I now taste the truth of the Tartar's words. Well, often lately I hear this question come up with people about teacher and student. What is the role of the teacher and what is the role of the student and what is this relationship and so forth.

[01:06]

and it reminded me of this koan in the Blue Cliff Record, in which it's number 11 in the Blue Cliff Record, which concerns Obaku, or Huang Po, Wang Po was the disciple of Hyakujo Pai Chong and the teacher of Rinzai Lin Chi. So he's in a very illustrious position there, being the disciple of this great Zen master and the teacher of another. very strong person, very imposing figure, very tall and broad and quick and energetic kind of person.

[02:17]

So, Ingo introduces the subject and he says, The Buddha's supreme resources are wholly within his grasp. Talking about U Ba Ku. The Buddha's supreme power is wholly within his grasp. All the souls and all the spirits of heaven and earth are under his command. Even his casual words and sayings amaze the masses and arouse the crowds. His every gesture and action remove the sufferer's chains and knock off their kangs. If a transcendent man appears, the Buddha meets him with the transcendent principle. Who can ever be so wonderful? If you understand the drift of my words, see the following. And here's the main subject.

[03:23]

Obaku addressed the assembly. And he said, you are all partakers of brewer's grain or dregs. If you go on studying Zen like that, you will never finish it. If you go wandering about like you do, when will you ever settle the matter? Another way of saying it. Do you know that in all the land of Tong, there is no Zen teacher? Then a monk came forward and said, but surely there are those who teach disciples and preside over the assemblies. What about that? Obaku said, I do not say that there is no Zen. I just say there is no Zen teacher. And then Setso has a verse.

[04:36]

He says, commanding his way of teaching, he made no point of merit or no pride or haughtiness. Seated majestically over the whole land, he distinguished the dragons from the snakes. Emperor Taichu once encountered him and three times fell into his clutches." So the introduction, Engo is talking about, he's praising Obaku and his way. So he's saying the Buddha's supreme resources or power is wholly within his grasp. He has the command of the Dharma and all the souls and all the spirits of heaven and earth are under his command.

[05:45]

Under his command means not that he's ordering people around or he's the ruler of the universe, but that he's completely in control of himself and understands what makes things work and always goes in accord with the dharma. Even his casual words and sayings amaze the masses and arouse the crowds. characteristic of a good Zen teacher, that a person doesn't have to do anything. Suzuki Roshi was very much like this. Just his walking and sitting down and standing up, the way he drank his tea or ate his food,

[06:54]

were all amazing, but there was nothing extraordinary about it at all. It was just very simple. Just simply eating, just simply walking. It's like never in a hurry, never behind time, never ahead of time, always just right within the moment. And it's like a good musician who is just right within time and doesn't feel hurried or doesn't feel doesn't get behind or ahead and who just feels at home with the music and with the instrument so that it seems effortless.

[08:00]

It is effortless, but which doesn't mean there's no effort. So Suzuki Roshi's way was like that, just seemed effortless, and yet there was something uncanny about it. And this was his basic teaching, even though he gave lectures and so forth. Everything was, his whole life and movement were teaching, his teaching, without trying to do anything, except that he knew what he was doing. And he knew that that was so. So, his every gesture and action remove the sufferer's chains and knock off their kangs. When you're with someone who is like that, you feel that freedom.

[09:05]

You feel that the kangs are like chains, right? And also, they used to put a big board over somebody's neck, you know, just like in the pilgrims in America used to do that, the stocks. I remember Suzuki Roshi saying that when you come upon a person of this kind of character, you are transformed at that time without any effort even though you may go back to your old way but sometimes when we're in the presence of someone like that we become we get somehow step beyond ourself for that time

[10:15]

So, if a transcendent person appears, the Buddha meets that person with the transcendent principle. In other words, a teacher should be able to meet everyone and to be able to address whatever question comes up. This is a challenge of teacher, is to not avoid anyone, to meet each person as they are. And sometimes you have to say, I can't help you. I used to think I could help everyone that came. But I found out that that was not possible. Some people I had to say, please go down the street or go see somebody else.

