I have another title for my talk and the titles help me or grant me the illusion that maybe I have a new subject, but really I think there's a theme developing in my practice period and how I'm practicing. I'm just finding different ways to say it. And the title is independence and interdependence. And sort of as a prelude to that or a preview, before I sort of get into what I think I'm going to say, I want to talk a little bit about Sangha life, or the Sangha jewel. In the precepts class, we are reminded of the first three precepts, which are the three treasures, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

[01:05]

And the Sangha jewel is, as I've said, a great benefit for me and has been a real entry, a Dharma gate for me, an entryway for me in this practice. to be here with all of you and in these gardens and in this building, all the sort of manifestations that make up a Sangha jewel. And I wanted to say something to all of us, older students, newer students, people from other centers, people who are just here, about practicing together and how we take care of the place, which is taken care of very well by all of us, actually. And some of you may not know exactly how to participate in taking care of the place.

[02:14]

And I wanted to just say a word about that so that maybe you would feel more invited or Maybe we could get you to do a few things. My purpose is in that, you know, this is a pretty special place. If I had the opportunity to be the head student in another situation, most likely it would be in a monastic setting where I and the practice period participants would just be doing practice period following a schedule from early in the morning till late at night and we would all be focused on taking care of the place and each other and following the schedule and doing a whole lot of zazen. As it is, this place, we come together in the morning and the afternoon and in between we go off to our busy lives and so there's no one really here

[03:21]

holding down the fort, so to speak. And so it requires each of us sort of coming back and polishing the wood or putting the tea kettles away and that sort of thing. And everybody does it and everybody can do it. And those of us that have done it for a while or do a lot of it may forget that you don't, that people who don't do it so much, may like an invitation or just the information that we're here together and there's no special sanction actually you know you don't have to pass some test we don't measure each other's spine and when it's straight enough you get to serve or something like that it's really it really kind of arises together our need for each other to participate in our individual need to serve or express our practice.

[04:27]

So I want to encourage us to express our practice if that means going up to someone and saying I want to learn how to serve or I want to clean the altar or I want to lead the chant or I want to know how to help. We want to come to each other more. And we sometimes forget because we just sort of, like anyone, take the direct route there. You know, oh, I'll just do it. You know, I'm here. I know how to do it. I'll just do it. Whereas if a little extra effort, I could turn to someone and say, would you like to do this? Well, I would like to remember to do that. But I would like you to also come to me or someone else and say, I would like to do that. Then you'll get to do it. And then we get to take care of this place together. And we get to be in relationship. And through the complex web of relationship, we realize our true nature, rubbing up against each other.

[05:36]

So I wanted to dispel any notion that there's a special way of being here or getting to do things. And more or less just ask somebody who looks like they know what's going on. Ask Ross or Alan. They usually know what's going on. And join in and express yourself and help all of us out. When I thought about saying those few paragraphs about our practice here, what came up was relationship. And I know in this practice period, a lot of what we've been, a lot of what's come up both in my talks and in discussions has been busy lives, work, realization in the midst of activity,

[06:48]

And, you know, Freud said, I don't know what he said, but love and work are the two things that come to mind when I think of Freud. Those were questions for him. And one of the subtitles of Joko Beck's, I think, first book is love and work. Love and work. So it's sort of like these two domains pretty much capture everything that, we try to do and so I thought I would just take a little bit of a turn into relationship a little bit since it's been coming up for me and since talking about Sangha life brings up how do we relate to one another. And I had also been thinking about independence and interdependence so as I meditated on this talk some connections came up. and I will be very interested in what connections come up for you as well.

[07:55]

I'm going to start with reminding us of a little passage in the Sandokai that says, to be attached to things is delusion. to understand that all is one is not enough each and all of the elements of the subjective and objective spheres are interdependent at the same time independent related though each thing keeps its own place Actually the phrase that came to mind was related though each thing keeps its own place. That was the phrase that's come up over and over again since the Wednesday night group. How do we practice with related though each thing keeps its own place? So this is to me related being in the context of relationships.

