Does the light bother anybody? Tonight we take up four precepts at once under the heading of Right Speech. So I'll briefly outlined each one in a little commentary, and then we can discuss them. So right speech is one of the factors in the Eightfold Path.

[01:10]

Not lying, not discussing the faults of others, not praising self at the expense of others, and not defaming the three treasures. These are the four precepts which deal with right speech. And number four, number six, So body, speech, and mind are the three categories of the way we relate. So speech is a big one. So the first one is not telling lies or telling the truth, being truthful in speech.

[02:15]

And some of the aspects of this are rootless words, being loyal to the essence, precept, having no guile, willingness to accept the consequences of our actions, that is, being truthful to ourselves. And so these are just some thoughts which come with this precept. And then the precept of not discussing the faults of others. Some thoughts on that are the realized mind is at rest and deals with things as they are.

[03:29]

The ghost mind is noisy and deals with its own obsessions. creations and paying attention to shortcomings without... paying attention to shortcomings With an objective mind. So this is very important. It's not that, you know, you say, well, how can we criticize? Or how can we point something out when there's fault or something's wrong? So this thought is like to see something objectively without adding your own subjective element

[04:35]

into it. So there's a fault, or there's pointing out faults, and then there's fault-finding. And fault-finding is a kind of attitude which is very subjective and critical, which is different than just pointing out objectively the fault and not having anything in your heart at the bottom of your heart about it, but simply saying something the way it is. Because pointing out faults can be a kind of rejection and separation. Then there's malicious gossip and the question of what is helpful and what is not.

[05:47]

And Suzuki Roshi used to say, when he was at Tassajara, people would ask him about, the things that he sees that are out of place. And he said, when I walk down the path, I just keep my eye on where I'm going, and I don't look to the right or to the left. In other words, I'm not snooping to see who's right and who's wrong, and who's doing this and who's doing that. I'm just paying attention to my practice. Which is a great model, but very hard to do. Especially if you're the person that everyone's saying something to about somebody else. And then there's the aspect of humility, and not stereotyping.

[07:13]

I think this is important, and I'd like to talk about this when I talk about pointing out others' faults. You know, it's easy to stereotype, and pretty soon you believe your point of view, and then you cannot see this person in any other way, then what you set up in your mind is, this is the way this person is. So then there's praising self at the expense of others, or praising self and diminishing others. You know, sometimes when we want to get ahead through ambition, we're too much in a hurry, you know.

[08:17]

And so we put, in order to get up, even though we can't really raise ourselves, then we put other people lower in order to feel higher. And then we gossip about somebody and say, someone's cellulose. Really? And we believe these things. Because when somebody says something about somebody that's derogatory or false, whether we believe it or not, it sets up something in our mind about that person. And when we see that person or think about that person, we think about that remark. And we wonder about it. It's very interesting how that works. And then there's the fact of not comparing yourself, but just dealing with your own practice, because everyone is in a different place and has different things to deal with.

[09:32]

And then there's the fact of responding rather than reacting. And responding with a settled mind instead of reacting with an agitated mind. And Dogye talks about identity action as being a practice to identify with others rather than to separate yourself from others and to realize that someone else's fault is also, could be your fault. And by concerning yourself with your own weaknesses, when you think about someone else's weaknesses, to think about, well, what am I? and to realize there's no you or I. And I'll read you a poet, Gato, the sixth patriarch, concerning this subject.

[10:50]

And then number 10 is not defaming the three treasures, the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Saga. Each one of us embodies the And the Three Treasures looks like Buddha out there, and Dharma is someplace, and Sangha is out there. But Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha is not out there. Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha emerge from our own being. individually and collectively. So when we defamed the three treasures, we're actually negating ourself. Okay, so some of these are more interesting than others to me, I'm not lying.

[12:59]

you know, were brought up saying, do not call the law department. When George Washington and the cherry tree. Pinocchio. Pinocchio. The nose grows longer. Ronald Reagan. I remember Ronald Reagan. We were told that this story about George Washington and the cherry tree, right? That story's a lie. Well, that's what I heard. What happened? Well, he said he never... I mean, basically, the gist of the story is he never told a lie. That can't sound true, is it? No. We don't know. I always walk away from gossip.

