Today I'm going to talk about Daikan Einao, the sixth ancestor's two main disciples, Seigen Gyoshi and Nangako Eijo. That's their Japanese names. And their questions to their teacher. significant questions which are the key points of our practice. But first, I want to talk about questions. You know, if you read the Zen literature, of the koan collections, mainly, you find that almost all the koans are based on somebody's question.

[01:09]

For example, I'll just open the book anywhere. A monk asked Kyosei, I want to peck from the inside. Would you please tap from the outside?" A monk asked Uman, what is it when no thought is stirring and nothing presents itself? Well, that's a good one. Great question. I don't have any question. What should I do? A monk asked Joshu, the stone bridge of Joshu is widely renowned, but coming here I find only a set of stepping stones, teacher. This is the basis of practice, asking a question.

[02:22]

Sometimes people will come to Shosan and say, I'm sorry, but I don't have a question, which is okay, I understand. But asking a question is how you present yourself. Totally. It's the question of myself. And if we don't have a question, it's like riding in a boat but not jumping in the ocean, or going to the beach but not taking off your clothes. Sometimes people say, well, you know, I have a question, but it's really a stupid question. That's really common. But a stupid question is an evaluation. You're comparing your stupid question to an intelligent question.

[03:29]

And sometimes someone will think, well, I have a really intelligent question. And this is what it is. But it's really a stupid question. Mainly because you think it's an intelligent question. A question is just a question. You better be careful. I just want to clarify something from the beginning. When you said, when you Every question is a valid question. That's a valid question. What should I do is a valid question. Yes. But on the other hand, it gives me an opening. So even though the person does have a question, not necessarily a bad thing, it's kind of, what do you do with not having a question?

[04:57]

You know, yes, that's right, what do I do if I don't have a question? How do I, you know, but mostly they don't say that. That comes up sometimes, mostly it's just like, I don't have a question, and so I'll ask them a question, turn it around. But everything elicits a response in some way. So a stupid question is not a stupid question, and a brilliant question is not a brilliant question, they're just questions. is just comparing one thing to another. So, we have shosan and we also have shutso ceremony.

[06:03]

They're similar, they're not exactly the same, but they're similar. Shosan is when the, between the teacher and the student. Shoso, shuso ceremony, is between the shuso and the student. And it's somewhat of a peer relationship, but it's not exactly a peer relationship, because when the shuso is in the position of shuso, even though the shuso's peers are asking questions, The shuso is in the shuso seat, so it's a little different. The shuso is in the position of acting as a teacher, but it's kind of

[07:13]

mixed peer relationship and teacher. So, in the teaching position at that moment, at that time. So we're testing the Shuso's understanding. So, you know, we bring up a question that tests the Shuso's understanding. I remember in the beginning when we had Shuso ceremonies, people would ask the most ridiculous questions. But even though it's a ridiculous question, one should be able to take that question and hit the questioner over the head with it. You dumbbell. You can't escape. This is the position.

[08:20]

There's no escape. So, one has to be turned inside out. So, there's no such thing as a stupid question, except by comparison. Even though sometimes they say, well, that's really a stupid question. There's no such thing as a brilliant question, even though we may say, oh, that's a brilliant question. It's all the way you think about it. So all questions are about the questioner. We say we're testing the shuso. but it's really about the questioner. How you think is what you ask, and how you think is who you are. Or you may say, well, I'm not who I think, or I'm not what I think, but sorry.

[09:29]

So it behooves us to present ourself our whole self to the person we're asking the question of. And then, the person you're asking the question of has the good opportunity to present their whole self to you in response. And this is what the whole thing is about. It's not just about asking a question off the top of your head. Well, see, I can think of something that does not end. What day is it today? That's a good question, actually. But if you say, ha, ha, ha, you're not asking my question. It's useful to be able to turn that into a profound response. Turning a stick... Taking a stupid question and turning it into a profound response.

[10:42]

Show us the profound response. He just did. Well, show me a stupid question. He just did. I'm going to talk about Nangaku Eicho and Seigen Gyoshi. Seigen and Nangaku were the two, as I said, main disciples of the Sixth Ancestor, Daikon Edo. And Seigen was considered his main disciple, and Nangako is considered his main disciple.

[11:50]

So he had two outstanding main, but he had many others as well. I don't know how many, nobody knows exactly how many, but these two stand out, because from Seigen, when people look back, they say, seems to be the fountainhead of the Soto school, and Nangako seems to be the fountainhead of the Rinzai school. But when they were alive, they'd never heard of those two schools. Seigen has the sixth ancestor. This is without the circumstances. Sagan asked the sixth ancestor, how can we practice without falling into class distinctions? And the ancestor said, what have you been practicing?

[12:57]

And Sagan replied, I don't even practice the formidable truth or the supreme truth. And the ancestor asked, well, into what class have you fallen? And Sagan said, I don't even practice the supreme truth. How is it possible to have any classes? And the ancestor said, just like this, just like this, protect and maintain that carefully. This is the dialogue. And Uchiyama Roshi, who has a commentary on this, says, in Zen there is an expression, monjo no dotoku, which expresses one's true self in the form of a question.

