I think we've lost some of our members due to the summer. Today, tonight, I don't know what page you have, but 56, 66 in my book, this is about Bhikkhu Thad and the turning of the Lotus Sutra, or being turned by the Lotus Sutra. What chapter is it now? Well, in circumstances. Temperament and Circumstances, page 3. And the other volume is 109, chapter 7. So this chapter is about, it's a very well-known, famous part of the Sutra.

[02:33]

where somebody asks the patriarch to explain the Lotus Sutra. But it's also about arrogance. And it's about arrogance in knowledge, and arrogance in relationships, and about the meaning of the sutra, the true meaning of the sutra. So, I'll start out. Does anybody have any questions before we start?

[03:39]

Yes. First of all, I don't think that I missed a class, but I think that we're about maybe about four sections ahead of where you... Yeah, well, I'm not doing the whole thing, because if I did the whole thing, it would be endless, even though it's a short sutra. So I'm just taking parts of it. You understand what I mean? Yeah, at some point, I would like to hear you discuss orthodoxy of the Dharma. the meaning of unattachment to external objects and objects of mind. I want to know if that's really how one should posture one's mind absolutely, or is it really orthodox, or is there just, well, no, you can dabble in a little of this and dabble in a little of that, and, you know, it's going to be all right, like water now.

[04:47]

Yeah. Well, is there some particular part you had in mind? Yes. Well, we can do that next. But what part is that? In my text, it's in the discussion of Samadhi and Prajna. Oh yeah, we did that. On page 95. On straightforwardness? Yeah, we did that. Must have been sleep that day. But we did do that chapter. We didn't do all of it. I believe we stopped at the bottom of page 95. That's where I have a... That's where... Yeah, we... I did... The part I didn't do was on repentance. We did Samadhi and Prajna.

[05:59]

And we did Dhyana. We didn't do repentance. So, I was thinking of doing repentance, but I wanted to do this one. So, we'll... Anyway, we did that. You may not have been here every time. I was here every time. You know what, I'll sign it when I get to hear this message. Specifically that idea, I want to hear that. OK. So Bhikkhu Phat Thad, a native of Hung Chau, who joined the Order at the early age of seven, used to recite the Saddharmapundarika Sutra, that is, the Lotus of the Good Law, the Lotus Sutra.

[07:02]

And when he came to pay homage to the patriarch, he failed to lower his head to the ground. For his abbreviated courtesy, the patriarch reproved him, saying, if you object to lower your head to the ground, would it not be better to do away with salutation entirely? There must be something in your mind that makes you so puffed up. Tell me, what do you do in your daily exercise? I recite the Saddhama Kundarika Sutra, he replied. I have read the whole text 3,000 times. We're at 111 now. We're what? You didn't start at the beginning, and people were looking for the page. Oh, it is my beginning. Oh. It starts on 110, and now it's up to 111. Oh, you're right. I'm sorry. I am sorry. No.

[08:22]

That's where it is, ikufatat, right? Well, you know, it's a different... I know, but that's where that's... Yes. So what do you think? This chapter, we thought you were going to start Oh, at the beginning of the chapter? Yes. I'm sorry. That's okay. Yeah, I'm not starting at the beginning of the chapter. I'm starting where it says, vi ku fat tat. Fat tat, yes. Okay. Yeah. Vi ku fat tat. Okay? Yes. A native of Hung Chau who joined the Order at the early age of seven, which is very early, I think in the monasteries they used to take in children, and people would leave their children sometimes at the monastery. They would be little novices, but they were not ordained.

[09:25]

You can't be ordained as a monk until you're 20. But they often had children around. And they grew up in the monasteries and then they become monks later. So he joined the order at the early age of seven. and he used to recite the Siddhambundarika Sutra, the Lotus of the Good Law. When he came to pay homage to the patriarch, he failed to lower his head to the ground. For his abbreviated courtesy, the patriarch reproved him, saying, if you object to lower your head to the ground, would it not be better to do away with salutation entirely? There must be something in your mind that makes you so puffed up. Tell me what you do in your daily exercise. I recite the Siddharma Pundarika Sutra, replied Fathat. I have read the whole text 3,000 times. That's quite an accomplishment. I don't know how you would measure that. I mean, did you start counting from the first time?