[09:14]

how to do that so I thought about what happens in relationships and you know you don't need me to tell you that they're pretty complex and they're pretty pervasive in our minds and bodies and they produce emotions reactions things happen when you're in relationship And they happen within me, things arise within me, but that would be hard enough just that things happen within me, then there's this other person in front of me. And there's this attachment to this person in front of me, even if they're he or she is not a primary relationship. You know, it doesn't take much for me to get attached either to the person or to my place in front of that person.

[10:21]

It's actually pretty phenomenal how attached I can get to myself, especially in a relationship. Anyway, so since one of the emotions I've brought up in this practice period that's been sort of fiery and kind of new for me is anger. I use the example of anger. And since I had a fight with my husband recently, that's a really good example. I'll stick with that, the anger. So anger arises in a situation and First thing to do when working with an emotion is to recognize it. To even recognize that it's happening.

[11:24]

Even better, to recognize when it arises. But next best is to recognize that it has arisen. That's still pretty good. And we call it anger. And there are things that go on in us that let us know it's anger. And then I had a question, is it anger? Or what is it that's anger? So then this notion of independent and interdependent came back up when I thought about anger. I think there's an independent side or nature to an emotion like anger. And I use this example before and I want to use it again, but I'm going to clarify it because I've sort of changed my mind a little bit about it.

[12:24]

We're going along in our life sort of like this, you know, I would say minding our own business, but probably that's not the case. But still we run into this anger. We collide. And I said that this emotion sort of came from beginningless beginning and goes on for endless eternity. that it's sort of this thing we run into because we tangle with it and we identify with it, we think I'm angry and that that's me and then we get all upset about it because we don't realize that it's an intersection, that it's something arising and that it's something that will pass away. The experience of it is very compelling and so it's very easy to believe that I am that thing and it needs to be answered, gotten rid of. Satisfied is usually what I want.

[13:28]

I want it to be satisfied. I want to be right. But what this is, is not so much that this is a definite thing called anger that has its own being apart from us. It's just that there's energy out there. So there's this independent sort of thing we call anger, but it's not like it has its own being and that it's this thing. But these energy fields we run into, they exist. It doesn't make them real. They exist. We run into them. So there's this independent side of this energy that we interact with There's this interdependent side, which is there's a recipe kind of feeling to something like anger. Anger is not this thing that you pick up.

[14:33]

It's like a recipe. It's like, I'll get with the person that means the most to me. and I'll talk about something in the house that's important to me, and I'll add the fact that I'm tired, and that tomorrow's a really busy day, and boom, you know, chocolate cake. You know, I've got the flour, the eggs, I've got all the ingredients, and together they make a cake. So cakes don't, cakes exist, but they also have followed a recipe. So a cake is a cake. mixing up of these ingredients are the mixing up of these ingredients and that's what I spend a lot of time doing sometimes with my mental states. So recognizing this is a big step, recognizing that you know I'm in a relationship with Paul and I'm already got predispositions and then we start talking about something mundane or what feels serious and I realize I'm perceiving something I'm perceiving something coming from him whether or not it's true but I'm perceiving it as something let's say I perceive it as anger well I start reacting to that I don't like anger coming at me

[15:59]

when people are angry with me, I start to feel stupid. I don't know why. And it almost doesn't matter why. It can matter why, but for the point, I start to feel stupid. And then immediately I'm just, I'm in a whole other conversation now. I'm not in a conversation about whatever the topic was. I am defending myself against feeling stupid. because it's so painful to feel stupid and it's painful to perceive that the person I love is angry with me. So I start being a good sort of new age person. I start communicating my feelings. I feel stupid. You're making me feel stupid. I communicated in a way that isn't really about me being in my experience, but it's about being right in the fight. So here I was just maintaining my position and you came along and made me stupid.

