Our seven-day Sashin, five-day Sashin, starts Wednesday and ends Sunday. And on Sunday, just after the end of Sashin, we'll have a lay ordination called Jukai Tokudo. Tokudo is a ceremony like confirmation. And jukai means receiving precepts. Kai is precepts. And ju means to give. And it also means to receive. So I want to talk a little bit about jukai, tokudo. And I I'd like to see what kind of questions you have about it.

[01:03]

And maybe we can discuss a bit. Chukai, receiving the precepts, is a very important kind of confirmation. Can you speak up a little bit? I'll wait till the airplane goes overhead. It's a very important aspect of confirming your practice, our practice. And what it means has several meanings, but basically it means to confirm your faith as in the lineage of all the Buddhas and ancestors.

[02:08]

It means to become, affirm your faith as a blood relative, blood relation. of Shakyamuni Buddha and all the ancestors, all of the Buddhas, patriarchs, ancestors, bodhisattvas, and become a member of that family. So we have a little chart, lineage paper, which is called the bloodline and it starts with Shakyamuni Buddha and runs through the head of each patriarch or each ancestor in the lineage.

[03:16]

And we chant the lineage every morning, you know, Vibhashi, Bhutsu, Dayo, So, all the Dayo, So. It doesn't mean that those are the only ancestors. Somebody said, it sounds hierarchical, but there are certain people, certain ancestors, which are very prominent in the lineage. And instead of reciting everyone's name, which would take about 2,000 years, we recite those names which are outstanding, and which show the connection. And then your name, when you have jupiter, appears on that, at the bottom of the lineage.

[04:19]

And then the flood line goes back up again to Shakyamuni Buddha so that it's a complete circle. And not only are you your own individual self, but you're also Shakyamuni Buddha. In the old meal chant, we used to, it says, the innumerable Shakyamuni Buddhas. We pay homage to the innumerable Shakyamuni Buddhas, which is actually who we are. We're ourself, but we're also Shakyamuni Buddha. So we become actually one with that family, with that lineage. And But it's not something, it is a kind of step, but it's usually not something that you step into cold.

[05:36]

Because you're already involved and practicing in that way, it confirms what you're already doing. This thing doesn't put you into some new place. It is new. You become a new person. But because of your practice and your sincerity and your faith, it's a way of are being confirmed from the side of the ancestors. So we see these precepts are completely given and we receive. And then we also receive a raksu, which is a very small robe, which you wear around your neck, like Megan's raksu, and Ron, Maile.

[07:01]

And the raksu is usually sewn, not always, but usually sewn by the ordinee. And each stitch is very carefully So it's not like a running stitch, but it's like you have to make a little nub. You come up this way and you go down just the right space so as to make a little rivet. And so it's a very involved project to make, to sew your own rope. but it's very rewarding. You become part of that process. You don't have to sew, but it's customary. So when we have the ceremony,

[08:11]

you're given the raka, the kechibiyaku, which is the lineage paper, which includes you, and the raksa, which is your robe. And we have the same, similar ceremony for both priests and laypeople. the precepts are the same, but the precepts are the same for both. But the activity of a lay person is to stay at home, and the activity of the priest is to leave home. But in our particular circumstances, it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes lay people leave home.

[09:13]

Sometimes priests stay at home. It's a little mixed up. And not always too clear, exactly. This will be the first time that I've given ordination. And I feel very good about it. I feel that the people that we've practiced together for a long time and to have this confirmation is very wonderful for me to be able to do this. I haven't done any priest ordinations. For me, that's a bigger step to give a priest ordination.

[10:16]

Lay ordination, with lay ordination there's a relationship between the person who gives the precepts and the people who take them. But that person may or may not be your teacher. It doesn't necessarily have to be your teacher. But usually it is. Usually you have some relationship with the sangha and with the teacher. And from my point of view, people are always free to come and go to see other teachers and to even though we have a relationship, your relationship is also with the Sangha and with each other. And one of the purposes of lay ordination is, aside from your own personal confirmation, is to encourage others, to encourage people you practice with,

[11:34]

if with your own sense of confidence. So receiving precepts encourages your teacher and your fellow members. It helps us to feel more a certain kind of reality about what we're doing. makes it more real in some way, even though it's real. You don't have to have chukai in order to feel that your practice is real, but it helps to confirm that reality, give it some form and some warmth. So, receiving the precepts is a kind of warm feeling, It should be a joyous occasion.