[10:27]

I think, well, 3,000 just means a lot. Well, had you grasped the meaning of the sutra, remarked the patriarch, you would not have assumed such a lofty bearing, even if you had read it ten thousand times. Had you grasped it, you would be treading the same path as mine. What you have accomplished has already made you conceited, and moreover, you do not seem to realize that this is wrong. So listen to my stanza. Since the object of ceremony is to curb arrogance, Why did you fail to lower your head to the ground? To believe in the self is the source of delusion. It says sin here, but I don't think that's the right word. Delusion. To believe in the self is the source of delusion. And it's also the source of sin. But to treat all attainment as void attains merit incomparable. So he felt pretty proud of himself, having read the sutra 3,000 times.

[11:47]

And he may even have thought that he was better than the patriarch, who hadn't read it at all. So he felt that he really knew something. make obeisance to the patriarch. So the patriarch then asked for his name. And upon being told that his name was Fatat, meaning understanding the law, he remarked, your name is Fatat, but you have not yet understood the law. He concluded by uttering another stanza, Your name is Phat Thad. Diligently and steadily you recite the sutra. Lip repetition of the text goes by the pronunciation only, but he whose mind is enlightened by grasping the meaning is a bodhisattva indeed.

[12:53]

On account of pratyaya, which are conditions producing phenomena which may be traced to our past lives, I will explain this to you." I'm not so sure about that translation. If you only believe that Buddha speaks no words, then the Lotus Sutra will blossom in your mouth. What do you think of that translation? I don't know. I have to look at it again. If only you believe that Buddha speaks no words, then the Lotus Sutra will blossom in your mouth. The meaning is sort of like Even if you study the sutra 3,000 times, the understanding should be your own. And if you preach something, it should come from your own understanding, even though it's something that you learned.

[14:03]

Otherwise, it doesn't have any validity. Yes? Or are you just combing your hair? No, no, no. I'm timidly raising my hand. When you first read that line, it had the quality of a portrait. It sort of snuck in past my rational mind and hit me with a sense of realization that was wordless. Right. we were back on the words and I sort of suddenly, and what I was hearing it say, whatever the translation is supposed to be, was that there is a wordless place in our understanding that the truth has to hit before it blossoms back into words that we can speak again. And our words need to come from that wordless place rather than from mimicking the words that Buddha maybe said. It has to come from that wordless place.

[15:21]

So having heard this stanza, Font-Tot became remorseful and apologized to the patriarch. He added, Hereafter, I will be humble and polite on all occasions. As I do not quite understand the meaning of the sutra I recite, I am doubtful as to its proper interpretation. With your profound knowledge and high wisdom, will you kindly give me a short explanation?" Well, this is actually the beginning of wisdom, to be able to acknowledge your arrogance, acknowledge your shortcoming, and that opens your mind. the many Zen stories that have this theme, actually. There's a very famous story of

[16:26]

The teacher who had a student was there for three years, but he never talked to the teacher, never talked to the master, never came for him. It's a dog sign. And one day, the teacher said, how come you've been here for three years and you've never come to see me? And the student said, well, you know, I have to tell you, I really got it under my last teacher. And so he said, well, how did that happen? And the student said, the question was, What is... I'm trying to frame the question exactly.

[17:49]

What is it that we seek? Or who is it that seeks? And the student said, The fire boy seeks fire, which means Buddha. And then our teacher asked, well, what does that mean? He said it means Buddha seeks Buddha. And the teacher said, well, if that was the answer, then Buddhism wouldn't have lasted to this day. And so the student was very disappointed. And he said, I'm going to get out of here. And so he left. And then he got a little ways away and said, well, you know, there are 500 students there.

[18:57]

And this is a very revered teacher. got something." So he went back and he made obeisance to the teacher and said, I'm very sorry for my arrogance, please help me. And the teacher said, well, he asked me the question. So the student asked the teacher the question. So, he had some understanding, but his arrogance was standing in the way of his enlightenment. You can't have enlightenment and arrogance at the same time. So, this is somewhat similar.

[19:57]

He's very humble, really humbling himself. So then the patriarch replied, fat tat, the law is quite clear. It is only your mind that's not clear. The sutra is free from doubtful passages. It is only your mind that makes them doubtful. In reciting the sutra, how do you know it's, do you, in reciting the sutra, do you know, N-O-W, do you know its principal object? This one says, spells no as N-O-W. "'How can I know, sir?' replied Fat Tat, "'since I am so dull and stupid.'" And I think that's really going too far. All I know is how to recite it word by word. The patriarch then said, "'Will you please recite the sutra, "'as I cannot read it myself, "'and then I will explain its meaning to you.'"

