So the big one, do you know which, what do we call the big one? Up high. That's Buddha. Okay, that's Buddha. And Buddha is really big. Buddha is so big that Buddha, everything is Buddha. Buddha is so big that everything fits into Buddha. So he's up there, or she's up there. We say he, but it's he, she. It's Buddha. So this doll represents Buddha. So Buddha is so big, but Buddha divides himself into little pieces.

[01:01]

And all these little pieces are whatever you see, are little pieces of Buddha. So there's one big Buddha, and all these little teeny pieces of Buddha, which is you and me, too. You're a little piece of Buddha, and I'm a little piece of Buddha. but we're totally Buddha. So, I'll show you. These are representatives of Buddha, and I'll tell you who they are. understand how to be wise by helping people understand what is real and what is not.

[03:02]

Sometimes we think what is real is real, but it's just an idea. Right? So we have to be very careful not to be This is a wishing staff. I wish the best. I wish for wisdom for all people. Sometimes it has a sword. And the sword is like to cut through stupidity. Do you know what it means to be stupid? The sword cuts through stupidity and cuts to the truth. So he's riding a lion. is also an animal, right?

[04:09]

A person is also an animal. But an animal, this lion is very fierce, big and strong, right? And all the animals. He's also being tamed by love and the other one is good works but he always tried to do something good for people always trying to help people do something good like um uh love your father and mother right he also loved ice cream

[05:58]

Yeah, the trunk is a little one that goes all the way here. So he teaches, Buddha is teaching, what real love is and what real work is. True work, like practicing zazen. You are a true Buddha.

[07:30]

In this one, it's Avalokiteshvara. Avalokiteshvara. In China, they say Kuan Yin. That's easier. Kuan Yin. In Japan, they say Kan Oma. Compassion. Have you ever heard that word? Compassion. He sees people, or she, he or she, is very concerned with people's misery. You know what misery is? And so I'm very, very compassionate toward people.

[08:37]

Pain. I try to alleviate people's pain. She does. Yeah. She's holding... It is a flower. It's a lotus flower. Sometimes I'll leave a... Yeah, this one.

[09:52]

Very nice. Where did that one come from? This one came from Rebecca Mahina. Who made it. But it's also originally from India. All these are from Indian names. Because India is where Buddhism started. And then it came to China. No, thank you. teachers, teaching, Buddhist teaching, and each one has a certain job, a certain role to play in that.

[11:52]

You know, wisdom, love, work, compassion. That's all. So, Thank you very much. Any questions? Thank you very much. Yes, that's the best way to do it. Well, it's always challenging to talk to children about Buddhism because... Oh!

[13:32]

It's always a little bit of a challenge because you have to speak in the simplest of terms. So then you really have to think about how to do that. What is the real essence of things in the simplest of terms? That's of course what Zen is about. A couple of weeks ago, I talked about how we started the Berkeley Zendo and some of the history of the Zendo and so forth. So today I want to continue to talk about things that I didn't get to, I think, last time. But I can't remember what I talked about last time completely. I probably overlap, but you know, whenever I, often people come to me and they say, how come you never talk about this, this, this, this?

[14:50]

And I think, I'm talking about that all the time. So I think repeating something over and over is okay. Repeating something over and over is okay. So the theme, actually, for me is that the Berkeley Zendo has always been like a one-room schoolhouse. No matter what your desire or ability or capability is to practice. Anybody can practice according to their propensity. So it's a very mixed, kind of rich kind of Sangha.

[15:53]

because it includes people who come annually, or once every five years, or once a week, or every day. And there's space for people to practice diligently and who's And for some people for whom this practice is the most important thing in their lives and they give their entire time to it. So there's quite a range, big range of how we practice together. I remember when we started And I was really happy with the fact that we didn't have levels. There was very little hierarchical structure.