[17:01]

Well, you're being unfair to me. So you need to stop what you're doing. Well, now the other person gets to have a reaction. You know, when I'm accused of doing something wrong, usually I have a reaction to that. And Paul got to have a reaction of like, he's now in the position of having made me feel stupid. That makes him angry. But he doesn't necessarily know in that moment he's angry. I don't know that I'm feeling stupid. He doesn't know he's angry. And now we're defending our positions. And now we're in a whole other, we're in a whole other conversation. And we're lost. We're totally lost. And it didn't take us very long to get lost. You know, I have a paragraph, a paragraph on good days, maybe, you know, maybe many days we might avoid this, but. But that was this this thing that happened.

[18:02]

So we did not recognize it till much later. Recognition might have looked like something like. Oh, I'm feeling really stupid. I'm feeling really scared, stopping and staying with that. That's my independent experience. I'm over here having this experience that's about me. Sure, Paul was there. It could have been anything. If it wasn't Paul, it could have been a traffic cop. It could have been anything. It just so happens Paul's there a lot. So it looks like it's Paul. But it could have been anything and it usually is something. And to recognize I'm having a feeling and I need to take care of it because I'm here, I need to take care of it, requires slowing down, requires having a partner who might know that you're going to try to work on it and will slow down with you.

[19:15]

It would require Paul to slow down and go, Wow, I'm angry, but not because you want to move the furniture this way or because something happened, but because you've made me feel responsible for your suffering. You know, it requires a lot of slowing down. It requires recognition. In order to recognize our feeling, you know, we have to see it very clearly. The second step would be to accept that we're having that feeling. To accept that I'm feeling really scared and stupid over something really Ordinary requires that the feeling be there and that I don't allow myself to arise up with it. Feeling stupid, feeling scared. I don't have to be there feeling it. It's there and it's, you know, it's there. I don't have to let myself arise up with it. That's just identifying with it. That's what hurts so much. The other thing that hurts so much is the resistance to it.

[20:22]

So I came up with these two steps. Well, I sort of cheated and I read this other lecture and she came up with these two steps and I agreed with it. They seemed good. But accepting, accepting that I'm feeling it requires, requires really being present. Oh, what it feels like, what it feels like to have this feeling and be present with it. and letting it be okay that it's happening to me with me or you know that it's happening and I'm the container for it. It's very tricky to keep talking about I and then there's this idea of no self it's I mean please do your best. Resistance is a great teacher because if we just had to recognize and accept our feelings, I think we might be just doing really well, but resistance really adds this very juicy dimension to what we have to do.

[21:29]

It kind of takes us over here, but over here ends up being a very useful place to go, but I'm no longer angry. Now I'm resistant to being angry. Now I'm no longer scared or stupid. I'm resistant to that. That resistance produces a whole new set of requirements for being present. Unfortunately, I think it requires the same two steps, recognition and acceptance. It's really difficult to recognize that what it is I'm going through is resisting what I'm going through. Once I recognize it, I usually don't accept it. I'm usually pretty upset about it. And then you see the heads start piling on top of the heads, you know, you're just judging yourself for judging yourself and you're resisting your resistance and it just it's a real spiral it's the big fight you know it's hard to accept hard to recognize and accept when you're facing that other person there they are looking at you there you are looking at them and the opportunity and the

[22:45]

the temptation to get all entangled is practically irresistible. So how do you stay related to them? Keep your own place. Clarify what's going on between you. Clarify what's going on within myself. So think about how to work with that in recognizing that it was very difficult to do it facing someone. I had a new appreciation for why we sit down on the cushion to face ourselves. to be with ourselves, face the wall.

