Well, the other day we had Thanksgiving, and I haven't really had a chance to talk to it here for a while. It seems like I've been gone for a long time. I've been at Tosahara. And I got back just in time to go down south for Thanksgiving. So thinking about Thanksgiving, We think of Thanksgiving as a time of gratitude for all of the sustenance that we have. Usually we express gratitude for all the good things that we have. Usually we say thank you for all those terrible things, but the good and the bad come together, and it's one old piece.

[01:15]

Anyway, so thinking about gratitude and You know, I spent Thanksgiving with my in-laws and family, my in-laws' family, who are scientists, mostly, and atheists, mostly. So when they sit down at Thanksgiving dinner, they just dig in. One of the patriarchs of the family is religious. And so he said, he asked me to give the blessing. He had captured all the scientists at his table. So I had to think of something quick.

[02:20]

So that I wouldn't offend everybody. Say something. So I reminded everyone that what comes to us is due to the labors of innumerable beings, and that we shouldn't take it for granted, and that we should think of everyone when we eat this meal and offer it to everyone. So pretty much I modified our Buddhist meal chant and said something very succinct and short and non-sectarian. Something that everybody could relate to. And I think that basically our Buddhism, our Buddhist way of

[03:25]

appreciation is not sectarian, but it should be something that everyone can relate to. But when I think about this gratitude, we say, well, who are we giving gratitude to? Because in Buddhism, there's no deity. So what the scientists are afraid of is that they'll be relating to some deity if they say, thank you. It's very scary to atheists to say thank you, because that means that there must be some focal point. And they really get scared, maybe some of you are scientists. But I respect that, and I think that's understandable. You don't want to say something that's not consistent with your way of thinking about things.

[04:31]

So, what is it? Where does our gratitude lie? Where does it go to? Well, when we express gratitude, it goes out there, but where does it go to? What is it addressed to? Which brings me back to something that Suzuki Roshi said when he's talking about our breath. He says, our breath is like a swinging door. When we inhale, it goes this way, and when we exhale, it goes that way. But when we think about breathing, and I've talked about this many times, we say, usually we say, I am breathing. So I am breathing is our independent side.

[05:40]

Human side. The world, according to my understanding, I am breathing. But actually, from the other side, I am being breathed. or breath is coming and going. So he says breath is like a swinging door. Without saying I, without doing anything, just breath comes and breath goes, so to speak. But which side is coming and which side is going is also rather subjective. So this is kind of universal life. life of the universe being expressed as breathing in and breathing out. Also, thinking, I am breathing, is also an expression, a universal expression in the form of I. The problem is that we get attached to this I, and

[06:52]

see everything from the point of view of this I. So we say, I am breathing, or I am eating, or I am walking, or I am talking. And we tend to focus or get attached to this idea. It's just an opinion, really, a kind of arrogance to say, I am blah, blah, blah, whatever. So from the other side, You say, I am living my life. But from the other side, life is living me. You could just as easily say, I am being lived by life. But we don't usually think from that point of view. So we have our independent nature and our dependent nature. Dependent nature means I am lived by everything.

[08:05]

Independent nature means I am living my life. Both are correct, but because we're so focused on I am doing that it's hard for us to see that I am being done. or I am being lived by. So our so-called I-life, or we say ego-life, is so strong that it completely obscures our view of reality, our whole view. So that's why ego is called partiality, because it only sees from one side. This is the problem with dualistic understanding. We only see things from the point of view of I, me, and you, and subjects and objects.

[09:17]

The subject is a subject for the object, or an object is an object for the subject. So in Zazen, we have an opportunity always to see from the point of view of being lived by life. And on Thanksgiving, We have this little opportunity to appreciate our true nature, that everything is completely interdependent, that all life is one whole being. So when we have gratitude, it's just the most natural thing.

[10:20]

It's not something extraordinary. all life, supports all life. We're completely dependent, utterly and totally dependent on everything. So, gratitude is a kind of acknowledgement of our total dependence on everything, without exception. So, when we have realization, the main thing that we have is gratitude. And we live a life of gratitude moment by moment. Nothing special, actually. Just offering incense and bowing. in our daily life, how do we bring this kind of understanding into our daily life?

