Recently there has been a lot of inquiry by members about ordination, lay ordination and priest ordination. So today I want to talk about lay ordination and priest ordination and what that means for us and what the criteria is for that. So as most of you know, we have two kinds of ordination. One is for lay people and one is for priests.

[01:06]

And when we do ordination ceremony, ceremonies are, the presets are the same. We take, both lay people and priests take 16 presets, which includes the three refuges, refuge in Buddha, refuge in Dharma, refuge in Sangha, and the three pure precepts, and the 16 clear mind precepts. And lay people take the precepts as lay people. Priests take the precepts as priests. And in the ceremony, the lay people receive the small robe, which is called the rakshu.

[02:15]

And the priests shave the head and receive a large robe that goes around the body and wear priest's robes. So what's the difference? And what's the criteria? Lay ordination is a way of acknowledging a person's practice and dedication to living the way, the Buddha Dharma, without leaving home. So it's called Zai Kei Toku Do.

[03:18]

Toku Do means ordination. In most Buddhist countries, they give precepts to lay people. The monks give precepts to lay people, five precepts. But they give the five precepts to lay people, and the lay people usually maybe do a week of practice at the monastery and then receive the precepts, the five precepts, and then they go home and presumably are guided by these five precepts in their life. Our Zen center practice, well, in Japan, something similar happens, except that the lay people, I think, take 16 precepts.

[04:23]

And I receive a robe, the small robe, which we wear around our neck, hanging from the neck. When our teachers brought the practice to America, they encountered lay people who were practicing, who wanted to practice a daily practice, like a monk would be practicing in a monastery, to some extent. So we have this very unusual practice of lay people having a daily practice of zazen and actually taking part in a kind of, I don't say quasi-monastic, but quasi-monastic in the sense of

[05:31]

supporting and participating in a daily practice of zazen and study and formal eating and a self-run practice place. So, it's quite a different practice than you find anywhere else in the world. So, when we receive lay ordination in America, or within our Zen center, America, the lay people sew their own robe, whereas in other countries, some monks do that, But it's a special practice. It's a special practice for the monks to sew their own robes.

[06:39]

But here, everyone, we have this practice of sewing our own robe before we have any kind of ordination. So it's a very deep commitment that lay people have to their practice here. When a person wants to sew a robe and then receive lay ordination, I feel that they should have some kind of relationship with myself and with the Sangha and have a participatory relationship over a period of several years so that people know each other, and the person who's having the ordination has some understanding of, not just understanding of Buddhism, but has been willing to participate in actual practice over a period of time, which is not just sporadic,

[08:00]

So when a person has several years, we used to say three years of practice before receiving, three years of steady practice as a layperson before receiving lay ordination. Now I say two years. Sometimes after one year, depending on if it's encouraging for a person. Some people will be practicing for three years and the practice doesn't seem so strong. Other people will be practicing for a short period of time but their practice is so strong that you feel encouraged by that and so sometimes I feel that's okay for them to soak. So we have a standard, but there's a lot of flexibility.

[09:13]

But there has to be some, there has to be a feeling that the person really has a practice, a sincere practice. And this is a confirmation, the lay ordination is a confirmation of their sincerity. and their dedication and their desire to be part of Buddha's family in a formal way. So anyone can practice. come and practice forever without having any kind of ordination. And people do. There are people that practice for 20 years and never have any kind of ordination. And it's no problem. The main thing is one's practice. But when one has the ordination and the confirmation, there's a kind of connection that's

[10:24]

established or confirmed. That's quite wonderful. So, lay ordination is not something that sets you apart from people, but it's something that helps to include and encourage people. In some sense, each one of us has an individual robe, but it's all one robe which each one of us is wearing. And even, I remember Chino Sensei used to say, some people have a robe and some people don't have a robe, but the robe that you have covers everyone.

[11:32]

we're all sitting under one big robe, whether we acknowledge it or not. So sometimes people ask me, and I see their sincerity, and I really respect the sincerity of people who ask for ordination, lay ordination. And I'm very happy that they do ask. And I'll say, wait another year. Wait and become more involved with the Sangha. And so I can get to know you better. So that when that happens, it's a real relationship. And it feels, there's some feeling that has to settle. Actually, we have various criteria for like time and so forth, but it's the feeling of connection here that I have to feel so that I can say, okay.

[12:42]

For me, that's the main thing is my gut feeling about someone's practice and when the time is right. So lay ordination is an actual ordination. It's not like something perfunctory or some lower class, something below priest practice. And it's acknowledgment your commitment while you are still living at home so that you can pursue your activity in the world without feeling obligated to leave that activity.