[20:59]

So Fat Tat recited the sutra, but when he came to the chapter entitled Parables, The patriarch stopped him, saying, the keynote of this sutra is to set forth the aim and object of a Buddha's incarnation in this world. Though parables and illustrations are numerous in this book, none of them goes beyond this pivotal point. Now, what is that object? What is that aim? The sutra says, it is for a soul object, a soul aim, verily a lofty object and a lofty aim that the Buddha appears in this world. Now that soul object, that soul aim, that lofty object, that lofty aim referred to is the site of Buddha knowledge. So I remember when I first read the Lotus Sutra, and if you've ever read the Lotus Sutra, which is, you know, the Lotus Sutra is They are supposed to be the cream of the Mahayana Sutras.

[22:11]

Of course, every sutra says that that's what it is, but the Lotus Sutra is really revered in the Mahayana Buddhist world above most other sutras. When you first start to read it, it talks about these bodhisattvas flying around in aerial cars. It's very florid and pretty hard to get to the meaning of the sutra. I never could understand what the main point of the sutra was, because there's so much going on in the sutra. But I finally realized that it was The point of the sutra is to explain why a Buddha appears in the world. The Buddha appears in the world for a purpose. And when the purpose is over, the Buddha leaves.

[23:13]

So Shakti Muni Buddha appeared in the world for some reason, and then when it was time to go, he left. Of course, he was around for a long time, over 80 years. But anyway, that's the point of the sutra. And the parables are pretty much attuned to that purpose. So, parables and illustrations are numerous in this book, but none of them go beyond this pivotal point. So, this is called living by vow. Sometimes I talk about this, living by karma and living by vow. Most people live by karma, which means just engaging in worldly pursuits and creating karma of one kind or another through attachments and anger, ill will and delusion.

[24:47]

A Buddha lives by vow, which means there's a certain purpose to a Buddha's life, which is to save beings, save all beings. And that's what the Buddha is interested in and doesn't fool with other things. And Bodhisattva makes an effort to do that as well. And a Zen student makes some effort to do that as well. So that's the difference between living by intention, or vow, and living by karma. Someone who has a way-seeking mind is living by vow rather than just living by karma, even though, of course, one doesn't escape karma.

[25:54]

And there's a very famous koan about that. So then he says... Save people from what? What's that? Save people from what? Oh, suffering and delusion. from suffering and delusion. The purpose of Buddhism is to save people from suffering and delusion. So when attachments to external objects stop, doesn't that save people from delusion? Attachment to external objects is karma. Attachment to external objects is creating karma. Non-attachment to external objects is saving people from delusion, saving yourself.

[26:58]

Everyone saves themselves. Buddha shows the way, but Buddha can't help, can't save you. Everyone has to save themselves through their own efforts. There are different kinds of Buddhism. Buddha's Buddhism is that everyone saves themselves through their own efforts. And then in China, Pure Land Buddhism developed. And then in Japan, it became It developed as well. You know, I find when I discuss this with people that no one actually believes this. You know, no one actually believes that the mind can be separated or detached from external objects.

[28:06]

The mind is not detached from external objects. Detachment is not the right word. Detachment is not the same as non-attachment. Non-attached, right. Thank you. Non-attachment is in the midst of objects, to be free from objects. It doesn't mean to not engage. Yes, I understand that. But, you know, I find in my discussion of this that that point is always diluted. That, yeah, you can be attached to a number of things, and the detachment or the idea of detachment is always very, very partial. It's like, you know, people that, well, okay, we don't eat meat, and so, well, yeah, I don't eat pork, but beef's okay, or maybe I just eat chicken on holidays, but, you know, everybody still has something that they designed to

[29:15]

maintain that that's all right or justified in how they perceive things. Well, but there is no rule about eating. Yeah, but I'm talking about eating as a symbol now. You know, as a symbol of... You know, as I sit here and talk to you, I'm only talking to you. I'm not attached to any other idea aside from me trying to communicate what it is that I'm communicating. There's nothing else that's coming in between. this for me. But even agenda is an attachment. If I had some other agenda, aside from the knowledge that I'm trying to perceive in me exploring this question, but I don't even have agenda. I just want to know, is that what it is that I aspire to do.

[30:17]

Well, what do you aspire to do? Detach from everything. No, that's not what you aspire to do. As I said, detachment is not the right word. Unattached, be unattached. Unattached is different than detached. This body is not yours. But you're very attached to it, right? Is that right? Yeah, because I don't even know how to detach. I didn't say detach. That's why I'm so attached to it. I don't have the knowledge of being unattached to it. But you're giving it up moment by moment. Are you going toward birth or are you going toward dying?

