In 1988, from 1988 to 1993, And since that time, I have limited involvement with San Francisco Gen Center. But I still am a member of the Elders Council and the Abbots Group. is the present abbots and the former abbots who discuss, we meet and discuss various things like who should be ordained, who's going to lead the practice periods, and whose issues those are going to be and so forth.

[01:16]

So the former abbots are kind of an advisory group to the present abbots. the older members, a number of older members of Zen Center, plus the abbots, former abbots. And we discussed long ranging, perennial, unsolvable problems. But the main purpose of the, the main job of the of the Elders Council is to recommend the next abbot. Zen Center now has three abbots. When I was abbot we had two abbots. And before that there was one. So they keep multiplying because Zen Center is a big place and there's a lot of stuff going on that needs to be taken care of. So the last time I was at the last meeting

[02:22]

Our central abbot, Steve Stuckey, wanted each one of us, the members, to go around and he said, give us five questions. And I'll read you the questions. So this is directed to our teaching. So these are the questions. Actually, there are six questions. What is most satisfying in working well for you as a teacher? And what is problematic in not working well for you as a teacher? What is your own strength as a teacher? What is your edge or limitation as a teacher? How does training at Zen Center, we could transfer that to wherever we are, best serve the students.

[03:29]

And how does training at your Zen Center fail to serve the students? So those are interesting questions. And of course, we only have about one minute. So I've been thinking about these questions. And I thought I would say something about these questions here. I think they're somewhat relevant. I don't like talking about myself so much. I try to avoid that. But today I will talk about my own views on these six subjects. I may not get to all six of them, or I may mix them up, or may not look like I'm talking about them, but I am. So the first question is, What's most satisfying if I'm working well for you as a teacher? So, I had to think about that. I can think of various things. But, you know, when I give a talk, I like giving talks.

[04:30]

Because when I give a talk, I have to get down to the bottom of what I'm really talking about. Otherwise it's not satisfying for me. I don't like to talk about superficialities. I don't like to sound too profound, but it makes me get down to the bottom of what my practice is. So what is satisfying and working well? So I want to explain a little bit about how I see our Zen center. We say that in Rinzai Zen, the teacher is like a general leading his troops. And in Soto Zen, the teacher is like a farmer raising his crops or her crops.

[05:38]

So, it's very appealing to me. I don't feel like a general. I feel more like a farmer. And when we had our first Zen Center at Dwight Way in Berkeley, my ideal was to raise crops. We had a huge backyard, and so I spent all day for many years cultivating this garden and raising vegetables and I even sold them. And that was the beginning of the organic gardening movement back in the late 60s and 70s. And so I was really into this, you know, organic gardening. Big time. And I even had... I'd send a garbage man.

[06:48]

Send a garbage man. Bring me the garbage. And put it in my compost pile. So I was a real garbage scavenger. And I'd get cutties, you know, from the gardeners who mowed the lawns and the dividers in the middle of the street. And when the garbage man brought me the garbage, he brought his violin, and I played my recorder, and we played duets, and he went home, and we were both having a good time. But anyway, that was my passion. And to me, that's how I feel about my practice. I don't do that anymore for various reasons. I feel that my way of practicing with people is that the Zen center is the garden.

[07:49]

And all the plants are the people who come and practice here. So to me, This is like raising crops, you know, and each plant is totally different. Every one of these plants, everybody is totally different. And how you cultivate or bring out the highest quality in the plants is the most satisfying thing. To me, that's what satisfies me, is when I see everybody maturing and growing and the struggles that all these plants have. Without using artificial fertilizers and keeping everything well watered and healthy as much as possible.

[08:58]

When we went around and did our talks, I said the basis of my practice that I find most efficient or that works best for me is patience. Patience doesn't mean waiting for something. Sometimes it means waiting everything to allow, not force anything. So I've always disliked regimentation, trying to, you know, bring up all these crops in a uniform way. I don't think we we all develop, we all have our time sequence for development.

[10:13]

I think everybody has a time sequence for development. Some people develop very quickly, some people develop very slowly and in different ways and you cannot compare anybody to anybody else really. And to be able to recognize the time sequence in each individual. I remember when my son was about three, and we tried to get him to do, you know, maybe he was younger, maybe he was two, you know, and trying to get him to do something, he'd say, I'm not ready for that yet. So patience is actually the bottom line, you know, to allow everybody to mature in their own time and space.

[11:25]

And not to feel that because someone looks like they're not doing something that you want them to do, that you can force them to do it. So, this is how we have patience with each other. Because, you know, sometimes someone will come to me and say, I'm actually working with this person, but I can't hurry them up to reform. I can't hurry them up to change the way you would like to see them change, or the way you'd like to see them be. We have to accept everybody exactly the way they are. That's just automatic. You have to accept everybody the way they are.