[13:58]

You can have a family, go to school, work, travel, live your life in an ordinary way as a lay ordained person. If you have priest ordination, there is a deeper commitment. And you take on a limitation in your life of a deeper commitment. One has to be settled in their life. I would hesitate to ordain a person as a priest who is having a lot of problems, a lot of personal problems, or interpersonal problems, or family problems, or some worldly problems that focus them and grab their attention.

[15:04]

so much. To have priest ordination, one should be fairly free of obligations. The obligations that the person has should be well in hand, so that they don't take over or cause a problem. Because a priest's focus is on the Dharma, on the practice and I'm helping the practice to work. So the focus is not out in the world so much, except for a person who has been practicing for a long time, a priest who's been practicing for a long time, to go out in the world and do something is a very good thing. The person, because they've had years of practice as a priest, hopefully they don't lose it. when they go out in the world. And there are different stages, actually, that a priest can practice with that haven't been developed.

[16:15]

They're all potential, mostly potential, but are possibilities. But since, in our young sangha of about 35 years, Mostly the priests have been practicing in the practice places, keeping the practice intact, providing leadership. Lay people also provide leadership. And sometimes the line is very fine as to, you know, whether a priest or a lay person's practice is the same or different. Some lay people, people who are not priests, practice as priests. And some people who are priests practice as lay people.

[17:19]

But we expect something, you know, of a priest. There's an expectation. When someone is ordained as a priest, there's an expectation. Because a priest... Shukke Tokudo is called leaving worldly life. But our priests don't exactly leave worldly life. But the focus is not on worldly life. The focus is on practice life, even though the priest will have a family and some possessions different than a monk in other countries. In other countries, a monk has no sex life, no possessions and

[18:28]

no money to speak of. Of course, when they come to America, they have to adapt themselves. That's interesting to watch the process of monks coming from a different country and slowly having to adapt themselves. I see the Thai monks in the bank, you know, delivering. So, I remember Suzuki Roshi talking about The monk from India, who had to go back because of the eating rules in India and the clothing rules in India and so forth, he couldn't live in any other country. So, there's always this process of adaptation. Adaptation to the country and different 20th century living and the modern age.

[19:37]

So we always have to keep adapting. And at this time, at this point of time, there's not a lot of support for celibate monk practice in the world. I mean, the Catholic Church, you know, is having this big problem with priests, with allowing women to be priests and allowing monks to be non-celibate. So, I think in our Zen practice in America, we haven't had much obstacle to development. because we don't have any history. Our history is behind us, not in front of us.

[20:40]

So history is always behind us, but the expectation is not there, that is there in other traditions. It's not so strong. So we have people not watching us, saying you shouldn't do this. They're watching to see what we do, actually. What are they going to do? How are they going to do this? That's an interesting position. So we have to be very careful. And there have been a lot of mistakes made. And Zen Center, San Francisco Zen Center, just completed an ethics statement, a booklet, which has taken us about five years to develop. But anyway, since our teachers from Japan were family people and ran family temples, as well as being monastic, our practice has kind of woven these threads together.

[21:57]

And we're still in the process of development. There is no fixed way, you know, that we have. So, even though it may look fixed, it's in the process of development. So, we have priests with families, but for a priest, the first consideration has to be the practice. This is very difficult for a priest's family, to say the first consideration is the practice. But the priest's family is also the practice. You can't separate the family from the practice. And for a layperson, you can't separate the family from the practice. You can't separate your work from the practice. Practice is continuous practice.

[23:01]

If you engage in Zen practice, it's 24-hour practice. A layperson has a lot of leeway in how to practice. A priest has a much more narrow way to practice. So there's a limitation on a priest's practice. A priest is more visible as a practitioner. You shave the head, you wear the robe, and people may think, oh, that's a great thing to do, you know, as if the priest is up on a pedestal. But actually, it's very difficult to be an example and be a target for criticism. If you do something wrong, it will be pointed out to you. So the process of being a priest in our tradition, we usually wait a long time before we ordain someone as a priest.

[24:26]

Every practice place has a different way, you know, because of the circumstances of the place. If you are, say, San Francisco Zen Center, which is mostly, or largely, a residential kind of practice, if you have that kind of practice, then a person can develop their practice very quickly. because it's daily practice within the monastic tradition, so to speak. And that person could become a priest more quickly because of the training. Here in Berkeley, the training is slower because people live at home. They have a lot of different things to take care of. And so when we ordain somebody as a priest, when I ordain somebody as a priest, it's usually someone who has a lot of experience.

