Well, tonight, if you're sitting way in the back, you may not be able to hear me. So I'll leave it up to you. Tonight I'm a little bit undecided about which stories to talk about. And one inclination I have is to, you know, last time I talked about that controversial first story about Nanda and the Buddha.

[01:04]

and the kind of sexist attitude that it presented. And so my temptation is to redeem Dogen. Because, actually, Dogen felt equally that men and women were equal in practice, and there was nothing that men could do, in practice, that women couldn't do. Do you believe that? Some do and some don't. So maybe while this is still warm, I'll talk about that, even though I was going to talk about something else. Have you ever read Raizai Tokuzui?

[02:10]

Dogen's fascicle, Raizai Tokuzui, which means making a vow and attaining the marrow. You know that fascicle? Well, in this fascicle, Dogen talks about the equality of men and women. And as you know, in Buddhist, according to the Vinaya, a Buddhist nun is supposed to always make a prostration to a monk, no matter how new that monk is. Even if somebody's been ordained for one day, The nun who has been practicing for 25 years makes a vow of prostration to the monk, but the monk doesn't have to make a prostration to the nun. This is a well-known fact.

[03:15]

But Dogen doesn't go by that standard at all. So first of all, In this Chiji Shingi that I gave you, I'll read you this little story on page 14. number 21 on page 14. Zen master Guanzi Jixiang of Kung Canyon, after attaining realization that Linji's community left Linji and wandered on.

[04:30]

Linji is Rinzai, master Rinzai. he went to Nanlionan of Mount Mo and said, if we fit, I'll stay here. Otherwise, I'll turn over the meditation seat, which is an old trick of Master Rinzai, you know. If you've ever read the Rinzai Roku, his students always, you know, are turning over the meditation seat at somebody and he's always turning over their meditation seat. So it's a kind of Kind of a, what? What does that mean? Yeah, turning over the seed as a expression of immediate activity. So he said,

[05:37]

If we fit, I'll stay here. Otherwise, I'll turn over the meditation seat." Meaning, I'll just turn it over and leave. So much for you. Then, he went into the meditation hall. Mosheung sent her personal attendant to ask Zhizian, did you come here for enjoyment or buddhadharma? Or did you come here to play tricks? Did you come here to play around, or did you come for Buddhadharma?" And Zhizian said, for Buddhadharma. Moshen ascended the high seat, and Zhizian sat with the assembly, listening to her. Ascending the high seat means she's going to give a talk. And Zhizian sat down in the assembly. After the taisho, which is the talk, Zhi Xian asked a question.

[06:44]

In response, Mo Shan asked, where did you come from today? Zhi Xian said, I came from the north of the road. Actually, it's the mouth of the road. But the person who typed this thought it was north. Then she said, well, why don't you cover it? Meaning, your mouth. Pretty good. Mouth of the road means something like a pure place. Zhizian could not answer. He bowed and said, what is the Mug Moshan? She replied, the peak is not revealed.

[07:50]

Moshan, Shan is mountain. It's a mountain. And so they called her after the mountain, right? Moshan. Her name is not Moshan, but that's where she's from. So she's called Moshan, which means mountain, Mo, mountain, mountain peak. So he says, The peak is not revealed, she said. And then he said, what is the head of Maoshan? It says master here, but could be master or head. And she replied, neither male nor female. She's not attached. Could be neither male nor female. Zhixian yelled out and said, why then don't you go back and forth?

[08:51]

Actually, another translation says, why don't you become a man? Moshan said, being neither divine nor demonic, how is it possible to transform? Zhixian, at this point, made a vow to be faithful to Liaoning's way and became head gardener there for three years. Later, when Zhizian was abbot of his community, he said to the assembly, I got half a scoopful at old man Linji's, and I got another half at old woman Moshan's. Altogether, I ate one full scoop. And even now, I'm still full. Old man Linji, actually also, he means Papa. And Papa Linji and Mama Moshan. It's more literal. So after studying with Lin Chi, who was one of the greatest Zen masters in China, in the Tang Dynasty, he studied with Moshan.

[10:07]

And he thought that both were equal. One half he got from Lin Chi and the other half he got from her. So, and Dogen loves this story. And in Raihai Tokuzui, Making a Frustration that's Entertaining the Marrow, I won't read you the whole thing, but I will be part of it. So what he's talking about here, actually is about he's responding to people who are prejudiced against women and against late-coming older monks, people who start practicing when they're older, and about people who are reluctant to bow to

[11:17]

those people, or to young people, they have reservations about who they should bow to. In the Theravada tradition, the monks sit on an upper seat, and the lay people all sit on the lowest, down on the floor. And you're not supposed to show the soles of your feet to a monk. And you bow to the monks, But a monk will never bow to a layperson. They'll never bow to anyone else but another monk. And they will never bow to women, and so forth. So, Doggen is responding to this kind of attitude. Well, I kind of want to read the whole thing, but I won't. Well, maybe I will.

[12:20]

So he's talking, his attitude is to be not discriminating. He says, when we practice supreme and perfect enlightenment, it is very difficult to receive instruction from a good master. It doesn't matter whether the master is a man or a woman. The only requirement is attainment of the way and accessibility. Nor does it matter if the master belongs to the past or present. For example, a spirit of a wild fox was once changed into a priest of high virtue. You'd think he's talking about Hyakujo and the fox. And this is the true form of attaining the marrow of beneficial instruction. It is karma never ceases without thought of self or others. After we have met a true master, we must sever all old relationships, stop wasting time, and practice the way earnestly with great effort.