[31:28]

I know that I'm going toward death. Well, you're also going to earn life. Yes, I am. But fatally, I will run into death at some point. At what point? Who knows? What about now? Yeah. So are you living or dying? I'm just being. That's right. And where is the one of 10 minutes ago? I can't keep up with that. That's right. You never keep up with it because it's not going the same way as you are. It's gone. I know that. You can't hang on to anything. Yes. Well, don't try. That's what I'm talking about, detachment.

[32:39]

No, that's non-attachment. Non-attachment. Detachment means standing over here while something's over there. Non-attachment in this case means while living you're also dying. You can't hold on to anything, but you live totally in this moment and let go of everything and live totally in this moment. Moment to moment. Without holding on to anything. Without attaching to anything. It's not that complicated. I don't think so either. But what about things that, let's say, attach themselves to you? Like, um, what?

[33:42]

Well, don't let them do that. You know, we do get attached. We get attached to our family, we get attached to things, we get, you know, but life is not so simple, you know, that we can not be attached to anything. We are attached, but within our attachment, we have freedom. It's like saying, don't suffer. Well, you can't say, don't suffer, because you suffer. Everyone suffers. But you have some freedom. If you understand how to practice, you have freedom within your suffering. It's not like when we say, freedom from suffering, that there's no suffering. There is suffering. But one has freedom within the suffering.

[34:47]

One has freedom within the attachment. So it doesn't matter whether we're attached or not attached. You know, you think, well, it sounds like you should shake everything off, you know, like a crab that's got your fingers, you know, trying to shake it off. You can't do that. It's just hang on more. The more you try to be unattached, the more the thing that you're trying to be unattached from grabs you. So you can't try to be unattached. You have to find some freedom within your life. Everybody's attached to things, you know? So, The main thing is not to go around judging people. That's a real attachment.

[35:50]

That's attachment to purity. It's attachment to righteousness, which is the worst kind of attachment. If we want to have non-attachment, we have to do it through compassion. Real non-attachment is compassion. Because we realize how everybody's caught. Nobody measures up to the standards. We have this standard, you know. Can you jump eight feet? Nobody can do it. Everybody tries, but they can't do it. But we don't say they're bad. Everybody is in a different place. This is the way it is.

[36:57]

So our wisdom says we should not be attached to anything. But everybody's attached to something. And our compassion says we understand this. And we have to make allowance for our imperfections. Otherwise, we lead a really miserable life. And we can't stand ourselves, and we can't stand anybody else. The Italians are pretty good. They realize that everybody's imperfect. So, if we wanted to end our suffering, you know, It's not about being perfect.

[38:11]

It's about ending our suffering. Some people eat meat. Some people don't eat meat. People eat different things, you know? And people act in different ways. But the main thing is, how do you alleviate your own suffering and other people's suffering? Which is caused by two things. grasping and rejecting. This is the basis of suffering. Grasping and rejecting. We want to hold on to something that we cannot hold on to. And we want to push away something that we cannot push away. Those are the two basic things that cause suffering. So they're both two kinds of attachment. One is attachment to what we want, the other is attachment to what we don't want.

[39:14]

So, when we know how to be open to things, we can let things come and we can let things go. We can let wonderful things come and we can let wonderful things go. And we can let horrible things go, and we can let horrible things go. And we just expanded ourselves to swallow them. We're big enough to accept them all. Let's see what the patriarch says.

[40:20]

It says, common people attach themselves to objects without. In other words, things. And within, they fall into the wrong idea of vacuity. In other words, vacuity means emptiness. When they are able to free themselves from attachment to objects when in contact with objects, and to free themselves from the fallacious view of annihilation on the doctrine of void, they will be free from delusions within and from illusions without. One who understands this and whose mind is thus enlightened is, in an instant, is said to have opened the eyes for the sight of Buddha-knowledge. I like to go over that. Some people are attached to form and some people are attached to emptiness. This is like in the Buddhist world.

[41:23]

People, you know, get very attached to emptiness and try to cut themselves off from form so they won't be attached to forms. So if you cut yourself off from all forms, then there's nothing to be attached to. But this is unrealistic. There was a Buddhist culture for a long time after Buddha. The monks made this big effort to cut themselves off from objects. And so they would have a pure life. But it doesn't work because This is the old argument about samsara and nirvana. If you cut off samsara, then you just have nirvana. But nirvana is right within samsara. You have to find nirvana within your pain and misery, not by detaching from it.

