He raised a family. He had two children living in the Bay Area here. And he had a part-time clinical psychology practice through an accounting school. He has a private practice continuing here in Berkeley. And for 30 years, he worked in mission mental health, attending to the Tito community. Thank you so much, Ross. I guess it's nice to be here again and with old friends.

[01:39]

And as Ross said, I left in January 13th. I opened the Blue Mountain Zendo in El Cerrito. So I've been sitting there every day since then. And, but it's very nice to be back here. So, I've been, so we have, I offer lecture on Sunday. So I've been lecturing on Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, it's appropriate given our school. and to continue the tradition of Sargent's teaching, and he's always teaching about Suzuki Roshi. And so I've continued that to make sure the root is strong.

[02:45]

And then we have a, I offer a seminar also once a month. And then there we study more of the more scholarly traditions of Buddhism. But for the Sunday talk, and just like here, the Saturday talk is focused more on practice and encouraging people's practice. So I've been focusing on that. My talks here over the years haven't always been like that, but that's what I'm doing now. So what I want to share with you today is some excerpts from a fascicle on breathing. Not because the focus is really breathing, but I mean, it's always breathing the focus, but in Zazen for us and in life, to be alive.

[03:54]

But, you know, Suzuki Roshi, these talks were put together by one of his students, similar I don't know how involved he was with transcribing of the talks himself. I'm not sure of the timing of that. Perhaps Peter knows. But I know that that's going on now with Sojin's talks and his students helping him with that. So these talks are very informal. You know, there isn't necessarily a logical sequence from paragraph to paragraph. They're kind of a collage of related themes. So this fascicle in particular seems that way. But it has, in this fascicle, is where he talks about you have to do something. You have to do something.

[04:59]

And he talks about Blue Mountain, the story of Tozan's story of the Blue Mountain. And so Sojin told me, well, you have to do something. And encouraged me to, you know, to take flight and leave BCC and start Blue Mountain with his support and the support of all of you and Hosan as well. So because those two things that were related to Blue Mountain are in this talk, that's why I chose it, but it's called breathing. So he starts talking about breathing. But then he goes on to talk about what we must do, what we must do and what we must not do. That's the way he's talking about good and bad in this fascicle. So he's saying, well, good and bad is not so important in the sense that it can get dualistic.

[06:05]

The more important is to think about it in terms of what you must do, as referring to good. and what you shouldn't do as referring to bad. So there's no good or bad. It's just what we do and what we don't do. Yes, you have a question. It's too loud? Is that better? Oh, sorry. I apologize for my voice. Yes, good and bad. So bad is just what we don't do. It's no bad, it's just what we don't do. Very interesting way of putting it. But, you know, at the beginning he starts talking about breathing.

[07:10]

When we inhale, the air comes into the inner world. When we exhale, the air goes out to the outer world. So inner world, outer world, inside, outside is a swinging door. Or another metaphor for that is, I don't know if you know what a Moebius strip is in physics. It's like a circle, but if you cut a circle, and then you turn it upside down, and then you reunite it, then you could have an ant walk on the surface of the Moebi strip, and it walks inside, and then it goes outside. So it's a representation of this continuous going from the inside to the outside. Breathing in, breathing out, And self, it's like self and other or no self and no other.

[08:14]

Just breathing. And the interaction. Dynamic interaction. So if you say, if he says, if you think I breathe, the I is extra. There is no you to say I. What we call eyes is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale. It just moves, that's all. But to be aware of the movement does not mean to be aware of your small self, but rather of your universal nature, Buddha nature. So breathing points to our universal nature. something that we all share and we share the oxygen with all life and with all beings and with all people, all races, all nationalities, all nations.

[09:19]

That's the meaning of universal activity. In the Jewish world, people talk about universality. universality, instead of with a U, you put the Jew at the front. You have universality. So that's universality within particularity. So it's not an abstract, you know, like there's a universalist, what is it? There's an American religion, right? It's called Unitarianism, right? So that kind of grabs a little bit of everything. and puts it all together, and then this one thing. But the meaning of universality in Roshi's teaching is that the universality in the particularity, in this particular expression that we have, which is in Buddhism, then we express our universal nature.