[13:27]

We must continue to practice regardless of how much or how little expectation we have. We should attend to this practice immediately with all our might. If we study like this, those who slander the law will not trouble us. The story about the ancestor who cut off his arm and attained his master's marrow, that's Eka, is not about someone else. We are already the teacher who has cast off body and mind. Someone recently asked me to lecture about Taiso Eka and Bodhidharma and what it means for Eka to cut off his arm and present it to Bodhidharma. standing in the snow. I'll do that sometime, but not tonight. Attainment of the marrow is one's master and transmission of the Dharma is accomplished through sincerity and true faith. Sincerity and true faith do not come from either outside or inside.

[14:33]

The Dharma is of far more value than our small body. Abandon the world and follow the way. This is Dogen's way. If we think we are of more value than the Dharma, it will never be transmitted, received, or attained. That's an interesting statement. If we think that we are of more value than the Dharma. So when we practice, what is the most valuable thing? Ourself or the Dharma? I think that's a question that everyone has to deal with. Because if you value yourself more than the dharma, you'll never get the dharma. And this is, for a person who values the dharma more than themselves, they can always tell what student has realization and what student doesn't. We must value the dharma above all else no matter what it is, a pillar, a stone lantern, buddhas, wild foxes, demons, men or women.

[15:52]

If such things possess the great dharma and have attained their master's marrow, we must receive and maintain their dharma in our own body and mind throughout endless kalpas. We can easily gain a body and mind like the rice plants, hemp, bamboo, or reeds that grow throughout the world. Yet it is very difficult to find the true dharma. And actually, Dogen usually says it's very difficult to be born as a human being. But here he's saying it's easy, but that's all right. Shakyamuni Buddha said, When you meet a master who proclaims supreme enlightenment, do not be overly concerned with her social status or nationality, appearance, faults, or behavior. That one should be highly respected because of their wisdom.

[16:57]

So provide that person daily with good food. Honor that person with heavenly food and celestial flowers. Every day pay homage with three prostrations and keep all evil thoughts from arising. If you do such things, surely there will be a way to enlightenment. Ever since I first developed the resolve for enlightenment, I have continually practiced like that and attained supreme and perfect enlightenment right up to the present day." So he's saying that he's quoting Shakyamuni, but he's not really quoting Shakyamuni, is he? He's putting words in his mouth. This is a well-known saying of his, you know, don't worry about their nationality, don't worry about their behavior, and so forth. And people think, well, does that mean a monk or a teacher who does irreverent things? Or, you know, who is a wild fox, so to speak?

[18:01]

I don't think he means that. What he means by behavior I don't think means behavior outside of the teacher's position. I don't think that's what it means. Because everyone has faults, even really good teachers, but it doesn't hinder their teaching or hinder their position. Then, therefore, you should ask trees and stones to proclaim the Dharma. Seek out rice paddies and villages to hear their explanations. Question round pillars and study walls and tiles. Once Indra made a prostration to a fox and asked him about the dharma. That fox was called a great bodhisattva. The fox's action was independent of noble or ignoble karma. However, foolish people who have never heard of the Buddhist dharma consider themselves great bhikkhus and refuse to make prostrations to young people who have attained the dharma.

[19:15]

This is where he starts actually talking about it. They say, we have practiced for many years and refuse to make prostrations to those who begin to study late in life and then attain the dharma. Since we have acquired the title of master, We cannot make prostrations to those without that title. We are in charge of regulations and should not make prostrations to ordinary monks just because they have attained the Dharma. We are senior priests and cannot make prostrations to laymen or women who have attained the Dharma. We are like the three sages and ten saints, so we should not be required to make prostrations to nuns who have attained the Dharma. We are descendants of the imperial family and will not make prostrations to ministers or retainers, even if they have attained the Dharma. Such foolish people uselessly leave their fatherland and wander through other countries and never see or hear the Buddhist way." So I remember Suzuki Roshi, sometimes people would say, well, when I come in to have dokasan, you sit there and I do the prostration.

[20:25]

But he said, you should always be, teachers should always be willing to make a prostration to the student. And I remember one time I walked into his room, you know, just walked into the room, for some reason I was going into his room, he called me into the room, and he made a prostration. And I was stunned, I was completely stunned, I didn't know what to do. You know, why did you do that? And I knew why he did it. He did it because he wanted to show me that a teacher can make a prostration to the student. That's what he was demonstrating to me. But it was very shocking to me because he would do things without explaining anything and just, you know, suddenly out of the blue, just do something like that.

[21:29]

I just thought of that. Long ago, great master Zhou Shu, Shinsai of the Tang Dynasty, developed the resolve for enlightenment and began a pilgrimage, he said. I will ask instruction from anyone with superior knowledge, even if he is a child of seven. At that time, Zhou Shu was 80. He went on pilgrimage when he was 80 years old. And he said, if I meet someone who has only been practicing for one day and they have more understanding than I do, then I will submit to them. Or if I meet a little girl of seven who has the dharma, I'll submit to her. So even if he is a child of seven, actually even if she is a child of seven is the way I will not talk with anyone who is inferior, even if he is a hundred. Instead, I will teach him. Asking a child of seven about the Dharma and making a prostration before her, says him, even though we are much older, is very praiseworthy and a right-minded attitude of an ancient Buddha.

[22:41]

Also, when a monk who is seeking a way in the Buddhist brotherhood meets a nun who has attained both the way and the Dharma and makes a prostration and asks her about the law, It is an excellent illustration of true Buddhist study. It is like quenching a severe thirst." Zen Master Shikan of China was a senior priest of Rinzai. This is the same story I just read you, only it's The first time Rinzai saw Shikhan coming, he asked him to stop by. Shikhan said, OK. And Rinzai said, I was about to give you a blow, but decided not to. This is his style. After this, Shikhan became Rinzai's disciple. Later on, Shikhan left Rinzai and went to Matsuzan.