[25:39]

Because when someone is ordained as a priest and people look at that person, they say, well, this is somebody must have some ability. But traditionally, when monks are ordained, they don't have any ability at all. They're just novices. No ability. Just young novices. And they're given respect as novices. But in this situation, when a person is ordained, people look up to them as knowledgeable people and teachers and, you know, you can ask them questions and you respect them. So, a person who has priest ordination in this particular place is someone who is very devoted to the practice and everybody knows that person.

[26:54]

If I ordained a novice here, it would just be very strange, because it wouldn't be the same kind of training. The person wouldn't have the training. We could ordain somebody as a novice, and then bring them up as a child, with the Saga as the parent, and that person as a child. That's possible. It would be interesting, actually. But not everyone who has been practicing for 20 years should be a priest or needs to be a priest. But the priest is someone who has been brought up in the Sangha to the point where they're actually practicing as a priest, and it would really be a help to the Sangha. It's not a personal thing so much.

[27:59]

It's not like a personal aggrandizement or some special position. That person devotes their life to the Sangha and to their own development. So, if you want to become a priest, you have to accept the limitations of a priest. You can't just do anything you want anymore. And sometimes people want to be priests, but they're still doing what they want. And I say, you're not ready yet. But I work with those people. Whether they become a priest or not, I continue to work with them as if they were. Until there's some place where I know that it's right.

[29:04]

At some point I know that it's right. And it's when there's no longer any... It's different with each person. Very different with each person. But basically, when a person has nothing else to do, no other ambitions, nothing else is going to pull them off someplace, and a person can say that, and even feel that that's true, but you know that it's still a possibility. So I still wait. I think I'm a little tougher than most people when they ordain people. Although I've made mistakes. And so I'm very careful.

[30:05]

Maybe too careful. Sometimes a person will feel that being a priest gives them license to go off and do what they want and attract attention to themselves. But a priest should be the servant of the Sangha. Throughout history, people pay very great respect to priests, and they feed them to monks. And they don't have to work, they don't have to grow crops, they don't have to carry money, People feed them, but they have to do their job. And their job is to let go of being self-centered. That's the job of a priest, is to let go of self.

[31:12]

And when they do that, and people see they're really working hard at developing that, they feed them. That's what it's about. And because the priest is no longer self-centered, they show that by helping everyone. They no longer have their own personal life. They have a personal life, but it's... That person is available to respond to whatever needs to be done. So then we have another ordination which is called Dharma Transmission, which is for priests.

[32:27]

Although in the Rinzai school, some recently Rinzai teachers have been giving Dharma Transmission to lay people. But in our school, Dharma Transmission is for, we give it to priests as a completion of their priest training. And it's when you feel the person is capable of being independent and you trust that person to teach dharma or be available to be an abbot of a practice place It's an acknowledgment of trusting that independently they will continue to carry the Dharma in a way that you know is correct and will not backslide, even though that happens.

[33:42]

And So when Dharma transmission is given, usually the person goes away someplace. That's how the Dharma is spread out. That's more rare, to give Dharma transmission. In Japan, most teachers would give Dharma transmission to one person, and often on their deathbed. In America, it's not the same. Because in America, our practice is just starting. And we need people to... If we don't give Dharma transmission to people, the practice has more chance to atrophy. So, to acknowledge and to spread the Dharma, I've already given Dharma transmission to eight people.

[34:50]

and we'll give some more," which is very unusual. In China they did this when they were propagating the Dharma with the school. But often teachers would just wait until they had the perfect student as a successor and give Dharma transmissions as one person, and often on their deathbed. Sometimes I feel like I'm glutting the market. But it's OK. I think it's good. This should be happening. So I feel that everyone should be given ordination according to what is correct for them. We should respect each other's place or ordination, whatever that is.

[36:06]

Lay ordination and priest ordination are just two sides of ordination. So we respect lay ordination and we respect priest ordination. Some people say, like to divide it. They say, well, we should only have lay people. And some people say, we should only have priests. Some people say, the Sangha is just priests. And then there are lay people. And some people say, well, the Sangha should just be lay people, and what do we need these priests for? But my feeling is We should have priests, we should have lay people, and equally. And the priests should appreciate the lay people, the lay people should appreciate the priests, and we should all feel settled in where we are. And if we honor the time of ordination that each one of us has, and

[37:19]

do our best to develop that, our character from that place, then that will be honored. I always say when I go do a practice period, when I leave the practice period at Tassajara, Everyone is a monk. There are lay people and there are priests. But at that time, when the people are doing, when the students are doing the practice period, everyone is a monk. They all have the same status. And I say that no matter what your position is, whether you're general labor or the abbot, If you act from your position totally, if you totally take on your position and manifest yourself in that position wholeheartedly, the position of general labor is no different than the position of Abbott.