[16:59]

So everyone was just on the same level and everybody just practicing. But as you go along, there has to be organization. you can only go for so long without organization. And as a practice place matures and gets bigger, and there are more people and more diversity, there has to be more structure. So, little by little, the structure increases. And in a very small practice place, the teacher and a few students can practice more intimately with each other. But as it gets bigger, the intimacy becomes more widespread, or not widespread, but diffused. So, you know, everything has its good side and its downside, upside and downside.

[18:03]

So it's nice to have a large Sangha with good energy. That's the upside. Downside is that the intimacy is diffused. But as the Sangha has grown larger and people, members have been practicing over a long, long period of time and become more mature, the members who become more mature take care of the newer members, or each other, I would say. I don't know about newer members, I think each other. As time goes on, changes occur, and we have to make sure that we pay attention to those changes. But sometimes we get caught short, not realizing that things have changed, And we haven't really necessarily been aware of that until you have a problem and then you do something.

[19:14]

As I said, in the beginning, it was all lay people. The whole Sangha was lay people, except for myself. I was ordained in 1969, as I said, and Suzuki Roshi didn't know whether to ordain me at Tassajara or to ordain me in Berkeley. He didn't quite know, because I was part of Zen Center, but also I was developing the Zen Do in Berkeley. So he decided to ordain me in Berkeley in order for Berkeley to have a priest as a focal point and for me to practice as a priest with him as my teacher. Because he was experimenting with how to develop practice place in America. So this is one of his experiments. I don't know if he thought of it as experimental exactly.

[20:23]

I don't think he liked the term experiment. He said, when we decide to do something, we carefully decide and then we do it, then we just go ahead and do something and deal with the problems that come up. So he didn't think, will this work or won't it work? When you have an experiment, you think, will this work or won't it work? But that wasn't his idea. It was, since we do it, it's going to work. We do whatever we can to make it work. So that's always been my position. And I've often had people ask me about, well, how do you start a place, you know, or what do you do to make a place work, a practice place? And from the beginning I realized, from observing Suzuki Roshi, that if you're going to take on something like that, you can't do it lightheartedly.

[21:28]

if it's going to work. You have to dedicate yourself totally. So I said to myself, well, that's what I'm going to do. No matter what happens, I dedicate myself totally. So for me, people say, well, how do you choose practice leaders? Well, practice leaders are the people who dedicate themselves to the practice most sincerely and totally. There may even be some wavering, but... The most important thing is the total devotion to what you're doing, no matter what happens. There are people who are very intelligent, people who are very skillful and have good qualities of practice.

[22:38]

But I don't necessarily think of them as practice leaders, unless they're totally devoted to the practice. So I don't force people to be devoted to practice. I just suggest that there be sincerity in practice. This is one of the differences between, I just thought about this this morning, between a priest practice and lay practice. I would not tell a lay practitioner what to do. even if a lay practitioner had been practicing for 50 years, I wouldn't say, you have to do this. Because a lay practice is all volunteer, as far as I'm concerned. So if a person is volunteering, what business is it of mine to say, you should do this, or you have to do that?

[23:47]

That's not my position. because a person's practice is freely given. And so I always appreciate what is offered without telling people what to do. But when a person becomes a priest, it's a different kind of commitment. And when a person becomes a priest, it's a commitment, it's saying, I submit myself to this practice, and you're my teacher, and I'll do what you ask. So sometimes people, they say, what's the difference between a priest and a layperson? And it's hard to say what that is, because we all practice in the same way. But I have a different expectation for a priest, whereas I have really very little expectation of a layperson, even though people are practicing 30 years as a layperson, and we relate as if

[24:58]

That's so, but it's not. So that's why I don't ordain people easily. Sometimes people ask me, well, how do people advance in positions here. I don't like to think of it as advancement. There's no goal, right? You know, we simply take positions according to our abilities. And when I started My vision about our practice place was that because each person has a different lifestyle, so to speak,

[26:08]

We're not all, it's not a monastery. It's mostly lay people with different lifestyles. But in order to relate to the practice, you know, I always, I felt that each person, as much as possible, should have some kind of position. even if it's just cleaning the toilets in the bathroom, or taking care of the incense in the community room, or taking care of the altar, or being a dowan, working in the kitchen, and so forth, to have their position, and the positions keep rotating, and we don't always put a person in a position that they're good at. Matter of fact, There are some positions that you put a person in for the sake of the position or the sake of the work. And there are some positions that you put a person in, ask a person to do because it helps them. And sometimes we wonder, well, why did you put that person in doing that job?