[42:34]

This is called non-attachment. Non-attachment is actually being able to accept things. It's being able to accept what you don't like and let go of what you do like. So he says, common people attach themselves to objects on the outside, without, and within they fall into the wrong idea of vacuity or emptiness. When they are able to free themselves from attachment to objects, when in contact with objects, it doesn't say free themselves from objects, period, but when in the midst of objects, to be free of objects. To free themselves from the fallacious view of annihilation and the doctrine of void, they will be free from delusions within and from illusions without.

[43:47]

Well, it all comes back to self-centeredness. When you live by karma, that's called self-centered practice. Self-centered practice is living by karma. And Buddha-centered practice is living by vow. So when you're living by karma, You don't have such a problem, so much of a problem, because you can do whatever you want, until it starts to hurt so much that you decide that you want to live by vow. And then you start living by vow, and that hurts too, because then you can't do what you want. Or you feel guilty doing what you want. All these things. As soon as you start putting on the way, As soon as you start clothing yourself in the way, then it really starts to hurt, because you can't do what you want, or you think you can, or you're not supposed to.

[45:12]

So you have to start living by the rules. And then you see all the things you can't do. And then you start questioning the rules. Or maybe they're wrong. So it's very hard. It's hard. So, you know, we practice little by little, making some progress, little by little. If you try to do everything all at once, you want to kill yourself, because you can't. You can't. Even though you make this big effort, you know, and you jump right into it, the fire's too hot when you get there. And you can't do it, rarely. And then you start failing, you know. And so it's best to go little by little. Don't take on so much. But you have to just kind of reorient yourself. When you start to practice, it's a matter of reorienting yourself, because there you are out in samsara, out in the world.

[46:19]

And then suddenly, you find yourself in the middle of practice. And to make that leap is to build and realize, even though I can't do all this, I can still practice. Even though I'm doing things wrong, or what I think is wrong, I'm still practicing. And I have faith in practice that... Practice makes me feel that I'm doing the right thing, even though I can't do the right thing completely. So, you make a big effort, but You have to realize that your karma is very strong. Your past karmic life is very strong. And your habits do not die easily. They do not change easily. Some people can change. Everyone has a different ability. And some people's karma is stronger than others. But we have a lot of patience with ourselves and with each other.

[47:28]

And sometimes it looks like we're all falling off the deep end. They're falling off the deep end. Nobody believes in this, even though we talk about it and so forth, which may be so. But there is progress. sometimes during a period it stops to hurt. Sometimes you think, well, it doesn't exist, you know, so it sounds like maybe I'm falling into that vacuum of emptiness, thinking that nothing exists. Right. Because the pain disappears. I mean, I don't know what happens to it, but it goes away. Right.

[48:30]

So what's the correct view of emptiness? Well, emptiness means form. Even though your pain disappears, something's there. It may not be painful, it may be joyful. So that's the feeling that's there. States of mind are continually changing. States of body are continually changing. And you will not find a place that is empty. Like a nothing. It may feel like nothing, but that nothing that you feel is something. So, emptiness means fullness. Emptiness means form. Right? That's what it says in the Sutra. Emptiness is form. Don't look for something that's called an emptiness. Not something.

[49:32]

It's not a something. Emptiness is the quality of things. Which means... There are two extremes. One is eternalism and the other is annihilationism. These are the two extremes that are delusions or are heretical to fall into. In fact, the idea that everything, that things are eternal will go on forever, even though we kind of use those terms. And the other is annihilation, which means that there is nothing at the end.

[50:34]

Things just go on and on and on. And even at the end of the Kalpa, when the fire burns up everything, it all starts all over again. So there's never-ending beginnings. But that's not eternal. It's just endless. But there is a state of rest. Of rest? Yes. Just being that has rest, that does not have agenda, does not have purpose except for just to experience. But that's constant. That state of rest is constant. Everything is completely still already. It's not that at the end of something there will be stillness. Stillness is the basis of action.

[51:41]

Without stillness there's no action. Everything is completely still. But we perceive it as action. Well, I don't find freedom from anything. I find my freedom within my job, within my family, within my activity. How?