[14:09]

Sometimes I get caught by it, though. We all get caught by gossip, here and there. I have to say, I never listen to people's conversations. When somebody's in a bus, you know, talking behind me, I just tune out when somebody's having a conversation that's not concerning me, or that I'm not involved in. I just tune out, and I never overhear things that people say. It's just a kind of something that I just somehow developed without trying to. But I don't want to load my head with stories about people and things. It's just uninteresting. And I think for a Zen student, gossiping is really bad. Sometimes you don't hear things that would be informative if you don't.

[15:17]

But nevertheless, small talk is a little different than gossip. Small talk is about things that are not so important. But small talk can be enlightened talk if it's not self-centered and it's not about somebody. And it's not spreading rumors, and it's not lying. It can be okay. But I remember when Ronald Reagan was telling so many lies, he got this thing on his nose. And it kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And he finally had to have it cut out. Well, I find that I say things to make people feel uncomfortable.

[16:26]

So I probably wouldn't say so much, but I know that in my past experience that not saying so much makes other people feel uncomfortable. Like, oh, she's stuck up, or she's arrogant, or she doesn't care. But a lot of times I'll just be kind of blathering when actually they probably feel comfortable already. So there's this way that I find that I just say much more than I want to, just kind of out of habit. But sometimes you make people feel uncomfortable by trying to make them feel so comfortable. But I think a lot of us do that to some extent.

[17:33]

And I just want to say one more thing, which is I think some people, though I don't hear it so much, but some people do praise themselves at the expense of others, but other people take the other side, which is I'm so bad, I'm nothing. That seems kind of... Well, that's also egotistical. That's the other side of the ego spectrum, is to denigrate, self-denigration. And sometimes we get sympathy that way, and sometimes we feel, oh no, no. You're really okay. It's a way of checking. Let me do that. Some people think that small talk and rumor is something that evolved for the safety of the tribe, that it's actually, it can be like a safety valve.

[18:43]

And sometimes I think to myself that I'm really grateful for BS, because if we were all just relentlessly truthful all the time, each other's throats, you know, so it's a good thing to, you know, if you could just go along and grease the wheels of society and say, you know, this is a really nice haircut, you know. This needs to look quite good, you know. You look good, yeah. It just seems to make things go on. One must be very skillful. Yeah? Yeah. this truthfulness and then there is saying what's on your mind without being cautious or tactful, right?

[19:48]

So, if we just say what's on our mind, this is the truth, you know, so, you know. It's not the truth. It's just your idea of the truth, you know. And I've seen this happen a lot, you know. Well, this is the truth, so I'm saying it. But it's very hurtful. It doesn't have to be put that way. You don't have to express yourself in a way that is damaging just because you think it's the truth. So there's a tactful way of expressing the truth, which is, yeah, your hair is very nice, even though... But that's just self-subjective, right? The hair is not nice or nice. It's just hair. And it's just combed in a certain way. So it's not good or bad or nice or not nice. It's just what it is. So, you can say, yes, very nice, for you.

[20:58]

Meaning, for you, I'm happy for you, because you feel that's very nice, on the top of your head. So, what we think, express a lot, is our truth, is really just our opinion. I was just thinking of how the general public speech has degenerated into people agreeing to sort of twist what's apparently true, like the whole spin phenomenon. After a while, we're convinced that what we saw was not what we actually saw. And there are people that make a lot of money doing this. I mean, this is all they do, is figure out how they can present certain events and facts to the general public and convince them that something different has happened. And I find that really interesting because it seems to permeate everything.

[22:06]

And I work in a corporation and what's really interesting about being a corporate being is that you constantly have to watch what you say in order not to tell the truth. in order to not say what exactly is happening, you have to really tread this tightrope all the time. And so, being the kind of person who finds it hard to pretend that something isn't happening the way that it's happening, it's interesting to observe myself in that context. And many times, when someone asks me something, I say, Don't ask me if you don't want to hear what I really think. If you just want to hear a canned thing, or you want me to disagree with you, ask somebody else. But it is difficult, and I think that we try to bring up our children to be truthful, and yet you have to tell them when it's dangerous to be truthful, and when it's okay to lie.