[23:53]

Matsuzan is the same as Mosan. Right? Zan and San both mean mountain in both Chinese and Japanese. To see the nun, Ryonan. That's her Japanese name. Matsuzan, we go back to calling her Matsuzan again, asked him, where are you from? And Shikhan said, from the road's mouth. That's right. Matsuzan said, why don't you cover that mouth? Shikan was unable to reply. Then he made a prostration and became her disciple. Another time, Shikan asked her, what kind of mountain is Matsuzan? And she said, its peak cannot be seen. Shikan said, what kind of people live on this mountain? Matsuzan said, they don't have the form of men or women. Shikan said, why don't you turn into a man? She said, I am not the spirit of a wild fox, so how can I change? Shikhan prostrated himself before her, resolved to seek enlightenment from her, and studied under her for three years.

[25:00]

Later on, after Shikhan returned to the world as a full priest, he told his disciples, I received a half full ladle from that old fellow Rinzai and another half full one from the old woman Matsuzan, making one full ladle. Now I am completely satisfied and seeking nothing further." Looking back on this old story, we can see that Matsuzan, a top disciple of Kōan Daigū, transmitted her master's life blood and thereby became Shikhan's old woman. Rinzai was the Dharma heir of Zen master Ōbaku and possessed strength derived from diligent practice, and that is how he became Shikhan's old man. Old man means father. Old woman means mother. Shikhan's prostrations and seeking of the Dharma under Matsuzan is a high-minded illustration of Buddhist practice. It is an example of a monk's integrity and the breaking down of all barriers." So Dogen was very interested in breaking down the barriers.

[26:03]

And he sees this story as completely quality. holds up this monk as an example of someone who had some problem, some sexist problem, actually. But it was neutralized by this woman, who became his teacher. And he was free enough to be able to accept her as his teacher. Very unusual for those days, I think. Dongyin also says that there are a lot of nuns who had some monasteries in China. The nun Miao Xun was a disciple of Gyozang. This is a different woman, Miao Xun.

[27:07]

The nun Miao Xun was a disciple of Gyozang. Once, Gyozan was looking for a suitable candidate for the monastery's administrative chief. He asked the senior experienced monks to recommend a good person. Many opinions were offered. And finally, Gyozan said, the nun Myosin from Waisu district is a woman. She has a superior spirit and is the best qualified person for administrative chief. All agreed. And Myosin was appointed to the position. At that time, there were many excellent disciples under Gyōzōn, but no one was dissatisfied with the decision, although her position was not the most important one. She did her best and loved others as herself. Once she was working in the administrative quarters and 17 monks from the Shoku district came to see her master. They wanted to climb the mountain right away. Her master lived on top of the mountain, The office was at the bottom of the mountain, kind of like Jamesburg.

[28:11]

So they wanted to climb the mountain right away, but it was too late, and they had to spend the night at the administrative quarters. At night, they began to discuss the famous story of the sixth patriarch and the wind and flag. You all know that story? I know you do. I know somebody who doesn't. But the Sixth Patriarch came back after being gone for 15 years and entered this monastery, and there were these two monks arguing, talking about the flag, which was waving. And one monk said, is it the flag that's waving or the wind? Is it the flag that's moving or the wind that's moving? And the Sixth Patriarch said, it's neither the flag nor the wind. It's your mind that's moving. That's the story. So at night, they began to discuss the famous story of the sixth patriarch and the wind and the flag. All the 17 monks gave their respective opinions, but all were off the mark.

[29:18]

Myoshin overheard the discussion and said, it's a pity that the 17 donkeys have worn out so many pairs of straw sandals on pilgrimages and still cannot even dream about the Buddhist dharma. A little later, Myoshin's attendant told them what his master thought about their discussion, but none of them were dissatisfied or resentful about it. On the contrary, they were ashamed of their lack of attainment of the way. They straightened up their robes, offered incense, made prostrations, and sought her instructions. She said, please come closer. But before they could come closer, she shouted, The wind is not moving, the flag is not moving, the mind is not moving." When they heard that, all of them reflected on their own hearts, then bowed to her in gratitude and became her disciples. Soon after that, they returned to Seishu without even visiting Gyoza.

[30:25]

Truly, Myoshin's level is not surpassed by the three sages and ten saints. and her actions are those of one who transmits the right stream of the Buddhas and ancestors. Therefore, when present-day chief priests and top disciples lack understanding, they should ask nuns who have attained the Dharma to come and instruct them. What good are elders who have not attained the Dharma? Masters who instruct many people must have enlightened vision. Nevertheless, there are many foolish masters who are attached to body and mind and are laughed at by even worldly people, much less given recognition as interpreters of the Buddhist Dharma. Also, among lay people, there are some who question the practice of making prostrations to those monks who possess the right transmission.

[31:31]

They do not know the Buddhist dharma. They do not study. They do not resemble animals and are far from the Buddhists and patriarchs. Yet if anyone is willing to devote their entire body and mind to the Buddhist dharma, surely the dharma will give them help. Even fools in heaven and earth can recognize true sincerity. Can it be possible for the true law of all the Buddhas to fail to establish harmony among all things? Even soil, sand, and stones possess the ability to feel sincerity. In present day temples in Sung Dynasty China, there are nuns who have become famous for their practice and attainment of the Dharma. They are appointed masters of famous monasteries at the emperor's request and give many lectures in the Dharma Hall. The chief priest and all the other monks assemble in the Dharma Hall and listen to their proclamation of the law. The question and answer session will be conducted in the manner of bhikkhus. There is an established practice.

