Hello everyone. We're foregoing the introductions of Dharma Talks during Rahatsu. So without all that bio and stuff, I'll just say that my name is Ross. For those who don't know my name, here as well as online, and welcome. One of the positions I hold here at BTC is the Eno, spelled I-N-O. And the Eno oversees the Zendo practice. I like to joke around saying the Eno also means I know. But actually, I've been humbled that this person here doesn't know so much and has forgotten a lot over these past years.

[01:04]

Yesterday I was at Tenzo and I participated in a number of faux pas with Jisha, my apologies, with the Doshi, my apologies, and A number of others. So while it was humbling, I had a realization that I know and not knowing is most intimate are this duality. I know and I don't know. And the reason that we're practicing here over these 2,500 years is because of separation, feeling separate.

[02:12]

And the dualities that confront us, that present themselves to us, are the things that perpetuate our suffering and discomfort as well as others. So looking at the duality of life is actually the entryway to the realization of life, transforming samsara into nirvana. So with regard to the self-pause of yesterday, some of that happened today, and maybe some more will come later in the week, I was thinking about the four methods of guidance. They are giving kind speech, beneficial action, and identity action. The first three, giving, kind speech, and beneficial action, have kind of a dualistic flavor or feeling to them.

[03:16]

I want to give. I want to offer kind speech. I want to have an action that benefits others, to benefit them. They're wholesome. intentions, but they're dualistic also. The fourth one, identity action, is not dualistic. So, when I experience those faux pas, either I was completely ignorant that I was making a mistake, or at that moment or at the next moment, I realized, oh, I'm feeling separate, I made a mistake, I feel bad, I'm supposed to be on top of this stuff and all that. So that was a feeling of discontent and samsara arising.

[04:25]

On the other hand, The identity that I had with my co-conspirators was actually liberating. I was no different than the Jisha, the Sushin Director, the Doshi. How good is that? How great is that to not feel different than anybody else? The text that inspired my talk today is an interview that Soja Roshi gave to Sue Moon some years ago.

[05:28]

And the booklet is entitled, A Path Unfolding. When Suzuki Roshi died, I knew I was going to carry on our practice in the same way I had been doing. I had always practiced as if one day I would be on my own. I remember the last meeting of all of Suzuki Roshi's disciples in his bedroom at San Francisco Zen Center, and it was clear that he was dying. We knew this would be the last time we would all be together. There were tears in everyone's eyes and a larger-than-life feeling in the room.

[06:31]

It was a loss for us, but it was a kind of freedom for him. Loss and freedom. On the day he died, his presence filled the building. It was the first day of Ratsu Sushin, December 4, 1971. He died in his room during the first period of the day of Zazen, and there was nothing we could do but keep on sitting for the rest of the week. We knew that he would want us to just continue, I always felt that I was still practicing with him and I think that took the place of mourning. I'm still practicing with him and still learning from him.

[07:33]

I'm sorry. I'm still practicing with him and still learning from his teachings I carry with me. So the word mourning really came up for me when I was composing my notes and just now reflecting on what that must have been like for Sojin Roshi. One of Sojin Roshi's teachings is don't apologize, just do better next time. In other words, not Well, you can acknowledge the present, but don't make it think of the present mistake or the present accomplishment. Just continue practicing and work on getting so-called better and refining your practice. So mourning is about the past, you know, the past life of a friend or family member that we've been close to and has informed our life and encouraged us.

[08:43]

So as Sojin Moshi would say, Feel your feelings and move on. Don't disregard your feelings. Feel them and what's in front of you in the next moment and practice with that. When people are asked to be Shuso, we meet with the teacher and get some encouraging words. So Soji Roshi asks the Shusos, please offer talks that are encouraging to others. He didn't say how to do that, what it should sound like or anything.

[09:46]

It was just a simple teaching. Offer encouraging words. So in thinking about what kind of talks have we been listening to for the past 50 years at Berkley Zen Center, I thought about three different types. There may be more. I would doubt there are more. But they kind of break down into lecture, dharma talk, and taisho. So for years we said, who's given the 70 lecture? Who's lecturing next week? That sort of thing. And we did that for years. In fact, we had this beautiful lectern that supports the computer during Zazen and sometimes is brought out onto the top for people to use to hold up their reading material or study material. So, lecture has a feeling of being lectured to.