[10:22]

And then if we are Americans, You know, America is the continent. But North America calls itself America. And South America sometimes complain about that. You know, why do you appropriate the name of the continent? We're South Americans. We don't say we are Americans. We're South Americans. So that's a characteristic of America is to appropriate. And so people complain about that. So how do we maintain that balance between our universality and our particularity? That's part of Dharma.

[11:25]

how we express that in our attitude, our sense of self, sense of other, in our relationships. But it's not like you can be universal outside of being an American. So if you're an American, you express your universality as an American. You're Japanese, you express your universality as Japanese. And yet having said that, the particularity is not something. What is it? So maybe singularity is better than particularity. Because sometimes with particularity, people get narrow with their definitions of identity. So how do we bring out the universality in any situation that we're in?

[12:32]

That's an important teaching, I think, especially nowadays, you know, we have all these things with the squad, you know. And the president telling them to go back home. So it's that whole question, you know, are they American or not? Or what does it mean to be American? My sense of what it means, and I mean, I was born in Chile. And I was raised there. But my mother, she died. She was North American. So I always had U.S. citizenship. So I'm both. So you can, you have your pick there, how you can approach me. And as a foreigner or as a national citizen, am I one of you or not one of you?

[13:51]

So my sense of the true universality of America is that it's the place for the in-gathering of all the nations. That's why, you know, I mean, I guess the United Nations was an inspiration of John F. Kennedy, which expresses that kind of spirit for this country. Although I've been told to go back home too, you know. Yes. By people you wouldn't think would say something like that, you know. It doesn't always come from where you expect it to come.

[15:01]

Yes, Russ. Oh, yeah. I don't think that was necessarily a compliment that my friends gave me. Say, oh, you know, you're a gringo now, you know, that kind of thing. Yes. Well, I, I, I, yes, it's true. I think when I was in Latin America and I was more extroverted. And then when I came to the States, I became more introverted. And particularly since most of my life in the U.S. has been in Zen, in the Zen world, you know, Zen also is kind of introverted in some way because you go deeply into meditation.

[16:10]

Although Zen, you know, it's, uh, We sit with our eyes open precisely not to go into an introverted state. Like the Hindus, you know, or Hinduism goes into more into internal states, different Samadhi states and whatnot. But we always keep our eyes open because it's always this non-duality, this air circulating between the inside and the outside. And we're offering our practice to all beings. And our practice has imperceptible influences on the world. So we're always offering it, you know, to all beings. Yeah, so I changed a little bit that way, you know, I became more introverted. So he says, you means to be aware of the universe in the form of you.

[17:19]

And I means to be aware of it in the form of I. So the universality expressed as you, universality expressed as I. That's the particularity and the universality. So when you are completely you, then Zen is Zen. That's what Suzuki Roshi says. So we have to be completely ourselves, not some kind of Zen personality that we put on, but Zen brings up our fundamental sense of who we are. And it's expressed in that way, not separate from who we are. So then he goes, then he makes this switch to talk about, so when you practice Zazen, there's no idea of time or space. You may say we started sitting at a quarter to six in this room.

[18:24]

Thus you have some idea of time, a quarter to six, and some idea of space in this room. Actually, what you're doing, however, is just sitting and being aware of the universal activity. That is all. Here there's no idea of time or space. Time and space are one. You may say I must do something this afternoon, but actually there is no this afternoon. We do things one after the other, that's all. There is no such time as this afternoon or one o'clock or two o'clock. At one o'clock you will eat your lunch. To eat your lunch is itself one o'clock. So we could say, we could call the hours by the activities. that we have instead of calling them by time. We could just talk about successive activity, one thing to the next. And that's something that I have more time now because I'm

[19:31]

Partly retired. I still work part-time to support myself, but I have more time. So during the day I have time. So what do I do? What do I do with the time? Sometimes I just spoke about that. The priest, once they get ordained, what do you do? You have all this time. So you're going to get lost, you know, with all this free time. But actually, you know, the way, well, because we've been practicing, doing this practice for so long, and we sit the sheen, so we know how to practice with time, you know. So we have to, must use our time, you know, in a dharmic way. How do we use our days? How do we use our 24 hours? Do the 24 hours turn us or do we turn the 24 hours? How do the 24 hours turn us?