[11:41]

This is the most important problem for us. Practice should be continuous. Otherwise, what is it? Otherwise, zazen is just some exercise to make you feel good or refresh you for the day or something like that. This is not the purpose of Zazen. The purpose of Zazen is to bring forth the whole mind, the entire mind. So sometimes we express our life completely independently. Sometimes we express our life completely dependently. But whether it's dependent or independent, we're always standing right in the middle of the universe.

[12:47]

So, This is why more and more I think about when people say, well, how can I practice in my daily life? My life is so busy, and I'm always thinking, and I'm always having to do things, and how can I... It's hard for me to see the connection between my daily life and Zazen. So, I tell people that at some point in your daily life to just stop and be aware of breathing. Just stop and let breath express itself as universal activity. You know, it's sometimes when we're very busy we can stop and

[13:59]

just pay attention to our breath, and that's very calming, right? But calming is nice. It's good to be calm. But actually, beyond that, to just realize universal life, that this is the life of the universe. This is not just my activity. We, you know, in our city, we get very narrow. How often do we see the moon? How often do we look up and see the moon? Mostly, we're working down, or we're driving, you know, and we're focused on the street and the traffic and on our thinking. And how often do you see the bay?

[15:03]

The streets actually run this way. And when you look down there, the bay is there, but how often do you really see it? How often do you really see the hills? Sometimes, but mostly we're in our rat race, going around and around and around in our independence. But sometimes we have to just stop Let breath be breath. And let seeing be just seeing. And just see without trying to see. And just breathe without trying to breathe. And just think without trying to think. so that we know, let our ego just fall off for a few minutes.

[16:18]

And we can do this many times during the day. Then when we resume our activity, Our life resumes itself from nothing, from not knowing. Our minds are very full of knowing and thinking. And we feel that the more knowledge we have, the better off we'll be. And when we think about all the things that we do and how much busier and busier our life becomes because our minds collectively are making our lives more complicated all the time.

[17:24]

And every once in a while we have to stop and think, what for? I think it's great to go to the moon, but what for? So the things in our life become more and more important to us. Busy activity becomes more and more important to us. And then we keep making this sense of, I am doing, stronger and stronger. So every once in a while, during the day, just be in between those activities, kind of like a hinge between activities, to just stop everything and just be life.

[18:44]

Let life be itself. Because this is what our doing depends on. This is like the ground of our doing. It's our not doing. And if we can do that non-doing enough, then non-doing stays with us through our doing. Non-doing is already there within our doing, but we don't realize it. Every once in a while we have to stop and realize that within our doing is non-doing. within our activity is total stillness. It's like the hub of a wheel. A wheel's got spokes, and a rim, and a hub. But the thing that makes it turn is the space in the hub.

[19:54]

and our busy life turns on empty space. Somewhere there has to be that empty space at the center in order for our busy life to turn. And if we know this space, then we're not fooled by our busyness. So, this is how we, one way to bring our practice into our daily life, is just allow ourself to breathe. We say, you know, that everything we do is zazen. That may be true, but not necessarily. It can be so, but

[21:05]

Because in order for it to be zazen, there must be awareness. We may not, for some of us, we may not have enough really know how to practice, then all the forms in your life can be zazen, a form of zazen, as long as we recognize the stillness within the activity. So then our body and mind is like a swinging door.

[22:13]

When something appears, we respond to it. And when it leaves, we respond to that without grasping or rejecting. Just like life, life itself. Universal life is to accept it completely. It's just to let things come and let things go. And to engage. When engaged, to be fully engaged. And when letting go, to fully let go. This is called non-attachment. Non-attachment means when engaged, to be fully engaged. That's non-attachment. You may think that's attachment, but attachment is when engaged to not be fully engaged.

[23:23]

That's attachment. That's ragged. Neither here nor there. Non-attachment is when engaged, to be fully engaged. When letting go, to fully let go. So, for the life of a Zen student, to fully Fully let go, moment by moment. So that there's no interference with life. To co-operate with life.

[24:27]

So we think maybe ego is bad. But ego is not so bad. Ego is only bad when we only are aware of one side. So then we get caught by ourself. Ego, Suzuki Roshi used to talk about big mind and small mind. Ego is when we're separated from our true self, that's ego. It's not necessarily bad, it's just too bad for us. That way, So in our relationships, to be dependent and to be independent at the same time.