[11:28]

I can't help you. Sometimes people take up too much space. A person who needs too much help takes up too much space. And demands too much attention from everyone. And we can't go on with our practice. Of course, that can become the practice, but it's very disruptive. So sometimes that person needs more help before they can really attend or practice with us. And we have to know when that's so. So if you want to understand the drift of my words, see the following. So Obaku addressed the assembly and he said, you are all partakers of brewer's grain.

[12:35]

Brewer's grain is the dregs, means the dregs of, after you make the brew with the grain, then there's the dregs that's left over. And so this means you're just hanging on to the words and phrases and old sayings and so forth of the old masters, but you're not really bringing forth the Dharma from yourself. You're going through the motions, but you're not really bringing forth the Dharma in your own practice. That's what he's saying. If you go on wandering about like this, when will you ever settle the matter? He seems to have been talking to an assembly of monks who were wandering around, going to this teacher and going to that teacher and going to this place, trying to find little bits of wisdom from each teacher.

[13:54]

in order to create a kind of patchwork quilt of knowledge and put that in their bag so they could drag that out when they needed to express themselves. This is very common in China. Monks wandering a lot, going from one teacher to another. This is also the case in Korea. In Korea now the monasteries are in the mountains because Christianity took over Korea and the Buddhist monks moved to the mountains and all the monasteries are in the mountains mostly. And the students wander around from one monastery to another looking for a teacher. And the teachers usually have maybe 10 or 15 students.

[15:02]

But the monks stay at the monasteries and practice and sit on the assemblies of the teachers. But the teachers, sometimes they find an affinity with a certain teacher. They're looking for a teacher with whom they have affinity. and then when they find that teacher they'll stay and maybe the teacher will accept them as a student and maybe not so the teachers really don't have a lot of students and a lot of monks but they don't necessarily have a quote-unquote teacher So, Obaku is addressing these monks in China, or the people that he's addressing, who seem to be wandering around collecting information, collecting something, but not really yet grounded in their practice.

[16:22]

So he says, if you go on wandering about like this, like you do, when will you ever settle the matter? Don't you know that in all the land of Tong there is no Zen teacher? Who are you trying to find? What are you trying to find? So then this monk came forward and he said, but surely there are those who teach disciples and preside over the assemblies, what about that? Aren't they teachers? He's kind of taking Huang Po's statement literally. And Obaku said, I don't say there is no Zen, but that it's just that there are no Zen teachers. So this is a koan. There are Zen teachers. Of course there are Zen teachers.

[17:30]

The guy just said so, right? What about them? Aren't they Zen teachers? So what's he talking about? What is a Zen teacher? That's a good question. What is a Zen teacher? And it also brings up the question, what is a Zen student? Well, I would say that the relationship in the dokasan hut should go from the third nin to the first.

[19:03]

That's the role of the teacher. The role of the teacher is to take the analytical, discursive stuff that's always going on, and refine it down to just this, so that you actually see what the koan is of your life. But each one of us is our own teacher. That's what he's ultimately saying. Ultimately, you are your own teacher. No one can teach you. The teacher does not teach you. A good teacher does not teach you.

[20:07]

And so, you sit there waiting for teaching, and the teaching doesn't come. The teacher does you great disservice by teaching you. then you rely on your teacher for something. But it's good to rely on your teacher for something, but not for teaching. A good teacher encourages But encouragement can come in many different ways. Encouragement can come in many different ways. Some people need a lot of encouragement. Everyone's in a different place. Everyone is in a different place.

[21:12]

And a teacher should be able to discern where each person is in their practice and encourage the person according to where they are. But some students need a lot and other students don't need so much. And Suzuki Roshi used to say, because I have so many students, there's so many students here, I can't attend to everybody the way that I could if there were only a few students. So when I'm working with one person, I'm working with everybody. You should understand that when I'm working very closely with one person, I'm actually working with everyone.