[32:33]

After someone has attained the Dharma, that is, become a true ancient Buddha, we should not think about past meetings with that person, that is, before they became an ancient Buddha. When we meet that person after their enlightenment, it is on special and new ground, and we should only think about the new circumstances. We shouldn't think about how they were when we knew them. but how they are now. Often it's very, you know, we have trouble sometimes when someone changes in some way and becomes a little different, you know. We still think of them in the old way and address them in the old way and pigeonhole them in the old way. Well, that is why a nun who transmits the iron treasury of the true law and has been honored and instructed by arhats The three sages and ten saints should receive our prostrations. What makes you noble just because you are a man?"

[33:36]

So this really, in the 13th century, flies in the face of a lot of the Buddhist understanding of that time. After all, universal emptiness is universal emptiness. The four elements are the four elements, and the five skandhas are the five skandhas. Women are the same. Attaining the way can be accomplished by both men and women. Moreover, we must equally respect both attainments of the dharma, both attainments of the dharma. Do not be concerned with the differences between men and women. This is a basic principle of the supreme and wonderful Buddhist way. In China there are also lay people who have not renounced the world, yet still devote themselves to Buddhism. There are single people and couples living in huts, practicing clean and pure lives in the midst of the dirt and pain of this world. Yet all of these people are trying to clarify the same things as masters who have become monks and gathered together to study, make prostrations and receive instruction.

[34:53]

It makes no difference if they are men, women or beasts. Those who have not seen the Buddhist dharma even in their dreams, and this includes hundred-year-old bhikkhus, cannot surpass laymen or women who have attained the dharma. Still, they simply bow to them as a host bows to his guest. Anyone who practices and attains the Buddhist dharma, even a girl of seven, will be the leader and compassionate father of all monks, nuns, laypeople, and sentient beings. In the Lotus Sutra, the daughter of a dragon king became Buddha. She should be venerated, honored, and respected like all the Buddhas and Tathagatas. This is the ancient practice of the Buddhist way. Those who do not know this and lack the right compassion, right transmission, are to be greatly pitied." There is this story in the Lotus Sutra about the woman who was qualified to become a Buddha, but she had to become a man first. You know that story? This is a story that is always brought up about Buddhists

[35:57]

with sexism in Buddhism. You can notice it, he says, that you have to become a woman, no matter how qualified you are, you have to become a man in the next life. So I really enjoy this fantasy called Dogens, and I think does clarify something about Dogen and his progressive attitudes in the 15th century. And so when we read a story like this fairy tale of Buddha and Nanda, which Dogen is actually presenting, you know that he also has this other attitude of his own.

[37:03]

So when we think about that story, I think it's important to get beyond what we would think of as a sexist attitude, even though you can see it that way. So do you have any comment on this, any of this? I've been doing all the talking, so far. Just to mention that in Benoit also, there's a... Benoit? In Benoit, I think the question and answer section up there, says something about... I'm learning the same lines, yeah. If there's any difference between women and men. Yeah, that's right. Between lay people and everybody. Right. Right. And when Dong Yan, up until... I think up until the time that he went to Aehaejin, found Aehaejin, he was very much involved with lay people.

[38:09]

And when he came back from China, he was very much, you know, involved with lay people and men and women, and had a very progressive attitude. Not that laymen and other humans have not always been part of Buddhism, but the equality has always been there. But as he became more monastically involved, he started talking about lay, about monks, monks' practice and the equality of monks' practice. as being more deeper than lay people's practice. And so he's kind of shifted over to that side more later. But in his earlier practice, you know, Durkin's a very extreme kind of person.

[39:17]

So he became more traditional toward the last part of his life and started favoring monk's practice. But I don't think he ever really gave up or changed his attitude toward women and lay people. But he just started emphasizing monk's practice. And when he's talking to monks, he was trying to encourage them. That's my feeling. Somebody had their hand up. Yeah. Speak loud. Do you have any way of knowing what his contemporaries, how they responded to his attitude? It doesn't seem to me, when I know that that was a, you know, wasn't a general acceptance, it seems to me, thought it was an eyeball? Well, Dogan was thought, was a threat.

[40:24]

A threat. Threat. Yeah, when Dogen came back from China, he was a threat to the establishment. And they burned his place down and kind of forced him out of circulation. It was very hard for him to establish himself. And he went to different temples, different places, and found places where he could establish himself. But not because of that. Because he brought back Zen from China. Yosai, or Eisai, was one of the first monks to bring back the Zen practice from China. And Dogen studied with him. Or at least we think he studied with him. And he died about two years after Dogen met him. And then Myozen was Eisai's disciple.

[41:29]

And Dogen went to China with Myozen after Eisai died and became Myozen's student. He really had a very strong feeling for Myozen. And last time I was in Japan, I went to this temple where Myozen, in Kyoto, where Myozen's grave was. It's just a very simple little grave. Wonderful to visit that. And then when he came back from China, Myozen actually died in China. But when he came back from China, then he started to establish the Soto style of Zen. whereas Eisai established the Rinzai style. And Dogen was always complaining about the quality of practice in Japan.

[42:39]

He came back and started bad-mouthing everybody, saying, these people aren't practicing the true Dharma, you know, they're just playing around. And he kind of upset their comfortable situation. People had a very comfortable situation. This is what happens with religion. It starts out with true dharma, and then becomes established with the aristocrats, and becomes the property of the aristocrats, and becomes very comfortable And then somebody comes in and wants to re-establish the true dharma, which is what Dogen did. He was a reformer, basically a reformer. The reason he went to China was because he couldn't find anybody in Japan to study with.