[12:40]

Serious, but joyful. If it's too serious, it's not so good. And if it's not serious, you're missing something. But, you know, even if everyone is in a different place, Ideally, you would think the person should really have their mind made up and know exactly what they want to do and feel confidence. But not everyone feels that. Some people feel, I don't like to join something. I don't like to change the way things are. A lot of different reasons why people are hesitant. But that's okay, you know, to feel that way. Sometimes a person doesn't know even what they're doing.

[13:48]

That's okay too. It doesn't demand that you suddenly have great understanding. You don't have to have any understanding. But even though you may have some hesitancy, when you go ahead, it also means that you have some faith, even though you don't like it or don't feel so. But there's something underneath that that is helping you. And by acknowledging your practice in that way is more often than not helps you. It's a big help to your practice.

[14:52]

So in one sense it's for ourself, we do it for ourself, but really in a bigger sense we do it for everyone. These precepts are bodhisattva precepts. So, what we're acknowledging is our self on the path, on the bodhisattva path. That's what our acknowledgement is. And it also acknowledges our shortcomings, and we see exactly where we are. That's good, to know exactly where we are. A friend of mine from Japan wrote me a letter the other day and he said, well, now that you've had this Mountain Seat Ceremony, people must think that you're much more mature, but you know that you're much smaller.

[16:00]

You feel much smaller, I'm sure, and that's really true. So you don't have to feel that you've reached some plateau or something in order to have ordination, but just to help you to continue in a way that confirms your practice. Usually, we ask people to wait for three years. When you've been practicing for three years, then you can ask to have chukai.

[17:11]

That gives you enough time to figure out whether or not you really feel that practice is yours. And We always say, it's okay. So if you've been practicing for three years and you want to have chukai, you can ask to do it. And I think from now on, we'll be continuing to do it, to have chukai ceremony. There've been a lot of people who've been practicing here for years and years, who have never had a chukai. And so now we have this opportunity. And instead of it being a big thing, it will, I hope, be a continuous part of what we do.

[18:15]

And also, we've never had I've always been the only priest at the Berkeley Zendo for a long time, and so we're oriented toward really lay practice, and I would like to ordain some people as priests, but I'm still thinking about it. I'm thinking about what it means. And I want to be very careful. Not too careful, but if I'm too careful, nothing will happen. But just careful enough so that I know what I'm doing when I do it. And it'll be... so it'll be helpful for everyone.

[19:31]

It will... and I hope that if it changes our practice it will change it to make it better for everyone. Do you have any questions? I have two questions. When you started, you said, you used two words, Jukai... Jukai and Tokugawa. Tokugawa. Could you say a little more about Tokugawa? Tokugawa, they're both, from my understanding, they're interchangeable, somewhat interchangeable. They just express two aspects of the same thing. But in America, Tokudou has been used to express priest's practice, priest's ordination.

[20:37]

Let's say if a priest has an ordination that is called Tokudou, and if a layperson has an ordination that is called Jukai, but that's just something that was invented here. Do you know if the word Tokudou means? Tokudou is way. I don't know what it means. Well, I don't know literally what it means, but what it means is the ceremony of ordination. And my other question was, you mentioned about the lineage of the ancestors. Is it true that some of those people didn't really exist? When you go into the history of who existed, in the past, you know. It gets very fuzzy, you know. Modern scholarship about China and India has thrown a lot of dubious light on the ancestors of the past.

[21:48]

And so, another thing, digging back into the ancient chronicles and some scholars even doubt that Bodhidharma existed. But the lineage, if you think about it, the lineage looks like something that started in the past and so-and-so handed, passed on the lineage to so-and-so, who passed it on to so-and-so, and there's one person for each place. But that's one way to think about it. But the other way is that if standing here and looking back to the past, you say, this person, this person is part of our lineage because of who they were and what they did.

