Just to sit with everyone. I don't get enough chance to do that these days, so I really appreciate it. Our topic for tonight is an ironic one for me. Virya. Virya Paramita. Which means something like the perfection of zeal or vitality. comes from the same word as virility. It reminds me of a joke that a friend of mine who was a Jesuit priest for many years and married in his forties a woman a good deal younger. And he was eager to have children, but she was young enough not to be in a great hurry. And he's warned her that for him the window between virility and senility might be rather small. best get on with it.

[01:01]

And I feel a bit like that myself. I've been very, very tired the last few weeks. So it's very fitting that I should try to talk about energy, effort. The Chinese for this Paramita has the meaning of essential essence, essence of spirit, single-mindedness and vigorousness, strength and nobility in the first character. And it also has the meaning of to advance, to urge forward some kind of movement. And Paramita, of course, means the other shore. So virya paramita is going beyond the perfection of single-minded pursuit of the essential point.

[02:12]

It should stall out your brain a little bit. Single-minded pursuit of the essential point can kind of get that far. Going beyond the perfection of single-minded pursuit of the essential point. The essential point, of course, is understanding birth and death, impermanence, whatever this life is. And in Buddhism that's considered a matter of the greatest urgency. But of course, you know, it's kind of like saving all sentient beings. We're never really going to comprehend birth and death, or our life, or death. A number of years ago, actually it was about 10 years ago, Norman Fisher gave a talk on the Paramitas of Sachine here.

[03:23]

And he said, we start practice, feeling like we need something, some kind of a gift, some kind of help, in order to understand our life, to understand our death. And we get into Zazen and discover we've been tricked, that all we can do is to give and share and make some effort. just at that point when we feel so desperate. Akin Roshi encourages us to understand that we're human, and that that means we're vulnerable, we're inadequate, we're going to do zazen inadequately, we're going to realize our true nature inadequately, and

[04:28]

Nonetheless, we persevere over and over again, practicing like a baby learning to walk, falling down, getting up again. I don't know if you... Do you know the Traveling Jewish Theater? A wonderful, wonderful group. They did a... Several years ago, Naomi Newman did a one-woman show called Snake Talk. She did it at the Women in Buddhism Conference, and there's a great line in that about effort. It was, she talked about falling down and getting up, and you know, falling down and getting up, and she said, it's one word, fall down, get up. Fall down, get up. Traditionally, there are three aspects of effort.

[05:30]

One is character formation, which is discipline, being taught, taking precepts, learning not to depend on a teacher. There's religious training, conventional religious training, and altruism. Altruism is the big the big one, because altruism is the basic motive of the Bodhisattva. We're pursuing enlightenment, trying to understand all this, not for ourselves, even though we probably got into this to relieve some pain of our own, but for the sake of all beings. So, Akin Roshi reminds us that even Buddha had a hard time, so don't give up. And I remember Mel giving a lecture once, talking about, what do you do when you get really tired?

[06:37]

What do you do when your legs really hurt? What do you do when you're depressed and confused, when you don't feel enlightened? And he said, you just keep going in the dark. Very little steps. If you're in a dark room, especially an unfamiliar dark room, you're not going to go crashing around. You're not going to walk right through to the other side. You're going to go real slow, feeling your way. I've been reading this lovely little book by the Dalai Lama. Maybe you've seen this book, Kindness, Clarity, and Insight. So he has a lecture about the Paramitas.

[07:40]

And his main point about the Paramitas is that they really show us how dependent we are on each other. All our good qualities are dependent on other people. Of course, all our bad qualities are dependent on other people. And our very organization as this body that we know ourselves as is dependent on other people and many circumstances that we didn't have anything to do with. Everything is dependent on various causes and conditions and people and things. But when it comes to things that we call virtue, we tend to kind of take credit for the good stuff, as if we actually were independently responsible for it. And we also tend to blame ourselves for our mistakes and shortcomings, as if we were independently responsible.

[08:47]

So the Dalai Lama reminds us that we need other people to practice the Paramitas, and in particular, that for practicing patience, energy and patience are a pair, they go together. For these paramitas, you need an enemy, because enemies teach us inner strength, and courage, and determination. And those are great gifts, and those gifts can only be given to us by enemies or obstacles or other kinds of difficulty. So these great gifts of strength and courage and determination, we need to repay them. It would be very ungrateful, I think he says vulgar, not to repay our enemies and our difficulties for giving us these wonderful gifts.

