This afternoon, we will have a priest ordination ceremony for two people. Can you hear me? In the front you can, but not in the back. This afternoon, we're having a priest ordination ceremony for two people. We haven't had a priest ordination for a pretty long time. I don't know how many years. But it's become here a little more rare. So I want to talk a little bit about what is a priest in our school. We have priest ordination and we have lay ordination.

[01:14]

Lay ordination is for people who live at home, have family, work, and so forth, and who have some devotion to practice. We used to say that after three years a person could ask for lay ordination if they were practicing steadily and were devoted to the practice. But recently we give lay ordination to people who are devoted to the practice and practice steadily after a year or a year and a half. and it's very encouraging. Sometimes we do it to encourage people and also to acknowledge someone's practice. And this lay ordination is a connection to Buddhist lineage, lineage through all the ancestors from Shakyamuni Buddha to each person.

[02:39]

So we call this a bloodline. You become a member of the family of the Buddhists and ancestors. Priest ordination requires a bigger commitment. When one becomes a priest, I wouldn't consider ordaining someone before they've been practicing for at least five years in a very steady way to where their practice has the quality or looks like the practice of a priest. And then, ordaining someone as a priest is a natural step. Sometimes people come and say, I'd like to be a Zen priest.

[03:44]

And I have to say, well, just go to the beginning of the line. Or the end of the line, I mean. When I began to practice in 1964, there were very few American priests at the Zen Center. And lay ordination had only taken place one time with some of Suzuki Roshi's earliest students. And he didn't do the lay ordination. He had Bishop Yamada, who was the Sokan, the bishop in Los Angeles, come up and do the lay ordination.

[04:50]

And then between 19, that was about 1962 to 63. And then between then and 1970, 1969, there was no lay ordination or priest ordination in Zen Center. Suzuki Roshi ordained a few people as priests. One of them ran away. The first one or two ran away. This is actually very common in America, that the first priest that a teacher ordains runs away. The person thinks, well, I would like to become a priest. And then when they're ordained, they realize, I don't really want to do this. And they run away. Oftentimes, you know, when people are ready to go to the monastery at Tatsahara, they meet somebody the night before they're enslaved.

[06:04]

It's not a joke. It's very common. So to become a priest, one has to go through the various phases of inspiration and desperation a number of times before they are actually settled enough to know that even if I I can't understand at some point why I'm doing this. I will still do it. So in 1960 Seven, Suzuki Roshi asked me to be ordained.

[07:19]

And I was quite surprised, actually, because there were only a few other priests that he had ordained. Although I considered myself a dedicated student, I had a lot of trouble and problems in my life. But he had a lot of faith in me, for some reason. and asked me to be ordained. So I was ordained in 1969, two years later. And I asked him, well, now that I'm ordained, what should I do? I've told you this story before. He said, I don't know. I asked Katagiri Roshi, who was his assistant at the time. He said, now that I'm ordained, what should I do?

[08:23]

I said, I don't know. Having so few American priests, you know, I think that actually Suzuki Roshi didn't know exactly what we should do. But to me, this meant with a dedicated mind, you should keep asking yourself this question, what should I do? What should I do? What should I do? How should I do this? I was not on my own. He wouldn't ordain me and just put me on my own. I was his disciple. And I just copied him. I just imitated what he did. And, you know, Japanese way of teaching is not to tell you very much, but the student observes.

[09:27]

Students should observe. And the teacher is always dropping hints, you know, always dropping hints. And the students should always be picking these hints up and dealing with them. That's just the way. And that's not so much our American way. So students who practiced with Japanese teachers for a long time have this manner as well. But second generation after that doesn't have that style so much. And people get kind of frustrated with the style. You didn't tell me. You should be more explicit. And I think that's true. In a lot of ways we have to be more explicit. But it's a very wonderful teaching to have with a teacher who is not very explicit. Because it really keeps throwing you back on yourself.