[22:20]

And it's very important to understand that. That's quite true. When we see how a teacher works with one person very closely, that's a kind of example. It's kind of, well, what are they doing? What are they doing together? And how does that affect me? How do I see myself in this relationship? I remember we used to watch Suzuki Roshi and Katagiri Roshi together. Although Katagiri Roshi was already a pretty well-developed monk. He was Suzuki Roshi's assistant. And so we used to watch the way they would interact all the time.

[23:25]

And that was the teaching, if you could pick up on it. One has to be able to pick up on the teaching, because the teaching is usually indirect. Suzuki Roshi was a very subtle teacher, very subtle. And you begin to see really that the teaching is not direct. It's always indirect. And it's always by seeing what's going on. You know, when you first would come to the Zen Center, you'd have to find your way in. Nobody would tell you what to do. You just had to find your way in. And the way you found your way in is by observing. and making mistakes and you'd make mistakes and then you'd observe and then you'd think, you know, so it's like drawing out the student, teacher, it's always drawing out the student and taking a step back and leaving the student alone and then the student finds his way there to there and then the student withdraws

[24:44]

another step and then the student finds his way that's the way and so sometimes people say well you're never there you know as soon as you're there you're gone but that's how that's how the teaching is so i learned my way from my teacher I don't really know any other way and I have developed my own just because we are who we are. We develop our own way through our influences and through our own style and personality. So teacher always should be, as much as possible, leaving it up to the student to find a way.

[25:56]

And finding a way is like feeling your way in the dark. Soto Zen is very subtle. Very subtle. Sometimes you just don't know where you are. You have to grope around and you may be groping around for a couple of years. Just sitting Zazen, getting up in the morning, sitting Zazen, groping around. Don't know what's going on. And then suddenly you see where you are. And then you get some confirmation. That's where you are. Yes, that's where you are. You're in the right place. Doesn't that feel right? Yeah, that feels right. then the teacher takes another step back and then leaves you to find your way. So sometimes it's very nice to just practice with the teacher day after day.

[27:04]

But even in that situation, that doesn't go on for a long time. Sometimes you're the attendant of the teacher, and then you have a very close relationship for a little while. But mostly, even in the monastery, where everybody's together a lot, there's not always a close relationship. Sometimes it's close, sometimes it's distant. And this is the way it should be. So you come close for a little while and then you go away and practice by yourself or with students and then you come back and then you go away. So it's important to have both.

[28:07]

It's important to come close and to practice together, but it's also important to go away and practice without the teacher. But even though you're practicing without the teacher, you and the teacher are always practicing together. So what we're doing is just practicing together. Teacher's not teaching. Teacher's just helping you to bring practice or to bring forth something from yourself. Shakyamuni Buddha said, I preached for 45 years but I didn't say anything. Don't hang on to my words. Don't put your words in my pocket. It's just encouragement. It's just giving you some hint.

[29:10]

So teacher is not something you can have. It's just someone that you have a relationship with that brings out, allows you, or encourages you to bring forth your own spirit. So you have to remember this. Very important. That way we can always continue practicing together. So we do form attachment to each other. Students form attachment to a teacher. Teachers form attachment to a student. But there has to be freedom within that attachment. Attachment in the sense of relationship.

[30:31]

We love our teacher maybe, or we hate our teacher, or we like our teacher, or maybe we're indifferent. We have various feelings about it. But there always has to be non-attachment as well as attachment. We always have to be unattached, have freedom from each other. And within this freedom from, we can have a relationship. So there has to be distance. And in order to play ball, you have to have distance. And playing ball becomes much more fun when you can see how far you can throw it and the other person can catch it. So there are students who need to be very close to the teachers.

[31:37]

And then there are students who can be at more of a distance. And it's OK. then there are students who can be at a very wide distance, you know, and maybe teacher and student don't see each other very often, but the foundation is so strong and the connection is so strong that there's no need to see each other so much. So older students leave space, you know, in a wider circle, leave space for other people to be closer. And that circle actually creates a very strong Sangha feeling, even though you say, oh I don't see so-and-so for a long time, you know, but so-and-so's connection is still there, very strong, and that influence is felt in the Sangha.