[12:32]

Whether you like them, or don't like them, or think they should change, or can change, It's like, if you marry somebody, you should marry what you see. If you think, well, you know, I'll marry them and then they'll change and be the way I like them, that won't work. You have to accept them the way they are. So, just to accept everybody the way they are. That's compassion, but it's not pity. taking and identifying with the way people are. I know you're like that, but I'm like that too, even though I may not be expressing it in the same way you are, but I have that as well. I think that each one of us has within us all the experiences that everyone else has, basically, or the potential.

[13:42]

person acts or experiences. But it's not always manifest. But when we're open, we can see that, yes, I have that too. So we can be sympathetic with people rather than trying to make things work in a different way. Andrea and I were talking about her dog yesterday and she said, she chases the squirrel up the tree and then expects the squirrel to come down. That's stupid. Waiting for the squirrel to come down. So, I wrote a lot of things down here. The Lotus Sutra talks about this.

[14:44]

There's a chapter in the Lotus Sutra that talks about tall plants and short plants and watering plants and so forth. It talks about the growth of students and how you take care of everybody according to where they actually are. Really important. So, and Dogen, you know, in his Peihei Shingi, Shingi is like, in Japanese, like rules of practice, which is different, in a way, from his philosophical works, which we're usually more aware of, like the Shobo Genzo. But Shingi is like encouragement for practice. And he has a story about the head gardener, how the head gardener should practice.

[15:51]

And so this is, of course, a wonderful simile for Zen students. It's like how everybody should practice, but it's especially how the teacher practices. The teacher is in the center, and then the energy spreads in all directions. In the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Ancestor, Huineng, there's a wonderful poem, which I read periodically, that starts out, The master of the dharma should be like the sun in an empty sky radiating the dharma in all directions.

[16:56]

So that's like the center of the mandala. That's the center of the garden. And each one of us is a garden. Each one of us has a center. And it's exactly the same thing. This is the prototype of how each one of us actually is. We take care of ourselves in the same way that we take care of each other and the same way that we take care of our practice. It's all interlocking and interweaving mandalas. So I think the position of Ed Gardner is most difficult and toilsome and should be served by someone who has the way mind. This position should not be filled by someone who does not have the way mind. This person is always in the garden, sowing and cultivating according to the seasons. In this position, Buddha face, ancestor face, donkey feet and horse feet are manifest.

[18:01]

It is like being a farmer or a peasant, all day long plowing and hoeing, all day long carrying excrement and urine for fertilizing. Free from self-concern. Free from self-concern is the most important line here. Free from self-concern. You can't be a teacher unless you're free from self-concern. Unless you're always worried about yourself. Always limiting yourself. Always worried that you're giving too much. You can't worry that you're giving too much. Sometimes people say, well I have to save myself. feel depleted. But actually, if you totally give yourself, you're always completed. Because when you give your energy completely, you're fulfilled. The energy is not a store that you have, and when you give away the store, the store is empty, in that sense.

[19:09]

But when you give everything away, you unblock yourself so that the energy flows freely through. Reserving too much blocks energy. When you're totally giving everything away, then energy flows through you, and energy is unlimited. You know, a busy person, a person who's always taking care of many, many things, is the person you always ask to do something, because they always say, OK. And because they're unblocking, they're always giving away and letting go, letting go constantly. So you're always empty and fully filled at the same time. This is the secret of practice. Continuous practice is you're always unblocking and free from self-concern. You have to take care of yourself.

[20:14]

That's right. You have to take care of yourself the same way you take care of everybody else. And when you take care of everybody else, you're also free of self-concern. You just do your best. That's all. Everybody gets sick. Everybody dies. You can't help that. Everybody has problems. You can't help that. You just do your best. Always in the garden, sowing and cultivating according to the seasons. Well, according to the seasons means like sometimes things are going in one way and sometimes things are going in another way. But you pay attention to the way that things are going and go with them. You flow

[21:19]

with the currents. If you allow yourself to get upset, you get lost. In this position, muda phase, which is your true phase, ancestor phase, which is your true phase, donkey feet, which are your true feet, horses feet, which are your true feet, are manifest. It's like being a farmer. or a peasant, all day long plowing, just doing the work. Just do the work, that's all. You don't think about fame and gain. Or, I'm doing something important. All day long carrying excrement and urine for fertilizing. So, excrement and urine is like The stuff we don't like.

[22:20]

The stuff that stops us up. Our garbage mind. And we pour the garbage mind into the ground. and waiting the right moment of ripening for harvesting, careful not to miss the right time. Timing is everything, especially for a teacher with students. People say, well, how long does a student have to practice before they get to do this, blah, blah, blah? That's not it. How do you know when a student is ready? Well, it's like It's not a matter of some special time. You say, oh, I see.