[23:17]

Because sometimes it is. But this whole media thing, it's really curious. And I wonder just how far it's going. I think it's gone almost as far as it can possibly go. But maybe not. There's this fiction. People believe the fiction that's being created by a certain number of people who are in power and who are sort of in charge of the story that's being told. Well, the masters of illusion and spreading the veil of illusion over people's eyes. Dust, you know, stardust. And you're in this other world thinking that things are different than they really are. That's why it's hard to be truthful or be real.

[24:31]

Because you're dealing with people that have their own illusory way of thinking. And then they don't like you when you present the reality. It's very difficult. It's true. Mary? I was struck by your reference to one of the things you said was willingness to accept the consequences of our actions and I know that's a place where I hadn't thought of it as lying, but it is a place where I do lie sometimes, at least I hedge a lot, where I've taken a position or I've done something or said something which may actually be just fine, but somebody's upset about it. And or when I get questioned, I suddenly realize maybe it wasn't so hot. And suddenly I want to backpedal, I want to soften it, I want to take it back.

[25:34]

I want to hide rather than say, well, yes, that is what I think. Or we defend a position that is not true. This is one of the biggest problems, I think, with people. is defending a position that is trying to hide our truth, our reality, and then we try to defend our false position. And then the karma from that puts us on a track that gets further and further away from the reality of our life. And then every once in a while we're brought up short, you know, and realizing how far off we are because one thing leads to another. And then pretty soon we just keep perpetuating the same falsehood. So accepting the consequences of whatever it is that we do,

[26:43]

is very important because it's painful, maybe painful, but at least we stay rooted in reality. So sometimes when a criminal gets caught, they're so happy that they got caught because they can finally reroute themselves into reality, even though they may not end up in jail. This happens It seems like in the horrendous things that have happened in the 20th century, sometimes religious people have borne witness and said what's happening. And often they have not and they've remained silent. And to me that's a form of lying. That when someone should step forward,

[27:47]

I agree with you about skill, but when someone should step forward and have courage, I guess I feel really deeply that the world needs spiritual people to have that kind of courage, to be able to simply and straightforwardly say what's actually going on and not get involved in, you know, group collusions. That's one thing. I feel very, very concerned about that because I don't necessarily see a lot of training in that area. And then, secondly, you know, communities can take on a kind of a political way of stonewalling. And that feels to me lying too, where you are at a meeting and you don't say your opinion and then you go to a smaller meeting and then that's where your resistance comes out and you say how you feel. And I think that those, to me, those are aspects of community that could be really difficult, and corruption can come in.

[29:00]

And then I wonder, what does Suzuki Roshi mean just as himself? Yes, he walks, and he only lives here. But what about as a spiritual leader of a community? then doesn't he have to look and see about the health of his community? I'm not sure exactly where you are in that one. Maybe not to look, to criticize, but doesn't he have to see what's going on and concern himself? I'm not saying so, but doesn't a spiritual leader have to actually look, not to be critical of other people, but they have to see what really, really is going on in their community? Isn't that true? Oh, absolutely. I see what you're saying. I don't look at her, I just look at my practice. That's just a... He doesn't mean that, literally. Right, but I mean there's more.

[30:02]

That's maybe 60% of it, right? I think that, you know, yes, A spiritual leader should know what's going on with everybody as much as possible, as much as you can know about what's going on. You can't know everything that's going on with everybody. But you can feel the undercurrent of what's going on with the community. I mean, one should be able to feel the rumbling of the earth, or the rustling of the leaves. That seems necessary. It doesn't have to be critical, but... No. It's... You can't hide from... Yeah, but where did you get the... Where did you get the... Because of what I said about Suzuki Roshi? No, I was just... I don't... Suzuki Roshi was hiding from what the stories I've heard, but I was just kind of using it as an example because I've kind of heard that... I think... Anyway... Yeah.

