Well, this morning I'm going to comment on a talk of Suzuki Roshi's which I've commented on before. You may or may not remember. I like to comment on Suzuki Roshi's talks, not just because Suzuki Roshi was our teacher, but because he always emphasizes the non-duality of our practice, and he really doesn't talk about anything else. And I think that he doesn't stray into other venues. He doesn't get lost. He doesn't aggrandize himself or our practice.

[01:12]

very simple and whatever he says in such a simple way has many repercussions and can be commented on in so many ways. was called Brown Rice is Just Right. Rather than talking about the grandeurs of enlightenment, he talks about chewing brown rice, the enlightened practice of chewing brown rice. And it's like how we understand emptiness.

[02:27]

What is emptiness? The meaning of emptiness. And what is the meaning of form? And what is the meaning of chewing? Everything is chewing something. So he says, how do you like zazen? I think it may be better to ask, how do you like brown rice? When we were developing the practice at Tassajara, brown rice was introduced as, not by him, by his students. as the main sustenance of our meals. Most people eat white rice. In Japan, almost everyone just eats white rice.

[03:31]

In Stuttgart, you're actually brought up on white rice. But the students were fascinated with macrobiotic macrobiotic movement, which featured brown rice and unrefined foods, which I think is just wonderful. We've kind of gone full circle from in the beginning we would eat brown rice and whole wheat bread and raw vegetables. Then, the progress of the evolution or involvement of Zen Center, people started eating white rice, white bread, cooked vegetables, and now it's coming back around to eating healthy food again.

[04:36]

Suzuki Roshi was not used to eating brown rice, but he appreciated our effort to eat whole foods, unrefined foods. and he even ate brown rice too. Now in Japan, brown rice is becoming somewhat popular in certain circles, some monastic circles, brown rice is more introduced. But anyway, so this is kind of why he's talking about brown rice, because when you're in a monastery, Besides zazen, you think about eating, especially. When is the next meal?

[05:41]

So, I remember when Alan and I went to this conference, Soto Zen Conference. about a month ago, and we would have a meeting, and then we'd have breakfast, and then we'd have a meeting, and then we'd have lunch, and then we'd have a meeting, and then we'd have dinner. So it's like, gee, here we are eating again. Oh, here we are eating again! It's like this thing that happens in between all of our activities is eating again. So, this is a very important aspect of our life. So I think it's better to ask, how do you like brown rice?

[06:44]

Zazen is too big a topic. Brown rice is just right, actually. Actually, there's not much difference between zazen and brown rice. When you eat brown rice, you have to chew it, and unless you chew it, it is difficult to swallow. People used to eat, they would say you should chew each bite a hundred times, and then swallow, and then eat another bite, but that takes too long. But anyway, When you chew it very well, your mouth becomes part of the kitchen and actually the brown rice becomes more and more tasty. So the more you chew it, the tastier it becomes. Part of the kitchen, I don't know what he means by that exactly, but there's an old saying that the mouth of a monk is like an oven.

[07:46]

Everything comes in and gets cooked. When you eat white rice, when we eat white rice, we don't chew so much, but that little bit of chewing feels so good that naturally the rice goes right down our throats. There are a number of interesting allusions to rice, like the sixth patriarch, when he was in the monastery, the fifth patriarch, The fifth ancestor sent him back to the kitchen to pound rice. And then when he was ready to have a secret meeting with him, he said, is the rice cooked? So when we digest food completely, what will become of it?

[08:48]

It will be transformed. changing its chemical nature and will permeate our whole body. So we're actually changing the nature of what we eat. And the chemical nature changes. And this is a transformative process. We exchange or we transform the energy or release the energy from one form to another. In the process it dies within our body. To eat and digest food is natural to us as we are always changing. This organic process is called emptiness. So emptiness, one way to express the meaning of emptiness is as transformation. Everything is empty.

[09:51]

All forms are empty. meaning all forms are in the process of transformation. So heating is one expression of that transformation, but nothing exists as it is or as it has existed from moment to moment, even though everything still looks the same, because the process takes time. And when we look at something, we say, well, I saw that yesterday, it looks just like today, just like it did yesterday. But that's because of our association. If we really had no association, or was not depending on that association, when we saw something, we would see how it's different today than it was yesterday, even though it looks exactly the same. Today you look the same as you did yesterday, but not really, not completely.