[43:42]

He wanted to get a purist, a little bit stinky of purism, but still, a reformer. And so naturally when somebody wants to come and reform you, you don't want them around. Somebody may come over here someday and say, you guys are not practicing the true dharma. What do you mean? Get rid of this guy. Yeah, they didn't care about it. It was what he thought about women. I don't think so. I don't think that was their problem. But it was more like he made them all feel uncomfortable. I think sometimes when we go to Japan, unwittingly, we make them feel uncomfortable because They're very comfortable.

[44:45]

They've got it all down. They don't have to do Zazen or anything. They just run their temples and collect donations and live a nice lifestyle. And then we go over there, where's the zendo? It's true. Oh, yeah, I think we had a Zen center. One time, but it's all full of music. It's a dance hall. So it makes them feel very uncomfortable. But they, you know, and so they have this distant respect. Tassajara is a very, a Zen center is a very respected place, but with reservations. What are the reservations?

[45:48]

What are the reservations? Well, you know, they want to make it look like there's something, you know, they're the establishment and we're Johnny-come-latelys. And we're not Japanese. I mean, we'll never be totally accepted until we become Japanese. It's true. And they don't even know that. We know that. I don't know that. But they kind of know that. How did it feel, or how did Suzuki Roshi feel coming here as a governor and starting this? How does he like that exercise? Suzuki Roshi was a very unusual person. All of the teachers, Japanese teachers who have come to America to teach and made it have been very unusual people for Japanese.

[46:55]

I'm not trying to put down Japanese. I love the Japanese. So I'm not really trying to put them down. I'm just talking about certain attitudes. And our attitudes are just as, you know, that we don't know about are just as bad. So I'm not really trying to judge. you know, put down anything. It's just that they have these attitudes. Suzuki Roshi didn't have these attitudes. Suzuki Roshi didn't have attitudes. They were, you know, they didn't get in his way. And he was very careful. He knew, you know, what was Japanese, what was American, and what he was presenting to us and what he wasn't, and what we could take and what we couldn't, and who we were and who they were. He knew all that. He said, when I came to America, I didn't have any expectations. And I just came and enjoyed everything. And everything I saw was new and interesting. And I didn't have any idea about it. So I could just be here, land there, and everything was new and fresh and wonderful.

[48:00]

And we didn't have any expectations about it. Well, I didn't. Some people thought about, you know, they looked him up in the phone book. and started practicing at Sokoji on Bush Street, the old synagogue, which was bought by the Japanese. After they saved their money, they were in detention camps, and they saved their money during the war. And then when they came out, they bought this old synagogue on Bush Street. And that was the Zen Center. just practiced Protestant Zen. You know what I mean? Protestant. They went to church. It was not, you know, just church. And they had the Go Club, which is still there. The Go Club is probably the only thing that's still there. They moved later, they built a place, after the Zen Center moved out, they built a place a block away on Sutter Street.

[49:07]

The new Sokoji. But we practiced there for a long time on Bush Street. It was great. Great zendo. It was upstairs. They gave us this room upstairs that had windows that were low. And the light in the room was so wonderful. The place where you learn to do zazen and sit a lot of sushis, you always had this nostalgia for it. I remember how reluctant I was to leave that place. because it was very beautiful. It was a square room, which is nice. Anyway, what was your question? I was just wondering about, like you were talking about reformers, you said radicals. Oh yeah, Suzuki raised the attitude, and so he was beholden to the people who he was working for, which was the Japanese congregation, who were Protestant, Zen practitioners.

[50:11]

And it was like Sunday services. And very much like the Christian church, you know. But with some differences. And he would sit Zazen. And so all these hippies would come to Zazen. It was great, you know, wonderful. I remember this leads me into what I was going to talk about before, which I'll talk about next time, which is our work in Zazen. There was a sign that said, cleaning first, Zazen second. We tend to think, well, Zazen is the important thing here. Sitting there and everything else is just kind of secondary. Zazen is the meat, you know, and all the other things you do are like vegetables, and the accoutrements, and continue a vegetarian.

[51:23]

But everything was equal for Suzuki Roshi, you know. Work was just as important as Zazen. And the way he took care of everything was just as important as all part of Zazen. We didn't sit as much Zazen as we do now. Although Zazen was really, it was the center of things, but it wasn't the center of things to the neglect of other things. So real, you know, what he was telling us is real practice includes every part of your life. And how do you balance all of the parts of your life equally? And when you're doing one thing, when you're, you know, eating, that's zazen. That's the main thing. And when you're cleaning, that's the main thing.

[52:28]

You know, it's not like we'll clean and then we'll sit zazen. No, this is it, right now. And then when he sits down, that's it. Which is hard for us to, you know, to get. Even for students who have been practicing 20 years, it's hard for them to get it. And when you're going back and forth over the road between Carmel Valley in Tassajara or San Francisco in Tassajara. That's where you're practicing Zazen. That's just as important as being here or being there. So this was really the essence of Soto Zen practice that Suzuki Roshi was teaching us.

[53:28]

He didn't try to make us Japanese. And there were a lot of things Japanese that he did not like at all. And a lot of things that he didn't give us. He tried to make it as simple as possible for everybody to practice. I remember one time I was talking to a Tendai master who happened to come to Zen Center. And he said, you know, we tend to think of the Tendai chanting as being very special and elaborate. He said, in Japan, he said, the most elaborate kind of chanting is Soto Zen. But we never hear that. And he said, you know, the most cultured and the most however, I would say. And he said, when Suzuki Roshi came, he just gave you chanting in the monotone.