[20:33]

How do we turn the 24 hours? So just moment to moment, one activity after the next. So that's kind of the life of a priest or the life of a monk. It's very structured in some way and in another sense, it's completely open. I do a lot of cleaning, you know, and monks do cleaning, you know, in the monastery. So I try to keep the Zen actually doesn't get so dirty. But so just cleaning and cleaning the house and, you know, cooking the meals and doing the dishes. It's all very satisfying. It's just one complete action, you know, one after the next. And then in the middle, sometimes you get a little lost, you know, and then you bring yourself back to your breathing and to the activity that one has at that moment.

[21:40]

So this is the kind of the must do and practice and sitting Zazen, you know, every day, 6 a.m., 6 p.m. It's a lot of Zazen. So I've been doing it for, what, six, seven months now. So it feels like a little bit, it's physical, very physical. It's like doing, it's like running two hours a day on your legs. Pretty much because that's the amount of time, you know, between zazen and bowing and all that. So you feel it in your legs. So I feel it more now during the day and I'd like to walk as exercise and I have a wonderful path near a blue mountain to walk.

[22:48]

But I had to stop doing that because my legs are getting too sore. So then I realized that doing all this sitting is a lot of physical, the muscles are doing a lot of work for us. You know, so that's why we have to be very compassionate and appreciative of our legs. They hold us up. And they brought us to this continent all the way from Africa. So, you know, it's like in Sashino, so we have the schedule.

[23:51]

Sometimes, you know, we have the beach sand and the square sand, right? And so that schedule is kind of the square sand, you know, every hour, regulated, 40 minutes, 10 minutes, 40 minutes, you know, meals, cooking, blah, blah, you know, all this, which seems like very structured, right? And that's the here and now. That's the square here and now is, Every moment is just this moment, and everything is contained in this moment, but every moment is scheduled. Sometimes people think, oh, meditation, the here and now, it's more like the hippie here and now, you know, just go with the flow, you know, go with your feelings, you know, go with what's happening. partly we go with that flow, but there are different kinds of flow, you know. So we have to know, I think Mary was talking about that, you know, know which flow to go into, which stream, you know, to take.

[24:57]

Because, you know, being spontaneous doesn't mean to just go with your feelings, because then you're pushed around by the tides. So the structure in a way is to give us some sense of freedom from our feelings and our impulses. Because our feelings and impulses are like diamonds in the rough. Carbons, right? They're carbon. Carbon is diamond in the rough. So we have to refine them and the structure is for that purpose. And when you have external structure, it's easier to do it. Like when you come to the Zendo, there's external structure. When the structure depends entirely on your own motivation and whether you do it or you don't do it, that's harder.

[26:03]

But once you've been trained, you know, for a long time with external structure, then it's easier to have internal structure and you don't need so much the external prompts to do the various things and practices. Okay, so then he finishes this paragraph. We should live in this moment. So when we sit, we concentrate on our breathing and we become a swinging door. And we do something, we should do something we must do, which is how we refine our, our heart and our mind is through the breath, the spirit. Hmm. So we breathe and when we breathe and we're fully in our breathing, then the mind is quite light and empty.