[10:56]

So the reason we call it emptiness is that it has no special form. It has some form, but that form is not permanent. While it is changing, it carries on our life energy. So this is the endless transformation of all forms, that's why all forms are empty, but also we not only eat with our mouth, we eat with our eyes, we eat with our ears, we eat with our sense of touch, we eat with our nose, So when we eat with our eyes, we are looking for something and making judgments.

[12:00]

We like to see certain things. We don't like to see other things. We like to hear certain things, like music and beautiful things. and we don't like to hear ugly things, we don't like to hear disastrous results. So like and dislike comes with our desire through our senses. So when we want to see something beautiful, we create a desire to eat something beautiful through our eyes or through our ears. So our senses are five mouths and our mind is another mouth, and this eating

[13:04]

goes on continuously, so it's not just with our food but ear food, eye food, nose food, sensual touch food, and so forth. So we're always looking for that food and so this eating process and this transformation process is going on Buddha is talking about is this ... it's hard to get enough, you know, when we form a habit of desiring certain things we can't get enough of those things. And so this leads to what we call unsatisfactoriness.

[14:07]

So how do we control, how do we take care of this? How do we control, I think is a good word, self-control, but how do we let go of this craving and find satisfaction where we are. So this is Sashin. In Sashin, Suzuki Roshi once talked about it like a turtle. Turtle brings in its legs and its head and is no longer feeding, simply pure existence. So Cieszyn is like no longer feeding. We're not feeding our eyes, we're not feeding our ears, or our sensual touch, or our nose, sense of smell.

[15:14]

We're bringing in our feelers, our sensates, our senses, and Giving them a rest. Actually, we're giving our mind a rest. Because the eye doesn't see, the ear doesn't hear, the nose doesn't smell. These are simply ports. It's the mind that hears, the mind that sees, the mind that feels. So, giving our mind a rest. and simply existing without sensory, without being attached to sensory input, even though that does happen while you're sitting, while you're in Zazen.

[16:17]

We do make, we do have, still have vestiges of desire. our effort is not to be attached to them. So strictly speaking, our food should be very plain. But, you know, we like to show off. The cooks like to cook wonderful things, so we don't complain about that unless it becomes too egotistical. And I remember Tatsagami Roshi at Tassajara saying, our food should really be good, really well done. We make this effort, but not so much effort that it excites our senses.

[17:24]

You know, in the old monastic life you were not supposed to eat onions or garlic or hot peppers or things that would excite your sexuality. I don't know if those things do really, I think it's the mind that excites your sexuality, your imagination. So it's a kind of cool state, cooling off actually, that's Sashina's kind of way of cooling off. One definition of nirvana is the cool state, not annihilation, which is a kind of It's just not excitable and not giving into desire.

[18:29]

So he says, we know that we are empty and also that this earth is empty. The forms are not permanent and you may wonder, what is this universe? But this universe has no limit. Emptiness is not something you can understand through a space trip. In other words, space is not empty. We say empty space, but there are two kinds of space. One is empty space, which is form. like the universe, even though it's very rarefied and in outer space there's no gravity, so to speak, it's still form. But space, real empty space, is just that space in which everything can transform. If there was not, the real emptiness is the space in which everything

[19:36]

can transform, otherwise everything would be the same and maintain its form forever. So, emptiness is not something you can understand through a space trip. Emptiness can be understood when you are perfectly involved in chewing rice. This is actual emptiness, completely involved in chewing rice. So, this is the true simplicity of our practice. just doing what you're doing. I remember Suzuki Goshi saying, because people wonder, how can I practice when I leave the zendo? And he said, don't think about practicing when you leave the zendo. Just go about your business, but do everything thoroughly. Whatever you do, do it thoroughly. So when you chew your rice, chew it thoroughly.

[20:43]

So chewing rice is a kind of metaphor for whatever you're doing. Chew your rice thoroughly. Whatever you do, do it thoroughly. Just be one with your activity. Then there's no you. There's no self. The most important point is to establish yourself in a true sense without establishing yourself on delusion and yet we cannot live or practice without delusion. Delusion is necessary but delusion is not something on which you can establish yourself. This is where Suzuki Roshi is, I think, very right on, where many teachers would say, eliminate delusion and just establish yourself on enlightenment.