[10:29]

And you keep having to ask yourself, well, what's going on? So that kind of teaching is a kind of consistent or constant koan practice that's constantly going on. It's not like there's a specific koan, but the teacher's manner and way of interrelating is a koan. That kind of teaching is very subtle. And that's the kind of interaction that I had with Suzuki Roshi. And it was very seldom ever explicit. And I always had to pick up on what he was thinking, what he was feeling, and what he wanted me to do.

[11:32]

Because if he didn't say what he wanted me to do, but if I did something wrong, he'd scold me. So, priest's practice, you know, in Japan, Japan being so far away from India, and kind of far away from China, and an isolated island, Buddhism developed a lot of its own habits and its own way of doing things, which is different from a lot from mainstream Buddhism.

[12:36]

And the Zen school actually remained the closest to mainstream Buddhism. And especially the Soto Zen school, even though the monks got very lazy, And the actual practice drifted, you know, for many years back and forth. But the thread of Buddhism was maintained by the Soto Zen School more than any other school of Buddhism in Japan. And through practicing meditation and the precepts, although precepts were never really practiced in their entirety in Japan. So when Zen came to America, the teachers brought the Zen to America, they wanted to have a kind of pure practice for Americans.

[13:51]

They wanted to offer us a kind of pure practice. freed from all of the inconsistencies in Japanese practice. So we didn't have much contact with Japan for the last 30 years. But when Suzuki Roshi ordained priests, he had a lot of trust in the people that he ordained. But I think that after the first generation, the second generation of priests needs more study and more

[14:55]

control and more accountability to what they're doing. So, I think a priest should have monastic practice and a priest should be dedicated to... the first order of dedication should be to the practice. You know, in Japan, monks were allowed to, or actually made to marry and have families. And so that's become a kind of part of the practice and nobody questions that too much. Originally, you know, one of the reasons why monks were celibate is because they practiced magic. in the olden days.

[15:57]

I read recently that Shinran, who was a priest at the Pure Land School, married. This was in the 13th century, which was kind of unusual for a monk to marry. But the reason that they didn't, that they allowed him to do that was because he gave any ties to magic. Because there's something about... I don't know if magic is the right word. I'm not sure that magic is the right word, but certain kinds of spiritual powers that monks were endowed with or strove for or were involved with. spiritual powers that were taken away by sexual activity, diluted through sexual activity.

[17:05]

So, I think magic is a little too strong a word, but I think spiritual powers were undercut through having sexual activity. But it came out as magic. When the Buddhists came to Japan, magic, they interested people in Buddhism in Japan through kind of spiritual power or magical powers. This has always been a Enticement, you know, in religion. The opiate of the people. Dogen was totally against magic powers, developing magical powers.

[18:09]

And Dogen's lineage actually should maintain a very pure practice of Buddhism. So, priests are allowed to be married and have families and should be faithful in their relationships and not promiscuous and dedicated to taking care of the practice, to developing their own spiritual practice and to helping people do the same. And often priests take a very high position and are considered very special. And it is a very special thing to do.

[19:12]

But if you advertise it as special, then you create a kind of false image of what a priest is. Priest activity should actually be very humble, because when you become a priest, it's a kind of renunciation. Typically, priest to be ordained is called renunciation. And the biggest thing that one renounces is sex. if one becomes a priest, without renouncing sex, one should at least have some relationship with it that's wholesome or that's dedicated. And it's the kind of commitment where

[20:24]

It's the last thing in your life that you want to develop. In other words, I would not ordain someone as a priest who thought that five years down the line they wanted to do something else. And to just kind of have it as a honorable thing to put in their pocket and put on their resume. It's very difficult to live a life of renunciation in America. We have to have automobiles. We don't have to do these things, but to live a practical life, we have to be part of the life of the community. The great challenge for someone who is a priest is how to maintain their practice as a priest, and at the same time, to be part of the community.

[21:38]

Not apart from it, but to be a part of it. So, there are various ways to be a priest. One is to go to the monastery, and stand apart from society. And the other side is to actually work within society. And both of these aspects are important. One way a priest works is to take care of the Sangha, teach people how to practice, and take a humble position in helping people to practice, and giving up selfish notions, giving up self-centered activities.