[09:51]

So we must cherish them and offer them the gift of freedom from suffering, freedom from the causes of suffering. And that's our practice, that's our understanding. So in order to teach people about the path of liberation, we have to get rid of our own obstructions. And the obstruction to liberation is the notion that we're separate, that we have some kind of inherent existence that's independent. So, the Dalai Lama says patience is not worrying about harm from an enemy, it's also The voluntary assumption of suffering, that doesn't mean taking on problems which aren't your own, in what we would think of as maybe a codependent or a negative way.

[11:06]

The voluntary assumption of suffering is more like suffering in the sense of allowing, suffering the little children, allowing things. to be as they are, and not wilting, not being overcome in the face of suffering, that kind of assumption of suffering, not withering. And being present for suffering, for other suffering, and for our own suffering, and allowing it to be as it is, then becomes the motive for understanding the roots of it. Because when we're really with it, when we really experience it, it's very powerful. And the urgency to understand the roots of suffering, where does this come from, what keeps it going, is very powerful.

[12:15]

So how do we attack the roots of suffering? And that's what I talked about a little bit last time. The koan that we ended with last time. I'm going to read you this koan. And this is about how to attack the roots of suffering. There are lots of koans. All the koans are about this. I just happened to pick this one because I like it. Joshu asked Nansen, what is the way? Ordinary mind is the way, Nansen replied. Shall I try to seek after it, Joshu asked. If you try for it, you'll become separated from it, responded Nansen. How can I know the way unless I try for it, persisted Joshu. Nansen said, the way is not a matter of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is delusion, not knowing is confusion.

[13:21]

When you really reach the true way, beyond doubt, you'll find it is as vassaless and boundless as outer space. How can it be talked about at the level of right and wrong? With these words, Joshu came to a sudden realization. And this is the verse. The spring flowers, the autumn moon, summer breezes, winter snow. If useless things do not clutter your mind, these are the best days of your life. Everybody understands, right? Y'all got it? Everybody enlightened now? Good. I suspect this is not Joshu's word.

[14:23]

As vast and boundless as outer space, although it might be nonsense words, this translation is by Katsuki Sekita, who is, I think, still alive. It was done in 1977. The poem? The punchline. Well, the punchline is, Joshu came to sudden realization. Right before that. Right before. The way is not a matter of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is delusion. Not knowing is confusion. When you've really reached the true way, beyond doubt, you will find it as vast and boundless as outer space. How can it be talked about? on the level of right and wrong. For our purposes,

[15:48]

I think the most important line is, if you try for it, you become separated from it. And then the question that follows that, if I don't try for it, how do I even have a chance? In other words, what is right? What is right effort? And next week when we talk about meditation, which is the fifth one, we'll talk more about effort and patience as they apply to meditation. But for now, we can talk a little more generally about it. as usual makes this a little bit more clear.

[16:52]

The most important part in our practice is to have right or perfect effort. Right effort directed in the right direction is necessary. If your effort is headed in the wrong direction, especially if you're not aware of this, It's diluted effort. Our effort in our practice should be directed from achievement to non-achievement. Usually when you do something, you want to achieve something. You attach to some result. From achievement to non-achievement means to be rid of the unnecessary and bad results of effort. If you do something in the spirit of non-achievement, there's a good quality in it. So just to do something without any particular effort is enough. When you make some special effort to achieve something, some excessive quality is involved in it. You should get rid of excessive things.

[18:05]

If your practice is good, without being aware of it, you will become proud of your practice. The pride is extra. So what we're trying to get rid of is something that's extra. Those traces. The traces of self-centeredness, the traces of trying to get something, the traces of being attached to the result. Just some kind of pure effort. So try not to see something in particular. Try not to achieve anything special. You already have everything in your own pure quality. Already perfect. If you understand this ultimate fact, there's no fear. There may be some difficulty, of course, but there's no fear.

[19:11]

If people have difficulty, without being aware of the difficulty, that is true difficulty. They may appear very confident. They may think they're making a big effort in the right direction. But without knowing it, what they do comes out of fear. If your effort's in the right direction, there's no fear of losing anything. There's nothing to lose. There is only the constant, pure quality of right practice. So there's nothing to fear from the enemy. There's nothing to fear, there's nothing to lose. You can't fail. You can't fail if you understand fundamentally how the way in which we don't exist, the way in which each moment is just one moment.