[25:54]

To be dependent means to know that this I depends on everything. And to be independent means that this I right now is a complete expression of the universe in the form of this I. So it follows through all of our relationships with everything. Independent means that I move things. And dependent means that I am moved by everything at the same time. Moved and being moved.

[27:02]

This is the secret of our practice, knowing how to be moved and how to move things. And Suzuki Roshi quotes Tozan, his poem, which says, the white cloud is the child of the blue mountain. The blue mountain is the parent of the white cloud. All day long, they depend on each other without being dependent. on each other. This is how we have our perfect freedom. Clouds have perfect freedom as clouds, but they're completely dependent on the sky.

[28:07]

They're completely dependent on everything. But when you see them up in the sky, they have complete freedom. change. They're always changing without any problem. Just being themselves. Oh, there's a clock, but what is it? So, in the same way, This is the nature of relationships. I remember when I had a... I used to have dogs, lots of dogs, from time to time in my life.

[29:09]

And I never could train a dog formal way. But I always trained the dog just through relationship. And when I would go out with a dog, this is before they had strict leash laws, the dog would do his thing and I would do my thing. But there was always this relationship. So that the dog always knew my mind and I always knew the dog's mind. there was always, no matter what we were doing, independently, there was always relationship, because we knew each other's minds so well. And this is the same kind of relationship between teacher and student.

[30:13]

Teacher and student have independent mind, but yet, Even though they act independently, they're still dependent on each other. This is the way any kind of working relationship has to be. Dependent and independent at the same time. So we have some feeling of accomplishment, but we also have to appreciate and realize that that accomplishment doesn't come independently. The only reason that we have some seemingly independent accomplishment is because of the work of all beings together.

[31:17]

But it comes out in the form of, I did something wonderful. So whenever we do something wonderful, we should realize that it's not just our independent self that did something wonderful. So this brings forth gratitude. So Life of gratitude is very complex, but very simple. There's so much in that talk.

[32:31]

Different subjects and what I kept thinking about was when I go to work there are these people I work with who are our aunts and students and sometimes I feel like they're doing this thing and I'm doing this thing and it's hard to feel kind of integrated. I often feel like I'm doing my thing and they're doing their thing their way and I'm doing it my way And in your analogy, well, just in your talking about the dog, I was thinking maybe that's what it's like. Could you say something about how, as a Zen student, how we can feel less isolated or less separate or apart from the people we work with who aren't Zen students? Yeah. Well, you know, when you become a Zen student, then at some point you feel different than ordinary people. Because what you're doing is different than what most people do.

[33:39]

And then after you become mature, then what you're doing is not different than what ordinary people do. But there is some difference. Your values may be different than the values of the people that you're working with. But you have to be careful that there's no trace of Zen in your work, in your relationship. This shouldn't be the slightest bit of Zen as a trace in how you relate to people. So that's what you should be careful of.

[34:44]

So how can you just relate and work with people in a way that your Zen is present, but there's no trace of it? That's a great challenge. I can only do it, I can't say it. You have to be able to not have to just do it and not say it. Or if you say it, it has to come out in a way that sounds very ordinary. But I cannot give you an example. Because the response has to be to the situation.

[35:54]

And as soon as you have a conditioned response, then it's no longer your practice. Well, it's not so easy. Not so easy. So, in other words, you have to set some kind of example. So, often I hear people say, well, you know, when I'm working with people, they get together and they talk about these things and, you know, I don't feel good about it. you know, and I'm left out, and so on. But it's also possible for you to influence other people in a conversation so that you're not just bound by what they say.

[36:57]

You can say something that brings them over to another side, that hears another side. For instance, an example, when men get together, they often talk about women in a certain way, or talk about certain types of people in a certain way, you know, certain ethnic groups or something like that. And so you feel, well, that's not the way I think about it, right? So there's a way, you know, most people When they talk that way, they're usually either pompous or frightened in some way. They don't quite know how to relate in certain ways. But if you show that you actually don't think the same way and do it in a skillful way, that can bring people around.