[27:13]

And then feelings and thoughts come back and some sense of worry or anxiety or joy may arise. We acknowledge that and let it go and go back to the breathing, keep refining, purifying our mind. So this is Zen practice. In this practice, there's no confusion. If you establish this kind of life, you have no confusion whatsoever. Okay, so here he goes to the story of Tozan. Tozan, a famous Zen master, said, the Blue Mountain is the father of the White Cloud. The White Cloud is the son of the Blue Mountain. All day long, they depend on each other without being dependent on each other. This is a poem that Sojin really liked. He talked a lot about it over the years.

[28:17]

And this is kind of how we practice together, you know, in Sangha practice, we practice together in this kind of intimate relationship. It's not always harmonious, but it's intimate. And so we depend on each other, right? We depend on the Don, we depend on the Doshi, we depend on practitioners, we depend on the Sangha, we depend on the teacher, but we're not dependent on each other. So it's that difference between dependent as opposed to dependence. Because interdependence can be positive or negative. Nowadays we like to speak about, especially after the teaching of Thich Nhat Hanh, as interdependence as a solution, as something good.

[29:18]

Especially in relationship to emptiness, then interdependence is a wholesome reality. But it can also be co-dependence. As we know it in the general culture, there's codependence and being dependent as opposed to independent. And that's a very hot topic in the culture about whether this culture is about independence or about interdependence. And what is the right relationship between interdependence and independence? And Suzuki Roshi contrasted more independency, right? Thich Nhat Hanh says interdependency, Suzuki Roshi said independency. Stressing the independent side, which is not egotistical.

[30:27]

Because our ability to The non-egotistical form of independence is just emptiness, something that's not yet defined, still emerging. So everybody has to find that expression for themselves, how to manifest emptiness as who they are. And then they're also interdependent with everything. So it's an independence that does it, that facilitates interdependence as opposed to interfering with it, like being working alone as opposed to working with others. And that's the whole, there's a whole tension in Buddhism between

[31:34]

that between the path of the ascetic, the solitary practice, and the path of practicing with Sangha. And that's the tension between the Hinayana and the Mahayana, but there's both things in both Mahayana and Hinayana. Just the white cloud is always the white cloud. The blue mountain is always the blue mountain. So the father is the father, the son is the son, the teacher is the teacher, the student is the student. Or the mother is the mother, the daughter is the daughter. It's only instantiated once. Mother, daughter. And yet at the same time, The mother is the daughter and the daughter is the mother. That's part of the interdependence.

[32:39]

There's ways in which I could say that I am my father's father, but strictly speaking, my father is the father and I'm the son. No, don't confuse that. So the same with our teacher, you know. Teacher is a teacher, student is a student. Sometimes the teacher is a student, sometimes the student is a teacher. But don't think that that changes the first thing, which is, you know, the blue mountain is the blue mountain and the white cloud is the white cloud. Yes. And so if we're truly independent, when one o'clock arrives, we're able to take on whatever father or son or whatever role that we have. And so I wanted to ask you to see if you agree with the idea that independence is really the capacity to be, like we all just did, to be kin in.

[33:46]

when it's Kenyan time, and to be sitting and listening to you when it's listening time. That's the kind of independence that I hear when I hear Suzuki Roshi speaking here. Right, yes, but that's the side of working together. But there's another side also, you have to find out things for yourself. Right? So Buddha said when he died, what was your last teaching? Be a lamp unto yourselves. So everybody has to realize this lamp for themselves. But that may be two o'clock instead of one o'clock, if you know what I mean. When we're doing Kenhen, what are we engaged with? Are we independently doing Kenhen or are we dropping away self, you know, and finding freedom or independence to become Right, but if you look at the Kinnian line, everybody's doing it a little bit differently, even though we're all doing Kinnian.

[34:53]

So we're all finding out Kinnian for ourselves as a universal activity, but it's singular to each person. So it's interesting, this question of the blue mountain and the white cloud. Well, I think in Chinese, blue mountain is a way of referring to a father also. So that's why it's sort of a, it portrays the father-son relationship or the father-daughter relationship or the mother-son relationship or the mother-daughter relationship in all possible combinations. And Sojin was pleased that I took the step to open Blue Mountain.