[27:15]

They're not so good at that, but that's really good because it throws you off of your crutches takes you out of what's easy for you and puts you in a difficult position, which is called practice. If you don't have a difficulty with practice, if you don't have a difficulty with yourself in practice, there's something missing. So, I relate to people who take up the challenge of practice. try to help them to giving them more problems. It's not always easy. It's not always easy to give a person a problem. Good one. So we ask people to volunteer for positions.

[28:27]

Sometimes we ask them to do a position, of course. But it's really, they can say yes or no. Which is okay. And over the years, we've had people practicing here 20, 30 more years. and 35, something like that. And so over a period of time people, members become more mature and then they take more responsible positions. And once a year we have a practice period, a six-week practice period, and we have a head student called the shuso, the person who occupies the head seat, and sets the example for practice. Basically sets an example of how you practice sincerely and as totally as you can.

[29:37]

So after a person has been through that rite of passage, because it is a rite of passage, because at the end the members question the understanding of the shuso, and that is a rite of passage. And the shuso sees their ability and their lack of ability and is exposed, really exposed. And that's a very courageous thing to do, to expose yourself to everyone's questioning. Sometimes the people who are in the practice period don't come to that shuso question ceremony, which is very disappointing to me. because everyone should come and ask questions, participate.

[30:41]

This is how we support each other. I think of people as—and then the person has the opportunity to become a practice leader at some point. Not necessarily right away, but that's kind of the rite of passage for a practice leader. But it's only once a year. And then little by little, the practice leaders take on more responsibility. And then people have to get used to the practice leaders. So the more complex it gets, the more problems there are, but at the same time, we help each other. I give a lot of attention to people, members, who support the Sangha.

[31:45]

who really take the time and effort to support the Sangha, and not just come and take, but also give. I've always put forth the understanding that the Sangha is not something that's here and you come and participate. When you come, you are sangha. You are creating the sangha. Sangha, the practice is just the people. And the way we practice together is what creates the practice. So the more we give, the more we get, actually. And so I've always, I kind of, favor, I don't like to use that term, but a kind of favor on people who give a lot and support each other, support the rest of the Sangha as much as they can, take positions, take roles.

[33:02]

And those are the people who I feel are the pillars of the Sangha. So in a sense, yes, I favor them, but I don't like to feel that it's favoritism, because I want to treat everyone the same. I actually feel like I treat everyone the same, whether they're very close to me or not close to me, or come once a year or come every day. It's all the same, really. Sometimes people leave for 10 years and they come back, high, as if they never lived. So it has to be that open, and we don't discriminate a lot.

[34:05]

But when a person has some position of visibility and some authority, then they have to be very, very careful how they carry that authority and carry themselves in that position. The more authority you have, the more careful you have to be. And they say the higher you rise, the harder you fall. I think people are generally, when they get into position, are pretty humble. So that's generally good. Sometimes we don't know, you know, we don't see when we're in a position, our own arrogance or our own bossiness or a feeling about ourselves, which is,

[35:27]

They say that among the difficulties that people have to deal with as they rise in position is the desire for power. The desire for power or authority becomes the most difficult thing to deal with. So it creeps up on you unaware sometimes, and you don't know what that is. Which brings me to this other point, the idea of democracy and autocracy. The Buddhist Sangha, when it began, was basically democratic. Sanghas, I think from China and in Japan, were somewhat autocratic.

