself. that goes back and forth like an echo. If I say something, I will get feedback back and forth. It's not about me. That is sound. Buddhists understand that sound as something created in your mind. I may think, the bird is singing over there, but when I hear the bird, the bird is already me.

[39:57]

Actually, I'm not listening to the bird. The bird is here in my mind already. And I am singing with the bird. If you think while you are studying, the blue jay is singing above my roof, but its voice is not so good, that's what is noise. Making a lot of noise, right? The bird is annoying me. But when you're not disturbed by blue jays, they're really loud. Blue jays will come right into your heart, and you will be a blue jay. And the blue jay will be reading something, and then the blue jay will not disturb your reading. When we think the blue jay is over my roof, that the blue jay over my roof should not be there, that thought is a more primitive understanding of being. Because of our lack of practice, we understand things in that way. Sometimes we lose it, you know, and we get mad at the Buje, or the crows.

[41:03]

Here we have crows. So, he's using Buje's because he's a Tassajara, and the Buje's are pretty annoying. If you let them be. If you think they're annoying, then they're annoying. And the more annoying you think they are, the more annoying they will get. But if we simply let things be and be one with things, then we disappear and can actually be with things and not complain. So this is like the burnt cereal. We can be with it. The more we complain about it, the worse it gets. This is the thing They don't wait for you to leave it out.

[42:04]

They usually don't wait for you to leave it out. If you have something in your hand, boom! Explosion happens in your face. That happened to you, right? Yeah, since that one's in me. Bam! Like a bullet. Now could, at the very beginning of what you were just reading, the section that you were reading, you were talking about hearing the bird, and the bird hears singing, and there is this instrument hearing the singing bird. But I also got the sense that you were saying there are two, but then there's only one. Yes, right. It's not like it comes to the, this is a koan, you know. The teacher asks the student, does the sound come to the ear or does the ear go to the sound?

[43:12]

And the student says, they're both in complete silence. So it means that it's not one or the other. It's just, there it is. So the bird is already in your mind. You don't think the bird comes to the mind. It's already there and occupies the mind. I'm not listening to the bird. When I hear the bird, the bird is already me. Yes. Actually, I'm not listening to the bird. The bird is here in my mind already. So it's not listening. It's like the bird, that's all there is, is bird. And I'm singing with the bird. So don't take it literally. But you can extend that to, say, the whole world. Well, of course.

[44:15]

It's just an example. Of course. All of these are just examples. Right? It's not about birds. It's about how things happen. Right. So there is a world out there. We think. And there is here. And at the same time, the world is here. Yes, you occupy the whole cosmos until you start separating it. There's a hand, but yeah, Nancy's hand. One thing I can't factor in is the base beat or the subwoofer of our urban area. Or if someone's playing music and you can just hear the bass. And that, his curls and jays don't bother me. But you think it's a rhythmic thing, and so it gets into your bones when you have your own rhythm.

[45:21]

But you think it's the same? No. It's possible to let go of your own rhythm. be one with other rhythms, which I would suggest for you to practice. But there's a threshold at which you have to say no. But he's not talking about that. He's talking about how, you know, you can argue about it any way you want, You have to get the gist of it. You can't always find something that's right. So Dwight Way, when we had our Zindo at Dwight Way, there was a drummer across the street who used to practice at 540.

[46:25]

Every afternoon he started at 540. And the end is at 6.30 or whatever. So I had to go over and talk to him and say, you know, like, we're doing this. Can you do it at another time? Stuff like that. So I didn't, you know, tell him to stop. I just talked it over with him and let him decide what he wanted to do. So I was, you know, disturbed. But at the same time, I didn't want to disturb him. I didn't want to react to him. So I thought, how is the best way to deal with this, so I could respond to him, rather than being mean, or just reacting, or showing him how bad I thought it was. I just didn't, you know, just talked it over.

[47:26]

And he's got the understanding that he played at a different time. I can never do this kind of thing with a text and get it to the end. It's like the diamond is never finished, right? Yeah, the diamond is never finished, that's correct. Exactly. But I realize each section has its own gestalt, so I can just do it at any time. but his voice is not so good, that thought is noise. But when you are not disturbed by blue jays, blue jays will come right into your heart, and you will be a blue jay.

[48:27]

And the blue jay will be reading something, and then the blue jay will not disturb your reading. So when we think the blue jay over my roof should not be there, that thought is a more primitive understanding of being because of our lack of practice. We understand things in that way. So the more you practice zazen, the more you will be able to accept something as your own, whatever it is. That is the teaching of Jiji Muge from the Kagan or the Hawaiian school. Jiji means being that has no barrier, no disturbance. Because when things are interrelated, it is difficult to say, this is a bird and this is me. We make this distinction, this is the bird and this is me, but because things are interrelated, actually the bird is me and I am the bird, but we don't see it that way because of our discriminating But at the same time, we are interconnected. We're just different expressions of the same reality.

[49:31]

So the text says, all the objects of the senses interact, and yet do not. Although things are interrelated, everyone, every being, can be the boss. That's what I talked about just a few minutes ago. So each one of us can be a boss because we are so closely related. If I say Mel, Mel is already not just Mel. He is one of Zen Center students. I'm not doing this because it's his Mel. So to see Mel is to see Zen Center. If you see Mel, you understand what Zen Center is. But if you think, oh, he's just Mel, then your understanding is not good enough. I don't know either. If you have a good understanding of things themselves, you will understand the whole world through things. So, we say the gate, the gateless gate, right?