[52:45]

By accepting it totally. Not trying to escape from it. Right now I'm supposed to be taking a vacation. I think I need something, but that's just an idea, actually. Just an idea I have. If I try to pursue that, then I'll feel miserable because I can't do it. So, I don't try to do that. And I'm happy just doing what I'm doing. I'm at ease when I'm doing just what I have to do. Sometimes things get difficult, you know, they do get difficult. Oh, I have a lot to do and I have so much to do. But that's because of who I am and where I am. But when I'm engaged in what I'm doing, it's not a problem. It's only when I think about it, I should be, you know, not so busy. and think about, I should not be so busy, then I might get caught by that.

[53:47]

But if I don't worry about it, and just do what I have to do, then it's not a problem. Just take care of one thing at a time. Huh? You're not tired? Tired, yeah. Yeah, I'm kind of tired. But, you know, the best way for me, is to find the ease within my activity. If I'm not at ease within it, then I'll get tired. So it's not so much the activity, it's how one goes about doing things. And it's true that we need to rest, you know, now and then. And, you know, when you're excited about something, you don't get tired.

[54:50]

You get tired, but it's a good tired, right? When you're engaged in what you really want to do, and you're having fun, and are interested, so then you don't get so tired. But it's when things when you can't quite synchronize with it, it becomes a problem. So, in every activity, and things come from all directions, and then you find yourself confronted with problems. So, to, I don't know, Just step back and let the problem fill you or be there. Not always trying to solve it, you know. Sometimes I just let a problem be there for a long time without trying to do anything about it.

[55:54]

And then at some point things click in, you know. But then sometimes you have to do something right away. And then you just have to rise to that occasion and make a decision somehow. But And then there are times when things just come in and you can't take care of them because of too many things. This is more the bigger problem, when things start coming in too much and you can't address everything because there's too much stuff. Then your desk piles up, you know, papers on the floor. But I think to really engage and take care of things right away, one thing after the other, one thing at a time, You can do that with non-attachment because you're not trying to do something for yourself. As soon as you start thinking, well, what am I getting out of this? Or what am I gaining or losing?

[56:58]

Then you fall into attachment. But as long as you're just taking care of things because you're part of the flow of things, there's no attachment. As long as there's no I wanting, but just taking care of things, there's no attachment. Attachment comes with wanting. Or not wanting. Or not wanting. Well, it comes with wanting, and wanting not, rather than not wanting. How can you practice with judgment on others? We do judge others, you know. We make some judgment. Or we make some evaluation.

[58:01]

We're always evaluating everybody. Yeah, we're discerning, you know, like, well, this person has these characteristics and these are the things that seem to be good and these are the things that seem to be bad, you know. So we do make those evaluations. But at the same time that we make those evaluations, we don't let those evaluations turn us. around so that we're not caught by the stick. We go to the person and try to understand their heart. Most people are caught by the stick. You know, the old Buddhist parable that when you shake a stick at a dog, the dog goes for the stick.

[59:04]

But when you shake the stick at the lion, the lion goes for the person. So you should always go for the person rather than for that thing that's waving around or their characteristics. You try to get to the heart of the person and not be fooled by their good things and bad things. So this is how you go deeply with someone. So if you have students, You always have to go to the heart of the student and not be fooled by what's going on in this place. And then you're always working out of compassion and you don't get swayed by, you don't hate your student or love your student too much. So you can get fooled. or hating your student because they're so bad. You can't do that.

[60:06]

You just have to go to the hardest and keep working right there. So there's no attachment. Well, David, you haven't said anything yet. Music is really a good example because there's music and then there's the music of our life.

[61:21]

Our life is a dance. Our life is an art form. We can say it that way. It's movement and rhythm and sound and smell and taste and touch and thought. And it's all in this wonderful dance. And if we can flow through it in that way. Because the notes, you know, go by and you never... And someone said, you know, you can play them over and over again, but you can't keep them. What if you can keep the baseline, which is our practice? Right. The baseline is our practice. Always stay with that. And then all the rest is just going by and you just flow with it. So... And then we see people suffering, and we know that they will always be suffering.

[62:38]

There's never a time when people will not be suffering. And There'll never be a time when we won't ourselves have suffering. But to have some freedom within that is something that's beyond suffering that we have, actually. But it can't be explained. But we can't touch it. Yes? I'm just thinking about, is there freedom within the suffering, within it, actually just suffering allowing it, and being free therefore in it?