[10:48]

I remember the lectures I heard or experienced, I don't remember them now, in college, you know, being lectured to, being taught something. And our Dharma practice isn't about learning something, it's about forgiving something. It's about forgiving our conditioning, letting go of our conditioning and learning something anew. So lecture isn't quite right, in my view. Dharma talk feels more consistent with what we're doing here, in that we are here at Berkeley Zen Center studying Buddhist thought and the Buddha Dharma, the Buddha teaching. So Dharma is with a small d, is a phenomenal world. Dharma with a big d is Shakyamuni Buddha's teaching.

[11:50]

So, Our intention here is to present talks illuminating Buddhist teaching. And we're not hopefully lecturing on it. We're not feeling lectured to or talked to, but actually bringing forth Buddhist teaching from a personal experience and an aspirational experience, desire and vow to meet together. So hopefully when we are receiving a talk, giving a talk, we're closing a gap between this person up here and you all out there. It's actually we're just in this one room together. The third is called teisho. And I remember when I started practice in New York in 84, hearing about Taisho, and I had like a, whoa, Taisho, what is that?

[13:04]

And, you know, seeing robes for the first time on people, and there was chanting and incense. It was like, oh, this is so great. What's a Taisho? And so I heard Taisho's from Bernie Glassman. who was just known as sensei back then. And the literal translation of tesho is presentation of the shout. Exactly. What is that? So our conditioning is shout. That means somebody yelling at me. I don't like that. Or shout. shouting for my team, go, go warriors. What's the shout that's being presented? Is it loud? Is it a whisper? Please don't step on the meal board.

[14:09]

Is it something in between? Is it words, actually? One advantage of a shout or one attribute of a shout is you disappear. There's just this expression, this full-throated expression. And there's no longer a person there. If it's a self-centered expression, then of course there's a very much of a self there. Hey, I'm in charge here. Don't screw up. Get back in line. So depending on our past experiences, we have either encouraging memories or not so encouraging, or maybe discouraging memories of shouts. But truly speaking, a shout in Dharma is a presentation of a teacher encouraging a student.

[15:14]

And I had an experience of that. few here at Berkley Zen Center and in New York, and in between, a piece of coffee and tea, depending on the circumstance. But the one I'd like to share today is about letting go and how it helped me let go. I really appreciated Susan's talk yesterday and looking at what letting go is and finding other words that may be easier to place in context what letting go is about, because how can I let go of something from holding on? Letting go means I'm holding on to something. So the experience that I had was I grew up in a small town in Virginia, and when I moved to New York, I was entranced and enchanted by that place. Ancestors are from New York.

[16:19]

The ethnicity of New York City just exudes blum-ness. It exudes a lot of other things, but for today, the flavor is singularly blum, or actually, more appropriately, schlion. My grandparents on my maternal side, who are from the Ukraine, And when I was in New York recently, I went to my grandmother's house as a child at 50 St. Mark's Place. Coincidentally, across the street, little cafes to hang out with friends. And there was a Ukrainian flag on the apartment that she lived in as a child. It's a Ukrainian neighborhood, so it's not surprising, but very surprising. It obscures my eyes to get off that. I think a moment of respect and silence for the suffering going on in the world.

[17:26]

And for me in this moment, Ukraine. I smiled when I heard Susan's talk yesterday because she read a passage that I had intended to read. As we know, you can't step in the same river twice. So this is a new reading of an old passage.

[18:29]

Everybody has their... Oh. No, they don't. That comes later. Zazen is not about making you a better person or fixing your problems, even though that does happen. As you become more in tune with things, improvements in your life do happen. But you don't practice for that reason. If you practice in order to make things happen, it doesn't work. You have to be able to let go, and then everything is a kind of surprise. Zazen is simply an offering of yourself and a letting go of conditioning so that you can allow freshness to be present in your life.

[19:37]

We don't practice in order to get a particular result. That's what Suzuki Roshi was talking about. Excuse me one moment. So with regard to the Tisha that I heard, I was here in the Zendo and we were having a Doanryo Refresher. Sojo Moshi was leading that, encouraging us how to sound the bells, bring our voices, Kokyo, and the sound of the Mukugyo, the little drum over there.

[20:40]

And this was some years ago. I was still kind of longing for my ancestral home in New York. the old Dharma, Bernie, and that style of practice, which is a little different than here. So I forgot the point that Soja was raising, an important point, though. And I raised my hand, and I said, you know, in New York, we used to do it this way, or something to that effect. And here came the presentation of the shot. In the volume, of Soto Roshi's expression was something like this. Forget New York. So what's that mean, forget New York?