[20:18]

So the fear that he talks about, and if people have difficulty without being aware of the difficulty, then they're in real trouble. If you think that you've got it right, then you are really in deep trouble. And that's the wonderful thing about this practice, particularly for those of us who are perfections. You know, we're saved. we can let go of it forever. And that's the wonderful teaching of the practice of perfections. I don't know who first translated it that way, but it's a great paradoxical translation from the point of view of Zen. So I'm going to read one more poem and then we can talk about this a little bit.

[21:33]

This is Dogen. Realization, neither general nor particular, is effort without desire. Clear water all the way to the bottom. A fish swims like a fish. Vast sky, transparent throughout. A bird flies like a bird. Can you repeat that again? Realization, neither general nor particular, is effort without desire. The general and particular refer to the absolute and the relative. Clear water all the way to the bottom. A fish swims like a fish. Vast sky, transparent throughout. A bird flies like a bird. It's like when

[22:49]

When our dualistic thinking and our preferences take a break, for a minute we see things just the way they are. The ripples in the water, clear. You can see all the way to the bottom. You can see the fish swimming. And there's space. Because we tend to get all crowded up. in our thoughts, our preferences, and our worries, and trying to get it right. I'm sure you have lots of experience with this. Well, I was thinking about fear.

[24:01]

And it just struck me that fear involves the future. Fear does not involve now. So getting rid of fear has a lot to do with coming back to the present moment. And that's all zazen is really about. It's just over and over again coming back to the present moment. And that's both patience and effort. That's, I mean, that's the clearest example I can think of with patience and effort. You know, the willingness to sit there bringing our mind back over and over again without beating it ourself up that the mind wandered or we fell asleep or whatever. But it also takes some energy to notice and then to corral the mind and bring it back. And just to stay. sitting upright with some composure.

[25:05]

There's the energy just to sit there and the energy sometimes to contain all the pieces that want to just go flying off in a thousand directions. And this can manifest in a lot of ways. I remember my first clue that practice could have any practical value was after my, I guess, my second summer at Tassajara. In the 60s, when Tassajara was just getting started, we didn't quite know what we were doing yet. And we tried to have practice period and guest season all at the same time for a couple of a couple of summers, and so we had the guests, but we had a really intense meditation practice going, many periods a day, and the kitchen staff, which put out meals, fancy meals for lots of people, sat zazen in the middle of the day, in the hottest part of the day, because they couldn't sit at the regular time, and so I remember sitting there from, I don't know, two to three-thirty or something like that, it was about a hundred and twelve,

[26:24]

Anyway, we sat there all summer, and I had rented out my apartment, sold my apartment to someone who seemed very responsible. And I came home after the long drive from Tassajara to find that everything looked just perfect, the cat was in order, everything looked very tidy, until I opened the bathroom door, and the bathroom was covered in vomit. And I just started to clean it. And it wasn't until I was done that I realized that I hadn't yelled and screamed or thrown anything or really been particularly upset by it. It was like the bell rang and I went and did it. I was tired and it wasn't what I needed and I just did it. one of those moments of, kind of, clarity, of just seeing things as they are.

[27:32]

And the energy, it's not, the kind of energy that Viri is talking about is not, it's not something you do with your ego, it's not, you decide that you're going to run every morning no matter what. It's something that comes from some other place, that's not quite so. Particularly, Viriya seems to me to have that quality. I mean, my experience of it is that quality. Because energy does come and go rather mysteriously. You know, you sit a long day sitting, and at certain points you're almost without it, and then at other points you're filled with it. And it just seems to have its own its own independence.

[28:33]

You can do certain things that seem to facilitate it, if you keep your posture and so on, but that by no means guarantees it. And I listened today, I was at the AIDS Center, and a doctor who has been treating AIDS patients since 1981 had come back from Africa, and he'd spent four or five years in Africa, the suffering and what seems, for one point of view, to be massive hopelessness. And on the other hand, he and his teams are just doing what they can to educate and prevention. I mean, the only thing you can do is to prevent more people from getting it. But it was really incredible to hear him go on and on about

[29:36]

year after year is doing this work with enthusiasm. And I asked him how he kept his spirit going, but he didn't really answer. He said the four times he'd been burnt out and he'd taken pauses. But he had no answer, really, about his appetite, his continual appetite for coming back to it. Again, I was just left with this sense of the mysteriousness of it. talking about, he's a grad student at Stanford in Buddhist Studies or Religious Studies, or something like that, all these years of sitting and continuing to study, and it was sort of summed up in the, what else is there to do, frame of mind.

