I am proud of the case that you have allowed to talk to us through our existence. Well, I've been doing all the talking. And so today I'd like to discuss with you two things. One is the change in our schedule yesterday afternoon, how you felt about that. And the other is any questions you have about what I've been talking about during my lectures. So at first I would like to see what your response is to the schedule, yesterday afternoon's schedule.

[01:02]

If you have any feeling about it. I really appreciate it. I thought it was very nice. Gave me a feel for... Reminded me of something that I used to do with a friend up in a cabin up in the woods. I appreciate it. think about it in those blocks.

[02:05]

So I liked it in that way. The one thing that I was aware of is that it was not as quiet because of everybody rustling. And this has been a very quiet machine in a lot of places. And I really appreciated that. And it was much more rustling. Getting up and down. Getting up and down and moving. It was a little hard for me to concentrate. I probably would have been better if I turned around. But then I couldn't have seen what everybody was doing. I only wanted to turn around and face out. Although it was... Actually, it was busy, but it was... I felt that it was pretty discreet.

[03:05]

Everybody was pretty discreet. And it seemed to flow very well. My feeling is that it was very quiet, but it went very smoothly. And what I found, it was very freeing. There was no time constraint. I didn't have to sit for 40 minutes. It felt like it just opened up and it made it easier to sit longer. I just like to... I like it very much. I can see it happening. Several people sat through the whole thing. Michael? and also being together with them.

[04:10]

But what Kin Hin thought, I did it once, and I did it longer, and I had a chance to get into the Kin Hin like that. I had that before. Yeah, I liked it a lot. Sometimes I think that when we do Zazen, Kinyin, Zazen, Kinyin, we think too much in terms of time. You know, 40 minutes is going to be over, then I got 10 minutes of Kinyin, 40 minutes of Zazen. And this, for me, was more spacious and less, you know, less rhythmical and more spacious, in a sense. Well, less of a defined rhythm. Yeah, right. Also, there was a point where I just kept falling asleep, and I had a hard time just staying awake and so forth.

[05:16]

This is my first three-day session. I've only done one day. And I was looking forward to it with a lot of mixed feelings, trepidation, and enthusiasm. And I felt that I had this pretty And I was putting that into the future, as I was supposed to. And suddenly here it was confronting a chance to practice a three hour straight sitting. And so I took it as that challenge, but the weight of the universe did descend upon my legs.

[06:55]

So I had to be very careful, no praise, no blame, and permit myself to get up and walk. And I found it a marvelous experience and it really helped break the 40-minute habit and that 40-minute mindset. I was going to say that the difference between that and Tangario is that in Tangario there's no kin-hin. No kin-hin. Tangario is the entrance examination to the monastery, and you sit for, well, for a practice period you sit five days, from five to seven days, and you just, zazen starts, and then you have morning zazen, and then, with no kinhin. And then you have a breakfast and a break.

[07:59]

And then you have the morning sitting, which goes till service. But there's no kin-hin. And the same all day long. But you can uncross your legs if you want. People do that. Sit the best way you can. But there's no kin-hin. You can go to the bathroom if you have to. And people do it. I remember Suzuki Osho's lecture saying, he said, when I was doing Tangario at Ehechi, he said, I was very fortunate because I used to have to go to the bathroom a lot. He said, I didn't try to do it, he said, I was just fortunate. My nature. But everybody who goes to Asahara does this. And we've all survived. We're all still here.

[09:03]

With Tangari, the people doing regular schedule, they come in, sit in the morning, and sit in the evening? Yeah, the people doing the regular students. So you've got people coming in and out during your Tangari? Yeah. You're not there just... No, they come in, sit down, and they do all the things that they normally would do in the Zendo. But when they leave, you stay. What about services? Yeah, you do the service. You do everything they do. Except leave. Except leave. But for the retreat, there's only one day of tangario. And everybody sits it. Whether they sat, you know, regular tangario or not, before, everybody sits it. That's what we used to do. We used to... Every time there's a practice period, the new students sit their Tongariyo. And we used to sit the last day of Tongariyo with everybody. But then that changed, and Baker Oshi became... But that was nice.