[63:46]

I'm wondering about that right now. Yeah. Often times it seems so much from here and so you can't get to the heart. Well, that's right. Zazen is a good example, right? Sometimes, you know, we have to always keep getting down to here. Always coming down to here. And then you start to have a lot of problem and pain and so on. And then your breast starts getting short, you know, and your shoulders start and you start getting tense, and that's the wrong way to go. There's no defense. You just have to let go. At some point you realize you have to let go. And that's how you let go of suffering. You accept the difficulty. You accept the pain of your life. And put your mind here. And you breathe with the pain of your life.

[64:51]

And you open yourself to the pain that you're actually feeling. And then you can move with it. You can find your freedom within it. With the pain, you can find your freedom. And it's like fear is the same way. We want to retreat from fear. But if we open ourselves to the fear, then we can find our freedom within the fear. just simultaneously looking at the suffering and, you know, making a movement to sort of back down. Yes. It's that really difficult thing. That's why, you know, I have to take a deep breath. Yeah. Get it all down here. Just keep moving down. Yes. It always gets me when it, because it's like, as you develop the capacity to be present with the pain, to not run away from it, to contract, to do all the things that, basically, highly skilled at doing it, trying to prevent feeling.

[66:12]

That's right, because there's joy in the openness, even though it's painful. But the openness is joyful. So there's joy in pain and there's pain in joy. So then he says, the word Buddha is equivalent to enlightenment, which may be dealt with, as in the sutra, under four heads. To open the eyes for the sight of enlightenment, knowledge, in the sutra it says these are four ways. To open the eyes to the sight of enlightenment, knowledge, to show the sight of Enlightenment knowledge, to awaken to the sight of Enlightenment knowledge, and to be firmly established in the Enlightenment knowledge.

[67:33]

And then he talks about that. Should we be able, upon being taught to grasp and understand thoroughly the teaching of Enlightenment knowledge, then our inherent quality or true nature, that is, the Enlightenment knowledge, would have an opportunity to manifest itself. You should not misinterpret the text and come to the conclusion that Buddha-knowledge is something special to Buddha and not common to us all because you happen to find in the sutra this passage, to open the eyes for the sight of Buddha-knowledge, to show the sight of Buddha-knowledge, etc. Such a misinterpretation would amount to slandering Buddha and blaspheming the sutra. Since he is a Buddha, he is already in possession of this enlightenment knowledge and there is no occasion for himself to open his eyes for it. You should therefore accept the interpretation that Buddha knowledge is the Buddha knowledge of your own mind and not that of any other Buddha." Well, throughout the sutra, he's emphasizing that the Buddha that's being talked about is you, not some other Buddha.

[68:46]

Everything that's being talked about is something that's accessible to all of us. being infatuated by sense objects and thereby shutting themselves from their own light, all sentient beings, tormented by outer circumstances and inner vexations, act voluntarily as slaves to their own desires." So, you know, the second noble truth is that suffering is caused by excessive desire. Having what you don't want, not having what you want, and various forms of that, are the cause of suffering. So, how do you get rid of desire? Well, you can't get rid of desire. You can only turn desire in a certain direction, so that the things you desire don't cause suffering.

[69:51]

But, you know, we always go for the thing that causes suffering, like the moth in the flame. You know, the moth is always flirting with the flame and gets burned up. So, we have to know what it is that we pursue, because we're not going to get rid of desire, or you'd just be flabby, right? You just, you know, wouldn't do anything. You'd be slothful. So, desire is important. Strong desire, really important. But as I said, in the karmic world, it's called desire. And when desire is turned toward way-seeking mind, when desire is turned toward practice, it's called way-seeking mind. So we don't call it desire anymore. But it's the same thing, the same strong passion.

[70:57]

In the karmic realm, it's called desire. And in the Buddha realm, it's called way-seeking mind. So you go with all that desire for Buddha knowledge or practice. So it's possible to live a life that's based on practice. It's very possible. So maybe we should think more about how to do that. I agree with Barbara. We should think more about how to live our life based on practice in various ways. Usually, I don't like to say, you should do this and you should do that. You know, practice is The parameters are rather broad.

[72:03]

The parameters are rather broad, and it's more like an attitude, right? What you do can be various things, but it's the attitude that matters. So when we have the precepts, we don't follow precepts literally, necessarily, but the precepts inform us, inform our attitude. how we approach things, because you can't legislate every move. The Vinaya Buddhists had rules, a rule for everything. You eat this way, and that way, and you don't do this, and you have hundreds of rules about how to act all the time. But not so many people want to practice that way. Maybe some people need prescriptions for everything.