[36:02]

he felt like I was returning like a prodigal son after having been what in his mind seemed to be that I was. You know, because I had a family, professional life, and a life of scholarship, and he felt like I needed to balance it. And so being established now in Blue Zindo, now he feels it's balanced. So he told me that was like the prodigal son. a story that's both Christian and Buddhist. It's in the Lotus Sutra and it's in the Gospel according to Luke. Pretty similar, slightly different.

[37:09]

The reason I mention this It's because part of this Blue Mountain thing for me was because I'm building an in-law for my younger son in the back of the property. And it's about to be done and he just, since it's not finished yet and his apartment is, the lease is up, so he moved in to my house until the in-law is ready. And so it's been a quite an interesting kind of journey, you know. So I feel with him kind of a similar feeling because we were kind of, I mean, a lot more estranged. I mean, I wouldn't say that I was estranged from Sojin at any point, but we were somewhat estranged. He was kind of lost, a little bit lost, like the story of the Prodigal Son. I don't know if you know the story.

[38:10]

Gospel according to Luke is the son is rebellious and doesn't want to do what the father says he should do and so on. He wants to do his own thing, but then doesn't do so well and is poor and forsaken. We would say a risk for homelessness nowadays in our area. So I have two sons. And so the story of the, probably the Luke, the one in the gospel, so the father sort of brings the, no, the son comes back and says, I'm sorry. And, you know, so on and so forth.

[39:15]

So there's a, a kind of reconciliation. And so the, the father gives him his inheritance and, The problem seems to be solved, but then the other brother, who had been a good son, you know, like my older son, you know, he really worked really hard. He got the work gene from me. My other son didn't. So in the story, the brother said, well, I've been doing, you know, really good. I'm in work. I did everything you told me to do and I'm not getting anything. So why is this guy, you know, who was a rebellious and did nothing good for nothing, you know, now you're, you're, uh, taking him in. So the story says, well, you know, he's your brother and he, we were going to lose him. So, uh, um, so there's, there's some, some, there's some resonance there.

[40:29]

Um, so anyway, so I decided with, uh, that I was going to, uh, build this inbo for, for Noam and, uh, keep him alive and safe. He doesn't have a, he smokes a lot of weed, but doesn't have any serious addictions like other people do. I've had friends with, you know, kids addicted to heroin and, you know, I don't know what else, but so he doesn't have that problem. But anyway, there's been a kind of reconciliation and his attitude has shifted like 180 degrees. And he was living in an apartment, really raunchy, poor place. And he didn't clean it. I mean, he has a dog and a cat, his two pets.

[41:31]

So one day I just decided, you know what, I can't take this anymore. I just went in and his bathroom was just like, you wouldn't believe it with the two pets and everything. So I just went and just hunkered in and I just got on the floor and started cleaning and I just left the bathroom spotless. And after that, his mind shifted and my mind shifted and I had to also, you know, because I would get really angry with him with his kind of rebelliousness and, you know, bring up a lot of anger. And so then he was angry and I was angry and we were both angry and that went nowhere. So just going, you have to do this and you have to do that and you have to do this and you have to do that. And don't you know this? You know, all that to the side wasn't working. So, but the cleaning his bathroom was, I couldn't believe how his mind just like this.

[42:42]

That's the kind of mystery. Um, so now he's on, he's on the, uh, I took a risk, you know, Sajan wasn't too, you know, you sure you wanted him there. Uh, you starting a new, uh, Zendo. You sure you wanted your son, you know. And I said, well, what else can I do? You know, because that was part of our history was always a split between, you know, are you a father or are you a priest? You know, are you going to take care of your family or are you going to leave your family and focus on practice? So that's kind of been a calling for me. And they grew up with that. And he used to come here and his mother would say, oh, you can't go to the, he wasn't allowed to come to the Zendo. But I would bring him sometimes, you know, but he felt bad because he felt torn. So now we don't have that problem anymore. So now the family and Zan are on the same side.