[22:49]

So it's true that in one way Looking from the past to the present, there is a line of people, but looking from the present to the past... Let me put it this way. Looking from the past to the present, there are gaps. And from the present to the past, you fill in those gaps. We don't believe that all those people existed exactly in that way, you know. But somebody said, well, you know, we'll line it up this way. But that doesn't make it less valid. What you feel is, your lineage is those people who you look up to, or who you feel. So, how it actually happened is not so important.

[23:53]

It's the same with the koans. If you read the koans, you know, you say, well, how did people keep such wonderful records? Well, they didn't. The meaning of the koan is very different than what actually happened between those two people. What you're trying to express is some meaning. So, in this way, fact is not the factor. What is important is the myth. But we tend to think that myth is a lie. You know, myth is something you make up and it's not factual. But the fact of the myth is that it encompasses the truth that you want to convey in a story. That's the important part. So, it doesn't matter, you know, so much what, who took this step or that step, in actual fact, because that's impossible to know. no way that you'll ever know what anybody did in the past, except through the story.

[24:53]

And if you want to have a fact, that's one thing, but if you want to convey an idea or a truth, or an idea which conveys the truth, then that's what you do. So there's fact, it's based on fact, but the facts are not accurate. The important part is what you're trying to say, what people are trying to say. So it's all, of course, pushed out of shape. It's important to know that. If you feel that all these, the patriarchs did, the ancestors, I'm sure, did exist. I mean, that's not unlikely. But whether they existed in a sequence, that exactly, or there may be some gaps and something else happened. But if you can see the underlying meaning, get the meaning, then that's what's important.

[26:01]

A lot of times I'm asked what the word Roshi means. And I was wondering if you know, is there a difference between the way Roshi is used in Japan and the way it is used in the United States. Could you talk about that? Well, it means something like venerable, old, teacher. And different people use it differently. And you usually don't call somebody a Roshi if they're young. And in the Rinzai tradition it's an actual, you know, after you've It's a rank. In the Soto tradition, it's more of a feeling. More so. Students or people, you know. But technically speaking, from my understanding, is that if a teacher

[27:08]

has dharma transmission, and then they have mountain seat ceremony, which installs them as a teacher in a place. And they have students, and they have students who are priests, especially. And if there are other priests who come to study with that person, then you can call that person Roshi. And that's what Katagiri Roshi said. And I said, well, it's not too likely that people, you know, not many people come and go and visit other teachers to study with them. Sometimes that happens. He says, well, yeah, even in Japan, that's not so common. So he said, maybe that's not a criteria for America, maybe just having students and maybe, may or may not be priests. But one, this should be some teaching.

[28:16]

And I think our particular kind of practice is different than the practice in Japan. And in Japan you have people who have temples, but they don't have students. So technically I think it's okay to call, you know, people Roshi in there. But, and even Hoitsu, Hojo-san said it's okay, you know, to call me Roshi. But I don't expect you to do that. Maybe when I get older. Or something. But I don't, just because he said so doesn't mean you should do it. But it's nice to know that he said so. I'm glad that you said that you feel you have time before meeting my patients and briefs.

[29:22]

It feels to me as if there's so much going on now, so that we're in really a very rapid process of change. I'd like to say just how that is. It's been important to me, as you say, because somehow, I think the Sangha really, because five or so of us received the precepts, it really, it made me feel quite differently about the Sangha, and it really helped knit, I think, knit all of us in. So part of it all that remains the strangest to me is the lineage.

[30:33]

So I keep my little package, when people receive the precepts, you get this paper that Mel is talking about, this little square paper. I keep it in my office. And it just sits there. And it just means nothing to me. It just sits there, it's good. Just leave it there. I guess it'll just have to just sit there. I don't understand, you know, I understand the metaphor of it, but the particulars, you know, the politics, the ancient history part, and why some people should belong to the lineage, and why others shouldn't, and all that sort of thing, keeps me very separate from it. But then it's good to have something that you don't understand. I think that we can study the lineage. I think that's something that I would like us to do. Even though it will still remain a mystery, I think that it's something that I would like us to do.