[36:32]

Because in Zen, the students would seek out a teacher. There were well-known teachers in China, and the students would form around the teacher a Sangha. So there were these small or large Sanghas which formed around a certain teacher. Zen in America is somewhat like Tang Dynasty China, somewhat like what it was like in Tang Dynasty China, where the students would form around a teacher. And then we'd have different schools which emerged from those sagas. This is the Cao Dung school, or the Soto school, which emerged from Tozan and his student Soto. And then there's the Rinzai school and the Obako school and so forth.

[37:41]

So there were seven schools in China, but five major ones, and only two that came to the West. So there's a kind of autocracy, but within that autocracy is a democracy as well. I think we don't understand necessarily what democracy really is. Of course, you know, the government doesn't understand it at all. But it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean everyone has a voice and somewhat equal voice, you know, but, and that there are elections and so forth. But, and then you can't elect a teacher. You can, but the teaching is passed down. The tradition is that the teaching is passed down from teacher to teacher, from one to another.

[38:45]

But the governance of the Sangha is democratic. So this is what I've tried to maintain. is the tradition of passing down from the teacher and the democratic working of the saga, because there are elections for all of the positions and all of the board and so forth. And there's a lot of freedom in who can take positions and so forth. And as an autocrat, I always consult with people before I do something. Rarely do I just do something on my own, make decisions on my own. I always try to be careful to do that. Actually, the teacher traditionally has the right to choose who is the shuso, who will be ordained, and who to give dharma transmission to.

[40:08]

And I'll explain that a little bit. The head student, so the teacher will feel, I would like my student to fill this position next. But although I have this choice, I consult with the practice committee and other people about, is this a good choice? Do you think this is okay with everybody? So that everybody feels okay about that. So this is an interesting thing for an autocrat. The autocrat should give everything away. And then people feel, oh, then they give it back. But if you try to hold on to it, people won't want you to do that. So if you give it away, people feel you're being generous, and they are generous back. So this is important. If you're kind to people, people will be kind to you, in other words.

[41:10]

If you're generous to people, people will be generous to you. So that's part of the teaching. is to just give everything away, and then people feel fine giving it back to you. Don't feel, oh, if this is your choice, thank you for asking, it's okay. But if you say, but if you try to be autocratic, people say, well, what about this, what about that, you know? They feel something's being withheld from them. So when someone becomes a priest, wants to be a priest, that's pretty much a choice of, the person who's going to ordain them. But I always check that out with people to see if they feel okay about it, because it's part of the Sangha. And I always check also with my peers in San Francisco, the abbots and former abbots of San Francisco Zen Center, because a person here being ordained as a priest,

[42:13]

We may want to practice at Tosahara or in San Francisco Zen Center, and if I have the approval of those people first, then it feels okay for one of my students who's a priest to practice together at San Francisco. But if I don't ask them, they'll say, who is this person? Do we approve of this person as a priest? So that could create a problem for the person. Dharma transmission has nothing to do with the Sangha. Dharma transmission is from one person, teacher to their student, and is independent of a practice place, even though we're all connected in our practice places. And when someone has dharma transmission, it does affect people here. But that's strictly between the teacher and the student, and it's independent of any practice place.

[43:20]

Some people don't understand that, but I wanted to get that clear. So I give Dharma transmission to somebody. It's independent of the practice place. In Japan, before the 17th century, there was a development in Japan where the teachers would give Dharma transmission to their students, but when they went to a temple, they would have to receive the temple transmission. And that created a lot of confusion in Japan, Japanese Zen. And there was a teacher called Minzan who worked very hard to reverse that because it was not traditional. And in those days, if you petitioned the government, they had to petition the government to do that, and you wanted to change something, you would have to be killed.