[31:03]

I mean, not as trivial as it sounds, but that you see things from a certain perspective, that really there doesn't seem to be a lot of choice to have, you know, a life of integrity or however else you want to put it. That seems like that's the only thing that could motivate someone to continue on that kind of task. It was no choice in some way. Yeah. I think that's kind of what motivates people to practice for a lifetime, is kind of some some fundamental sense that there isn't any choice but to keep investigating whatever this is, something. At least haven't come across one. Yeah, yeah. Suzuki Roshi talks about the Bodhisattva vow as being a railroad track, a thousand miles long, you know, and you're walking it sort

[32:03]

and you just don't, you know, you don't pay attention to the track much or how it was laid, you know, you just, you know, you're just going in that direction. But otherwise it does seem pretty difficult to understand in a logical sense how, for me, how to persevere without any kind of ego involved. And it seems like sometimes that's the only thing that keeps anything going, is this sense of creation, and it's either or not that some things can put the engine in you. And if that's what does it, I find it hard to argue with it. Well, I think that's true. We do need some push. kind of to get going.

[33:11]

And even the Dalai Lama says that in the beginning, effort is especially crucial for generating a strong will. We all have the Buddha nature, and thus already have within us the stuff through which, when we meet the right conditions, we can turn into fully enlightened beings. The very root of failure in our lives is to think, oh, I'm useless and powerless. It's important to have a strong force of mind thinking, I can do it, but not having this be mixed with pride. Just some basic confidence that even when you don't really see it, that all the stuff is there. But he also talks a lot about a stream of moderate effort steady stream of moderate effort, not trying to do too much. And that may be, you know, part of the secret of doing some things, say like the AIDS work, which, I mean, it's so endless, it's so vast, it's so huge, and you can only do a tiny piece of it.

[34:27]

And if you can't tolerate that and keep going and doing what little bit you can do each day, One is bound to get overwhelmed with it. But to somehow break it down into what can be done right now. Again, this moment, you know, breaking it down, coming back to this moment, this moment, I'm doing this, this thing. And yeah, there's 10,000 other things to do. And isn't that how we always get exhausted? You know, oh my God, that's 10,000 things to do. God damn it, get out of my face. You're laughing. You recognize that one, huh? I'm not the only one who's been there?

[35:28]

But why is it when you make a list, then it's somehow the burden is lifted? At least it is for me. Well, what do you do with the list then? about the whole thing. All I have to do is make the list. Because you know that you'll start working from there. Right. You know you're not going to... Well, getting... But making the list is a start. All you need is a start. And everything else will... Well, that... Because if you don't have a place to start, you're really in trouble. Right. I think it's also that if you have things to do, they sort of like float around in front of your eyes all the time. And it seems much bigger and more confusing than it is.

[36:29]

Exactly. So the minute you capture it and put it on a list, you're freed up. That's right. Because you know you're not going to forget. And you're limiting to what's on the list. It's not quite curvy and long-term. Well, that's right. You narrow the focus. It isn't the 10,000 things. It's really only eight or so. So that's limiting your activity, which is important. aspect of practice. I wonder if that's why the Buddhists have so many lists, Charlie. I belong to a support group of women that came out of a workshop done by a Vipassana woman And it's all women with eating disorders. And the minute I read this woman's book, I thought, she's a Buddhist.

[37:33]

And then when she did the workshop, sure enough, she had jack corn filled there. And it's really interesting to me, because one of the biggest things that we talk about is the inability to stay present. And we were talking about it this week, and somebody said, well, I don't know why I always do this. I'll fix myself a meal and then get a book or turn on the TV. And I know I'm not supposed to, but I just keep doing it. And then I get really upset, and there's no payoff. And all of a sudden, the light bulb went on, and I said, yes, there is. there is an immediate payoff. You get to trance out, which is something you learned to do a long time ago, to zone out and get out of reality and have a good time. And we were talking about this more and more, and it was so clear to me that if you're not present at your life, you haven't had it.