[31:13]

I just was... I mean, it seems to me that sometimes you do have to look at what's going on and see. Yeah, you always have to be aware. Always. That's right. You always have to be aware. And I think Suzuki Yoshi was pretty aware, but he was not always criticizing people. What he meant was, I'm not criticizing people. I'm promoting people. I'm promoting everyone's practice. I'm not criticizing people. Although sometimes it's very critical. And sometimes it's very critical of me, you know, and... But... Not... Not coming out and saying something that should be said is a way, it's not lying, but it's not being totally forthcoming.

[32:22]

And so it's not allowing the truth to do its work, I would say. Withholding, yeah. It's like withholding something. But not in a sense of greediness. Maybe out of fear or out of feeling of not being competent. So I think you have to be careful with people. It's one thing to accuse everybody of being reticent, you know. which is to put everybody back, or to encourage people to come out, you know, in a way that everybody's in a different place. You know, some people have the sword in their hand, some people are kind of hiding in the closet, some people are under the cotons, you know.

[33:26]

But, you know, to help everybody to find their courage. I think that's more appropriate, I think. Thank you, sir. It's very tricky, but sometimes you can say, well, I haven't done that particular thing, but I'm pretty sure I can do it, or something.

[34:50]

But that is different than if he thought he couldn't do it and he said yes. Yes, that's right. Because what I liked about what you said was that you felt you could go to other sources or study or ask other people so that you could come back and do it. So it doesn't really feel like lying in that way. No, I wouldn't, yeah. It's not being totally forthcoming with the truth. But there is a... There is a buffer zone. It's not like it's either right or it's wrong. And we live in this kind of buffer zone between truth and falsehood and right and wrong. And that's the place where you don't know. And so you have to do something, because you don't know exactly.

[36:06]

If you say, I can't, it's not right. And if you say, I can't, it's not right. So it's a kind of co-op. Anyway, most of the jobs, like I try to figure out an hourly rate. I try to figure out an hourly rate that I'm going to get. If I don't know how to do the work, I end up usually taking a boss mission. I have to make things up. I have to put it on a consular mission. Well, sometimes taking the loss is like your wage as an apprentice for that particular job. So it all evens out. I was thinking about my speech yesterday in reading this article about research in psychology where language in psychotherapy is very much in that buffer zone because how you diagnose somebody, the speech you use, has a large impact.

[37:24]

And it was on a group of patients referred to as borderlines, who are usually thought of as being the most difficult, but they tend to be suicidal and needy and difficult in many ways. So it described how clinicians think of them and how they describe them. And then it went to ten people who had that diagnosis and asked for their stories. And the way that they described their own experience was very consistent within the group, but extraordinarily different from how the therapists described them. And their description of their own experience was like, for instance, therapists said they have a very diffuse sense of identity. One week they do this, and the next week they do that. They try on this haircut or those clothes, or they just can't settle on an identity. But the people themselves said, no, I feel like I have a very solid sense of identity as a very inadequate person. And it was just, it was so different.

[38:27]

And I feel so despairing. And no, I don't feel like I merge with you all the time. I feel like you have such rigid boundaries and you keep me out. You know, all of you are having this good life and I just can't get into the human circle. And I was really struck by Both were sort of true, in a way, but one was from the outside and in a very judging and distanced line, because these are people who are giving me a hard time, and the other was from the experience of that person. Well, I think that what we need to do is go get on to the next one, because otherwise we won't get through. Can we wait a few minutes? OK. I would like to go to just a few minutes of not discussing the faults of others.

[39:32]

Could we do that a little bit? How do you point out a fault without breaking the precept? I think that's a kind of good question. How can you point out a fault that you see in somebody without breaking the precept of finding fault? I think that when you first were commenting on that, you also said, well, I think I remember you saying something like, There's a way of objectively saying something you see without any other seed there. Subjective. Right. Or there's a way of already coming up with your own agenda and then describing what you see. And you know, even in the tone of voice, that it's, you know, you're condemning a person. I mean, I kind of identify with that because I feel like I've done that a lot in my life.