[21:49]

No, I mean, yes, you don't establish yourself on delusion but you can't live without being immersed in delusion. Delusion is this world of activity. Establish yourself on big mind, but in the midst of delusion. As we go about our business, it's in the realm of delusion, the realm of duality, in other words. So delusion is important, and enlightenment is important. And to establish yourself not on delusion, within delusion, to course through the world, the realm of delusion, when you sit sadhana your mind is always in delusion. How many people sit without a thought through 40 minutes of sadhana?

[22:56]

Raise your hand. We're totally in delusion. My mind is going all the time, thinking thoughts, dreams. desires and delusion, totally, but within enlightenment. So this is the wonderful thing about Zazen, that enlightenment embraces our delusion. We don't try to get rid of delusion. delusion is the realm, is the world in which we find ourselves. So how do we course through this world?

[23:58]

How does Avalokiteshvara course in Prajnaparamita, not by separating from this world but by entering deeply, totally into this world without being caught by it. So we cannot live or practice without delusion. Delusion is necessary, but delusion is not something on which you can establish yourself. It's like a stepladder. Without it you can't climb up, but you don't stay on the stepladder. So, our activities are means. Practicing within the delusive world is a means, is a way to practice. You use the elements of the delusive world in order to practice.

[25:00]

Otherwise, you simply get caught by the world. the elements that you meet every day as a means to practice, then everything is practice. Delusion is enlightenment. It's like a stepladder, without it you cannot climb up, but you don't stay on the stepladder. With this confidence you can continue to study the way. That is why I say, don't run away, stick with me. I don't mean stick to me, stick with yourself, not with delusion. In other words, stay with our practice, stay within the practice, stay with my teaching, don't run away.

[26:07]

I remember Suzuki Roshi saying that sometimes we say to a student, go away, but we don't mean you should leave. And I remember I was talking to this woman who was a student of Rinzai teacher who came to New York and studied with Ruth Fuller Sasaki and helped her translate Zen dust, and he was a very strict teacher, he had almost no students, and he said to her one day, Well whenever a student would come he would send the student away and then he said to her, �How come nobody comes back?� Because it's expected that the teacher sends you away and you come back.

[27:18]

You have to fight for the teacher, to stay with the teacher. We're also accepting and all that, but not them. He said, �Go away,' and then you come back, �Go away,' and then you come back, �Go away,' three times. the teacher will send the student away, so they're testing your sincerity. If you really want to study with me you have to fight your way in. That's a very common practice for teachers in Japan, I mean some teachers, especially Rinzai teachers. Master Uman in China, you know, when he went to see his teacher, the teacher just kept sending him away, and the last time he put his foot in the door and the teacher slammed the door on his leg and broke it. That's the story.

[28:18]

That's how he became the disciple of the teacher. So, okay, you can come and study with me. There are other stories like that too, in China. If you go to the temple, you want to get in, and they sort of say, �No, but since you've come here, here's a little porch and we'll bring you some tea or something,' and then you're supposed to just stay there away from all that. And then they come in the morning, �Oh, you're still here? Well, okay, here's some more tea.' You come and you put your head down on the steps until they invite you in, might be an all-nighter, you know, they throw you into the Tantagario. So it's like you have to fight your way in, you have to make a big effort to

[29:29]

allow yourself, allow them to accept you, that's very standard. But even then, you know, the student may not be sincere but they want to test the sincerity of the student, yeah. I don't know. I can't answer that. I'm not that person. Have you ever presented anyone away? Huh? Have you ever presented anyone away? Have I? Yes. Yeah, I have.

[30:37]

But that doesn't mean that I abandoned the student. And some teachers are just very tough. Anyway, so I don't mean stick to me, I mean stick with yourself and not with delusion. Sometimes I may be a delusion. You may overestimate me. Oh, he's a good teacher. That's already a kind of delusion. That's a wonderful thing for a teacher to say about himself. That may already be a kind of delusion. I am your friend. I'm just practicing with you as your friend who has many stepladders, in other words, ways of helping you to practice.

[31:46]

we shouldn't be disappointed with a bad teacher or with a bad student. You know, if a bad student and a bad teacher strive for the truth, something real will be established. So this is a kind of really wonderful statement. He's not telling us what a wonderful teacher he is. He's acknowledging, you know, he's putting himself into doubt. I'm just who I am and I can see my own faults and you can see my faults maybe, and I can see your faults and I can see your good side, so to The teacher and the student are actually practicing together.