[10:14]

Nice to do that. It really reinforces people, their Tongariyo. and gives everybody else a little taste again. So that's usually the crossing over point, or the entrance examination to a place, a practice place, is usually Tangario, from one to seven days, whatever people decide. I think for us just that, you know, I don't question everybody else's enthusiasm. I mean, in some senses it was good. It was easier to discipline us, I'm not surprised about that. I think it's nice. I spent a lot of time thinking, well, should I get out early? You can sit a couple more minutes. Right. Then that's the biggest reason, I think, why we have a schedule. It just takes it out of your, you know, should I do it or when should I do it, should I do it now?

[11:18]

And you don't have to deal with that. And it makes it a lot easier. But there's something to be said for both sides. And I'm glad that you said that for that side, because it's true. And neither side is... I don't believe that either side is wrong. Both sides are right for what they have going for them. And In the past, Suzuki Roshi was convinced that the way we do it with 40 minute periods is the correct way. For that and other reasons, various reasons, get into ego and sense of self and self-centeredness and so forth. It takes all that out of the picture.

[12:20]

and makes a standard, some kind of standard. So when I think about these two sides, you know, I'm not convinced that this is, that we should suddenly change our ways, you know, but I do want to see what this way has to it. because I've always been convinced of the other way. Even in the back of my mind, I know that there's something to this other way which has a lot of validity to it. One of the things that I used to think about from time to time is to have a sasheen that doesn't have a fixed, very much fixed to it. And people just come in and out for a week whenever they can, you know. And do whatever they can with it.

[13:27]

And it's going the whole time. Maybe all day and all night. Somebody's always sitting zazen during that time. And people just come and go. And that kind of a flow with their daily life. That's actually the basis of this kind of thing that we did. It's not unprecedented. The thing I'm talking about, I don't know about any precedent for, but having the one long period of people doing kin-hen or whatever, you know, is historical. It's considered Dogen's original way. before our zazen got developed by the Soto sect and became systematized the way it is now. But it's gone through many changes.

[14:30]

You know, zazen in practice has gone through many, many changes. And we don't even know what all those changes are because there are times when it's been the opposite of what it is now. The Rinzai used to be more like the Soto way, and the Soto used to be more like the Rinzai way. And then they changed. It's interesting. But we tend to think that things have been the way they are from beginningless beginning. But it's not so. And Soto Zen practice has changed a lot since the Meiji era in Japan. Because that changed everything around. So there are a lot of people in Japan, not a lot, there are some people, some priests in Japan who are interested in looking at Dogen's original way. And Zuigakuin is a temple that was built recently just to practice Dogen's, what people consider was Dogen's original way.

[15:37]

Ben Doho, it's called. Ben Doho Sashin is what they call that kind of sashin, what they've been doing. And Ekai, remember Ekai? He's been doing that in Japan. And he's been talking to me about it a bit. He said that there are no Zazen periods, it's just the period of Zazen. And then people come into the Zendo, when the Han goes, calling people Zendo, they just come in at their own pace. There's no pressure. It's a kind of no pressure Sashin. And people sit as long as they want. And so the advantage to it is that new people do what they can do and older people do what they can do.

[16:51]

So everybody's doing what they can do according to their own limits or their own ability or experience. Instead of lumping everybody together, according to one standard. And people get up and do kin-hin. And the whole thing has a much slower pace. And it's tied in more with the day, the way the day goes. People sleep in zendo. And when it's dawn, they get up, rather than a certain time. And they sit up in bed and do zazen. That's traditional in the monastery. First thing you do is sit up and do zazen. And then when you hear the first bird is when zazen is over. You like that, don't you?

[17:55]

And then the whole day goes according to the cycle of the day. When the sun goes down is when you do the zazen, something like that. So the whole day is zazen. Everything you're doing is connected to everything, what's happening inside is connected to what's happening outside. And so you're, it's a complete kind of, this is what Dogen is emphasizing, daily life in zazen is the same. You know, daily life in zazen, is that your daily life flows with the zendo. But it's a kind of monk's practice. to do it that way, or sashin kind of practice. But, I think there's a lot of advantage to, as lay practice, to do something like that so that your life and zazen is connected more, ways of connecting more.