[40:40]

You know, that I know I know a certain stirring inside, an emotional stirring inside, and I know that what I'm pointing to, sure, is there, but what's behind it is more than what I am pointing to. And that kind of reminds me, and that was something else that I wanted to point out about this right speech, which seems to me that The problem is not with right speech, the problem is with perception. Or intention. Because I know that I feel like I am very unskillful at times, but usually that unskillfulness comes from an intentionality or a wrong perception. when there's no ego coming into it, you know, it seems like I'm very skillful, that I can just say what it is without harming anybody, without there being any emotional grasping or evasion or whatever.

[41:57]

And so, I don't know that the problem is with speech so much as with, you know, one step before that, which is, what's going on in my mind, what's going on with And the same thing with this, you know, which is... Well, it's always what's going on with me. I mean, it's always what's going on in the mind. But then the way it's expressed is through speech. Okay? Right. You know, teaching people... As soon as we're corrected, we feel criticized. Almost invariably. As soon as we're corrected, we feel criticized. If I'm teaching people to do the service, you know, to do the bells and the chanting and... Later, you know, people come up to me, they're just crushed because I said, not do it this way and not do it that way. But I always try to be as careful as possible, not to make it personal. But no matter how much I try, it's still the same, you know.

[43:01]

Oh, I feel hurt because you said this. to find a way that a person doesn't feel that way. I'm still trying to do that. I'm still trying to find that way. How to promote people without, to promote their good part, their good, their abilities, you know, without saying, no, that's wrong. I don't know if I can do it. I don't like to say this is wrong, but it's just not right. But the phrase that we use around here all the time, and it appeals to this independent objective reality, it usually goes like this, we usually don't build a fire in the middle of the Zimba.

[44:06]

You missed the bell, but we usually ring it at 10. I was listening to what you said. You know, like being able to say something to someone in order to instruct them without their feelings being hurt. And maybe it's just not possible. And maybe it's OK if their feelings are hurt. because it sort of wakes up something inside, you know, and it must mean something a lot of the time if it sort of hits the target and the person, you know, reacts that way. And maybe it's just the inevitable result to pointing something out because you're sort of in this complacent space and you're grooving along and you think everything is cool until somebody points out that maybe it's not, you know? It just shakes you up for a minute. So they'll either get over it or they won't get over it. If you're not being cruel, you know, if you're not being blatantly cruel, and if you're being kind, well then in a way that's their problem, you know.

[45:17]

So, uh... I feel retrieved. But that's also true. I realize that very much. Eric. Eric? can feel the pain that causes their behavior, then your actions will be naturally liberating. well you know this this is a mindfulness practice to learn how to do this and it's a practice and there you know when we go into this I hope you will be recognizing that that it doesn't go perfectly the first time that there are mistakes and they offer you the same opportunity as

[46:56]

Yeah, I do that. But what I usually say to people is, when you sound the bell, you don't hit it. You sound the bell and try and make the sound that's most inspiring to you. And then I leave them alone. But sometimes I say, But I want to read you something about fault-finding. This is from the Sixth Patriarch's Platform Sutra. And this is almost the end of this gatha. And he says, one who treads the path in earnest sees not the mistakes of the world, If we find fault with others, we ourselves are also in the wrong.

[48:15]

When other people are in the wrong, we should ignore it. But my translation of that is, we should look for the cause. I don't think we can ignore when someone does something wrong. But I think we should look for the reason or for the cause. And when we do that, that's stepping back. That stepping back enables us to respond, instead of just reacting to what's happening. As soon as we start to react, then the other person feels that reaction, and then it's backed away. And pretty soon, you get further and further away from each other. So... Then he says, For it is wrong for us to find fault. By getting rid of the habit of fault finding, which is a way I'm added to, we cut off the source of defilement.

[49:24]

When neither hatred nor love disturbs our sleep, our mind, serenely we sleep. By love, it means kindness, without expecting something or without self-interest, metta. And karuna, which is compassion. And mudita, which is sympathetic joy, But it sounded like maybe he was using it in a different way there.

[50:29]

He said, but neither hatred nor love. Yeah, easy in hatred or love, meaning falling into extremes. So it's true, he's using the word love in a way of attachment to either love or attachment to hate. So we think of love in the sense of attachment. But in Buddhism, love is those four aspects because they're free of attachment. They're not self-interest.