[32:41]

Sangha feeling is very important. The trust and strength of someone's practice who can be independent yet has a wide embrace of the Sangha, not necessarily always around. But when that person is there, this adds strength to the Sangha. You feel that. So, the purpose of teacher-student relationship is to make the students, help the students to be independent. The most gratifying thing, I think, for a teacher is to see the students be independent, standing up on their own, even when they know there's some doubt, even when they have doubt.

[34:03]

To be able to stand up on your own two feet, even in the midst of your doubt, That's very wonderful. That's a great challenge for a student. And it always throws you back on yourself. I don't know how to do this, or I don't know the answer to that. As soon as you say, I don't know, you have great possibilities. I don't know. is the most wonderful phrase that you can possibly utter. As soon as you say, I don't know, you open up the whole realm of possibilities. If someone asks you a question about what is Zen, what is Buddhism, some question, I don't know. And usually, after that, something will come up.

[35:09]

But, there's this. So, it's important to relate to a teacher, but it's also important to relate to the world as teacher. Every situation is where the teaching is. So some teachers have a systematic kind of koan practice. But our style is not systematic koan practice. But our koan is always present. This practice is a practice of genjo koan, koan that arises every day, every moment of your life.

[36:23]

And these koans are examples of the old masters, but they're also your koans. You just put yourself in that place. They're all about you. Sometimes I'll give a person a koan, usually a koan of, what is it? That's the usual koan that I give to people, and I give that to all of you freely. But I don't expect you to come and say, the answer to the koan of what is it is this. This is just a koan that drives your life. And it's your koan forever. What is it? What is this? This is the koan of, it's also the koan of, I don't know.

[37:27]

And it's also the koan of, this is it. The answer to what is it is, this is it. I'll give you the answer. Anyway, whether it's the question or the answer, it's all the same. This is it? Well, what is it? So, the question brings on the answer, and the answer ... the question is in the answer, and the answer is in the question. And you look doubtful. Well, it seems to me that Obaku and the student have the same problem. They said, you know, the student is obviously, you know, there's one in every crowd who takes you literally and says, oh, but you know,

[38:35]

And Obaku's saying, yeah, you don't get it. And it seems like he's feeling, well, you know, there aren't any teachers. And one of the reasons there aren't any teachers is because there has to be a student for there to be a teacher. That's true. This isn't what's happening here, you know. But when you were talking about the dregs, it struck me that the teacher is also the dregs. Yes. It's what's left over after you make the brew, but it's what catalyzed the transformation into this wonderful thing. The dregs are also important. The dregs may not look like much now, but what I'm trying to say is, it seems to me that You know, the problem of, you know, the wandering around and looking for a teacher, you know, and what are you looking for, is partly the problem of idealization.

[39:50]

You know, we're looking for somebody that's going to be perfect, and oh boy, and if we just align ourselves with that then we'll be perfect too. And, you know, it doesn't take very long before, you know, either you find some flaw in the teacher And it doesn't really matter which way. Or you don't see the flaw. Or you don't see the flaw, which is the worst thing of all. And I think, in some ways, that may have been what happened with Sisyphus, was maybe partly because his teaching was so subtle, and because we had known him for so long, but that a lot of what got perpetuated was maybe not his wisdom but either his foolishness or stuff that was just incidental and had nothing to do with it. For instance, the custom of not showing anybody much and having people wander around and then knocking them because they don't know what they're doing or not being particularly nice to them when they don't know what they're doing.

[41:04]

You know, it's a custom. I've never seen that happen. Well, it used to happen a lot. At Zen Center. In Suzuki Ryoshin? No, Suzuki Ryoshin has never been to anybody, but other people were often mean. Because what happened was, if you knew, then you were in this little in-group, and then you could kind of look down at all those people who were kind of mucking around. This is after Suzuki Ryoshin. Be clear. But I think that this has, I think this is a tenancy, maybe it's an American tenancy, I suspect not, from Ray Murakami. that there's this tendency for people to align themselves with something and not to... The way you describe it is very idealistic, and I wish it worked that way. I don't see that it actually works that way so much. I don't see that we do that, or sometimes that you do it. Maybe the teacher doesn't always catch the football. Then you're waiting there.