[38:37]

It's just different functions. And you are running the monastery from the position of general labor. or from dishwasher or from work leader or whatever. So everyone is turning to practice and we're all turning to practice equally if we are totally involved from where we are. If we appreciate the small piece of turf that we're standing on and act from that totally from that small piece of turf, where each one of us is turning the Dharma and turning the practice equally. So whatever position we have, the functions may be different, but the quality is exactly the same. If we understand that, then we won't be envious of other people's positions.

[39:50]

And we'll be able to settle wherever we are, knowing that we're the boss wherever we are. Some people strive hard for position. But when they get to the position, they find that the same person they were before. So it doesn't really matter. So, You might have some questions about this. Yes? Why do priests have more problems with celibacy than monks?

[41:00]

I don't think they do. You're talking about Catholic priests. Oh, Catholic priests. It just beats me. I would say this. I would say this. There are some people who don't have much problem with it. And there are some people who have a lot of problem with it. Some of them are priests and some of them are monks. And some of them are lay people. Probably the most difficult thing that everyone has problems with is sex, wife. Everyone has to figure it out. I'm not sure what your question is.

[42:04]

Well, yes, I think that may be it. By monk you mean cloistered people. What did you mean? Cloistered. Cloistered. Yeah. Cloistered people, their sex lives are not so broadcast. I mean, you don't know much about them. You don't know much about them. But I think that in the monasteries there's a lot of homosexuality. And since the sexes are separated, you know, there is a lot of that that goes on. And I think the priests are more, that's right, they're more available to the opposite sex or to the same sex. Actually, you know, a lot of the priests' sexual indiscretions have taken place with same sex little boys and stuff like that. Well, yes.

[43:21]

Because priest ordination is so rare. But it's not necessary. I never did have lay ordination myself. I just wondered if you could say something about the process of sewing. How do you see that as a practice? The process of sewing the Raksu, well, you know, we take one... Originally, Pamsula was the name of the process.

[44:25]

What was it? Pamsula, which means getting old pieces of cloth from the graveyards and garbage heaps. And this is what the monks would do. And then they would cut them up and sew them together and dye it, dye that rope. But now, you know, we just go down to the store and buy a piece and cut it up. But everything is made that way, if you think about it. Everything is made out of it. We get a piece of something, and then we cut it up, and then we make our design, whatever it is. So it's really the same thing. The only difference is that we don't go to the garbage heap. But you could. It's possible. You can do that.

[45:29]

You know, Japanese, our tradition comes from the Japanese, and Japanese, anything they sew is so beautiful, you know, and so well done. They have such sophisticated techniques that we happen to have, we inherited this, our sophisticated techniques. And so sewing the robe is, you know, It has to be cut out just right, the pieces have to be cut out just right, and sewn with a certain stitch that leaves a little knob, and these little knobs all around, and they're very close together. And each time you take a stitch, you say, namu kie butsu, which means taking refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in Buddha with each stitch. So people sit around together sewing and talking to each other. So that's not so good.

[46:37]

They should just take a stitch and say, Namu kie butsu, instead of talking to each other. And so they should be all sitting very quietly. Namu kie butsu to themselves, instead of saying. And yesterday, you know, Can I say something about the song, too? It's an incredible way of reading your own mind, because no two raucouses are ever the same. I'm a sewing teacher, and when you take a breath, there is a way that you're not sure after a while if the thread moved you or your mind. see your mind right there. So sometimes the stitches go a little crazy, and sometimes the stitches are tight, and sometimes they're more relaxed. And you actually get to meet who you are at a very deep level, deeper than you're thinking. And in the center of the Rakushu, there's like five little panels that go across.

[47:43]

And one in the middle, you might say, is the center where your heart is. And then all the folds go out from your heart. I mean, you can keep going on. There's a lot that has to do with this simple piece of cloth that when you're done, there's nothing left of you. It's a very precious way of meeting your spirit without thinking or without words. It's very soothing. Thank you. When you finish The Rock Zoo, you see yourself mirrored in your work. And you may not like it. Or you may like it. Yeah, that's right.

[48:56]

Then you begin to realize what perfection is. Can you start over? Next time. Yes? When a priest leaves home, is that the same as letting go of self-centered orientation? Well, that's the first step. You know, we say, leave home without leaving home. One leaves home without leaving home. To leave home means to leave, to not have any place to stand, any special place to stand. It doesn't mean that you have to abandon, you know, but it means renunciation, which is to find yourself wherever you are without any attachments.

[50:13]

But attachment, you know, we have to have attachments. We don't live in this world without attachments. But we have to find non-attachment within our attachments. And we have to leave home without going someplace. So thank you very much.

[51:01]

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