[21:43]

It doesn't mean honor Berkeley. It doesn't mean don't think of New York ever again. What it means is, there's a gap here. You're showing us your gap. You're in New York, and you look like you're here. I didn't get it then. I mean, I understood the intention of Saundra Mashi. She encouraged me to be present, but I didn't get it until much later. And it's not just about Berkeley and New York. It's about our former relationships and present relationship, be it work or play, be it romance or platonic. Who am I now?

[22:47]

What is the present, Ross? Sochi Roshi says, Zazan is not something you get out of, it is something you put something into. So when you think about what we think about, when I think about what I'm going to get out of something, which is typically what we do when we come to practice and a lot of other things, there's a separate, I'm going to get this.

[23:50]

And if we get what we so-called want, we may be happy. It may cause problems. Invariably, it does cause problems because it is impermanent. And when it changes what we thought would be happy, getting something, we're no longer happy. So the letting go is what we put into because if there's this here, whatever it is, however it manifests, and I'm observing it, there is a relative side of self and other, but when I put myself into something, when I put myself into something, when I drop myself and sit, going into breath, awareness of posture, I'm no longer thinking about the other things that tend to be right, wrong, good, bad, I want, I don't want. So how do I put myself into practice, into the thing, and close the gap?

[24:55]

Well, over seven days we get things to that. There are many forms of spiritual practice and everybody has their own way. It's not up for me to decide whether someone is doing it right or wrong. If people don't like the formal practice we do at the Berkeley Zen Center, there are plenty of other practice places to go to. But if someone wants to do this practice of zazen, they should follow our way and we will help them. Well, sounds good. I don't like this style. I want to do something different. I want the staff from New York to come here. So I spoke to Soja Roshi over 27 years about this particular thing that I had, which was, you know, we should acknowledge late practice.

[26:07]

Not just saying, you know, late practice is important and it's good to have that, but actually acknowledge it in some form. In New York, Bernie gave lay entrustment or lay transmission, I didn't know the term he used there, but there were lay people there that wore brown rocket suits, and they were senior students, and they gave talks, and so that was essentially what the lay entrusted students here knew. But it wasn't here yet. It needed me to come. to Ben Bell's ear for 27 years. We should do this. We should do this. So he was not on board with that. And I was really wanting this to happen for me. And I thought for the temple as well. But he wasn't budging. He says, that's not our form here. You know, that's Bernie's form.

[27:10]

That's the lineage that has this lay, they divide, Dharma transmission is a priest side and a precept side, and the priest side is for the priests, and the precept side is for everybody, priests and lay people, but we don't separate them in our tradition here, but in New York, Bernie did that because it was a hybrid lineage. So I said, oh, okay, that's what it's about. Okay, but can't we do that? Can't we just do that one side? Come on. So... After many years, like I said, he finally relented. And I said, that's great. So it'll be a green ruckus zoo. It's not going to be late transmissions. You're not going to be writing up your documents as priest zoo. I said, what? I didn't say that.

[28:11]

It was my idea what I wanted. And this is our temple. It's Oshimoshi's abbot. So it's just my stubbornness. I want it my way. Why are you doing it that way? I don't want to compromise. No, thank you very much for the invitation to be lay entrusted, but I don't want to do that. Thank you. And Karen Dakotis and I were going to do it together. And I love Karen. I supported Karen. And she got to do it. all by herself, which made me happy. I was sitting over there in the back, and I really admired her just saying yes to Sojourn Roshi's invitation. And I felt a little self-conscious about my own reticence to do it, my separateness, but that's how I felt. It was an authentic feeling. A number of my dumber friends were encouraging me to say yes, but I wasn't budging.

[29:11]

And in that not budging thing, mind was self-centered. I went it my way. So did not budging on his reticence to grant my wish, I saw as a wall, like the walls we sit staring at day after day after day, seeing our reflection. And so after 14 years, from Karen, who's launched the whole green Rakesu Lake Entrustment in the Bay Area. Thank you, Karen, for starting the ball rolling, for starting the sewing, rowing. Sojago, she invited me in 2019 to sew the Rakesu. And my first impulse was, oh, we've been through that again. so many times, thank you very much, but no, I appreciate it.