[23:27]

Not as good as ripe. And it's interesting about the ripening process. For 10 years, somebody would just go along and there's something that's not quite ready yet. But then, one day, boom, it's ready. But you have to know when that is. So the teacher has to know the student's heart so they can tell exactly when the student is ready. But it's not like you're trying to know something. You just know. The person is walking a little bit differently, or holding themselves a little bit differently, or the look on their face is a little bit different. So then, when she plows the ground and sows the seeds, he doesn't wear formal Dharma robes or okesa.

[24:36]

He only wears white underwork robes, 13th century Japan. However, at the time when the community gathered to miss these activities. So as well as doing your work, when it's time to do the formal practice, you do the formal practice. And this is the difficult part for most people, most lay people, to be able to balance both of these aspects. When in the garden every morning and every evening he offers incense, bows and chants the name of the Buddha and makes a dedication to the Dragon Spirit and the Earth Spirit.

[25:40]

The Dragon Spirit controls the weather. So naturally you make an offering to the Dragon Spirit so that you have to encourage for the weather. from the crops and the earth spirit, the spirit of the ground to cooperate with you. So in other words, you're making a connection with the earth and the sky. So at night he sleeps in a cottage in the garden. Assistants and workers often change in the direction of the work leader, at the direction Indeed, the position of gardener has been served by renowned people who have had the way in mind.

[26:50]

Those who have small capacity or are ill-suited have not been put in this position. In the community of my lay master, Tiantong Rujing, an old man of Pu, Western Xiu district, was the first appointed to this position when he was over 60 years old. So here's an example. During this time, And the monks were joyful. So it's like when one person does it, it really presents themselves as a dedicated student. It inspires everybody and settles the community. My late master was deeply pleased. If we compare this old man poo with the abbots of many monasteries, they can't come up to We sometimes think of high positions and low positions, but actually all positions are the same.

[27:56]

They're just different activities within your position. I'd much rather be out in the gardens working than going to a meeting. So, more and more I realize or I can actually express myself when I think about how it works. Let me continue here.

[29:01]

What is most problematic and not working well for you as a teacher? I think about that question. I think, wow, that's quite a question. And then I think, am I a teacher? If I was a teacher, I probably have a problem. So I better be careful not to be a teacher. You know, there's a koan in the Blueprint Record where the teacher says, in all the land of Tong, there are no Zen teachers. And the student says, well, what about all those people who are doing all this teaching? He says, I didn't say there was no Zen. I just said there was no teachers. So this is a wonderful koan. The best teachers don't teach or don't call themselves teachers.

[30:09]

They just do what they do and people come and practice together. That's best. So we make a big mistake, you know. We have to make this mistake and call ourselves teachers in order to identify, you know, for people. practice with Suzuki Roshi for seven years is where I get my style. He was a teacher, but he never really taught us anything. So, teaching is like an exemplar more than a teacher.

[31:13]

Because the more you teach, the more you're putting stuff in. So, sometimes people say, what did you learn? What did you learn? And I think, well, learning is really wonderful. Learning is great. We should all be learning. But learning is not sin. Learning is terrific. We should all be learning stuff. But learning is not Zen. Zen is education. So, for a teacher, to educate means to allow people to grow. It's like a flower, open it. How does your, how does your, in the Katagiri version, you always used to say, Let the flower of your life force bloom.

[32:16]

Let the flower of your life force bloom. That's Zen. And learning can be an obstacle. Because when we're learning, we think we're getting something. But Zen is, if you don't already have it, you're not going to get it. A short bamboo is short, a long bamboo is long. If you don't already have it, you're not going to get it. You're not going to get it by learning. So where is it? Ross? And learning about the self? To study the self is to forget the self.

[33:19]

You can learn as much as you want about the self. No problem. Go ahead. I didn't say there's anything wrong with learning. I said it's great. To study the self So rather than putting something in, we unlearn. Zen is unlearning. So, you know, we learn in order to have some sense of security. Think about it. We're all worried about our security. to let go of our security in practice. We do have to pay attention to that.

[34:23]

We pay attention to our security, but the problem is we become too attached to it. So we can't progress in living our life on a spoon. So the next question is, what is your own strength as a teacher? Well, that's not for me to say. But I would say, what do I feel? Well, I think to be unassuming, unassuming means to let everything present itself before I decide what it is.

[35:34]

And, you know, Duggan talks about it in Bed-Doha. Jijuyu means self-fulfilling samadhi, self-joyous samadhi, which includes being open to, how would I say this, being a vehicle for light. and lighting the lamps of others. To me that's the most satisfying thing. To be a vehicle for light and extending that to others to light their lamps.