[44:35]

That sounds very strange. That's why it's so hard to change anything in Japan, because you wouldn't be killed now. But the feeling is, the residue of that is that there's no way to change what's been ordained in the government. That's why it's so hard to deal with. We're very flexible, right? So in order to do anything in Japan that's different, you have to go around the rules. So everybody goes around the rules. It's just understood that you go around the rules. But to change the rules, it's like not possible. That's why we have so much difficulty, one reason why we have so much difficulty relating to Japanese Soto school. Because in order to include us in their system,

[45:40]

which is questionable for us. Actually, I don't like the idea of it so much. But after investigating that for many years, you realize that there's no way that they can change their rules. They just have to make new rules for something. And it takes them a long time to do that. So to register me in Japan and a few others for the first time that anybody had done that, we had to fake a lot of things, you know, that we had done certain things that we didn't do. Although we've been practicing, you know, 20, 30 years, and been abbots, and done practice periods as tazahar and everything, still nothing counts, you know, because it doesn't fit into that system. So we had to take photographs of hoitsu shaving our heads.

[46:47]

Just like that, you know. and pretending, you know, various things. But everybody knew that that was happening, but it was just, you know, the way you do things, because you can't change the rules. So, but we're very flexible. And we're wondering, well, why aren't they flexible? It's so easy to be flexible. You just change something. But it's a different way of thinking. So, people have different ways of thinking and doing things, and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. That's why it's hard to conquer other nations, because, well, how come they don't think the way we do? We're logical and they're not. We just have a different kind of logic, that's all. So, anyway, dharma transmission is a personal thing.

[47:58]

It's not a sangha thing. But it does give the person who has dharma transmission the authority to teach. and to set up their own practice place and to be asked, invited to be an abbot somewhere. So while, you know, this one-room schoolhouse has many diverse threads, you know, just daily zazen and practice and lecture and so forth, but at the same time, there's developing people who want to be teachers. Not everybody wants to do that, but there's some people who really want to do that, and not so many, but then there's, and people will wonder, well, how come so-and-so is doing this, and how come so-and-so is doing that? It's just that people are on different paths and different threads, different ways of practicing.

[49:03]

So we shouldn't be, I mean, I would like us to not be envious of somebody who seems to have something that we don't have. Because if someone is on a track to, say, be a teacher and so forth, it's through their effort that that's happening. And through their unwavering desire to have the Dharma be the most important thing in their life. So it's nice to appreciate that in others and help them to do that. So I would like us to help people to do that, as those people help everyone else to practice. There needn't be any conflict, actually, There doesn't need to be any conflict.

[50:07]

And as the saga has grown and become more mature, and people have been around a long time and become more mature, to taking more responsibility. And I've been doing this for 42 years or something. And I still like doing it, and I've grown up with this saga, so it's hard for me to not continue doing this. There'll be a time when I won't be doing this, or I'll be doing it less, or something like that, because even though I don't think so, I'm getting older. People are telling me I'm getting older. I'm still doing this and I feel obligations to people and it feels funny for me not to do it.

[51:21]

Eventually, there will be probably a new abbot, and some people will think that's a good idea, some people will think it's a terrible idea. This is what happens in the sangha, inevitably. invariably, is when a new abbot, when the old abbot retires, the new abbot takes that position that many people leave because they feel that their peers maybe, you know, they don't want to It just changes, you know, it's just like the atmosphere changes and the feeling changes and loyalties are not transferable necessarily. But I would really feel good if people accepted

[52:35]

The changes, big change, helped to stabilize things and keep it going. But that's not something I'm planning right now. but it's something that's there and it's emerging, right? It's slowly emerging. So slow emergence, I hope, is good so that any transition that takes place, takes place slowly. I have this feeling of slowly backing off and letting others emerge But, although I've been trying that, it's not easy. Because that means change, you know? And people feel the change, and so it's, what's going on?

[53:39]

And also, there will be a conversation about how to make things work in the future because things have just worked because of our history. So do things need to change? Some people would feel maybe there shouldn't be an abbot or there should just be some teachers or something like that. I don't particularly favor that idea because I think there needs to be a focal point, someone who is a focal point and has some authority as a teacher. Otherwise, it's just everybody's idea. So, I think if you have a community of monks who are simply practicing in a loose way, that's very democratic.