[30:16]

And I was a teacher that study weekend. He says, well, just think about it. So I went and washed his teacup, and I didn't think about it. I just came back into his office and said, okay, I'll do it. So what was that? I wasn't thinking, should I or shouldn't I? I'm just washing, I'm just taking care of the teacup in front of me. And I go in the office, and they say, okay. The next thing on his mouth is, okay, go see Jean and get that song going. And I remember going into the kitchen, and Susan was a tenso that day, and she was at the sink. And I can be happy. I can be very expressive and, like, celebrating life, but generally I'm kind of understated. That's how I be myself. Somebody might think I'm, like, over the top, but that's for another day. So I say, Susan, God, guess what? I'm going to sew a great rock a suit. And she said, oh, that's great.

[31:18]

I'm so happy for you. And her date was already scheduled. And so later I told Sonjo, she said, you know, Susan's going to be, is her ordaining on such and such a date. And I'm going to sew really fast. And so we can do it together. And he looked at me in his chair of the office. And he just gave me, he offered another take show. He offered another expression of a shout, which is, I decide on a date. Oh, right. So I was like all caught up in my flurry and celebration and happiness, which is all fine and good. But the teacher is still the teacher. Okay. And he relented. And we went up... or dating together. So it took all those years to let go of my stubbornness and my self-centeredness.

[32:25]

I'm trying to keep our practice pure. We're not doing it just any old way, because then we wouldn't actually be doing it. As soon as we start adapting the practice to what everybody wants, we find out that this one wants to do it this way, and that one wants to do it that way. And pretty soon, we're just accommodating everybody, and nothing is left of the practice. You can't bend the practice to fit your idea. You have to soften your mind to fit the practice. You have to walk through the small door. It's not up to you to determine how the practice goes. It's up to you to conform to the practice. When you can do that, the practice becomes your own. So in a simple way of describing, say, the liturgy, where we're sounding the bells or the mukukyo, or chanting, Sojo Roshi liked it kind of like so.

[34:03]

And there's no flourishes as such. Sometimes people end the mukukyo with a da-da-da-da-da, like that, where the chanting might be kind of sing-songy, choir-like, which has its place. But here, Sojin maintained and wanted to keep pure, nothing extra, in that what he learned at Tassahara from Tatsugami Rashi, you know, at AHE and brought all the forms over, was to maintain that. But over the years, there have been more practice places and more ideas about how practice can be, should be, ought to be, and they kind of trickle in. So we make some modifications here. We try to keep it as simple and plain and ordinary. without the flourishes, because then, like going through the little door, you get to see yourself without the adornments. And the reference to the little door is something about tea ceremony in Shanyu, where back in old days in Japan, the samurai who didn't take any S-H-I-T from anybody and had their sword,

[35:13]

had to leave their sword outside to go into the little door into the tea room and sit down and have tea with the tea master. So, samurais are defined by their sword. So if they leave what they're defined by outside the door, what's left? Just this. Just this cup of tea. Just this admiration of the scroll, the tokenoma. just the pain in my ankles sitting things on this topic mat from so damn long. We get to find out who we are when we go through the small door. The gate is the small door. It looks like a gate, and it is a gate. Then again, it's a doorway to leave our stuff outside and come inside. and practicing here with no flourishes, just this, rubbing up against each other, being embarrassed and humbled, being encouraged and supported by all you present people here online and in Zendo.

[36:29]

It's the best. It's the best. If we can last, don't chicken out. Soji Roshi used to say about Suzuki Roshi. We say that during Zazen. And chicken out was like maybe thinking, I want to cross my legs or move or something. It was okay to move, but the spirit of not chickening out is just to stay upright in the midst of the... Oh, that hurts. Oh my God. Yes, a chuckle of affirmation. Thank you, Scott. That happens. How do we stay upright? How can we do that? Well, if we're able to do that, then we get to see our self-centeredness for what it truly is, which is just a manifestation of the self.

[37:38]

And then perhaps we can see into that delusion of separation and have a glimpse of waking up, waking up to the people who are here to support our practice, people who are jerks to us, who are suddenly wonderful people. How did that happen? Did they change or did I change? Soja Roshi once said, I'm not going to be your friend. And I like having friends. I like bringing forth friendliness and connection to people. I'm not always so friendly or so connecting.

[38:42]

I get upset and angry and impatient just like the next person. But when Soja Roshi said, I'm not going to be your friend, it wasn't like he's going to be my pal. He's a teacher, and he is going to present a form by which we get to practice with. So as I was saying around the lay entrustment question that I had, he presented a wall that I got to see myself and my self-centeredness as wholesome as I thought it was that we should entrust lay people and, you know, bring the practice forward in America, in the West, and we're not in old Japan where it was all priests and lay people just, we don't know what the lay people did there. But here, not quite priests, not quite like people. Well, that's all selfish thinking. And it took years and years and years of just no, no, no, to finally get it and let go. And so when he says, like you saw Green Makassu, yes, of course. You're my friend after all.