[51:29]

There's no self-interest. Speaking of cutting off the source of delusion, when you wake up one moment and find yourself about to correct or qualify, a good suggestion is to pull up an imaginary cushion right there and sit down. And if you can completely forget what it was you were going to say to them, forget all about it, and a half times out of 100, you're going to find that you didn't have to tell them. And that your trust in them, that you placed in them by not correcting them, results in them getting it sooner. I've known that by living in the same cooperative house in college for five years.

[52:30]

I became sort of one of the old people. I think that's very important. But it's not letting go, it's like connecting with the person, somehow connecting, making this connection, and not abandoning, but taking that in.

[53:39]

And there's something about one's attitude that changes. It's very subtle. In time, that attitude, that subtle attitude is very strong and plants something in that person and then grows and at some point they find it within themselves. You don't have to tell them. I know that sounds mysterious. So let's deal with the last two quickly.

[54:59]

Praising self at the expense of others. Of course, in the place where we are. And in practice, we say there is a kind of ladder, but not really, but just as a metaphor. And each one of us is standing on some rung of the ladder, and the person above is helping us, and the person below is being helped by us. And so we just happen to be in the position that we are, in the place we are, and with whatever it is that we have, or at any moment.

[56:10]

So where we are is really no better than any other place, or any worse. But we sometimes get very ambitious because we think that if we're really ambitious, we'll get up to here, and that will be better than where we are. But actually, we don't get there. We don't find a real place. We may get some position, but it's not the real place where we're supposed to be. Because the real place where we're supposed to be is the place where we are. Where we really are. And if we try to scramble to get to some higher place, that higher place will not support us. We will not be supported there because that's not where we're supposed to be. So we have to be very careful. I always use the metaphor of water.

[57:14]

Water, practice should be like water. Water's always looking for the lowest place. and always finds itself in every situation, fills every situation that it's in, takes the shape of whatever situation it's in. And so it's always grounded and always exactly where it's supposed to be. But then it winds up up in the sky in clouds. And then it comes back down. And then it goes back up and it comes back down. So wherever it is, it finds itself. So this is our practice. Wherever you find yourself, that's where your practice is. And that's the space you should fill. Not trying to be someplace else or get something. And if you practice that way, you will inevitably rise to your potential. And you will inevitably

[58:18]

being in the position that is right for you. And you may find yourself at the very top of some place, mountain. That's okay. Or you may find yourself at the bottom next. That's okay too. But to try to get somewhere is What we do is, as we climb up the mountain, we keep throwing the dirt clogs back at the people below us. So we should be helping people up. And actually, Bodhisattva should be promoting everyone. First, before you get to the top of the mountain, everyone else should be arrived. Thank you very much.

[59:26]

But hasn't the Bodhisattva already arrived to the top of the mountain? Let's say that again. Hasn't the Bodhisattva already arrived to the top of the mountain? The Bodhisattva has arrived to the top of the mountain when wherever he is, is the top of the mountain. Or she. Yes. When you don't care where you are, then you've arrived at the top of the mountain. Right. It's kind of like if I find fault with that person.

[60:31]

And then you realize that things are just the way they are. It's like the boat, you know, people in a boat on the river, and they see this other boat coming down the river, and the boat seems to be heading toward them, and they're saying, but the boat just keeps coming. Yay! They're yelling, you know, waving their arms. Nothing happens. The boat just keeps coming. And then, at the last moment, the boat just kind of misses and goes by. They see there's nobody on the boat. Try to find the cause of what happened in your life.

[62:28]

It's impossible. All the causes, you know, you can see some of the causes, you see some of the direct causes, you know, and you can trace some of those, but you cannot, you know, connect all the causes in the world to see how So instead of looking for causes, you can look for causes in the sense of you know that there's some reason why things are happening. You may or may not know the reasons. But if you get hung up on the fault, then you can't really put your attention into how to do something. So in Zen practice, the question why is not a very important question. The important question is, how? As of this moment, how do I do something? Not, gee, why did that happen?

