Well, it's nice to be back sitting zazen again. I haven't been feeling so good the last couple of days. I think it's probably due to the excesses of the holidays. I was in Pasadena last week visiting my in-laws and they always have martinis for dinner, before dinner. Food that I'm not used to eating. What I want to talk about today is, of course, our practice.

[01:15]

How we can practice more, with better understanding of our practice, and how we can focus on our practice. And what are we doing anyway? There's a Japanese monk who has been practicing at Zen Center for a while. He's at Tassajara now. Akiba Sensei. He was the assistant ino at Eheji for about seven years. And he was also a shuso at Eheji, and a very well-practiced monk who knows quite a bit about monastic side of practice.

[02:24]

And he's been here several times, but mostly to visit with me. and I've been getting to know him pretty well. He doesn't speak English very well. I've been wanting him to come and speak to us, but it's difficult. But I think sometime in the spring I can get him to do that. When he was here, he said that he felt that the kind of practice that we have at this place is Although he didn't know Suzuki Roshi, he felt that this is what Suzuki Roshi very much wanted, the way that he very much wanted us to practice, by bringing the monastic side and the secular side together in some way that works. He said this kind of practice could be the model for Japanese people.

[03:41]

And he was very serious. In Japan, you know, the monastic side and the secular side have always been separated. And Suzuki Roshi was a kind of unusual priest in that when he came to America he felt that the monastic side and the secular side should come together in some way and that we should create some way of life, way of practice life that works for us, which is a kind of combination of the two. So what we've been trying to do here is to create a way of life that is based on right practice.

[04:54]

So on the one side, we have a kind of monastic way, which is sitting zazen, daily zazen, and seshing, and studying Buddhism. And on the other hand, on the other side, to live an individual lifestyle. and for those two sides to create a balance. And that balance, I guess we could call way of life or lifestyle. And I think that that way of life

[06:08]

is where the two meet. So our way of life may not look anything like Japanese Zen practice to someone who is oriented in a certain way. They may not see that. If we know how to do it correctly, it will be obvious. And I was very much encouraged by Akiba Sensei. I think that people, Japanese people, are looking for some way of practice in this modern world. you know, the Japanese left Buddhism, kind of, and were very much impressed by American standards and American standard of living, and pretty much abandoned their religious roots.

[07:33]

And now they're kind of swimming around in prosperity, and need to find their way again, need to come back to some kind of fundamental root and are beginning to be interested in Buddhism again and in Zen. So we have to discover some way to create a a way of life which includes our independent way of living and monastic practice, monastic style or element of practice, maybe element. If the world is our monastery, then how do we live in that monastery?

[08:43]

That's a monastic practice. We tend to think of monastic practice as something that we do in some limited space, which it is. That's a traditional concept. We also need to expand that concept to wherever we are. So the world is our monastery. We have to understand that. So how do we practice in that monastery called the world? and what is right activity. So some combination or some, I don't like to use the word combination, but some merging

[10:05]

fundamental practice, fundamental activity which is zazen and a fundamental understanding of our life and our daily activity in our monastic world our world monastery so that we carry our zendo wherever we go. This is our zendo, but our house is also our zendo, and the place that we work is also our zendo, the place where we study. The BART station is our zendo. How do you practice? zazen in the bath station without having to cross your legs?

[11:23]

How do you practice zazen when you're pouring concrete or when you're sitting at a desk? reading papers, or having a conversation with your family, or changing the baby's diapers. So, we spend a lot of time in the big monastery, but in order to, what I mean is, we have plenty of time that we spend in our ordinary life.

[12:48]

In order to balance that, we need to sit zazen. And how we absorb, how we understand zazen is not intellectually. We understand zazen through absorption. In other words, we get it through all the pores of our skin. And there's only one way to get it, and that's through sitting zazen. So for each one of us, it's really necessary to sit zazen. That's the fundamental practice, sitting with our legs crossed. And we each have to, each one of us has to determine how to do it.