[54:39]

So everybody didn't, people didn't have to learn anything. They could just practice, just join in right away. And you didn't have to know anything. Just practice. Yeah. Aki-san said that at AHE they chant monotone for about three years, and then in the fourth year they can start doing... Yeah, after chanting the monotone for three years, then they can start to learn how to do the elaborate chanting. When I was Shuso, in 1970, we brought Tatsugami Roshi to Tassajara. He had been the Ino at Eheiji for ten years. And he was... a wonderful drinker and smoker. But when he came here, he didn't drink, but he did smoke all the time. But he was, I've never heard anybody chant like him in my life.

[55:48]

And he made some of the tapes that we use. He introduced us to the style of of the ornaments that we use in our chamber. And he made a tape one time of a special ceremony. And this tape, I'd never heard anything like it in my life. It was just like, knocked me out completely. But we lost it. Somehow it disappeared like things do. I've never been able to locate that tape, but it was just unbelievable. And he had this great rich voice. that, you know, and he set up the monastic community for us, the monastic style. Before that, we just kind of did kind of monastic style. Suzuki Roshi, you know, although he had spent time

[56:53]

at Eheji in the monastery, which he loved very much. He was basically a temple priest. And he was always, you know, involved with laypeople. And so he didn't really feel qualified to set up the monastic practice. That's why we asked Tatsagami Roshi to come over and do that. He didn't always do things himself. He always, you know, got qualified people, people that he felt were more qualified than he was to do things. But in the end, people kind of didn't like Tatsugami so much because they felt like he was trying to take over. But I enjoyed him a lot, so, because I was Shuso with him, you know, and we just had a great time. He was speaking Japanese, which I couldn't understand at all, and he couldn't speak any English. But there was some kind of rapport that was going on, deeper than the language.

[57:59]

And that was great. I just loved that, you know, because it went beyond the language, just gestures. And he would talk to me in Japanese, and I didn't know exactly what he was saying. Just, you know, just by the kind of force of personality, you know. I didn't know exactly what he was saying, but I knew what he was saying. I could get it. So, well, getting back to this, I think that Dogen felt this way. Japanese people don't feel this way. Japanese people are very sexist. And there's a division between the, you know, as we know, this division between the sexist, the male and female, and women were treated as lower beings.

[59:01]

And I remember there was a Japanese student who was studying, who was studying architecture, or something like that, in BC, and he came and practiced with us in Berkeley. I liked him, but he was an interesting, strange little guy. I had a very good rapport with him. We had a great understanding. And then he said, my mother's coming. And she's coming to visit. And when she came, I spoke to her and treated her just like I would treat anybody. I treated her in a way that isn't equal. And somehow I could see that I shouldn't be treating her as an equal and I never saw him again. Because Japanese men don't treat their mothers, they treat their mother kind of like in a lower place because they're women.

[60:10]

Anyway, so Dogen's attitude does not filter down through all of the Japanese Buddhist practice or even the Soto school's practice. But it does find some footing here in America. And when we first started Zen Center, we had to work out a lot of stuff between men and women. We went through all kinds of changes. Because we had this practice which included both men and women from the beginning. And the men didn't know that they were sexist. And the women had to show them that they were.

[61:14]

And so we would have meetings talking about, you know, what was sexist and what was not, and what our attitudes were, and it just took a long time. You know, like, when you create a committee, or something, you find that you had all men on it. Why was that? You know, you didn't even think about it. You didn't think about inviting women, or to balance the, balance it out, you know? So then, after a while, we began to realize, every time we had some kind of committee or some kind of group, that there would always be an equal number of men and women, or more or less, you know, equal number of men and women whenever that's possible. I mean, that would be something we always think about doing. Now we just do that without even thinking about it, more or less. So, I mean, that whole process, you know, we spent years and years working out

[62:20]

of the equality factor between men and women. And it still isn't completely worked out. But it's definitely consonant with Dogen's original way. And it really disturbs the Japanese a lot. They try to include it. But it's hard for them. And when they would invite us over to do something, they would always invite the men, but never the women. So we'd have to say, well, you know, this is woman, too. And it's that woman and this woman. And so, OK, OK. But it's not something they think about. It's something we always have to think about. Yeah. Why don't you become a woman?

[63:28]

Why don't you transform yourself into a woman? There's a lot of play on words here that doesn't come through in the translation. You know, the subtleties that don't come through in the translation. I'm sure it's a real play on words that if you understand the language, it becomes, you know, apparent. But also what it's saying is that what transforms is demons, you know. You usually transform a demon into something else. You don't, you know what I mean? And like here in this translation, she says, well, I'm not a wild fox. So, you know, referring to the transformation of a wild fox into his endmaster, right?

[64:32]

That's just her way of speaking to him, you know? You understand? I wouldn't take it too literally. Yes, he was taking literally the transformation of a man, male and female. Well, I'm not sure he was. I would think he was just giving her a problem. See, he's just giving her a problem. He's not expecting her to do that. He's just saying, well, what about this? He's pushing her into the corner to see what she's going to do with that. That's what he's doing. He's not expecting her to turn into a man. He's just saying, well, then why don't you do that? And he keeps pushing her into the corner, and she keeps topping him, right? She keeps saying, well, you know, I'm not a demon, so that's not possible. I'm not a wild fox, that's not possible.