[32:55]

The teacher is always the teacher, the student is always the student, but sometimes the student is the teacher and sometimes the teacher is the student, even though the teacher is always the teacher and the student is always the student, because they have that relationship. It's not just a one-way street. So the teacher has to be able to be flexible enough to see where the student is sometimes right and see their own fault and be able to acknowledge that and appreciate the student's understanding. You know, if a bad student and a bad teacher strive for the truth, something real will be established. That is our zazen.

[33:57]

We must continue to practice zazen and continue to chew brown rice. Eventually, we will accomplish something. I don't know what time it is because I left my watch at home. Yeah. I think that student-teacher dialogue about how to enter practice always made sense to me because a student has to know why they want to enter because it's not easy. It puts the student in a position of saying, I really want to do this for my own reasons. And it does seem emblematic. It does seem like that's what the Buddha did.

[34:59]

The Buddha said, I'm going to sit here until I figure this out. I mean, there was effort there. But it does, it still leaves me with the question of why it's so hard. and of losing ego, etc., and we see that for ourselves, and yet we still have to wrestle with ourselves so hard. What's the purpose of the struggle? Or why is it so hard? Why do we have to put our forehead on the stair all the time? Because we think we're sincere, we may think we're sincere, but until we're faced with something difficult we don't know.

[36:02]

So this actually is a way of testing our sincerity through some difficult venue. The teacher is actually testing the sincerity of the student. The student may think, I really want to do this, but the teacher is offering no promises based on what you think. You know, how badly do you want to do this? That's what the teacher said.

[37:04]

How badly do you want to do this? So, oh, I want to do this. No, you can't do this. Well, you go away. Well, no, I really want to do this. So you approach again. No. You go away. Well, maybe. Why should I keep bothering this guy when I can just do something else?" So, no, I really want to do this, so you come back a third time. So, this is testing your sincerity. You may think you're sincere, but you don't know you're sincere until you have rejection, until you realize, this is the only thing in the world that I want to do. when you realize, this is the only thing in the world that I want to do, then the teacher accepts you. I'm not saying we do that, we don't do that, you know, but it's a great way, because the teacher may only have one or two students, but those students are ...

[38:16]

The teacher feels that he can spend his time with them. I don't think this is the only thing in the world I want to do. Well, you should find the thing that you want to do most in this world and do it. What do you really want to do most in this world? That's what you should do. You can, but if you really want to penetrate to the bottom, you should just do one thing thoroughly. My Qigong teacher's father spent his whole life just painting

[39:25]

When you put your effort into just one thing thoroughly, then that opens up everything. If you keep wanting to put things in your basket, you end up with a lot of things, but not very deep. It's actually not cruelty. That's not cruelty. There's nothing cruel about it. What? Yeah. It's cruel. Life is cruel. Well it depends on the circumstance.

[40:44]

Depends on the person, the circumstance, the time, the place, what's going on. Supposing you wanted to keep somebody out and you slam the door on them because they won't stay out. Supposing you had a robber that kept wanting to come in the door, you slam the door on his leg and he gets enlightened. See, this oonman, yinman, wanted to rob the teacher, wanted to get something from him, without having to pay for it. Anyway, why, [...] why? I have to say, if I had to pick the one thing, I've already picked that a long time ago and it's not this.

[41:57]

Do you see a problem in my participation here under those circumstances? You know, everyone can practice here according to their desire. according to the way they want to participate. So there's nothing wrong with that. But someone, to be my Dharma heir, I would want them to practice as thoroughly as possible. I would want them to have this be it. But this isn't only for your Dharma heirs? No, it's not just for my Dharma heirs. That's why we have a wide practice. I don't say everyone has to practice a certain way, and I don't expect everyone to practice in that certain way, but someone who does practice in that certain way gets my attention.

[43:01]

How do you know that this other thing that you're doing isn't the same as this? There are differences. Let me just say, if I had to choose, I would choose the other thing. But I don't see why I have to choose. Because it seems that more than one thing can fit. I just wonder, if you're looking at the form, I personally find a lot of oneness or interrelation with these things, so I don't see it as a problem. Charlie?

[44:23]

So on that same line, if I were a foam blossom painter, would I do better to only paint foam blossoms and not practice zen? I think what he was saying was that this Qigong master's practice was doing one thing thoroughly. That was his zen. That's what he's saying. That's an example of doing one thing thoroughly. You can do other things, you know, it's not like you only do one thing. When you establish yourself on that one thing, then there are other activities that you can also do. I mean, there are, you know, but your life comes out of that wellspring. in this practice, not me.