[14:08]

Because every one of our lifestyles is different. So it makes it a very different, this is the point where, that I think most societies are not willing to deal with. is having the patience and determination to give yourself a little trouble to take the time to actually engage in zazen. because it means that you have to limit your activity, other activities. You have to take into consideration what's necessary for you to sustain your life and what things you're willing to take responsibility for and take responsibility for practicing zazen as well.

[15:23]

If you are too captivated by the events of the world, I mean, if you're too caught by desire in the world, then you don't have time to practice zazen. You have to have determination to take that practice seriously. And if we don't have a defined, if we don't define our zazen practice as part of our life, then we just get carried off by various interesting things. Say, well, I don't have time to sit zazen because there are so many interesting things in the world. You have to make a choice.

[16:29]

Definitely have to make a choice. Most practices, religious practices that are integrated with a person's life usually limit that person's ability or desire to engage in a lot of different interesting things in the world. But it's necessary. You have to decide what it is that's really important to you. So practice is always based on our decision.

[17:34]

Once we make a decision to practice seriously, it becomes much easier. But before we make a decision, we have a lot of trouble. Indecisiveness is a big problem for us. But once we decide something, then we can go forward with it. And then things become clear to us. So a lot of the problems that we have are problems which come up through our indecisiveness. We get to a certain point and then we're not sure. And then we have to start all over again somehow.

[18:40]

So it's pretty easy to get people to live their lives in the world, because there you are. But it's not so easy to get everybody to sit Zazen in a real way. So my emphasis is always on sitting Zazen, encouraging you to sit Zazen. I think that you would benefit by sitting, by attending Saturday morning schedule. I want to encourage you to sit the Saturday morning schedule. When you sit the Saturday morning schedule, then it becomes easier for you to sit Sashim. and you begin to get a better understanding of zazen and participation in working together and eating together, eating with Oryoki, learning how to, learning our practice through our practice activity, learning the meaning of practice through

[20:26]

the formal activity of practice. It's very important. Our practice is very simple. Simple, yet careful. And the only way we really learn it is, as I say, through our pores. through the activity itself, through doing it over and over again. So I'm encouraging you to think about that. I know that we can't all do that, and I know the difficulties that are involved in taking time to do that.

[21:35]

But nevertheless, I still want to encourage everyone to do that, if you can. One thing that I like about our practice is here, is that we're all free to come and go. And what we do is up to us, up to you. And we don't have so much of an institutional feeling. There is an advantage to an institutional feeling. The advantage to an institutional feeling is that people take it seriously.

[22:40]

That's the advantage. The advantage of not having an institutional feeling is that you feel more comfortable and a little more natural. more individual. You feel your individuality more. And that's very nice. It feels more like being at home. You feel more at home where we don't have such an institutional feeling. So the responsibility is really yours. If we don't want to have an institutional feeling, then the responsibility is really yours.

[23:43]

If we need to be more herded together, you know, and told what to do, I don't like that so much. I don't want to have to make anybody do anything. So, you have a nice comfortable feeling. But it's really, the responsibility is yours. Because I think none of us wants to have an institution. But institutions grow up for a reason. And if the structure isn't strong enough, then you have to have an institution.

[24:51]

Zen practice, you know, you go through easy times and difficult times. And we're always trying to keep the balance and keep our composure, whether it's easy or difficult. And when it gets difficult, when it's easy, it's easy to be around. But when it gets difficult, it's hard to be around. And if there's no fence, then you just wander away when it's hard. So what's going to keep you at the center of practice when things get difficult? What's going to keep you there? That's an important question. So our practice comes through our decision to practice, through our responsibility to ourself. And so our decision is

[26:04]

I'm going to practice no matter what happens. If good things happen, that's nice. If bad things happen, that's okay, too. But my attention, my focus is on practice. It's like we hold on when it starts shaking, you know, we hold on for dear life. If we don't have good roots, then we get thrown off. And maybe we come back in the springtime and things are nice. But we have to grow good, strong roots. And strong root comes first from our decision. And that if we know how to stay with our decision, then we have the fundamental basic practice.