[38:43]

If you haven't sat there and paid attention to what you're eating, No wonder you can't remember how much you ate. And we were talking about this, and I was trying to explain it as I understood it, and finally all I could say was, look, you would not take a sedative in order to have sex. Because you'd wake up and say, well, how was it? It's just simple. And it just seems to me like we do that everywhere in our lives. We're not present for our life. And it's over with and we haven't even had it. We're just zoned out all the time and we have all these ways to do it. And then it struck me that

[39:49]

To call it practice is really good. It's like practicing being at your life. Because so much of the time, I'm not. And I'm sure that that's all very disconnected. It's just been floating around in my head while we're talking. But the idea of Right Effort that came up in that conversation with my group that just really struck me was, you know what? You may not like it, but this is the process of having a life. You may sit there and fidget and fume that you can't watch Gilligan's Island while you eat your dinner. But after a while, you're going to start noticing the dinner more than the lack of Gilligan's Island. And you will eventually get back into a normal formation. we will eventually get back in a normal relationship with food.

[40:50]

And various people in the group have done this enough to be able to back me up. But I really see the wisdom in this. You haven't had a life if you haven't been there. There's a quote I ran across years ago by a cousin, Sakis, the Greek guy. He said, most people treat life like a fretful child that must be distracted until sleep comes. I'm sorry. Most people treat life like a fretful child that must be distracted until sleep comes. Pretty weird. That's really true. And I wonder why we do that. We must have a good reason, don't you think? Or are we all just really stupid? I just feel pain. If I can get out of my body, I won't hurt.

[41:52]

Sometimes it's boredom too. Lots of times. Boredom? Fear of seeing, well, that would be getting out of me. Yeah, fear of seeing reality. Our losses. Seeing things the way they really are might be sad. Loneliness might be a factor. Your companionship when you're watching TV, when you're reading. Mel has a way of compromising. He likes to eat, but he leaves food. Is it the ultimate compromise or the ultimate heresy? I just turned and said, first you take a bite and chew it, and then you read a little bit of the newspaper.

[42:58]

That's right. Well, you know what? It absolutely works. I heard him say that and I tried it. And it works. You're just being present for both events. You're not doing both at the same time. You're doing them in rapid alternation rather than reading and shuttling at the same time. And not even registering how much you've eaten, or what it tasted like, or if you even liked it. Well, I imagine that has a lot to do with why we do Morioke and what that practice is about. You certainly don't get time to eat too much. You don't get time to eat too much, and you certainly don't have any opportunity to be distracted by anything else. I took my Oreo cassette to the group and showed them how to eat Oreo cake. And I said, I find it just an extremely helpful practice. Everything tastes wonderful when you eat this. And when you eat that way, you know, three times a day for some period of time, and you don't have an opportunity to eat at other times, it's really wonderful.

[44:09]

I mean, the mind can create lots of things. I remember spending an entire practice period at Tassajara, literally every meal, thinking about what the cook should have been serving instead, and making up better menus, alternate and better menus. But fundamentally the opportunity is there in that practice to really pay attention to what you're getting. And actually after I left Tassajara and then had to cook every meal for a family, three meals a day for about 15 years, They thought about all the meals that you could have eaten. They thought about, and they told me every three times a day about what I should have made instead, or that they didn't like it. I got, I remember coming back to Sashim for the first time in a long time, and being served something that ordinarily I wouldn't particularly like, and just being so grateful that somebody else was doing it.

[45:16]

You know, it was just, ever since I've just really enjoyed every morsel that has appeared in my bowl, regardless. I didn't have to cook it and I didn't have to think of it. I really appreciate your point about not being there. It's one of Thich Nhat Hanh's big things. We worry so much about our death and we're not even here for our life. What good is it to have all this comfort and all this... And it is very difficult.

[46:16]

Having said that, maybe I should read the part of the other This is Joshu's, the real way is not difficult. Joshu spoke to the assembly and said, the real way is not difficult. It only imports choice and attachment. That wasn't actually his line. Somebody else said that first. But with a single word, there may arise choice and attachment, or there may arise clarity. This old monk doesn't have clarity. Do you appreciate the meaning of this or not? Then a monk asked, if you don't have that clarity, what do you appreciate? Joshu said, I don't know that either. The monk said, if you don't know, how can you say that you don't have clarity?