[18:57]

We haven't really thought that out very well. We haven't made any attempt to change things the way they were presented to us. But that's happening, little by little. So for me, this change that we did yesterday is just a little experiment in that direction. We'll see what that's like. You were just saying about the rhythm of the day. I thought about that a lot, especially how our schedule stays the same all year long, and the sunrise is certainly different. But, you know, the reason our schedule has to stay the way it is is because we all have to be at work at the same time. If our work schedule changed with the solstice, that'd be great. Which, I guess, is why I really like

[19:59]

I think they're both important, and I think a real healthy practice has both sides of it, just as a real healthy practice has the times when you come to the Zen Dojo to sit, and the times when you sit at home. And because I sit a lot at home, the rhythm, at first I tried, I like to get up early anyway, and I like to go to bed early, it's just my rhythm. I started with my own schedule, get up at six o'clock and sit and then start my day. And then I realized that I was just really having my house schedule instead of the Zendo schedule. And then I started saying, well, why can't I get up just an hour earlier and go to the Zendo? And I realized that really isn't what I was after. I really wanted to find my sitting in a rhythm of my daily life. And so I'm sort of relaxing that a little bit, but then there's always that tension that you lose when you don't go as scheduled.

[21:07]

But I think it's really important to have both sides, and I think you can err one way or the other. It's like lack of ease and uprightness. Within uprightness you have to have ease, otherwise it's too strict. And within ease you have to have... Did I say that? You know what I mean? One reinforces the other. No, you haven't finished. The only thing I was going to say is I think that's having that space and almost having that space imposed upon us to find ourselves in our practice. Someone said, sitting in that period was very alone but very together. I think that's real important to really, ultimately it comes back to what? Our responsibility. And we get a lot of mixed feelings when we have to be, you know, or if you don't come every day to the Zen Dojo, it's really up to you.

[22:11]

You say something like what Diane said, but in addition to that, you say it's kind of, you make it sound like as though it's easy, but it's also difficult practice because you have to be very sensitive and aware to the rhythms of your body and knowing exactly what it's trying to say and what it's telling you. So in that sense, I think it's not such an easy practice. No, it's not. It's a very mindful practice. You have to be very mindful. I think it was, for me, much more difficult. It made me aware of how dependent I am on the schedule, and on this place, and on the people here, because it was very difficult for me to sit and not be here. And when there is now an obligation, an expectation, it made me aware of that. But when you can depend on yourself, then you don't mind depending on your schedule.

[23:57]

It helps us schedule. But I think it's good for everybody, if you go someplace, you go on a vacation or go someplace where you don't have a zendo, to be able to keep the same kind of strictness in a practice that you would when you're here. That's really good for you. Very good. practice, because then you see, you know, well, I'm attached to, you know, somebody making me do something, but make yourself do it. That's best. Then it's not a problem. You don't have to have a problem. I think most of us have a problem with schedule when we don't have our own motivation so strongly, when we're not able to do it so strongly ourself. When we have that ability to really practice on our own, we don't mind the schedule so much.

[25:21]

It's not something that we're up against. One time, Category gave a talk once, If Zen makes your life more complicated, then there's something wrong with the practice. Zen is supposed to help you simplify your life. And that was the year at the time for me where I was having a great deal of trouble. Not so uncommon. But my life seemed to be extremely complicated as it was, and little by little, that lecture that he gave on them, I was doing a training period, and I just said, this is crazy.

[26:24]

I can't do this any longer. And it was the first time that I actually stopped doing something. I always kept saying when I started this machine, no matter what, I was going to continue and I was going to finish, no matter what. And I don't really feel bad about it. And I said, no, this is my decision. I'm not going to finish this training period. And little by little, I stopped practicing. And that went on for a number of years. And somehow, that was in the back of my mind, that if it's making my life harder, there's something wrong with it. And something about what I mentioned before about practicing in the woods with, you know, when I started practicing again, it was with this friend of mine who was into I don't know exactly what he was into, but we would sit by a lake and listen to him.

[27:26]

If you ask me, I might give you a different answer. Huh? If you ask me, I might give you a different answer. I'm not exactly sure what my question is. What's the different answer? Well, if you say, that if your life gets more complicated, that you blame it on the practice. That's a kind of cop-out. If your life is complicated, it's because of the way you live your life. It has nothing to do with the practice. Practice is an element, just like all things are elements in our life.