[14:00]

So his question was as profound as the teacher's response, in other words. So Sagan asked the sixth ancestor, how can we practice without falling into class distinction? Class distinction can mean stages of practice. Stages of practice means something like delusion and enlightenment. We practice from, because we are deluded people, we practice the various stages in order to end up with enlightenment. That's class distinction. The enlightened are superior and the deluded are inferior.

[15:13]

So inferior and superior and all the stages in between. So the ancestors said, well, what have you been practicing? And he says, I don't practice stages. I have no practice of stages, which is usual in Buddhist practices. There are all these practices of stages. But he says, I am not concerned with the practice of stages. That's not what I do. And the ancestor said, well, then where are you? What do you practice if you don't practice the practice of stages? And Sagan said, since I don't even practice the supreme truth, which is sometimes interpreted as the Four Noble Truths, how is it possible to have any classes or stages?

[16:26]

So then the patriarch says, just like this, just like this. Just this means thusness. It's shikantaza, what we call, what Dogen calls shikantaza, just this, just this, just this. This is what we call also no gaining mind. Sometimes people will say, well, no gaining mind means, is it okay if I have butter on my toast? Or should I have that new coat, you know, that I, or something like that. That's not what we mean by no gaining mind. No gaining mind means that you are just you as you are. You can't add or take away anything. Delusion and enlightenment, our goal is not to go from delusion to enlightenment.

[17:37]

It's simply to be ourselves completely. This is what he means by not practicing the stages or not practicing gaining mind. to become something. What we practice is to become ourselves, which means to practice, you know, a boat has a keel, and the taller the mast, the deeper the keel. The weight on the bottom has to support the superstructure above. the more profound our understanding, the deeper our practice has to become. So in order to practice in an enlightened way, our practice has to become deeper and deeper.

[18:44]

So rather than gaining something called enlightenment, Enlightenment is like a continuous practice. Continuous practice is an enlightened practice. And enlightenment is not something that you can gain. So we talk a lot about practicing with no gaining mind. Would it be helpful You can't take something away. Right. We don't talk about that a lot though. Well, that's an interesting point. We talk about letting go. But letting go... Subtracting mind.

[19:53]

You can't take away what is originally yours. And you can't add something to what is originally yours. So no gaining implies no taking away. And no taking away implies no gaining. But it's an interesting way to look at it. And you can talk about that. Good point though. No gaining means no taking away. The essence is something that can't be gained or taken away. What about losing weight? Losing weight is no losing idea. What about losing weight? Losing weight should be practiced as a no gaining idea.

[21:07]

What do you say that our practice needs to become deeper? Well, more Zazen. Zazen has to be Zazen. And it has to permeate your whole life. That's why we say Zazen, when you really practice, Zazen is really the center of your life. no matter what we think is the center of our life, Zazen is the center of our life because it's the unwobbling pivot, whereas everything else that is associated with our life wobbles in some way and is not permanent, is not substantial in the same way as Zazen, because Zazen is the practice of you can't add or you can't take away. So clearly there's room for improvement.

[22:56]

Yes, that's it. That's what my old teacher said, you're perfect the way you are, but there's room for improvement. Yeah, we are perfect the way we are. That's what Sagan is saying. We are who we are. We're not comparing We do this, we compare ourselves to others, and we compare our delusion to our enlightenment. But we are what we are. The whole point is, we are who we are. We're not trying to make ourselves into something that we're not. So, I remember, you know, speaking of what she's saying, to you who you are now, there's not gonna be somebody else. The weak will always be weak, the strong will always be strong.

[23:56]

Uchiyama asked his teacher, Sawaki Roshi, who was very strong and intelligent and a great Zen master, and he says, do you think if I practice long enough I'll be like you? And Sawaki said, No, I am like, I've always been this way, it has nothing to do with my practice. And you are always being the way you are, it has nothing to do with your practice. I practice to be like me, and you practice to be like you. Well, it just depends on what you mean by perfect. Yeah, misleading is perfect. Yeah. Perfect means to be just as you are.

[24:58]

We think that perfect means some idealistic image. When I meet, when I fulfill my idealistic image, I will be perfect. That's right, perfect implies imperfect, so we don't use that term. We use it, I mean you can use the term of course, but it's not our ideal. Perfection is not our ideal. What do you mean when you say unsurpassed, penetrating, and perfect Dharma? The Dharma is unsurpassed and penetrating, and delivered by an imperfect, unpenetrating Teacher. Speaker. That's right.

[26:21]

He's not saying, when he says, I don't practice the Four Noble Truths, it means I don't practice to gain something. It doesn't mean he doesn't practice the Four Noble Truths, or Buddhism, or whatever. The meaning is not in the words. I mean, the words indicate something, they're not to be taken literally. If you take the words literally, you really make a big mistake. Then you can't understand, I can't understand Zen because I'm taking the words literally. This is, you know, Chinese poetic style, not to be taken literally. To be understood, yeah. Here are these great, you know, Buddhist teachers. You think they don't study the Four Noble Truths just because they say so? It means I'm not attached to distinctions.