[31:43]

I remember when Suzuki Roshi or daily, he said, just keep this closed. Someday it'll mean something to you. It doesn't mean anything, may not mean anything to you now, but someday it will mean something to you. Don't take it out and put it back, take it out, just leave it there. That kind of feeling. It seems important to me that when you read about them, that they can become human, that they actually become people. is meaningful, as long as it's not just some kind of historical formality, but when they become people who stand, and like people, each one is different, and each one has a different kind of an influence or life, then it's helpful.

[33:12]

In a way, it's like people in the songbook. And particularly, there's Maybe it's not so good to have preference, but I find that there's certain ones that I'm attracted to, and certain ones that I'm not. And just to go into it like that, like, who is here? What ancestors are there who have some meaning for me? Rather than having to swallow kind of a pill, You should take this, someone said that? No, that's a kind of attitude, that's an attitude that I sometimes feel like is that nobody's actually said this to me, but I have this sort of attitude like, well, there's this very imposing Japanese-Chinese lineage that's kind of awesome, and that here it is.

[34:22]

And it goes way back, and it's very comprehensive. And that's it. But there's no personality in it so much that's presented. Nothing to sort of relate to. Bill? This is very interesting to listen to these different attitudes toward that lineage chart. It was ordained by Suzuki Roshi. It's done right here. Always carries this with him, with his rock suit. And I asked him why he didn't just put it somewhere. And he said, I'd like to keep them with me. I'd like to have them close by. It was just a very deep, strong feeling. I am going to ordain Ron as a priest, sooner or later.

[35:41]

And it's something I've wanted to do for a long time, actually. But Ron is going to travel, and I want to do something for him before he travels. And I think this is the best thing I can do for him. What his relationship to me will be, he and I will always have some relationship, but I don't expect him to always, to necessarily end up with me as his teacher. I will always be his teacher in some way. And we always have a relationship because of that. I want to help him in this way before he leaves.

[36:49]

I think each person who has ordination as a priest is a completely different situation. Mostly, you want someone to study with you. If you ordain them as a priest, then you want them to stay and study with you, at least for a certain time. But Ron's already been around for a long time. But I do expect him to stay around for a little while. someone else I might ask to be around for a longer time. But it depends. And also his situation is very clear, pretty clear. At least it will help him clear up the things that are not clear, I think. Okay, just a minute.

[38:01]

For a priest, You have one teacher who is your ordination teacher. And then you could have another teacher who is your teacher, shuso teacher. In other words, the teacher who you train with as shuso, or head monk in a practice period. And that's another step, to be shuso. And then you have a teacher who gives you dharma transmission. Those three teachers could be one teacher, could be one person, or it could be two or three. Each one could be with a different person. I had ordination with Suzuki Roshi, and my shiso teacher was Tatsugami Roshi, the Tatsahara. And Suzuki Roshi's son is my honshi, or dharma transmission teacher. So those are three different teachers. I always thought it would be maybe one, but it turned out to be two.

[39:05]

And that's very common. You don't always stay with one teacher. I had looked at my lineage chart since I got laid at the event center. And this last week I looked at it because I read something about that and I wanted to see what it looked like. And I was really quite surprised to see my name really large at the bottom I don't really belong there or something, you know, it's all kind of funny. Because your name is so large? Yeah. And with all these people that I can live with. Their names are all real small. Yeah. I don't know. And they're less important than me. Well, see now there's, is that true? Are they more important than you? Purpose of this chart is to show that you're exactly the same, even if your name is a little bigger.

[40:07]

It's hard to write your name that small. I've been writing these, not that my calligraphy is so good, not very good at all, but it's very hard to write all those names that small. And even on mine, on Suzuki-goshi, you wrote my name a little bit bigger. I looked at that and I thought, My name's a little bit bigger than yours, but that's okay. It doesn't mean that you think that you're thought of as being bigger or something like that. Everyone's the same. That's the purpose of that lineage, is that you and all these people are exactly the same, in one sense. Yes, the horizontal and the vertical. Right, and I don't know exactly what he was talking about, but I assume that what he was talking about is that there is a hierarchy of the lineage, which I assume was what he was saying.