[22:42]

And then the other aspect is to actually be in society. This is more advanced practice, is to actually just go into society without any recognition or designation that you're a priest, and just practice as a person, an ordinary person in the world, without... kind of as a layman, as a matter of fact, like a layperson. Practice sort of like a layperson, but to have a totally solid practice. So a totally solid practice would be that Zazen is your first order priority. And you would maintain a practice of daily Zazen, and then working in the world, and then in the evening

[23:54]

You practice Zazen again so that your whole life is Zazen and activity which is non-self-centered activity, responding to the needs of people. This is actually what lay practice is in its highest form. And it's also a priest practice in its highest form, you might say. But a priest wears a robe and is more visible. So a priest sets an example for people, should be setting an example, because the person is visible. And people look at you and they say, oh, you're a priest, so you must be something.

[24:59]

But a priest is also a person, half good and half bad. And the way a priest develops is through getting feedback from the community. One should not be afraid to give a priest feedback when you see that they're not performing the way they should be. So not everyone needs to be a priest or should be a priest. And in some way, everyone already is. When we have lay ordination, It's a kind of priest ordination. One is an ordained person acting out their life in the world.

[26:10]

And a priest is without any special clothes. And a priest is a person who takes certain vows and wears certain kind of clothes and is visible and accountable. Accountable to everyone. So if you're a priest, you're no longer living your life just for yourself or for your own reasons. You actually let go of that, or should let go of that. When I come to the Zendo,

[27:21]

I don't do it because this is what I like to do. I do like doing it. But sometimes I don't like doing it. But it doesn't matter whether I like doing it or don't like doing it. I just do it because it's my intention. So it goes beyond your feelings or whether you like it today or don't like it today. But at Berkeley Zen Center, We have a small number of priests, and we will have two more, and in the future we'll have some more people that are priests.

[28:37]

For a long time I didn't want to ordain anyone as priests, because I wasn't sure what it means for us, but people want to be priests. And I say, no. And then they persist. And I say, no. And sometimes I think someone could be ready at some point, but isn't ready now. And so I practice with them for a long time until they get to a point where they're ready. and we trust that it will work. By ready doesn't mean that they're perfect, as I'm not perfect, but that they're in a position to continue to develop.

[29:44]

I trust that they're in a position to continue to develop, and that's the basic thing. I know they're not going to run away, and I know that they will have problems, and I know that their problems will be dealt with through their practice, and that they're willing to do that. It's a very subjective thing, I have to say, very subjective. You can't say that after so many years a person should be a priest. There have been people who practiced 25, 30 years, in a very steady, wonderful way, dedicated.

[30:50]

But those people should not necessarily be priests. I think it's very important to have people who are really good examples of lay practice in a lay practice. And if all the lay practitioners who have such a wonderful practice become priests, then everyone will think, well, then I should become a priest too. And this is a problem. Everyone should not be a priest. We should have wonderful, dedicated lay practitioners who are lay people. And this is very encouraging for the lay community. And these people should be recognized. We haven't got that far to do that.

[31:51]

So there's still big questions about ordination. But in the meantime, we are ordaining more people, a few people. And I think that will help our practice. I'm sure it will. So I wonder if you have any questions? Anything that comes up to you? Greg? You said the second generation of priests need more study, and then you said control. What do you mean by that? Control. Control... I guess what I mean by control is making sure that they're not just going to parade around, you know, as if being a Zen priest was something

[33:34]

You know, like, one can set up, someone will become a priest and then they go and they set up some place for themselves and set themselves up as a teacher, right? And people look at them and say, well, this is a priest, so they must be a teacher. A priest is not necessarily a teacher. I think we have to understand that. A priest is a priest. I mean, and when a person becomes ordained, they're a novice, even if they've been practicing for 25 years. One of the differences between our practice and normal practice is that normally, when you go into the monastery, you become ordained right away. And then you practice as a novice forever, for a long time, or for whatever. People practice for 10, 15, 20 years, and then they become ordained.