[47:21]

Joshu said, it's enough that you ask the question. Now bow and leave. The real way is not difficult, and only a poor's choice and attachment is from the Xin Xin Ming, which I meant to bring, which might be in here somewhere. But that's the main line, and it's a long poem that elaborates on that. If you have no attachments, you have positive clarity, and clarity means enlightenment. So if you're not attached or you're not caught by preferences, that's enlightenment. And when Joshu says, this old monk doesn't have that clarity, what he's saying is, he's not attached to enlightenment.

[48:29]

That's a big trap. in Buddhism is getting attached to enlightenment. It's very closely related to pride and thinking that you're doing it and that you've got it and that you understand it. That even enlightenment, or particularly enlightenment, is what you give away. So when he says, do you appreciate it or not, it's supposed to mean Do you get that, little monk? Do you get it that you're supposed to let go of attachment even to enlightenment? So that's kind of the main thing. And when the monk said, if you don't have that clarity, what do you appreciate? The monk kind of was

[49:30]

was needling Joshu on his, there was a little bit of a weakness in his argument, and Joshu, when he pushed it, Joshu said, OK, you made your point, now make your vows. It's not polite to rub your teacher's nose in his weaknesses. It's appropriate to point it out, and it's greedy to rub your teacher's nose in it. So knowing that the real way is not difficult, and only a porous choice and attachment, we can say it's difficult. But to be perfectly honest with you, I prefer it not being too difficult. I prefer it not to be too difficult. I don't like difficulty.

[50:34]

Say more in the next guy. Well, when to make an effort and when to let go, that's the trick. When you are writing something or when you're thinking up a class or when you're thinking up a lecture, you know, there's a point, You want to do a good job, I do, especially if there's a public presentation. And it is certainly possible to overwork it and kind of work it into the ground or work it off into a direction so there's no contact. Or just work so that your muse leaves you. in some kind of driven way.

[51:36]

And so when do you just kind of give it up and take a little space and a holiday and then when do you get back to it again? That's so subtle. And really it's the same even in social interactions. If you're wanting very much to relate to someone So you make quite an effort to put something out there, and then it's so easy to get caught up in that effort and not hear too much what the other person is saying, because... So you're trying to think of what to say next? We are trying to think of what to say next, yeah. I guess that koan, knowing how to beat the drum, just... being able to somehow fall into the rhythm of the piece you're working on or the rhythm of the interaction so that the effort is turning off and on in some rather non-volitional way.

[52:47]

Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with that being present business, which is terribly hard when you have a goal. because the goal takes over and you've got to talk to produce or you have something that you need to accomplish. And of course in the real world we have things to accomplish. Things need to get done every day, whether it's something creative or getting the laundry done or whatever it is. We need to make some kind of an effort. And the effort has to be to stay present. Does everybody know that koan, Beating the Drum? I think you read it. Did you read it the first class? Did we talk about that? Because I marked it for today. Maybe I'll read it later. No, I didn't read it in the first class, but it's certainly in our culture.

[53:49]

It's a great one because it really does talk about that. Kassan said, learning by study is called hearing. Learning no more is called nearness. Transcending these two is true passing. A monk asked, what is true passing? True passing might be paramitas. Kassan said, beating the drum. The monk asked again, what is the true teaching of Buddha? Kassan said, beat the drum. The monk asked once more, I wouldn't ask you about this very mind as the Buddha, but what is no mind, no Buddha? Kassan said, beating the drum. The monk still continued to ask, when an enlightened one comes, how do you treat him? Kassan said, beating the drum. Somebody asked Suzuki Roshi in one of these public ceremonies that they have after Sashins, you know, everybody comes up one at a time and asks a question.

[55:04]

Somebody came up to Suzuki Roshi and asked him, what's the most important thing? And he said, it's under your feet. It's always under our feet or under our nose, you know, it's right there. And we don't always want to do it. Or we're afraid we can't do it. How often the letting go is an effort or can be an effort? I think what you were trying to say has to do with not being attached to the effort.

[56:12]

Does that make sense? Partly. Partly. Or maybe not having an agenda of what I think the outcome is going to be. Yeah, well it reminds me of a very elderly woman who I studied a particular kind of basketry with and she used to say to us, advise us to put a great amount of effort into the form and the content, but at some point she would say, You can do that, but at some point, the basket's going to take over and it might not take on the shape that you want or feel that it's going to. And you'll have to let go because it'll take on its own shape. Somehow that might be what you're saying.