[27:18]

Fundamental key to practice is to stay with our decision. And if you know how to sit zazen, that's what it's all about. You cross your legs and you stay with your decision. Good things happen sometimes, bad things happen sometimes, various things happen, but we stay with our decision. And so we always know where we are and who we are. And this way we build up our integrity. And after some period of time, you begin to appreciate the fact that although zazen was hard, sometimes it was easy, but those hard times were hard.

[28:24]

But you stayed there. You continued. And so you begin to feel very good about yourself. and begin to feel some fundamental confidence in yourself. and you learn how to weather the storms of your life with a calm mind. The other day, my son Daniel

[29:37]

was having a fit. He wanted something. I can't remember what he wanted. But he's just past two. And usually he's very good. But sometimes he's very happy most of the time. But sometimes he'll have a fit which will last anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour of no. or something like that. And everybody wants him to stop, you know, it's just too much. When is this kid going to stop? So you try to appease him with various things. Have some raisins. Raisins is his most number one priority. Or books or something that he likes. You say, no raisins. notebooks, no nothing.

[30:39]

I'm mad and I'm going to stay mad because I feel justified. And actually, I said, I'm not going to try to bribe this kid because I appreciate his integrity. He's building up his integrity. He may be building up his stubbornness too. But integrity, stubbornness is part of integrity. Suzuki Roshi used to say that in Zen practice we always appreciate stubbornness because there's some character behind it. So I try to recognize his integrity and not to damage it.

[31:50]

So I have to figure out some way to deal with it on my own. I don't want to bribe him or make him lose his integrity in some way that he gives that up. But eventually he stops and there's some reconciliation and some compromise. But compromise, he can compromise without losing integrity. point is how do we compromise without losing integrity. So this is actually what our zazen is about, among other things.

[33:05]

how to maintain our integrity, to know what our decisions are, and to be able to accept our life in this world, whichever way it goes. As the old Zen master says, every day is a good day. How is that?

[34:15]

How do we understand that? Do you have a question? Yes. I have a question about the relationship between decision and limits. And it seemed on the one hand like you were saying that our decision had to come from inside so that we could set our own limits and that you didn't want to set our limits. But on the other hand it seems like the reason we have form is to set some limits for us. And that's kind of like saying, well, you want to let your kid do his thing, but you maybe won't let him do it on the living room floor, or scream right in your ear.

[35:18]

Anyway, it wasn't clear to me exactly where you stood on limits and decisions, or where you thought they came from. Well, they come from the circumstances. I mean, our decisions. First we have to look at all the circumstances, I mean all of the elements that are involved in each situation. But I thought you said that your decision, your inner decision is what carried you through any situation. Yeah, inner decision plus circumstances. But we see, we're not isolated. inner decision does carry you through, but we have to always be aware of our circumstances and aware of our surroundings, because those are also inner.

[36:24]

And we say, oh, this is the outer, and the inner is someplace in here, somewhere, wherever we can locate it. But all this that's around us is also us. So wherever we go, the circumstances are constantly changing. As far as we can see and feel and so forth, that's our world. We can think about the world over some distance, but our actual world is this world where we are. Right now it's this room. When we go out, it's some other set of circumstances. That's us. I am this person plus this set of circumstances. And through awareness of this person and this set of circumstances as one environment or one world, I have to find my way, my balance.

[37:36]

and harmony with that set of circumstances. So, it's always different. There's no formula for how to do it. So, zazen is to be able to find the center of that environment, the center of yourself, which includes all of that. And it's always changing. There's no moment when it's not changing. Which you know, if you sit zazen, you know, this is the most immovable circumstance that you'll get into. And it's changing constantly. That's why your legs hurt. because it's changing all the time.