[41:16]

And then there's another part where there isn't a hierarchy. There's one better than the other, but they're all... And being kind of a Berkeley type, I liked this one better than this one. And I've been thinking about that since and troubled a little bit by it. And maybe you could explain. Well, the problem is, in a word, bitter. The fact is that they both exist, no matter where you are or what you're doing. We exist on a horizontal plane with everyone as equal. But on the vertical plane, each one of us is different and we all have a different position in life with things in relation to everything. So because each one of us has a different position in relation to everything else in the universe, it's called hierarchy. Some things are high and some things are low.

[42:18]

But when you accept your position completely, then you're No problem, you're at one with everything. But if you say, oh, I'm high and they're low, then you have arrogance. It's okay to be high, but you have to realize how you exist with everything else. So it's impossible to get away from hierarchy, even though we don't like it. Because we say, well, hierarchy, you know, they're trying to suppress me. Somebody's trying to do this or that. But that's just our take. And the world goes around that way, you know, with love and hate. But it exists. And to recognize the existence of it, without getting angry, is important. To know what is your place. There are people above me and there are people below me. You have to acknowledge that, in that sense. So, to respect the people above you and to help the people below you.

[43:24]

That's what our practice is. And then, at the same time, we all exist in the same way. So if you understand both of those, then you don't worry about preference so much. I don't like it or I do like it. That may come up. But you have to understand that those things exist that way. The lineage, everyone is equal. That's what the line is saying. They're all one. With Shakyamuni Buddha and all the ancestors. Same time, Shakyamuni Buddha is Shakyamuni Buddha. Six patriarchs is the six patriarchs. Jim Zivick is Jim Zivick. All different. This is a tripe, but are there any women that are ancestors?

[44:26]

There are? Yeah. I don't mean that it's a tripe, but I mean that it's kind of bringing in that issue, which is an uncomfortable one, and I'm just reminded. All the women here are ancestors. It's just that because in the past, the division between men and women had been much different than it is now. The world is evolving in a certain way. People are evolving in a way now where men and women, the roles of men and women are changing. But we're looking at a lineage in which they were different. I think it would be, it's a good idea to create a feminine lineage.

[45:33]

I think that's what we should do. Create a feminine lineage. You don't have to wait for it to come from the past. You can look at it from the present to the past and make your own lineage. Say, well, you know, we admire these people. These people really contributed something, you know. And just create that. The way the lineage was created. We should do that. Each one of us can do that. But I think that's a good project. Even though what we call the lineage looks like it's set in stone, you know, it's not. Our lineage, what we call our lineage comes from the way it's set up, more or less, comes from the Sixth Patriarch, Kichinyaku.

[46:42]

And when it came to, Dogen changed it, and he added his own Rinzai lineage to it. So our lineage from Dogan includes both Rinzai and Soto lineage. It may be possible to add something, change our lineage around to include matriarchs. This is a very practical question. Yeah, well, um, yeah, the sewing class has always been in San Francisco, but someone is being trained, hopefully, to help us sew here, so we don't have to do that. And we already have the sewing equipment, so the plan is to, that we can do it here.

[47:44]

But, you know, it takes a lot of dedication for someone to teach that because they're always in demand, very demanding. So you have to think about that part. But my feeling would be that if the people who have done it help the people that are doing it, it's a nice feeling. And maybe once someone teaches, someone else will help do that too. Other people will be able to help do that too. So it's not just on one person. But teaching sewing is a kind of transmission in itself. I thought a lot about the precepts and why did they come about.

[48:53]

And it just seems the more you look at them, the more they are, to me, the way that people can live together who have to live too close together, how they can live together in harmony. I think that's one good way to look at it. Many ways. Too close. Just close is good enough.

[49:25]

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