[38:08]

to letting go of that kind of attitude. It's possible. So we're not helpless, you know. We can also show another side of things. But you don't have to show, you know, the Zen way of thinking or something like that, just as a human being. Thank you for the way you articulated the concept of gratitude. I found it extremely meaningful. Thank you. I have a question about, you said that to be partially engaged

[39:10]

It's neither here nor there. It's attachment. It's attachment, yes. Could you speak some more about that? Well, when we're fully engaged, then there's nothing left behind. What we do is total. So, there's no me and no it. I am it and it is me, and there's no room for attachment in total engagement. But in partial engagement, where something is left, so there's some doubt or some holding back, then that's a divided self, and the divided self is attachment.

[40:18]

There are various forms of attachment, and various ways of speaking about attachment. this holding back is attachment to what's held back. So when there's total engagement, then as something changes, there's still total engagement. And when something changes, there's still total engagement. So that if we have something, and we're totally engaged, and then it's gone. can be totally engaged in that space that we are in now, instead of attached to the thing that's gone.

[41:24]

There's always, you know, attachment includes longing and crying and so forth. Non-attachment includes crying and longing and so forth, you know, and grief and so forth. In non-attachment, grief comes up, but it also passes. In attachment, grief comes up, it never passes. So, totally engaged, and then totally not engaged. But there's always often a transition. which brings up grief and longing, right? And then to be totally engaged in grief and longing is okay for a moment or for a time, and then it passes.

[42:34]

When something bad happens, we cry and then go on. So, that's to be totally engaged. Like children. Children laughing one moment, and then crying the next moment, and then they're sad the next moment, and then they're alive the next moment. Because it's a life of non-attachment. When something comes up, it really comes up big, and they do it totally, and then they're in the next moment with that. We have to think.

[43:44]

We do? We have to think. We have to think. We do? I do. That's all right. Because when you are a student, or maybe perhaps you can say that maybe we should believe we are a student and have to find a secret to go back to that stage again. Yeah, we can't go back. Right, but we can go forward to adult stage of non-attachment. We can't go back to being children, but we can progress, so to speak, to being totally adult. Which is meaning? Well, there's childhood, and then there's This big space, which I don't know the name for exactly.

[44:45]

And then there's maturity. Then there's maturity at the other end. And these two, at each end, resemble each other. There's this big mess in the middle. What is the secret of maturity? Yeah, I just let it go. No. But if you practice it all the time, it's easier. If you just wait until something happens, and just go about your business until something happens, then it's very difficult.

[45:51]

But if you practice it all the time, then it's easier. That's the secret. And it's not a secret. You have to practice it. It has to be your life. It has to be the practice of your life. You can't just, you know, go along in the usual way and then some big thing happens to you and then you think you can just kind of let go. That doesn't work. Unless you have a tremendous revelation, which people do. But you have to practice letting go all the time. And then when something happens, you know what to do. Or it's just part of you. That's why Zen practice is not some idea. It's practicing daily, every day, all the time. And it becomes your life so that you don't have to think so much.

[46:56]

It's like anything that you do all the time. You just do it. And even then, it's hard. Okay, when you say that, let him go, I have this image of a balloon. Okay, let him go. So, what would you have in a word to say so I can be grounded? Be what? When you say, let him go, I have the image of a balloon. Let him go. But I need to be grounded also. Grounded? Yes. Yeah, let him fall down. Like a ton of bricks. Can you say it again? That is being grounded. What do you mean by that? You let things go, and you're on the ground. Okay, I got you.

[48:12]

You know, the higher up you go, the more grounded you have to be. I think we tend to try to ground ourselves in some ego. For instance, the ego of a Zen student could be a kind of safe ground. We think that you can operate more successfully in your life out of that ego and maybe some other roles. The ego of a Zen student is dangerous ground. Yeah, it is. We have to let go of that one. and then let it go. But better not to get it at all. Better not to accumulate it at all from the beginning. So that's also

[49:15]

But we have a lot of baggage, lots of baggage, and it's not at all so easy to put down. So then we have to cry. It's okay. We have what we have. So anyway, it's not a matter of detachment. It's a matter of... Non-attachment is not like detachment. Detachment means separating yourself. But non-attachment is in the midst of response ability to not be attached to anything. It means to be fully engaged with whatever it is. That's letting go. Anyway, it's a big koan, not so easy to define.

[50:45]

So we all have our koan, moment by moment, day by day, and so we should be grateful that we have it.

[50:59]

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