[54:43]

Like in Thailand, you can go to Thailand and you can go to a vihara and practice, you know, practice Zazen all by yourself in a little hut, you know. So there's no need for, and then someone will give a, there'll be a teacher who will give talks, but it's not like anybody's anybody's student particularly. But in Zen it's different. just a different setup in Zen. There's someone who is a teacher, and the students are students of the teacher. And if they don't like that teacher, they go someplace else to practice. I think that in Korea, I've never been there, but Christianity took over It was a very strong Buddhist country, but because of the corruption in Buddhism, Christianity crept in and filled the gap.

[55:59]

Christianity is pretty much the major teaching in Korea. The Buddhists moved to the mountains, mountain monasteries. And students go from one to another, they travel around, and when they find a teacher who they like, they'll stay there for a while. If it doesn't work, they'll go find another teacher. But if there's an affinity between the teacher and the student, then the student will stay there if it's okay with the teacher, and become a disciple of that teacher. That's the way Zen works, pretty much. But everyone here is not my student. It doesn't matter. People can come, practice, come and go. But I do have students. Sometimes people say, can I be your student? I never say yes. I always say, well, just keep coming, and let's practice together.

[57:06]

And then at some point, you realize, this is my student, and this is my teacher. You don't have to say anything, unless there's some doubt. Am I really your student? Are you my teacher? And I'll say, yeah. But I don't invite somebody to be my student. Traditionally, the students that get the most attention are the ones who push the most, are the most pushy. Sometimes it's a lot of ego, but you need some ego to practice. in order to practice well, you need some ego. You need to assert yourself. And the people, for me, that get the most attention are the people who assert themselves, and sometimes are the most egotistical. But I always reach out beyond all that, over everybody's head, and try to pull in the ones who are not.

[58:14]

So that's our periphery. Also, a person who has good practice and a good relationship and has some confidence, I don't see so much often. They're just out on the periphery helping people to practice through their own practice. So it doesn't have to be so much contact. And I pull the ones who don't have so much confidence closer. So there are circles and circles around circles. Sometimes we say, well, if I start to retire, maybe I should just see the old students.

[59:19]

But that's not easy either, because I want to encourage the younger students. So there's no way to win this. It'll just have to work itself out. And we all have to be patient with me. Do you have any question, Peter? Well, to realize who you really are. That's the best way. To realize that you're just one lump among all the other lumps. Well, you know, Zazen is, you're always sitting Zazen.

[60:29]

If you're a Zen student, you're always sitting Zazen, no matter what you're doing. So you have to realize, although you're in, you know the old song, I'm nothing but a nothing, I'm nothing but a nothing, nothing but a not a thing at all. That was in the 30s. But you also have to be somebody. I am somebody. But although I am somebody, I'm not any better or worse than anybody else. So humility is knowing exactly where you are, who you are. You know exactly who you are, there's no problem. It's the problem with lack of humility, the problem with lack of humility is that you don't know who you are. So you're trying to be somebody that you're not.

[61:33]

Try to, you know, you need some kind of support for yourself because you feel inferior. The reason you feel superior is because you really feel inferior. To compensate for your inferiority, you want to feel superior. So just feel okay about who you are. Laurie? It seems like part of what you're saying is just sort of accept and let's let it emerge, but it seems like people can go too far if they don't find a way to voice their uneasiness or their questions. Well, people can talk to me. Talk to you? Sure. Yeah. Which brings up another question about what to do in dokusan.

[62:36]

In dhokkhasan, you know, bring questions about practice, about dharma, and about your doubts and something intimate with yourself. The purpose of dōkasan and practice instruction is guidance for you in order to help you to practice. It's not psychology, although psychology is inherent in all interactions. You can't get away from psychology, but it's not psychology quote-unquote. You can think of dokusan as therapy in its true sense, not psychotherapy in its particular sense, the way it's usually used.

[63:53]

Therapy meaning guidance. in your practice, which touches your daily life, of course, because your practice is involved with your daily life. So sometimes we talk about your daily life, but it's always as practice. So yes, you bring up questions that you have about anything that's pertaining to practice. Oh, we're way over.

[64:35]

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