[57:17]

When you make something, you want it to be... Oh, absolutely. You had something particular in mind when you started making your basket. But I realized with practice that she was really right with that one point where if you would just risk letting go, it would have its own momentum. It seems like it's like that. in a lecture, because you don't know what the particulars are, you don't know who's going to be there, and suddenly there are all these other components that could shape it differently. That's right. It might turn out like you thought, but it might not. Never does. And it could be really a completely different experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really a happening. I mean, you think that it's going to be a shape, and then what it really is, is a happening. For me, that's a very good way to learn about attachment.

[58:30]

Raising kids is a lot like that, too. You have these ideas about what to do, and sometimes they work out, but invariably the children they have their own momentum and they come out some way. Being attached to a particular idea about what they were going to look like is very, very frustrating. And I can see it so well in my own parents, who had very particular ideas about how it was supposed to come out, and I did not come out that way. And they're still trying to make me come out that way. I'm almost 50. It's just... There are a lot of things like that.

[59:39]

I learned the basket thing once with a pot, but it took me about five years after. I used to do pottery, and pots have that way You sort of start out with something and the pot takes its own shape and it's not up to you completely. I remember making this pot. I was making this large, it wasn't on the wheel, it was a large pot that I made out of coils. And I had sort of an idea. It kind of was okay until after it was fired. And then it just didn't look anything like I thought it was supposed to look. And it was huge and I couldn't, I don't know, I couldn't find anybody to take off my hands. So I kept it. And one day, maybe five or six years later, I had a large group of people over and I served something in it. And everybody said, oh, what a wonderful bowl.

[60:40]

And I kind of looked at it, and I thought, oh, I thought this was the ugliest bowline anybody ever made. But over the years, it's kind of grown on me, and I've sort of gotten used to the way it is. And I've long since forgotten what I had tried to make. I was very slow in picking that up. I thought that with something like pottery, you ought to be able get it to come out, that that was sort of the point, was to get it to come out the way it had in mind. But that really isn't the point at all. If you can just kind of be with it, it's a wonderful activity, and then something happens. You can be curious, oh, what's this? Suzuki Roshi used to do that a lot. He'd say, oh, how interesting. Come in with some horror story about your life, he'd say, oh, how interesting. What a wonderful problem to have.

[61:43]

I did that when I learned to spin. I used to be a weaver. You know, you just wrestle that fleece and spinning is very, very hard. It's like doing this. It's very hard. And you wrestle with it and you get this knobby yucky yarn, and you get skeins and skeins of it, and then all of a sudden you get really good, and you start turning out this boring stuff that you could have bought at the dime store. And you look back to when you were clumsy, and how interesting the stuff is, and wish you could get back to that. And that's probably the real artistry. Knowing what you know now, can you do that? Gross, Jenna. and

[65:30]

I think about, mainly talking about. flows or it doesn't flow, but the drum is still, you know, beat, no matter how nice it sounds or rough it sounds, it's just the drum's being beaten. Which really, for one who's so perfections-oriented has, again, helped me see that it doesn't matter so much what the drum sounds like as long as you make the effort and beat it.

[67:29]

Though it's always funny to see Mel going to sleep. When he hears a clangy bell or the cuckoo that gets off beat. Yes, I can make the effort to have it sound a certain way at a certain timing and all that. And if it doesn't go well, it doesn't go. So there's this continuous effort to keep going and to stay composed and to keep the energy moving. through regardless of various obstacles or interference or stuff, other stuff in the ground. For me, the key word is flexibility and be willing to accept change and impermanence. I had all planned that I was

[68:32]

more than once. But tonight, when I would be here for the meditation, I'd do it at 6, 5 in the morning. And all of a sudden, things had to change. And I was in a conflict a little bit. I said, well, should I tell him that I must leave? But no. He had a need to talk. This is a couple that I've been helping, like listening to their problems about their marriage, and he came with the two-and-a-half-year-old. They're very happy to be there because I'm there to listen to him, and the little girl loves just running around and exploring all the different things that are in my apartment. So here I am. Shall I say that I have to leave? I want to go to meditation. I don't want to miss it again. But he's so happy to be here. And all these thoughts go racing around, but I can't have a stay here unless I make dinner, but I don't have enough food, so I have to go out and buy food.