[73:09]

Some people need a rule for everything. And other people don't need a rule for everything and can act more freely, more liberally, without having a rule for everything. I think it might be good to think about what are some good habits to cultivate. I think thinking about what are good habits to cultivate is good. But once you start talking about rules, then things start getting very rigid. So you have the problem of rigidity and righteousness. And sometimes I see people from various other religious practices and see their mistakes, but I also see some things about them that are pretty good that maybe we don't have so well.

[74:15]

But I do appreciate our practice a lot because it's very sane. I really see a lot of sanity in our practice that I don't see in a lot of other practices that are so prescribed, where everything is so prescribed. As soon as you start prescribing things, you get into judgment, and then you start judging people. We're doing things right, but other people are doing things wrong, and as soon as you comparing your righteousness to other people's wrong-tiousness. You really have a big problem. But that itself is a practice. What's a practice? To notice these things. Yes, well that's right, of course. Well, one comes to mind the sheen that I value every bit of the rules and stuff, so I don't have to think about these things and I have a different kind of concentration.

[75:19]

And if that is happening every day of their life, I don't find that to be so bad. No. Yeah. If you take the center post out of the tent, the tent falls down. Right. Now, little sticks on the side or something, you can go with 4 or 40. But that one that runs up the center of the whole thing has got to be there. say, well, we can operate without declaring that this is a tent with a center post in it. And I think that that can be done without taking on judgment or judging and valuing, judging what it is that other people do. I think that we can still have that. I remember as a very small child, probably five years old, I used to go and visit this girl.

[76:26]

And my mother was a very, very meticulous housekeeper. And her mother was not necessarily. And I would go to her house, if she would think that I saw the dog hair on the steps of her house when we would be playing. In fact, she would scratch me on my face or bite me. You know, like in my forehead, I could not, she did not allow me to see flaw in their household. I had to be able to play most innocently in that house with her. And she taught me a very valuable lesson. You know, like by that, I'm not tripping off of what other people are really doing. I just want to know how I should maintain mine. You know, and if that's what it says, if this is an orthodox doctrine, then, you know, I don't want it. I mean, just pour it straight, you know, and then I can take whatever I can drink. Okay. Straight, no chaser.

[77:27]

You know what I'm saying? Okay. Yeah. All right. Okay, so seeing this, our Lord Buddha had to rise from his samadhi in order to exhort them, with earnest preaching of various kinds, to detach. Here it says suppress. That's a buzzword. So it's detach stuff. You can't say that. That's right. the questionable word, to do something about their desires. To turn, actually, to transform their desire from desire to way-seeking mind.

[78:29]

And to refrain from seeking happiness from without. so that they might become the equals of Buddha. For this reason, the sutra says, to open the eyes for the sight of Buddha knowledge, et cetera. To suppress their desire, that's just a word that covers so many, so much, because suppressing your desires does not necessarily stop them. So, people have to be convinced in some way or see the efficacy of why one would turn from desire to way-seeking mind. And then, you do something out of positive action instead of negative action. Although, sometimes suppressing is the right thing to do. Sometimes detaching is the right thing to do.

[79:37]

So, but to just suppress all of our desires is not going to work. But turning, you know, making some effort to turn, even though you know you have this desire, and you honor this desire, suppressing is a funny word, but I think we have to honor our desire and see it for what it is. To see the things that we become attached to and just look at what that really is. And when you see it for what it is, it makes it much easier to let go. If you want to stop smoking, the easiest way is to just see it for what it is. and let go. That's the easy way.

[80:41]

There are hard ways, which are all suppression. They don't work very well. After 10 years you still want to smoke. That's no good. The best way is to see it for what it is, and you know how it tastes bad in your mouth, but you're still doing it, you know, and then to just see that and say, well, you know, why am I doing that? And do something else, not do it. That's the way I quit smoking, finally, 22 years ago. Alan? You had a problem with the word suppress? Well, yes. Say that again. Yeah, probably not. What does it say? Put to rest, yeah. Yeah. Put down the burden. You know, if you see it as a burden, actually, this is what Buddha is always saying.

[81:44]

He's always saying, lay down the burden. Because he sees everybody carrying around these burdens. If you look at people's postures, people don't stand very straight. They're always walking around carrying these burdens. And he's just saying, lay down your burden. You're carrying around all this unnecessary stuff. to give advice and to give order at the same time. So that's to give advice and order at the same time.

[82:45]

To cook and rest. To resume the natural order, actually. So it's nine o'clock, and, let's see, interesting. I didn't know what the discussion would be like at all. Let's. Beings are numberless.

[84:01]

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