[28:28]

And how we use those elements makes our life either simple or complicated. Eugene? I think, to me, in hearing the other people talk, that there's a big, I think there's a significant difference between beginners and people who've sat a lot longer. There is. I was more like Sue, and unfortunately I sat on the macho side here so that nobody... Look at all the heavies over on this side. But then I was surprised, and this happens at the beginning to me, that sometimes I'm ready to get up after ten minutes, but I'm sitting there, and then I'm encouraged by

[29:36]

I went more than 40 minutes, which is kind of surprising. But then, the other, the other genet, whatever it was, 10 hours, 3 hour period, by going longer one time, it was like you got something like a bird, a trained bird, some kind of a signal so that you wouldn't have to be so conscious yourself. Am I making myself clear? Well, it's sort of clear. I understand what you're saying. Some kind of signal that lets you know kind of where you are in the thing so that you're not completely at sea. You're not supposed to wear your watch in the Zendo, didn't you know that? You're not supposed to wear your watch in the Zendo.

[30:54]

Well, I think that being at sea, you can get used to that and find yourself there. If you're not left at sea, then you never know what it's like to be left at sea. It's another kind of experience to just be out there not knowing how much time is left or anything like that. After all, for thousands of years people didn't have watches. They told time by certain other indications. The usual way, you know, is to have a long piece of incense, the old way, and light a long piece of incense. When the incense burns down, then there's the bell. But you don't know how long that is either, you know. But there's something else in there that I wanted to respond to.

[32:02]

Whatever the conditions are, it's good to be able to adapt to them. That's the point. We want help in certain ways, and we do. We may give help in certain ways, but this is a space of time where it's very unconditioned, really very unconditioned, and you find yourself in that space. Find your way in that space. I think there's another thing that's kind of... without comparing yourself to other people.

[33:17]

Right. And then it was hard for everybody to do that. I thought that was what was nicest about it, that I was free to do what I wanted, just as I do whatever I want, on my own. And yet there was company and cohesion. So, that's how it is. I tend to agree with Diane that it's good to have both. That makes me feel good to have the structure and then at some point you take away the structure and just have this big open space. What do you think, Bill? What do you think? I was feeling very sluggish Because when you said that, you said something about having both and being able just to do whichever comes up.

[34:19]

To have a schedule and have no metered schedule of time. To do both? To do both? Yeah. And to just, you know, to take them as they come. If we're sitting 40 minute periods, to sit 40 minute periods. If we're sitting longer time, to do that. And to feel at home. Either way. And I really felt that I've enjoyed it. It actually started earlier on than that longer period for me when I was able to give all of the time keeping to someone else. It's a big part of the training position that I have to know what's happening to know when things should be happening and so on. And also as Dawan, to just pay attention relentlessly to those things. And the Sashins that we've done, it's part of the Sashin director's job to know that.

[35:26]

And with this, having a timekeeper, this is the first time we've done that, it's just been sweet to not have to I pay so close attention to it all the time. I feel like I've been able to pay attention to other things. We're free to look and notice more of what's happening, what's going on. There's another aspect to Bendoho Sesshin, and that is that the periods are not necessarily set as to how long they are, but the timekeeper It was one of the more responsible people, an older person, who would judge when to ring the bell. Narasaki Roshi, I remember there were two brothers, two Narasaki Roshi brothers from Zuioji in Japan.

[36:30]

And they're both abbots, I guess. and they're considered pretty good teachers in the Soto school. The younger one was here last year. He didn't come here, but he was at Green Gulch and Sun Center, passed through. Now the younger one is at Minnesota for the Sashin and he was going to do a Bendoho type Sashin. But Ekai says that he doesn't do a pure Bendoho type Sashin because he's still attached to the Soto way of doing things. But he's going to be coming back here and I hope he'll come here. I'm going to try and get him to come here. see what he has to say about things if he talks. But he will, I'm sure he'll be going to Tassajara and he'll be in San Francisco, so if he doesn't come here, you should try and see him in San Francisco.