[38:38]

And you have to be able to allow that change to go, to happen, and not cling to anything. So, circumstances are moving, you're moving with circumstances. And you and circumstances are moving together. And there's really no you outside of the circumstances, and there's no circumstances outside of you. Outside and inside, what is it? We can talk about outside and inside, but when we just forget ourself and completely into interactivity, into our environment. That's called dropping, dropping it.

[39:43]

And you and circumstances are one thing. So on the one hand, you move with circumstances, and on the other hand, you make decisions. You can decide not to do something or you can decide to do something. So one, there are two sides of non-discrimination. One side of non-discrimination is to just go with things. The other side of non-discrimination is to make decisions. So we have to know how to discriminate and how to non-discriminate. mostly we're caught by discrimination. So that's why we put so much emphasis on non-discrimination, because mostly we're caught by what we like and what we don't like, and what we want and what we don't want.

[40:53]

Mostly we're caught by that. That's why, you know, in Zen practice, It's, let me say, you wash the dishes, and you paint the side of the house. And the person says, they're always asking me to wash the dishes, or they're always asking me to paint the side of the house. And I'd like to cook. But we're always giving you a problem with your discriminating mind. And so it's different than some other kind of practice. It really makes a difference. That's why I want you all to come to work meeting. So they give you something you don't like to do. And in our Zazen, it's right there in Zazen.

[42:07]

Oh, I don't like this. When will this be over? That's discriminating mind. When you learn not to accept the situation, then you have non-discriminating mind. But it's not easy. Non-discriminating mind is a term meaning all-inclusive mind, that accepts everything. But within all-inclusive mind, we still have to make decisions. So it's very difficult. And to learn that, we need to practice. We learn the discrimination of non-discrimination. It's called koan. the big koan of our life.

[43:09]

We're always working with it. Sometimes called Genjo Koan. It springs up moment after moment. And its face is always different. Looks like different things, but it's the same animal. just that every moment it appears as different circumstances. I don't know if I dealt with your question or not. I'm very involved in this institutional zen that you've been talking about and it's been massive chaos And I guess the thing I want to say right now is that it's so easy in the midst of all the complications of an elaborate organization, and the structures with which you come together, to begin the essential essence of practice.

[44:24]

And I think that's happened to Zint and I very badly. And here, it's probably not like that. But I think everybody must remember that you can't just have a functioning organization. You can't just spend your time worrying about board meetings. And the essential religious renewal of practice, of zazen, I think is so important and I'm so aware of it since then. Yeah, we have to continue to renew our practice. And it's very precious, I think, to be able to retain our individual lives, life's practices, and at the same time to merge with the formal side of practice. Just don't forget the essence.

[45:26]

Don't forget why you're doing it. Right. I mean, you can't just spend a day going to meetings all the time. It's just what happens, it's infinite now. some people are so completely engrossed in the various emotional states associated with it that they've forgotten all about practice. And I feel it's very important to remember that absolute core of practice, that we love it, forget the essential meaning. And it's so easy to do that, it's so easy to get caught up in organizations. I had a question related to this, going back to the, you know, we're still in the same place, discrimination and the problem of what is discrimination and what is non-discrimination. I think maybe I haven't understood, I'm sure I haven't understood the root, the sense of that.

[46:30]

I know that one of my own problems when I have read about trying not to question everything, not to complain about this or that, but I am very Western, and I think I have a feeling that if one has a... it depends on the structure one's in, but one can be taken advantage of really in a way that What I feel personally is an inclination to give up autonomy and say, giving it up and being, giving it up to the wrong person, to the wrong structure. Because there is injustice in some situations, I think.

[47:35]

So I'm kind of, I'm wary. The point is that you should complain, and you should question, and you should also do it. That's the difference. There's a difference, you know. To question it is to investigate, right? So someone says, well, you wash the dishes, please. Well, I don't like to wash the dishes. Why are they asking me to wash the dishes when I don't like washing dishes? So that's an investigation. That's fine. Actually, to be provoked to investigate is what it's about.