[27:28]

I'm just using it as a way to talk about being yourself completely and not practicing to attain some, you know, all of our attainments are on this side, whereas reality is on this side. So all of our attainments are simply worldly attainments. They're simply, all the talk about enlightened states and all this, are simply phenomenal existence. How can you be yourself completely when there's no you? Well, that's your koan. Of course. Great. Great question. Great question. I grant you that question. Please come and see me.

[28:31]

So if you ask questions like that, that's a good stupid question. Because it's so intelligent. Great question. Yeah. Yeah, well that's his translation. meaning focuses on faith as essence and function. Yes. this is Buddhist, you have to understand, these are not his classifications, these are Buddhist philosophical classifications that he's using, that's all.

[29:54]

He's quoting from a book and that's the way that translators, the terms that translators use, so don't get upset by it, try to see beyond the words to the meaning. If we let words upset us, we get caught in words. try to get to the meaning beyond the words. So, how is that useful? Well, it's useful, very useful, in that we don't let something like words get in the way of our understanding. That's really useful. Well, give me an example. No, but give me an example of classifications. In the Awakening Mahayana Faith, which is a text, that's the way it's classified.

[31:07]

So he's just quoting from the text. classified into backsliding and non-backsliding. So you could say they're classifications. Somebody will use the word class, but they mean classification, which means distinction. So you could use the words distinction. Use your own terms. I do it all the time. I find my own terms when I don't align myself with the translator's terms, I just substitute my own terms, which is very good, because it means you're thinking, instead of just simply swallowing something. You're participating in translating. Distinction. Well, we let go of thinking mind, which doesn't mean that the mind is not thinking.

[32:25]

We let go of thinking mind and we let go of conditioning, conditioned postures. So, basically, we return to what's called our original nature. And we simply sit in the center of our original being without the accretions and the discriminating mind, which compartmentalizes and separates everything. So letting go of thinking means letting go of discriminating mind, which separates. And in Zazen, we don't separate, and so we let go of good and bad and right and wrong and so forth. And since we're not in a position to harm anybody, we can let go of good and bad, right and wrong, and simply be one with, I hate to say it, everything.

[33:39]

We're all so stereotyped that it's hard to talk about it. The discriminating mind is going haywire. It's no longer your discriminating mind. There is just discriminating mind going haywire. There is a discriminating mind going haywire. There is a mental activity bringing up thoughts. It's not my mind, it's not my zazen. So we can let go of all that. My this and my that. It's Buddhist activity. You may not think so, but it is. It's Buddhist activity, it's not my activity, although, you know, my is included, if you want to include it.

[34:55]

Okay, but it's better not to, because then, because what my does, what I does, is discriminate. So when you're letting go of discriminating mine, there is no I or mine. That's the point. And, do you have a question? Yes, it's in the Platform Sutra. I didn't get to Nangako's question yet, but that's okay, we'll do that. Nangako? I don't have time. We're supposed to quit at 11, so that the meal gets, everything gets done on time. But next time we'll talk about Nagarkar's question. Oh yes, but we're going to have a memorial service and I'm going to talk about it then.

[36:05]

But I will, since you asked. How many people here knew Jack Van Allen? Well, Jack died yesterday, and he had been dying for, I mean, in that state where you say a person is dying for some time, actually, but in the last week or two, it's been more precipitous. And Alan and I went up there. in Santa Rosa a few days ago and saw him and his wife, but he was rather unconscious. Well, I wouldn't say he was unconscious, but he was like not completely aware. And then Alan and Mary went up yesterday

[37:08]

Tuesday, yes, and he was there when he died. So, and he died a peaceful, seemingly peaceful death. And Jack was a, if you knew Jack, you would never forget Jack. Jack made these wonderful little buddhas, little composite buddhas, and he made, actually he made this Avalokiteshvara that's on the altar, and he's very generous, he always giving me all these, from the years past he would give me, come by with a big bag full of buddhas to distribute to people, like Santa Claus of the Probably, yeah, I don't remember that, but I think you're right.

[38:10]

Yeah, yeah. Some years ago, he gave up making those things because the process was deleterious to his health. And, yeah, he was just an indescribable person. And he had various sides, generous and wonderful and in some ways needy and troublesome. But he just really had a very generous, wonderful heart. He loved a lot of people and made contact with a lot of people. I can just see little by little seeing him deteriorating over the years, getting more, less well.

[39:14]

And so there's some things about Jack I won't miss, but I have to say that I truly miss him. And he was a very sweet man. Yeah, he was a very sweet man. And very, very generous. And he did kind of a lay ordination with Gambo in April. I don't know what that was. I gave him jukai a long time ago. I think this is a little bit more... A little something more. So he practiced in various places all over, but never any one place.

[40:23]

He practiced here for a while, I mean in Baffinan. He was always very respectful to me. Yeah. So anyway, I think tomorrow we'll have a memorial service for them. I mean, if anybody else wants to say anything, please do. I just want to add one thing. One time, years ago, Biker said, you know like the little pieces, those little pieces? I think that's right.

[41:26]

Isn't everything we do measured?

[41:30]

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