[45:41]

Not taking Bible lessons, no. Yes. Well, I feel like I should make confession. But I also, the reality, just to say, when I came here, I was home. And I watch how all those things shift over the course of now more than 20 years. And because a teacher is fairly

[46:49]

every day to think about what I do and what I don't do, what my ambitions might be or my dream of fulfillment, and just being here. And this is, I think this refers, this is like what Suzuki was talking about when, or what you were talking about when you say, when we sit here and all these by them. And sometimes I also feel like the activities they do are suffused with practice. Gradually they merge. So if you slam the door on my leg, you could have broke my leg and saved my life. That's not necessarily cool. It can be cool.

[48:01]

That would depend upon the teacher's motivation, motivation, but in the actual interaction, without knowing contact, you can't sing. So, you can sing for me. But I'm not... Well, you know, when you're established in the practice you have various activities that you do, but all of those, the essence of your way of dealing with all those activities comes forth from practice. It's all informed by the practice.

[49:05]

That's what I mean by being established in the practice. If I play music, I have a family, blah, blah, blah, but that could all vanish, and I would always just be established in the practice. So that's the main thing. I also think for myself that my relationship with practice transcends my relationship with my teacher. And so when I feel irritated, or annoyed, or unseen, or whatever, I always have to come back to what's my relationship to practice? Why am I here practicing? And if I come from that place and I have an understanding of on what's being offered to me, and it seems whole that I can examine that.

[50:10]

If it doesn't, then I continue to have faith in practice's expression through me. Well, that's right. So, you're always thrown back on yourself. And that's how you establish your practice. So, sometimes your teacher seems cruel or unfeeling or dismisses your feelings or ideas or whatever, that throws you back on your practice. That's how you establish yourself. I don't care. I remember saying to myself with Suzuki Roshi one time, I said, I don't care if you ignore me or, you know, don't think I should practice. I'm going to practice anyway. Maybe that comes back to the beginning of our conversation about the student's sincerity.

[51:18]

The reason why are we practicing here? Are we practicing to please a teacher or to try to inspire or get some attention or whatever it is? How do we make this practice our own? That's right. I know you don't get it. Well, James, aren't you free to come and go? Yes, I am, and frankly, I want to make you come. I'm trying to wrestle with ... I'm really upset by cruelty I see going on.

[52:22]

I know. And then, things come up like this, and teachers slam, right? Or, like, really hit me. Well, I'll tell you, whatever we do, it's all based on kindness. And I find it very gentle here. sometimes too gentle, but that's okay. Well, the idea of trying to please somebody really, I think it's an important topic to bring forth in the community of people that I love here. And it's a big pitfall for me, over and over again. We've actually not talked about that much. So I'm glad it was brought up. Maybe we can talk about it in the future, too. A big weakness of mine is wanting to please others.

[53:26]

And I really go a long way on grounding points and gold stars. And I just want to tell you that, in case nobody else noticed. I have no problem with people, with anyone who doesn't think that the practice is the most important thing in their life, or is first. I have no problem with that. I think we should all find that that thing that which we really want to do, which our heart and our mind really wants to focus on, and do that.

[54:28]

I really believe that we should do that. And that's what gives us energy and Vitality. So, that's what we should do. I encourage you to do that. Yeah. I wanted to respond to what James put. I think these examples of, you know, put your head on the, you cut off your arm and put your head on the Deaf and whatnot, they look like tests. And I don't think they're necessarily tests. Sometimes they are.

[55:30]

But we all start off, not just start off, but you know, my sincerity fluctuates. But like when I started to learn to be a Qigong teacher, our teacher said, before I certify you to be a teacher, you have to be able to touch your, change your toe. And all the teachers, we kept trying to touch our chin to our throat. And in traditional China, you had to do that to become a teacher. Now, of our whole class, none of us succeeded except one rather young person. But the point is, in trying to do that, we developed our sincerity. We became more sincere by trying to do that, and we're still trying to do it. And I don't know if I'll ever succeed in getting there. But, you know, in the same way, like coming to Sesshin, part of me is being sincere, going, I want to go to Sesshin.

[56:35]

And then, certainly there are points in Sesshin where I go, why am I here? But somehow by being here, it strengthened that quality in me But it's not a test, it's a practice, I think. Well, the thing about, yeah, I think that's right, and the thing about the Dharma is that you can never, it's unreachable, but we keep reaching for it.

[57:14]

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