[34:37]

So it has a different feeling, right? And so these people can't be treated exactly as novices when they're ordained. But there is a certain kind of novitiate period that they should go through. learning to be a priest, which is different. And usually when the commitment at Zen Center, San Francisco, is that they, when they're ordained, they study with somebody as a teacher for five years after that. Here, we don't have this kind of system. I feel the people that I ordain will always be studying with me as a teacher. So I don't have to worry about that.

[35:40]

I mean, I might have to worry about it. But as a matter of fact, sometimes people leave, but they still see me as their teacher. But I don't care if they want to have some other teachers, fine too. So by control, I mean not trying to control them, but keeping them from going off and setting themselves up in some way. Susan? What kind of expectations do you think is appropriate for the larger community to have of a priest? When you see somebody walking around with their okhasa on, do you then think, this is a person I can go to No, but on the other side, what should they let you know? They don't have to let you know anything. All they have to do is do their practice.

[36:43]

Do they not have also a task to help other people in a particular way that a priest might not? A practice discussion or something like that? No, not necessarily. A practice discussion comes after one has been shuso. And then, but not automatically. So, people who practice this are not necessarily all priests. So, lay people who have been around for a long time and have been shuso and are very steadily practicing here every day, they can be practice instruction. But just being ordained doesn't do that. So being ordained, it's like a separate line through the other lines, through the practice.

[37:51]

And at some point, that person will be. they'll be eligible to be a practice leader, but not necessarily. If there is inherited being a priest, some responsibility towards the sangha, There is. That's different. I know there's a responsibility towards their own practice, but what is their responsibility towards the Sangha and their fellow Sangha members that was different from when they were retreats? Well, it's that they do it. In other words, it's like they're here every day. That's what I mean. It's like this is their focus. Doing Zazen every day is their focus.

[38:53]

Taking care of the, you know, liturgy, you know, training people to do the bells and stuff, you know, and just taking care of the business of the practice, day by day. That's a different expectation than we would have of someone who was a layperson. Layperson people volunteer, and we ask that the priest has volunteered through their ordination I'd like to ask Andrea and Grace, but they're not here, why they want to become priests and in their absence. Is there any way you can answer that? Well, after they're ordained, you can ask them. You can ask them that this afternoon, but not before they're ordained. They might run away. You said priests can be married or have an intimate relationship, but we expect them not to be promiscuous sexually.

[40:12]

I was wondering, and you didn't say, we expect them not to be promiscuous with your money or cars. special emphasis in religions on sex. Wow. And I just wondered, you know, does it mean that that's really the... is that because it's the deepest and most powerful desire human beings have? For most people, yeah. That's a special highlight. I think it is for most people. But also, I think you're right. We shouldn't be promiscuous with cars and money and flamboyant, you know. Because it is renunciation, right? And so you should be content with just what's necessary. I think that's the point, is to be content with what's necessary and not to be driven by desires to make that effort.

[41:20]

And even though you make that effort, you still may be. But you work with that. You know, you're constantly working with that. That's a good point. Yeah. Well, you know, sex is a... You can do without cars. You can do without a lot of things. But for most people, cutting off or cutting off sex is a big deal. Not for everyone. Not for everyone. But... Yes. You know, it seems that through most of Buddhist history, when people wanted to take on ordination, they decided that that's what they were going to do. And they did this monastic kind of renunciation, and they took on the robe, and they took on the peace, and they practiced that way.

[42:26]

And in Japan, we have this sort of different style of practice. And kind of what we have is this thing that's, you know, we don't give up sex and relationships. We don't necessarily give up our jobs or careers or our families or whatever. And in this case, it's a thing that, priesthood is a thing that you confer after a long time of working with somebody and sort of watching them. It's not something that I would simply decide I wanted to take on and take it on. That's historically been the case. So my question is, and so I guess for that reason it becomes this sort of status thing. It has a quality of it's like a prize in some way that's conferred. And so I guess my question is, what is it really that is renounced? The status. And the pride. And all that. Ego. What is really renounced is ego.

[43:28]

And the problem is that it can be just the opposite. So we have to always be careful that it doesn't turn into its opposite, that what is actually a renunciation of ego doesn't become egotistical. Thanks for that.

[43:54]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