[39:42]

Not my pal friend, but my Dharma friend, which is why we're here. But the intimacy of our practice actually makes us feel that we are friends and we actually should be friendly and hanging out and all that. Not necessarily so, because what brought us here is the practices of waking up, not about a coffee class or a beer group or dining out parties or skiing opportunities to practice and sit. So in closing, I'd like to end with a paragraph of Sojin's explanation of how he works with his students. And any good teacher, I believe, would follow this tact. It isn't necessarily the open hand.

[40:44]

It's not necessarily the closed fist. It's something moving. It's not still. In working with my own direct disciples on priest ordination and dharma transmission, I have made them do a lot of waiting. So as Susan yesterday kindly edited some of the Soja's words to kind of make them more inclusive, we can just say, in working with my own sincere students here at Berkeley Zen Center, I have made them do a lot of waiting. It's a good teaching to let go of their expectations and depend not on their credentials, but on their practice. Sometimes people want recognition so that they can start their own practice place. They think people will come to them because of the color of their robe, but that's backwards. I have always waited to give people Dharma transmission until they already have students practicing with them.

[41:54]

because of who they are, not because of their perceived achievements. I give them acknowledgement after they prove themselves." So what is proving oneself? I don't know, but I'll leave it to you all to ponder. What is proving ourselves? What is the self that needs to be proved? Thank you very much. And if anyone has questions or comments, in person or online, I'm going to bring my friends over here in front of me so I can see them. We have about 10 minutes or so, I believe, on the schedule.

[43:00]

Gimbo. Thank you, Ross. You're welcome. It's nice to see your heart on display here. Appreciate it. Yeah, I was struck by the quote from Sojin Roshi where he says, I always practice as though one day I would be all alone. And I feel like I kind of resonate with that, but it also seems a little sad. So I wonder what you can say about the intimacy of our practice and this idea of practicing as though one day we're going to be all alone. Good question. Thank you, Kenpo. Sojo Oshie often said, alone is at one.

[44:05]

We typically think of alone as, you know, separate. I'm alone. And I felt that way for years. For years. And when he said, alone means at one. I don't know if he necessarily meant that at the time. I think probably as a mature teacher, the at-one-ness is something that clicked as a mature teaching to share with others. I don't know much about his history, but what I've gleaned is that he was kind of on his own in a way. He left the Bohemian beatnik You know, artists and left family, came up to the Bay Area from L.A. and whatnot. So I think he's kind of been his own person. And, you know, he started Berkeley Zen Center as a satellite.

[45:11]

And with the attention, the energy and all, much of the notoriety was at Zen Center in San Francisco. And Sojin's understated way, it kind of felt, For me, more at one versus this bigger body of people and activity. And actually, I felt here at Rahatsu an intimacy and a oneness with all of us here just working together and trying to remember, how do we do this? That's what I've gotten from it. Thank you. Karen Sundheim. Hi, Karen. Hi. Thank you, Ross. You're welcome. Thinking about what you said about grief and mourning and moving on, and I'm wondering what it's been like, how you've worked with that, with the loss of sweet pea.

[46:21]

or any other losses? Sweet Pea's good. Sweet Pea is a simple cat. For those who don't know or remember, or we would remember, of course, because that was... She wandered into Berkeley Zen Center without a tag or call or anything like that back in 2015-ish. Yeah, 2015. And I adopted her after Sojuro. She said we should have a temple cat rather than fostering her out. My dad was a veterinarian. I saw him euthanize many animals, but it didn't resonate for me until it happened with sweet pea. And the mourning and grief is a celebration of her life with the postings that I put onto our listserv. what I learned about her as she was going through her process.

[47:31]

And as Sojin said, when we, or animals, or anything really, turn toward death, there's no going back. And we were in Sashin, actually, when she turned toward death, and she walked up onto the Dokusad hut porch, hung out there for a while, then she went and underneath the chair outside my apartment and meditated on Rocky, the other cat in my home. And mourning him is my own projection. And for me, as painful and hard as it was, the things that I had to balance were This is the natural order of things. This is actually what happens to everything. We all die. We all leave this place and transform into another thing. And I was wanting her to die because I didn't want to suffer anymore.