[63:30]

No. I mean, you take that into consideration, but it's not important. What's important is, now what do I do? Now how do I do this? What's the next step? That's the important question, how, not why. As the Sixth Patriarch says, if we keep fighting fault with things and with people, then we ourselves are at fault. And that may be hard to swallow, you know. It's not my fault. It's their damn fault. But that's just dualistic understanding. Non-dualistic understanding, it doesn't matter whose fault it is. Just get on with it. In Ed Brown's new cooking book, he has a wonderful story about how when he was 10 years old, he finally, and everyone was driving him crazy in the kitchen, and so he finally decided to go talk to Sister Hiroshi about it.

[64:48]

So he finally decided to go talk to Sister Hiroshi about it, and he completely uprooted And then, kind of at the end of this whole thing, Suzuki Goshi said to him, yes, well, if you want to see virtue, you have to have a calm mind. Yeah. End of story. Yes. Well, the last one is not defaming the three treasures, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

[66:11]

And what do you do if somebody does? Starts complaining about the three treasures. That's criticizing your practice. the Dalai Lama, I was reading his book on anger, and he said that you can't, that if, he was talking in the context of someone actually ruining property like the Buddha, the altar, or stealing it or something like that, that there's really nothing to steal. So why get mad? What he should know. He had his whole country stolen. And you talked in that context about understanding the causes and conditions that led to the Chinese to do what they did.

[67:21]

So it's based on that understanding. Yeah, I think it's remarkable how he could keep his calm mind. And there must be things that just are upsetting him inside to the extreme. And yet, he keeps taking in all of this hostility and manufactures, out of that raw material, manufactures dharma. So he's taking all the blows and negative energy and converting it into dharma. That's remarkable. And it's easier for most people to do that, if they want to, but it must be so difficult for him, who's had everything destroyed and taken away, and been through so much, and people have been through so much suffering.

[68:29]

Thich Nhat Hanh is like that too, has that same basic or hatred, they're not reacting. I thought of when Greg spoke, what happened not so long ago, or came to light not so long ago at Zen Center, somebody had embezzled $60,000 from Zen Center, and Hillary and I are on the board, and what do you Now what's the appropriate, you know, he returned the money and he said that was a generous estimate of what he'd taken. And that may well be true, it's probably true, but we'll never know absolutely for sure. And, you know, what do you, what do you do with somebody who's responsible to the community and people gave their money thinking that

[69:42]

that would be used for the door. It would kind of go away for a while. You know, I mean, how, of course you care, but how should you care? I mean, I really have been often at a loss about it. I mean, because there's part of me that really doesn't care very much about it at all, really. I care about how it came about and so on, That I care about, but in terms of what he did, I don't care very much. And I wonder, should I care? Should I think about, should I be more aggressive about saying there should be consequences, or should we as a board of Zen Center and so on? I just, I really don't know. Well, I was avid at the time.

[70:44]

And my response was that this whole affair was giving him the opportunity to redefine his life. And if he had been punished and put into jail, what good is that going to do? So, I gave him the opportunity to be honest and to make his own confession. You and I knew all about it because he told me. I didn't tell anybody else. I waited for him to tell people. So, in order for him to do that, he had to summon up his courage to be honest and open about what he'd done. not putting him in under some restriction, but to help him to find his way back into seeing, I mean, he obviously saw what he'd done.

[72:00]

And through his own remorse, to find his way back into practice, which actually he's doing in some way. and help him to reform. So that's my response. The money, it never bothered me one moment, the money. It never bothered me at all. I know that he put it back. So what's there to be worried about as far as the money goes? The only thing you have to be worried about is that he did something dishonest. We don't know anything about anybody's money. I mean, I could have taken money. Somebody else could have taken money. I don't know if that's the point.

[73:02]

I mean, so maybe he took more money. Maybe he took less money. That's not the point. We don't know that he took more money, so why should we think, why should, you know, we linger about, should he, did he take, he was investigated, you know, and they didn't find that he took more money, the investigators, right? So, maybe he did, but why would he take more money and then confess? It doesn't make sense, it doesn't jive. I don't know, I just, it's hard for me to hear people say anything definite about it. I feel like I don't know it. He didn't have to say anything at all. I don't have much care. He didn't have to say anything at all. Well, I'm sorry. I don't know if it's helpful for us to get a debate about it. What I wanted to, what I was trying to bring up was just that it's not, it's not always easy to know what's, you know, so somebody, you know, in some objective sense, you can say, okay, so they abused the Sangha, right?