[65:35]

So she's always able to turn around, or turn him around, so that he doesn't get the better of her. This is the Dharma combat. Well, you know, if you look at enough translations, each one is different. And then you kind of put two and three together, two or three together, and you make your own conclusion as to what So just in that, also, she answered in a way that was unconventional, and to get out of the realm of ordinary experience, saying, this is neither men nor women, neither female nor male.

[66:39]

Are you talking about magical things there? If you are free of male and female, why can't you be male? Right, that's right. Is this a magic thing you're talking about? And she would say, this isn't magic. Right. This isn't real magic. Right. So she escaped into herself. She escaped into her true self. And so she knew where to go. Right? Whereas someone else might say, well, you know, I am a woman, but, you know, I could be a man or something like that, you know. I'm not a man or a woman. And all of us are like that. All of us are neither men nor women. Men, we can be men and women. If we know that we're not man or woman, then we can be a man or a woman. It's okay. What did you think of Jerome's question at the recent Shuso Ceremony?

[68:02]

At what? Jerome's question at Peter's Shuso Ceremony. Do you remember it? Oh, Peter's Shuso Ceremony. Boy, yeah, I do remember it. I'm trying to think of it. What did he say? He said, men to the left, women to the right. Which way does Buddha go? Straight ahead. I don't remember what Peter said. No, he said, what? What? No bath for me? Well, there's another story like that. Which is? This is a very short story.

[69:08]

This is an example of someone, page six, number seven. This is an example of someone who has advanced in a way, who is serving as Ino, great master Baozi of Huayang Monastery in Jinzhou, whose initiatory name was Zunijing, was an Arab Dongshan, He was once in Roppu and became Ino. He called the assembly together by hitting the Han with a mallet, as it is done. And he said, when they all came, he said, you people, he was acting actually as work leader. They were having fushin zamai. Fushin zamai. Not zamai. Fushin. work. Hushin... What is this work called?

[70:21]

Hushin Zamu, meaning community work. So, When he assembled, he said, you people on the right side of the hall, take care of the firewood. And you people on the left can plow. Then the Shuso said, what about the holy monk? Meaning Mounjushri, who is sitting on the altar. And Baozhi replied, he is not actually sitting in this hall. Actually, everybody has a different interpretation of this, what he said. But I think the best one is, he's sitting in the middle. He doesn't belong to either side. So what should he do? So that's the koan.

[71:29]

He raised up this koan. Zui Jing was Eno when studying under Luo Tu. Later, he succeeded Deng Shan's Dharma. He was not a minor teacher, but was a fine example of someone accomplished in the way. If we want to compare him when he was Eno with the elders of the day, the elders of the day did not reach to his stature. So, Monjushri doesn't belong to either side. And neither do you. But, you know, we have women's bathing and men's bathing. So there is some difference. We have to respect the difference, but we also have to respect the non-difference.

[72:36]

When we're sitting in Zazen, we're just not male or female, even though that's there. And in our activity, we have to realize that all the time. like Hinduism. Like what is it? Hinduism. What about Hinduism? Where men and women's roles are differentiated in terms of men, you know, being more, you know, probably actually would like to have cliches, but part of the teaching is that men would apply themselves more to study, say, and women perhaps more to Well, it's not just Hinduism. It's Judaism.

[73:38]

It's all in the old world. That's what the old world is like. Men have certain roles and women have certain roles. And that's just what it's always been like, except with a few exceptions. There have been some exceptions. But that's what it's always been like. And Suzuki Roshi, you know, was very skeptical about our equality of the sexes in that way, in the way we do. Because he felt that women want to become men. You know, this is the time when women's liberation, you know, meant that you had to become a man before you could be equal. And he said, equality means that a woman becomes a woman completely, a man becomes a man completely, and then they're equal. But if a man tries to become a woman, and a woman tries to become a man, in order to be equal, that's not equality. So then women compliment men, and they compliment women.

[74:44]

And so you have yin and yang, and the balance of forces in the world. But if everybody becomes yang, the world turns over. And there's no balance. So, you know, the old world understood the fact that men and women have complementary roles. But the problem is that the complementary roles became very polarized. And women's, this is women's thing, that was men's thing. And when you have, seems to me, that when we have certain attitudes, they become very simplistic, and they don't take into account all the subtleties and the differences. This is what women are, and this is what men are.

[75:46]

That's simplistic society, certain expectations. And so, naturally, people get tired of that, fed up with it, and it doesn't work, and then they have to do something else. And so the pendulum swings in a different way. And then, people get tired of that, because it doesn't work. And then the pendulum has to swing the other way. And then people get tired of that, you know. That's the way it goes. Things go in cycles. And we just happen to be in this cycle now, of equality factor, because it wasn't working, it doesn't work the other way, because of the way society is changing. And so everybody's kind of groping around, Because the balance is shifting and it's like this big cauldron turning everybody out, you know? And they're all scrambling and scrambling to find out where they belong and how to make their life work. Really. And they're all... It's the kind of image I have, you know?

[76:49]

People falling out of this big cauldron and sliding on, you know, and hanging on to each other and killing each other off, you know? Trying to find out. how to make, how to find a new balance, because the old balance is just so upset. You know, the whole world balance is completely upset. We're in a really difficult place right now. Yeah, Tom? How do you feel about the single sex machine? Single what? Single sex machine, like sex machines for women. I think it's great. Because women have Sashins and because men have Sashins, that doesn't... If women have Sashins, it doesn't minimize my practice. And if men have Sashins, it shouldn't minimize anybody's practice. I think it's great for women to get together and do something together. I think it's man... And I'm not... I think there's a lot about the traditional roles that's being tossed out the window, which actually,

[77:59]

with the baby. It doesn't bother me. I don't... Traditional roles are fine, but as far as men having sushis together, women have... I think they should get together. Men should get together because we're too mixed up, actually. When I first came to Sokoji, the man sat on one side and the woman sat on the other side of the zendo. And when we got up, the men bowed to the women, and the women bowed to the men. And it was wonderful. I mean, I just loved that. It's like the men had, you know, these are the men, these are the women, and they bowed to each other. And it was wonderful. And then we started mixing everybody up. We said, well, it's got to have it equal. We have to mix it all up, you know, to make it equal. And it's never been the same. Well, it's true.