[43:48]

And so that's part of, I think, the healing that's taking place. And so to me, that's part of the story. It seems like it's part of my story and it's part of my relationship to my teacher and my relationship to my son and my son's relationship to me. And I don't know exactly what's going to happen or what the outcome's going to be, you know, but it doesn't matter. You know, I'm just stepping forward in faith. And knowing that what works is when somebody's coming at you with a lot of anger and vitriolity and hatred, Something has to turn inside of us and we go towards that but in peace and with love. And then the thing starts. I think we have to stop now. I'm sorry I'm going a little bit too long. I hope this wasn't too personal.

[44:52]

But can we do a few five-minute questions? Okay. Yes, Charlie. You're welcome. Well my first response was there is no door. We create, so it's a swinging door, so we open the door, right?

[46:07]

Because we create the separation between us and them, the inside and the outside. I like it in the inside, I don't like it in the outside. I like my world, but I don't like the outside world, right? So we create those walls in our minds between self and other, that's the door. So we have to open it, but it's just a way of speaking because there ain't no door. It's just vast, vast emptiness. So I would say that's the shape. A door is the shape of emptiness. It's the wind. Wherever there's smoke, there's a fire.

[47:16]

Yes. You're welcome. And I think sharing them in communities is an important part of how we find ourselves reflected and how we see people's paths. And it's just another reflection of my mind, interdependent, independent. And your story is full of the concept, right? You're interdependent in that you're suddenly intertwined in a dance. How do you resolve that dance? Where is self? Where is not self? Where are the two of you? Where is the one of you? important to remember. I was counseling a cancer patient once, and somebody had let her go to Highland Hospital without the correct insurance, and she ended up with a very big bill, and they were threatening her with very serious consequences. And I was in a position to be of help, and I said, I won't let you help me. And I said, but you're not.

[48:27]

Everything around you supports you, and you support everything around you. Now you and I are doing something together. What would we do? What would you want? Do you know what you want? And so when I found the space and understand interdependency and independency in the same breath, that's when community gets created and that's when compassion can flow. And that's when both of us settle together in the system, in space. And I think it's critical that we understand that, especially in these times. So thank you very much. Thank you. How's the non-prodigal son? He's doing well. He's working hard. But he understood when I told him first that I was going to do this, he said, Dad, I totally understand. Don't worry about me. You need to help him.

[49:28]

He needs help. And we just help who needs help. So he was very mature at first. Now he's really jealous, you know. So he's not talking to me for a little while, you know. So I'm giving him the space. And I understand that he's feeling like, you know, like the story from Luke, you know, the older son saying, well, you know, I've been a good son. I've done everything you told me to do, you know, which is not exactly the case with my son. But more or less, he's done more and more. Exactly. Well, you, the song has hurt me talking about them, you know, for a long time. Um, so, but he did, uh, he's doing very well. And so he, but he would say he's unhappy because he said, well, I've been a good, a good son and I'm not getting rewarded. And the one who was a bad son is getting rewarded.

[50:29]

How is that supposed to be? You know? So that's where he's at right now, and I'm just giving him the space and the time to work through that one. Right. Right. But he's, you're welcome. But he's the older brother. He's more mature. It'd be good for him. I mean, I think he'll, I think he will mature as a result of this once, you know, he gets over the jealousy. Yes. Last question. When you're you, then Zen is Zen. So when, when am I not

[51:32]

Ah, right. So that's the big self and the small self. So when he says, when you are you, it means when you are you is your big self, your open self, your generous self, which is when we feel most ourselves, you know, in big mind is when we really feel at home and we feel truly ourselves in the sense of Buddha nature. not in the cells of our small identity or our national identity or our gender identity. Although all those things are important, right? But ultimately, it's where we find our home is in our big mind. That's what he means by you when you is you. Thank you very much.

[52:23]

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