[23:49]

You know, this is, I think, fairly sophisticated work just to do those two steps. And for me it's been important to sit Zazen in order to practice the point of stillness, to recognize the point of stillness, the point where I can recognize what's happening and accept what's happening. recognize what's happening, resist what's happening, recognize the resistance, accept the resistance, accept it. What all the permutations that we go through hard enough to do when I'm sitting on the cushion and nothing's bothering me. Well, it's very easy to see everything's bothering me and I'm just sitting there and no one's requiring anything of me. So how much harder to do it with each other? So I have this new appreciation for sitting still and just practicing the relationship I want to have with others with myself, practicing this relationship with myself.

[24:54]

So that when something arises in me, there's like this independent thing, like it's arising. No me is needed. It's when I first studied Buddhism, one of the first books I read was a book by Sansanim, Dropping Ashes on the Buddha. And I think it's that book where he uses when the mirror, something like we're a mirror, when red comes, the mirror's red, when something like that, when blue comes, the mirror's blue. And it's sort of, I want to say this, and I don't know if it's right, but it fits for me right now. When anger arises, what I am is anger. It's not that I am angry, or that there's a self, it's just that this existence, and I do exist, but I am not real, like there's not an I that's real, that's separate, that's independent, but there is this existence that's separate from this existence, and it's separate, and there's an independence there, and I have to keep my own place.

[26:07]

There's not a fixed self, so anger comes Like to actually just, I am not angry. Anger exists now. All I am is the container for what's arising. And I think this is somewhat related to what Dogen means when he says, when the myriad things come forth and actualize themselves they, you know, we need each other or dharmas need individuals within which to actualize, to live. Anyway, I have a few random sort of, they related at the time when I thought of them, so let's see if they still do. I wanted to read the passage in Suzuki Roshi that talked about independence and interdependence that sort of sparked this for me. Probably should have started with this. Here we have the freedom of existence.

[27:15]

And there is no quality connecting you and me. When I say you, there is no I. When I say I, there is no you. You are independent, and I am independent. Each exists in a different moment. But this does not mean we are quite different beings. We are actually one and the same being. We are the same and yet different. It is very paradoxical, but actually it is so. Because we are independent beings, each one of us is a complete flashing into the vast phenomenal world. So this is kind of a radical notion. I like this idea that I'm independent in a way, sort of like this relief, like I get to do my own work.

[28:21]

I think when I was a little kid in school, I was, I used to do my own work when I was really concerned what everyone else was doing, like how their art project was coming out or what they were writing. And like, I was like, kind of like this, like, what are you doing? And finally, I just have this feeling like I want to do my own work. It's no better or no worse than anybody else's. It's just the work I've been given to do and there's karma and there's some realization and I don't know what will happen but I get to do my own work. And so do all of us. And Mel helped me with something. And it has to do with the difference between existence and reality. And I'm really still chewing on this and maybe we can all chew on this a little bit together. And that is that reality and existence are not equivalent. They're not the same. I'm not going to tell you what reality is because I don't know.

[29:27]

Things exist. They happen. The question is not whether you're experiencing something. The question is, are you free from that experience? Are you free from your attachment to that experience? I think this is what liberation is offering. That we don't stop having experiences, things don't stop existing. No self doesn't mean you die and go away. It means you're free from the hindrance of them, or you're free from attaching to them. That things exist doesn't make them real. That we think they're real, that we attach meaning to them, that we identify with them and resist them, think has something to do with our suffering. From original mind's point of view They just arise and pass away.

[30:33]

So, what time is it, Ross? It's eight minutes to one. Perfect. So what do you know about this? What can you help me with? Sue? Yeah? your expression of Sangha and Dharma in your life. I think that what you're saying and sitting on the Zathu, and that recognition and acceptance often comes up.