[79:08]

In order to feel the oneness of men and women, you have to recognize the difference. If you try to mix them all up, that's not oneness. Barbara? What translation of that poem was that? Oh, um, Nishiyama's. I think there's another one. It's that, the first time I read it, I was just writing a poem about it, and I wrote a very snide poem, and the translation I read felt terribly patriarchal. Sort of like, uh, even you should value women. Even. often the one that you find in this kind of writing.

[80:10]

It's to humble the monk rather than to raise the woman or the lay person. But this translation you read did not have that appeal to it. Well, I took some of those out as I was reading it. Why? I took some of those out as I was reading it. Ah ha! Okay. Because there is that sense, which I think is part... But it's the translator also. What? The translator can... But there's also the times. I mean, you can't expect people to actually don't want to read the line. I mean... Well, you know... Equal in that you can all get enlightened, but I bet you didn't get kind of... Yeah, but he's saying, never mind the times. Let's just look at what Dogen's saying. Never mind the times. Let's just look at what Dogen's saying. I did cross out a but. I did.

[81:12]

As a matter of fact, I crossed it out with a pencil. So that it wouldn't say... You know, they asked her to be the manager, right? But... Where was that? The nun, Myoshin, was from Waiso district, a woman, but she had a superior spirit. Right. I just crossed out the but. But it doesn't mean that Dogen put the but in there. I'm glad you crossed it out. It doesn't mean that Dogen put the but in. The translator puts the but in. Because the thing could be translated so many different ways. And that's what's so tricky about translating. I've done a lot of this, you know, and thought about how you express something, you know, and it can be expressed, you know, so many different ways.

[82:15]

And you could say, but, but it doesn't make sense. It doesn't, because it disqualifies what's actually being said. If you put the but in there, it disqualifies the meaning of what's being said. So it just seemed like the wrong thing to put in there. But I could see the translator putting it in there. I met him. He's a nice guy. But... But he's a sexist. I happen to know this. Jack? Well, I have two things to say. I've noticed from my own experience that if it's all men, I don't like it. If there's one woman there, then I can practice comfortably.

[83:19]

It feels interesting. But this last thing that you read about, the elders of today do not reach his stature. It seems like Gogen is attacking a lot means so I don't want I don't want to attack yoga good but I think I think there's a dynamic where you're trying to help people I'm trying to show them something that you know fall into the same problem, in order to be skillful beings, which the other side is not skillful. Well, he uses this kind of attitude sometimes, which is disconcerting for us. It's a funny thing to say, but I'm just being serious.

[84:22]

We don't have that kind of thing in this country. I used to be in a community where men and women met very simply. And the men, in my experience, really liked it that women would meet simply. And women would come back, and the men would enjoy the energy of the women having been together as women. I don't mind that. He wasn't criticizing that. I just don't want to meet with a bunch of men. It's the same thing. The men would enjoy the entertainment. I don't like it. It's all right, Jack. You don't have to. It's fine with me. I'm pretty okay with it. I think that if that's a true story about this, these monks are going to see this teacher she was in a position of teaching, you know, I mean, she's been appointed the director, but nonetheless, she had, you know, deep realization about what was happening, and so that these guys were able to respect her and acknowledge her and even study with her.

[85:27]

Right. She wasn't supposed to be a teacher, but she was. And she didn't say, I'm your teacher. She just, you know, challenged their understanding and became an She became their teacher on the field. She got her commission on the field, so to speak. Daigon? Well, I just feel a lot. It's incumbent on me to take the part of the chaplain's role. My experience in living for what we have in this mill has been over the years. We've been a bit neglected. Japanese women in marriage and so on. Although the social roles in that country were well-defined, actually the men in many ways respected the women more than I did. They respected the feminine very much and the power of the feminine.

[86:31]

And they were very much in awe of that. And the Japanese men turned over almost all of their money and wife, they become almost observant husbands. And they're all mothers, boys and babies. They're all deeply attached to their mothers, more than I think women are in this country, and deeply respect the power of the feminine in Japan. And even though the Japanese have improved in that sense, I think that's how they behave. So if you read a little bit about the story in this book, you'll see the man makes all the big decisions, like what to do about problems in the economy, and how to handle the human problems, or why it doesn't matter, or where they live, what they eat. Yeah, that's true.

[87:51]

It's complex. You know, when you say one thing, there's always another side that's always there. It's almost time, Barbara. I think that often what we call male and female problems are primarily a box in which things are not moving. I've heard exactly that. Yet if you don't want to stay in that role, and there's no room to move That's what the problem is. And then we ascribe it to the expression of not being able to do anything. That's true of both states. That's true of both states. That's right. That's right. Well, that is a big factor, because now it's children power.

[89:02]

First it was male power, then female power, now it's children power. And the children feel that they don't have any power and they want to revolt against the children. It's true. It's true, yeah. Children at this point are being are the oppressed. Most of the poor in this society are children. Most of those who go without food are children. Most of those who go without medicine are children. And no one asks their opinion. Nobody asks their opinion. May our meditation...

[90:44]

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