[42:05]

Um, and it's hard to play, you know, with that too. And you don't know, people are throwing balls at you from every direction, honey. You know, how could you catch them all? One at a time. So there's a lot of people waiting around, you know, through the ball. They shouldn't be waiting around. Ah, but then if you throw it back... Well... Uh... You said a lot of things there. One thing is that Suzuki Ryoshi was not perfect and no teacher is perfect. That perfect means what you consider perfect. Perfect is just an idea that we have called perfection. So everyone is who they are.

[43:07]

And if you see someone as just who they are, without your ideal of what is perfect and what is not, then that's not a problem. So, Suzuki Yoshi was perfect because of his imperfections, which he revealed. I'm not perfect. is half good and half bad, which includes me. That's right. So, when you see a teacher, you should realize the teacher, even though the teacher looks real good, you should realize, well, that teacher is also half bad. Where is their half badness? And accept that. If you don't accept the half-badness, then your ideal is looking for something else, and you'll never find that.

[44:11]

You'll never find that. So, you have to accept both sides of anyone. If you don't accept both sides of anyone, then you miss the person. And you just, all you have is your idea. You have to get rid of your idea. The teacher is your koan. teacher is a koan for everyone. Well, that's tricky too, because that's part of the reasoning that got us stuck with some people whose badness was not acceptable. Who are you talking about? Dick. Well, he was also a koan. Yeah, he was a koan, but you have to be careful with that reasoning. you have to be able to see a person clearly. And some people are just more destructive than they are helpful.

[45:17]

So, I don't, you know, What are we talking about here? What are you talking about? Well, um... I think that the... I'm talking about the generalities, not being so helpful. Because they don't, um... They don't get down to really, um... You know, being more real. and that feels like a whip. So it's okay, and you know, on the one hand, I think I understand what you're talking about, and it's all wonderful.

[46:28]

On the other hand, you know, this level at which that just doesn't help. Okay, let me say something about what you're saying. When a teacher wants a lot of students, then what you're talking about happens. When a teacher doesn't care whether they have students or not, then that usually doesn't happen. So what causes the problems that you're talking about is when a teacher wants students and controls them. That's what you're talking about. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about giving everybody their freedom, which is just the opposite. You see the difference? Yeah, I do see the difference. It's only when somebody, matter of fact, what I'm talking about is not getting stuck.

[47:32]

how not to get stuck, how teacher and student don't get stuck. If you want something, if the teacher wants something from the student, you get stuck. If the student wants something from the teacher, you get stuck. When both are just giving freely, then you have free relationship. Sometimes the teacher misses the ball. Sometimes the student misses the ball. Hey, that's the game, right? Even Steve Young, you know, sometimes misses the catcher, right?

[48:38]

Sometimes the catcher misses his pass. I mean, that's the game. Hillary wants to say something. Can't hear you very well. ongoing meetings of writing the ethics statement for Zen Center, Gil said something about, well, but if a student feels misunderstood and is misunderstood and is blocked, you know, someone who is blocked from things in Zen Center, that they don't have a good relationship with the teacher and they should leave, because you should not be in a relationship like that. You know, you should know that's not a teacher. And I said, but Gil, it's so much more complicated at Zen Center because You may have a very fine teacher that you relate to. And there are a lot of other teachers around.

[49:42]

And there's a lot of politics. And your teacher may not be able to do anything about what goes on. Absolutely nothing. So I feel like on one level, you're talking about a situation where maybe a small density of you come, and you like the teacher, you don't, and you either see them or you don't, and you go. But in a larger situation, we're faced with all these people you're giving these brown robes to, and you're calling them teachers. You're my teacher, then you say, these people are teachers. I gave them a brown robe. And I find it very confusing. What is my relationship to those people? What expectation should I have from their behavior? What should I expect? Should they just be anybody? If I treat them like a guest student, they're insulted. If I just treat them like anybody... So what is your relationship with someone... Maybe they're not teachers.