[50:37]

It means you can enter the gate at any moment, through any activity, with anything that you're dealing with. You can access the gate of realization through any activity. So you can enter the gate of realization through sweeping with a broom, or washing a dish. It doesn't matter, because it's always open, and every dharma is a gateway to realization. So each one of us is the boss of the whole world. And when you have this understanding, you will realize that things are interrelated, yet they are also independent. and absolutely independent. There's nothing to compare and you are just you. But we're always comparing. He does it better than me. She does it better than I am.

[51:39]

I'm no good because he's good. We're always doing this kind of comparison. So when you sit with us and when you come into the center, you don't compare yourself with anybody else. Your practice is no matter what you think of it. Oh, I'm so bad. Oh, I'm so bad. I have all these thoughts in my mind. Oh, my legs are aching. Forget it. Just do what you do. It's all perfect. No judgment. As long as you're not judging it, good or bad, right or wrong, like or dislike, this or that, It's just doing your best to do what you're doing. And it has nothing to do with comparing yourself to anybody else. Everybody's practice is different. So when you're comparing yourself to everybody else, you get confused. I should be doing it like this person or like that person.

[52:43]

At the same time, though, we're all doing something in the same way. So we try to do everything like we all do. That's also true. We try to do our best to harmonize an instrument with the orchestra. Each one of us is an instrument, and all together we're an orchestra. So we're playing these various tunes, and we have to be harmonious with each other, listen to each other, interact with each other in a harmonious way. That's all. flat or sharp or ragged or whatever, but it's what it is. And so we all try to make a really nice sound together. I say sound, but sound means whatever, harmonious activity.

[53:44]

And then when we listen to everybody else and we pay attention to what's going on around us, we lose ourselves. But the problem is a lot of us hate to lose keep one thing for ourselves so that we can identify with it. But when you totally let go, then you have your freedom. So the only thing that binds us is our hanging on to our dependencies, our crutches that we build up. If I let go of my crutches, I'll fall over. But actually, you can stand up. by yourself, but you don't know it. So, we have to understand things in two ways. One way is to understand things as interrelated, and the other way is to understand ourselves as quite independent from everything.

[54:48]

When we include everything as ourselves, we are completely independent, because there's nothing with which to compare ourselves. This is the whole gist, is that independent, we have this term, alone. So I've talked about this many times. Alone, we think of as independent. The meaning of alone means one with. So it has two meanings which are the opposite. Alone means isolated. That's the way we usually think of it. But its etymology is at one with, alone, at one.

[55:50]

So at one means totally interconnected. So, we're at one, that is complete independence. Independence means no opposite, because there's nothing outside of us. So, when we, you know, have pain in our legs, As soon as we say, I don't like it, or I shouldn't have it, or blah, blah, blah, as soon as we try to escape, we isolate ourselves. So the only way to actually deal with it is to be one with it. And then there's no opposite. The reason that it causes us suffering is because we oppose it.

[56:58]

Opposed means make it an opposite. And when we have an opposition, we create suffering. When we become one with it, there's no opposite. So there's no place that it's opposing, and then it's just what it is, instead of being something that we create. So the way I was taught was just be one with the sensation. Just be one with it. As soon as you create an opposition, then you create a problem. Yeah? I was wondering if that is the same as the part of the gin joke poem about firewood and ash. Firewood is firewood, and ash is ash. Well, firewood becomes ash. But don't think that the ash is the firewood of before and the ash is after.

[58:05]

So, yes, in a sense, just to be firewood has its past and future, but one thing doesn't turn into another. So, firewood covers the whole universe. allowed to be itself. So we practice moment by moment. We don't say, next moment it's going to be like this, or the last moment it was like that. It's just this moment is just what it is. And the only way to really practice Zazen is this moment. This moment. As soon as you think next moment, you're already lost. You can come back, but as soon as you compare one moment with the next, you create a problem.

[59:12]

So this moment, this moment, that's why this breath, this breath is this moment. This breath, this breath, not the next breath. Or what's it going to be down the line? Or how am I going to feel 10 minutes from now? firewood, firewood, never mind ash, or you can just say ash, never mind firewood, even though this moment is the condition for the next moment. So firewood is the condition for ash, but ash is just ash, and firewood is just firewood. how we have to do it. And it sounds like ash is not isolated, it contains firewood.

[60:14]

Yes, ash contains firewood. But if you say to ash, do you know that you were once firewood? Are you kidding? What's firewood? If you said to tofu. Do you know that once you were a hard object called a bean, called beans? So it was, are you kidding? What's beans? So although the last moment is a condition for the next moment, that's that, and this is this. That's why I say, just go forward and don't look back. You have to look back, but you have to understand the meaning. I struggle with the distinction between chanting, rhythm and song. Yeah. Well, chanting can be melodious, but in the tradition of the Heart Sutra, it's chanting, which is more of a monotone.

[61:34]

Song is usually melodious and has different rhythmic complexities. But chanting is very simple. Anybody can do it. You don't have to know the song. And I went into a Shingon teacher one time, came to Zen Center, and he said, you know, actually Soto Zen, has the most elaborate kind of singing, actually, you know, in all of the schools of Buddhism. But it's very elaborate, wonderful, sometimes kind of expressive singing, which is done solo. But he that anybody could enter into without having to know anything.

[62:38]

Just chanting the Heart Sutra in a monotone. I thought we should do what's difficult for us. That's difficult enough. Just try staying on pitch. It's really hard. If you want to sing, go ahead. I mean, you know. But when you get a whole lot of people together, more of a sing-song chant. But there are various attempts to do this. Some people said it's hard to do the music. But actually, when we do the chant without the begugio, the English one, we don't do it as a kind of chant. I mean, it is a chant. to our way of pronunciation.

[63:47]

It follows our pronunciation in that kind of melodic way. But we don't make up a song about it. So we let the words and the phrasing create the song by itself. So I think we have to stop.

[64:07]

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