[48:36]

And it was really hard to want something to die. It's easy to want one or something to die that we don't like, but something that we do like to let go. It was extremely difficult. And the feeling with feelings and working with that was a great lesson. And people quite often would say, will you get another cat? No. Although there was an opportunity to get one with some Marie Hopper had adopted, fostered a bunch of cats and I said, no, but I'll give you the litter box and all these other things that I accumulated as a way of giving back to those who are kind enough to adopt those cats. And I think about her every day as I do with my parents and my teachers. And I realized that the morning, for me,

[49:41]

the mourning and grief that I felt around that time. And it wasn't isolated because there's always people that had a relationship to her. And as we do with memorial services, when people die and people speak up, you learn so much about how we were impacted by others, what we've learned by others. And so it was really, really touching to go through that process and have an altar to her in my apartment where she used to eat. And I, where I used to eat, where she used to eat, where we ate together. Yeah, that's not, I didn't quite get into a particular point in response to you, but I hope it was enough there to feel some connection to that mourning process with our pets. Definitely. It was helpful.

[50:43]

Thank you, Karen. Hope you're feeling better from your cold. I wanted to just raise the issue of the small door. And the kind of concept that, well, this practice isn't for everyone. Take it or leave it if you want to take it to an extreme. Versus when religions go to other countries, they often accommodate a different population because the culture is different. And so there are certain things that are to me important to have an openness and inclusivity and welcoming because I want other people to get to understand this practice and to be able to come.

[51:55]

So it seems to me that there's a tension with the small door. And I wonder if you had thought about that. I have thought about it. This isn't the only show in town. Birthday Zen Center is not the only show in town, as Sojin said. Pete's Coffee and Tea is not the only show in town. If people want lighter roast coffee or something else, then Pete's was going to stay with the dark roast. And I worked at Pete's for 25 years. There were a lot of people complaining about what we should be doing there. Now, that's the business. It's not a Dharma practice. But similarly, if you go into Pete's now, it is a ghost town. It is nothing. It has none of the vibrancy that it once had, for better or for worse. It's infinitely more profitable, but it's not the same.

[52:58]

Berkeley Zen Center is not selling coffee. We're selling a Dharma practice that was brought to us that is foreign to everybody here, except for the couple of people that maybe spent some time in Japan. But all I know is from what my experience is, that the things that were difficult for me are universal. The particulars of Ross's co-honor question, being Jewish, being from a small town, feeling alone, all that sort of stuff, None of that was going to be helped by accommodating me. So my own experience is that the small door was helpful for me, and I wouldn't want the small door of a place to continue to accommodate me. When I was in New York, Bernie's style was changing things, and that wasn't for me.

[54:06]

And I did not tell him or ask him that he should be doing it differently. This is what he wanted to do. And people were supported by that, encouraged by that. And it went that way. And it is no more. I'm old-fashioned and traditional, and my koan is my own. And people who feel alone here, that they don't belong here, or they feel estranged or whatever, Well, that's a good question. Why do I feel different and alone? Why can't I sit here? What's keeping me from sitting Zaza in here? But isn't that a question you get after you've been around for a while in practice, actually? Because that's what the purpose of the practice is, is for us to work with that, right? But if we don't get in the door or we don't get in the chat, To learn that.

[55:10]

To learn to accept our own and to look at ourselves in that way. That's what we're trying to do. I'm not talking about changing ourselves so that we're going to be like a gospel church. But there are small accommodations in recognizing where there are barriers that don't have to be. And maybe we look at that. Well, thanks for raising the question, Jerry. It's an ongoing question that we've had for a number of years. And sometimes changes happen organically. Like the ramekins with the gamasio, these have a saucer on the bottom. It was always cumbersome, how do you carry both these things so they don't drop? And one time the head server forgot to put the saucers on the bottom. And things changed here. just by the result of a so-called oversight. But one last point, and I apologize for going over.

[56:16]

So at Practice Committee, there was someone that wanted us to have a Facebook presence, and we didn't have any social media stuff going on. And he says, this is how people are getting information now. We need to let people know what we're doing here. And people on Facebook and whatnot to find out about different things that they want to do. And the person was very passionate about having this happen. And Sojourn Roshi turned to him, and all he said was, what are we doing here? What are we doing here? And for all the years I've been here, close to 40, people come. And people go for all kinds of reasons. And it's not necessarily for reasons that we think they are, in my view. Let's keep the discussion going. And thank you for asking it today. And again, I apologize for going over.

[57:18]

But the faux pas that Jerry and I made yesterday in the kitchen has now been resolved. And now we're all together as one happy being. Thank you, Terry. Thank you all.

[57:29]

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