[48:43]

So sometimes, traditionally in Zen practice, you're usually given some very provocative thing to do. If you look at, as an example, Milarepa, who was a Tibetan, not really a Zen student, strictly speaking, his teacher said, take these stones and build a tower. So he built a tower and he teaches it, please take it down. It's not right. So then he said, please build another tower. So he did that about three or four times, you know, until finally Milarepa got what was going on. That's a kind of classical example But teachers should not exploit students.

[49:53]

So you have to feel that you trust the situation. And usually you can trust the situation if you see that the teacher doesn't have anything. then what's there to gain? But I think that in our particular practice, we don't do so much. If a person discriminates too much, then we try to help that person to see what they're person doesn't discriminate enough, then we try to help that person to see what they're doing.

[50:55]

That's really what it's about. You can talk to a person and say, you do this and that and that and that. That doesn't do much good. You have to give the person some problem so they can see themselves mirrored in the problem. That's the point. You see yourself mirrored in the problem. If you don't have a problem, If you look at yourself in the mirror, you say, well this is okay, no problem. But if you look at yourself in the mirror, you say, that's not me, this is me. You have some big problem. You may not be able to wash dishes because you have eczema on your hands or something. That's different. But we're talking about ego. So the teacher also has ego, and he should help the teacher with the teacher's problem. Good sangha helps the teacher with the teacher's problem.

[52:00]

They feel very grateful to the teacher for helping them with their problem, and then they in turn, out of gratitude, help the teacher with his problem or her problem. So the students need to assess what the teacher's problem is. Because the teacher won't always come out with it. Just like everybody else. You know, you have this problem. And somehow, but they have to be skillful enough not to just say, you have this problem, but to give the teacher a problem that is a mirror for the teacher. Everybody goes away. She said, God, why is everybody going away? I thought I was doing pretty good. You know, as baker, she said, well, just don't pay him. Don't feed him.

[53:05]

That was a long time ago. Anyway, teachers should be grateful for the students as a mirror. And if the teacher is not, then the teacher is a bigger problem. You were saying at the beginning about these two sides of practice that Suzuki Roshi tried to bring together. And it makes a lot of sense that you need to emphasize the formal side since everybody is on the other side all the time. Could you say anything about how you see the bridge between the two?

[54:11]

Because that's been really puzzling me for a long time. We see all kinds of examples of people who get very good at the one side and it doesn't Yeah, that's what happened to me. I was doing everything very, very well, you know, on the practice, so-called formal side. But I wasn't doing anything so well on the other side. And Suzuki Roshi came over and said, No good. So I had to think about the things that I was doing that I wasn't doing so well on the other side, even if I thought I was.

[55:15]

So we all have to have somebody to come over and complain about our life, what we're doing. Not me. Don't ask me to do it. But... Why not? Your wife can complain to you. My wife always keeps me on my toes. She never accepts anything that's wrong. She will not let me get away with anything. And it's very disconcerting to me. God, why doesn't she let up sometimes? But, you know, she's just responding to what I think I am. I'm supposed to be this Zen priest, you know, so she's not letting me go. She's not letting me get off the hook that I put myself on.

[56:22]

And so, she's my most severe critic. Just has to be. How can it be otherwise? How can she maintain her integrity otherwise? So, it's really all my fault. I'm setting myself up in a certain way, and she's responding. So, even though I don't always like it, I must say I appreciate it. So we have to keep, to some extent, be a mirror for each other. And if you're just practicing in an isolated way, then it's hard to see. So we just have to reflect back to each other so that we can always know where we're at.

[57:31]

So I don't like to think of a bridge because a bridge means that there are two sides. I'd rather that we close the gap so we didn't need to think about a bridge. Anyway, we should think about it more. I'll think about it more, like you said.

[58:01]

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