[31:47]

And feeling stupid is really a common experience for me, and wanting to be right in all of that, and I think that just is the way it is. And it seems to me another step in that process for me has been down to, what is it I want? And then it takes courage to speak that. It's not that I have to have it, but to know it. I want to save someone, and I do. And it's not somebody's fault. It's just the way it turned out. And there is that still point. And I think that that's, for me, that there's nobody else I can do that with except my husband. And that's the place where

[32:48]

That's very well said, and thank you for bringing up that question of what is it I want, that's exactly, that makes sense to me too, that's the unspoken thing that needs to be recognized, and it's like you said, it's not so much that I need to have it, I think I need to have it, I need to say it, I need to speak what I want, so that. And it's often. I think when we really experience our own independent sort of karma life and what's coming up, when we're really with it and not fighting it, what naturally arises is our original mind and I think those things arise.

[34:16]

Wanting peace for each being, wanting happiness, wanting things that just feel wholesome and good. I think that naturally arises. But what is also amazing That's the best place to start. I mean, those are our Dharma gates, really. the end of your talk was reaching out and asking for help, which is something that you had finally done with me, as far as helping me with the situation now. And I completely feel that I just kind of got snowballed under and completely forgot.

[35:23]

So to get back with you about it, which let me feel very stupid, Or maybe you did help somehow with wrestling with the anger you've been looking through. So I hope that we can get that together again. Get that picked up. I had no ill feelings. Thank you. Audrey? I wanted to say thank you, too, to what you're talking about today. It's like the meat and potatoes of practice, the grist. It's what makes sense to me when we talk about, you know, we tend to see what happens in life as problems, instead of seeing them as opportunities. And kind of getting to that place, you know, there's a real gratitude to the person that makes us mad, So I just, I just thank you.

[36:40]

I thank you for your openness and bringing this hope that it will make it easier for me because I struggle with this stuff all the time. Mark, thank you Mark. Actually, that exact notion helps me sometimes put, like, for instance, since I do a lot of my relationship work, the deep work with Paul, is putting him separate and getting curious about him. And that's a really nice quality. And using it for myself is a little harder, you know, but I think it's a really good, it's a nice quality to bring to yourself, curiosity. It dispels judgment a little bit. Great. I've always been absolutely terrified of anger.

[37:43]

I have this giant body, and most people are kind of small compared to me. And my father was also terrified of anger, because he's even more giant than me. And to really embody anger could be like a threat to everybody surrounding this thing. But something Dogen said actually helped me. You know, I've always wanted to be really nice and sweet and kind. That's one of the things that brought me to practice, of course. But I was reading Dogen, and he said, he said, you know, you practice to really become who you are, not to become one of these things. And he said, you never know, you might become a demon. But maybe my function within society somehow is just to piss everybody off.

[38:57]

I don't know. I really don't know. But somehow just allowing for that. The other thing that came along with that is I realized, I don't know if these are linked, the Dalai Lama, he didn't wake up one day and decide, you know what? I'm going to be this really great person that goes around the world and says all these great things and makes everybody happy. Really, the world that he lived in, they just found this little baby. And they said, OK, we want you to do this for us. And so I just try to listen to what it is that the world wants me to do. Well, thank you.

[39:58]

I know we have to stop, but I just want to say a couple of short things. One is, since you have this nice big body, imagine the anger you can embody. And there's a difference between being fully present with it and expressing and venting and harming others with it. And that's, as you probably know, the hardest thing is just to let it be there. For me it is. It's much easier to sort of express it and all of that, but being with it, I mean, it may be that anger and fear are sort of commingling for a while. It's possible. And I would say when we start practice, but I've found this happens over and over and over again and probably will always happen, but maybe dim in its intensity. And that is when we get really curious and we investigate who we are, the demons do come up.

[41:00]

And I think that's really appropriate. And sometimes it gets worse and worse. Like you sit more, it gets worse and worse. You practice kindness and like more resentment comes up. It's sort of like, geez, this is like not so good. I would just be aware of fixing a notion of who I am. Demons come up and they may come up for 20 years. It doesn't mean you ended up as a demon. You're just a really good house for those demons to pass through. Who are you? Thank you all for coming.

[41:39]

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