[36:44]

To me that's our practice. And then, what is your edge or limitation as a teacher? I don't know. I can't say that I know that. I hope I don't know that. You know, when I had my mountain sheep ceremony, 1984, I think it was, as Abbott, I said, just standing upright in this place without knowing who I am or where I am. And somebody said, you don't know who you are?

[37:57]

But you don't know where you are? That's not it. Without knowing. Standing up, right here, without knowing who I am or where I am. Without being lost. If you know who you are, that's not who you are. When the emperor asked Bodhidharma, who are you? He said, I don't know. That's the first poem on the Buddha's record. I don't know. What is your edge, your limitation? I don't know. Thank goodness. If you know, that might be good. So how does training at the Berkeley Zen Center serve the students?

[39:06]

I don't know that either. I hope everybody is well served. If you like his food, great. We're happy to serve everybody as long as they like it. And how does the training in San Francisco, I mean, bring them to the center? Say hello to some of the students as well. Do you have any idea? We have about five minutes. How is it not serving everybody? I mean, I'd like to hear that. I won't be mad at you if you tell me. I would like to see the chanting improve. OK. There's always room for improvement. I agree.

[40:10]

There's a lot of things that are continuing. You know, here's the thing about a formal, quasi-formal or semi-formal practice. Because if you don't, then it all gets lost. And it's really hard to do that. It's hard to keep, you know, repeating, this is the way, you know, this is the way you sound the bell. You don't ever hit the bell. You sound the bell. You bring out the voice of the bell. The bell has a beautiful voice. How are you going to coach or, you know, inspire the bell to speak its beautiful voice? When you hit it, it says, ow! I remember, if you keep hitting the makoge like that, it will have a heart attack. So, you know, we have to treat things.

[41:12]

But Sota Zen and Rinzai Zen, we do appreciate Sota Zen, but I'm not attached to Sota Zen. And I think that's our basis for working for our practice, but our practice evolves. It just keeps evolving, little by little. But anyway, the, you know, practice of Sota Zen is to really take care of things and be careful about things. And that bell, you know, it's like your head. You wouldn't hit yourself, you wouldn't hit your girlfriend like that, would you? I mean, you might. But you wouldn't hit your lover. Like, how would you approach, if that bell was your lover, how would you approach that bell to sing a beautiful song? You can do this technique and that technique, and techniques are okay, but that's not the basis.

[42:38]

The basis is how you connect with the bell to bring out the voice of the bell. In the same way, you bring out the best qualities in each other. How do we bring out the best qualities, truest qualities? Mr. Bell is inspiring us to do that. This isn't just a response to, you know, how could Berkeley's Ed Center service veterans, but to the whole talk. I really appreciated the way you talked about most everything, which mostly you stayed on the very first question, and it was beautiful the way you kind of spoke about your own experience with us. And all the questions seem to be a variety of the same sort of strength and weakness, sun and moon, you know.

[43:41]

But I wanted to ask or actually just comment on when you, it asks what are you most confident about in your own teaching and what is your edge? And on the first one you answered it from your heart and experience and on the second one you said, I don't know. And I just wondered if you could, I'm not asking you to answer it here, but if anyone could answer that in just the same spirit, which is, what am I less confident about, or where do I feel a little bit shaky? Instead of one is I don't know and one is a kind of fullness of expression. Yeah, that's good. You know, I don't know. I just wanted to say something about I don't know. I don't know is the question or the statement that opens up knowledge. Because when you say, I don't know, you clear the sky. You clear the space.

[44:44]

When you say, oh, I know, then you fill the space. When you say, I don't know, you open the space, and then something can come out. So first I said, I don't know, and then something came out. So I don't know is really a very good, one of our fundamental So actually, I don't know if it's really the basis of practice. It's not a negative thing. It's a positive thing. There are a lot of Buddhas in the Buddha Pantheon, but Vairajana is like the central Buddha.

[46:10]

Vairajana is like the Dharmakaya. It stands for the Dharmakaya. Dharmakaya is our true self, at the bottom of our self. It's like the Dharmakaya has no special shape or form, but everything is it. All the shapes and forms are the shapes and forms of Vairochana. So it's the Dharmakaya. And Vairochana is in the center of the mandala. And what Vairochana, Dharmakaya Buddha does is just sit and radiate light. So that, to me, that's the model of the teacher. In the transmission ceremonies, the teacher takes a seat and says, I am now Vairojana Buddha, sitting on the lotus throne of a thousand petals.

[47:12]

On each petal sits a Bodhisattva. So to me, that's the mandala of practice.

[47:19]

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