[37:44]

But he might be able to come here. I've asked people to try and set it up for him to come here. One other aspect is that walking is very slow. So when you come in and out of the zendo, you don't walk in a usual way, but it's almost like, if you're going out the door, it's almost like kin-hin. You just kind of slowly disappear out the door. I notice when we come in and out of the zendo, at times other than the regular times, We're rushing to our seat, you know, and we're rushing out, and that's... we just lose our sense of what's happening in the zendo. And just walking around, you know, if the doan is going to give somebody something or something. It's like you forget that you're in the zendo and you've got this goal, and you rush, you go with this pace that's goal-oriented rather than mindfulness-oriented.

[38:56]

So I would ordinarily, you know, forget all this other stuff, just ordinarily when you come in and out of the zendo, to do it in a more slow pace, not kin him, but in a real careful way, slowly, step by step, so that you're really conscious and mindful of your steps. And so that you're in harmony with everybody else in the zendo. Just the feeling of being in harmony with what everybody else is doing in the zendo. Do you think that we should do this again this afternoon? Want to do it again? Yes. Okay. Maybe this time, when we get up to do kinhin, it'd be okay to go outside and do kinhin around the outside of the zendo. Only that, no kin-hin inside of that?

[40:03]

No, either way. Either way. But you could do. But when you go outside, you do kin-hin all the way out. In other words, you don't just walk outside at your goal-oriented pace. But you walk outside, slowly, put on your shoes, and continue kin-hin outside. And then when you come in, it's the same way. It might be, but let's try it. If they're walking that slow, that'd be so nice. Let's try it first. We will be ending the sesshin at the end of that three hour period. It might be nice if everybody were here. Yeah, we should end a little early and then we all come in and sit down.

[41:05]

We end our unrestricted time and then we all come into the zendo and sit down together before we end for an undetermined period of time. How will we know when we're reaching the end? We'll send a bird to whisper in everybody's ear. We'll ring a bell, and that will mean everybody resume their seat. And then we'll sit for a period of time, and then we'll... Yeah. Yeah. Michael? Either way. Either way. Well, we don't, there's a pace that's not fast and not slow.

[42:35]

Zen pace. It's what? Zen pace. Zen pace. Maybe so, yeah. Zen pace. Now the Zen pace is with attention and If you go real slow, then everybody, the feeling is, God, when is he going to get here? What's he doing? You know, when is this going to end? And if it's too fast, you know, just, God! So, it shouldn't be either one of those. It should be attentive and some energy with it, but not too fast. Not... Quiet and contained. You have to find the right balance, what feels like a good pace. It's easy to get into a too energetic a thing.

[43:38]

That's easy, I do that myself, you know, I get a little too energetic when I'm doing it. But, a little slower than I do it when I serve. You haven't all seen me serve a son in a row. But with some verve, you know, but not, Not real. And not over energetic. And not real dawdling. Not real slow on. Too tedious. Sometimes when I approach you to serve you, you look almost frightened. Like you're going to dump it on me. Like it's starting to stop. Okay. Anything else? This is a question about your answers today. Oh, yeah. I forgot. When the energy moves on to the next life, does it all move on together?

[44:44]

What do you mean, all? Well, the energy that's raw now, is that all going to move on as a group? Raw energy? Is it going to move on to Is it grouping and one come on stage in the next life, or is it going to disperse? Well, that's a big question. I don't want to know. We'd be doing a lot of debate disservice if we spill the beans. But it's a good question. I don't know that there's an answer to it. This is in the realm of theory. This whole business is in the realm of theory. And I can talk to you about that. And I can bring that up some more. But I don't think I can deal with it right now. We're ready to end.

[45:44]

There's too much to talk about right now. But the theory is that the seeds, we have to talk about the alaya vijnana, the seed repository. which is the eighth consciousness. All the seeds are, that's the repository of all the seeds, and when they're activated, they sprout. And so the seeds that are stored are carried over. Maybe the same way genetically, genetic seeds are carried over and come to fruition in the next life. or whatever, however you describe it. It's all a kind of... It's a very interesting area, but it's... I don't know very much about it. But it's... I want to find out more about it.

[46:56]

So, it's a good thing to study, for us to study. Did you say the bad energy? No, she meant the complete. Oh, just any, you didn't say bad energy. How does it get, how does it happen? I just said one more question. Is this relevant? Okay. When you find out, wherever you are, will you let us know? You can find out for yourself. Yeah, the truth is we all know.

[47:34]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