[74:10]

So, all right, but then, What's an appropriate response to that is a difficult thing to know. Yeah. Well, there are precedents. You know, there are precedents. There's the story of, I can't remember the name of the teacher, but he had a, in China, he had a group, and there was one guy who was always taking things. And the monk started complaining to the abbot, you know, the guy's taking all these things. And they said, why don't you expel him? And the abbot said, I won't expel him. I don't want to expel him. And finally, it turned out that because the abbot would not expel him, and because the abbot took him under his wing, so to speak, it wouldn't let anybody harm him or do anything, that the guy felt so much contrition that he stopped doing this. So, to my way of thinking, this is how the Dharma operates.

[75:16]

You can put him in jail if you want. You can do the civil thing, you know. If you want to do the civil thing, go ahead. It's okay with me, but that's not the way I approach this, and it's not the way I like to approach it. I'm much more concerned about the person than I am about what he did, frankly. It's not that important. $60,000 is just money. The important thing is this poor guy is so misguided and needs help. To me, that's the important thing. But you have to be careful with the help. You know, I've been where Bill's at. You know, I've been drug addicted. I've done all kinds of things in the world. I know where Bill was at when he did that. So I'm not, you know, but I think the question is what's helpful. Is it helpful to bury our Oh, absolutely. The community talked about it.

[76:36]

But in that situation, you can get into a thing where you just dismiss it by saying, poor guy. No. And nobody's dismissing it. I don't think it should be dismissed by saying, oh, the poor guy at all. Well, but a lot of people do say, oh, the poor guy. And so that brings up the side that says, but what about the harm that was done? Yeah. I mean, there should be a middle way. Well, everything has to be taken into consideration. That's right. But the point is that how do you help this person? Not by saying, oh, gee, you know, poor guy. That's not what I mean at all. That's not how you help him. You help him by helping him to re-establish his own honesty. Well, and possibly you help him by being able to see if it's a consequence to his karma. And by appreciating the help that he's getting.

[77:48]

It's 9 out of 5. Yes, okay. Craig? It just occurred to me that maybe a way to show that you care is to audit carefully. We're not going to put temptation in a person's way. But I don't know, I feel a lot of criminal activity is done by people who need something. And the stuff that they're taking has nothing to do with what they need. And to get to the root of what they need, that's what's important. Sounds like what you're saying is you want to invite him to rise to a bigger self.

[78:51]

Right. Exactly. As a matter of fact, he's sitting, he's practicing with Ed Browns, at Ed Brown's place. He's kind of finding his way with our teachers. the board, the, oh really? The ropes and messed everything up and everyone was horrified and they wanted to punish her and they wanted her to have consequences for her actions and blah, blah, blah.

[79:54]

And the monk's reaction to the whole thing was, so what? And it was like this kind, compassionate response to her and they just started doing the painting again. I mean, so conceivably that's what happened here. This guy did this thing. Some people want to punish him. Some people want to help him out, and the people that want to help him out in a way, you know, no matter what all the details is, are, you know, we could have booted the guy out in the street, but the compassionate thing happened, and he was allowed to continue to practice. So what do you do? You just keep him away from the money, you know? Well, I think that there's something deeper, you know? It's not the money. Yeah, I know there's something deeper, but I mean, you know, people say, what do we do about it? I mean, you know, I think the tendency is to want to punish him for it. That's the tendency. I know, and what that does is completely overlook the causes. Maybe make him the treasurer. He was.

[80:56]

We're building more and more new jails, you know, more jails, more jails. And just reacting to people's, to what's happening, instead of looking at what people need. I mean, how can we be so stupid? It's the stupidest thing I ever heard of. To not look for the causes. I mean, there must be some reason why all these people are stealing. They're murdering. They're not just gangsters. There's some reason why this happened. But people don't want to look at that because they're the causes of their... ♪ He's God who will save us all ♪

[81:45]

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