[50:52]

They just have brown robes on. We're almost forced to relate to someone as a teacher. We have to talk to people. We have to have practice. They have authority over our lives. So what about that situation where it's not exactly someone that you chose, but you may have someone in the Meiyu that you did choose? What is our relationship? And can we expect it? You almost sound like there are no standards, but aren't there standards? Who says there are no standards? Well, you know, everybody starts somewhere.

[51:52]

And teachers start somewhere. And after they're given a brown robe, maybe it takes 10 years before they're a teacher. But that doesn't mean they're not teaching. Maybe a long time before they reach maturity. I can't wait that long. I'll be dead before. if I wait for them to have their maturity before I give them a brown robe. So if you treat them like teachers, maybe you can get something from them. If you treat them like they're not teachers, what are they doing? Then I don't know what you'll get from them. If you help them to be teachers, that might help you.

[53:06]

Also, The important thing is what you do, how you act, and how you challenge someone. And if you have a relationship, you know, we all have relationships with each other, and it's no more than that. How can you bring out the best in someone? That's your challenge. The challenge of a teacher, for a student, is how do you bring out the best in your teacher? And the challenge for a teacher is how do I bring out the best in the student? It goes both ways.

[54:16]

How can I make this teacher a teacher? I mean, a lot I look at my idealization, I mean, I'm not questioning that anymore, I'm just saying that seemed really presumptuous to look at somebody and think, well, how can I bring out the best? I don't know. It's interesting. Why is it presumptuous? Why wouldn't you bring out the best in anybody you meet? Well, I know, but I guess for me to think that I would know how to make a teacher a teacher, I just reacted that way inside, I guess. Right. But that's a good challenge. You know, if you

[55:24]

I think it's important for us to bring out the best in everyone. We should all be teachers in that way. When you sit down for Zazen, you should give yourself Zazen instruction. You should teach yourself how to sit Zazen each time. And when we meet each other, how do we bring out the best in each other? How do we nurture each other? If we say, so-and-so, you know, isn't, he looks, you know, has the round robe, but he's not really teacher. You're not giving yourself something. I think we should make an effort to act with generosity toward each other all the time.

[56:57]

And if we're not, why not? We come together, you know, and we make some effort to bring out the best in each other, just like with your child, you know. Everyone is your child. You should treat everyone as your child, in that sense, that you want to bring out the best in them, even though they're throwing things at you. Even though. Especially because they're throwing things at you. Well, thank you for your remarks. It's a very subtle area. And I've never heard you talk about it in such a clear way for me, which leaves a lot of room for doubt and murkiness. But it is very subtle.

[57:59]

And one of the things that we don't hear so much about in the Koan collections is the strength of sangha. All of the stories, most of them, are student-teacher, student-teacher. And I think that what we're discovering amongst us is how necessary and important we all are maturing our sanghas. And I really liked what you said about the older students moving out and not having a very invisible but important effect. And this relates to what Hillary was talking about. I had no idea how much students make teachers until I started to go up to Arcata. And I just, I would go, and I think this is a bluff. It's all it is. It's a bluff. And they would sit there and listen, and they'd ask nice questions.

[59:02]

And, you know, something's happening. And I think that we don't really talk about, appreciate enough how much student, teacher to teacher we are within the Sangha. Yeah, it's true. So we'll talk about it more. One more question, then I have to pee. It's a temptation. I wanted to touch just a little bit on what I heard Hillary saying from some thoughts I had already about this, which is You know, I really work hard, I think, with you.

[60:04]

I take a lot of risks with you. And those risks are not in the area that we have explored in Zen risk taking between teacher and students. There's no sex or money or power. There's some power, but there's no sex or money. But it's still risky. I feel risky. Among many things that had happened, the one that really made sense to me was that you had said, I can't teach you anything. So I felt a lot of relief. And it was really quite striking when you chose this case this morning.

[61:07]

But I do think there's a risk element, and not everybody is a risk taker. I'm a risk taker. So I can do that. But what you ask, when you ask students to make teachers,

[61:37]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