[69:41]

So I have to be willing to be flexible, okay, and not get hung up on, well, so I miss meditation, this is very important too. So I just excuse myself to go out and buy some food and make dinner while he's talking about his problems and we had a very nice dinner and he was able to leave on time and I left, well I said I must leave by 7. Well he said I have to leave at 6.30 anyway. It worked out fine but I did have to be willing to let go of the effort that I'm always making to be here on time for the meditation and accept it and enjoy what the change of what it has to give. Make nice dinner and everybody is happy. It's such a hard thing living a busy life and wanting to be there to take care of what's happening right then and having a commitment to formal practice and zazen and training on the one hand

[71:00]

that's what supports our ability and our effort to help other people. And at the same time, you know, if we believe that practice and everyday life aren't different, you know, why do we go to the Zendo? On the other hand, if we believe that Zazen is so important, you know, how can we ever miss it? And I find that continually a challenge. It was particularly a challenge to me when my children were very small, and there was all this stuff kind of happening. But there's always a lot of stuff happening. You know, the children grow up, they come back, other things happen. There's always something happening, and that balance between making the time to sit still and not do anything, and really being present for other people, and remembering that it isn't our practice anyway. It's not really for us. to save all sentient beings.

[72:03]

Very, very subtle. Not obvious. It's a koan, really. It really is a koan, I think so. But it adds energy to, in a way, that tension between the two. And why does the practicing don't, you know, it doesn't get so formalized and so routine, constant trying to interweave between formal practice and the way you live your life and the way you express them in practice. So, in a way, I mean, it can be confusing and frustrating at times, but it seems like a healthy kind of tension to have going. Yeah, I think so. I think that's what makes it kind of exciting and wonderful. It's very different, of course, if you're living in a monastery and there isn't anything else to do. As much as it sounds so good sometimes, and it is wonderful, and it is wonderful to have the opportunity to do that for, you know, a day or a week or a year or whatever, but as one friend of mine said after a couple of years in a monastery, it's not where the problems of real life get solved.

[73:22]

And I think we have an opportunity that's really priceless. But sustaining a focus on that track a thousand miles long is not so easy when there's a zillion million things going on. What's your experience? It's just tricky. I think it's really important to have structure. and have the time for the formal and then make time also for others as we're talking about that you can get really caught up in and not focus and not find focusing sometimes is a problem. Well, I remember a Monday morning talk that Rondi gave some time back and I don't remember too much about the content but she did talk about a dream

[74:31]

that was rather, somewhat baffling. And she just remarked during the dream, which was chaotic and confusing, she didn't know what to make of it, but she said, the form got me through. Remember, Charlie? I think it was meat, there were some steaks or something served. It was outrageous that this meat was being thrown around, but it was okay because it was being served correctly. That's right. The form got her through. It was all right because the form got me through. Somehow that sentence just kept, it continues to kind of ring in my mind. And I feel as if the form I really do like to sit twice a day.

[75:33]

And when I do that, it's like, then the theater aspect is secured. Somehow, sitting, I think, does give us the opportunity of experiencing our life as a theater, a kind of general energy theater. But you get there early. Yeah, yeah, and you get your seat. You get a kind of front row seat. It's sort of a... It's a funny box. It's more than a seat. It's a box. Yes, it is. But this idea of the form getting you through and through, you know, because you have the form, then you have the theater.

[76:34]

I hope you're going to write this up for the skits at the anniversary party. I'll consult with Charlie and Wanda. We have about 10 minutes. There are a couple people who haven't said anything. Here's your chance. When the word balance came up, I was interested in the way that in my mind I think of balance as something that's struck, something that's held, it's kind of a static thing. And the way we were speaking of it, it made me realize that it's not something solid and still like that, it's an ongoing kind of thing between two activities in practicing.

[77:46]

Kind of like a tightrope walk. Yeah. It's not a still point. Yet there is supposed to be a still point, isn't there? In the turning world. The still point of the turning world. It seems to be quartered a lot. T.S. Eliot wrote a great poem about it. is this search or journey that we're on to find that place or that who are we. It sounds like it's being characterized in such a way as to constitute a still point. It's hard to imagine I guess a still point sounds like static.

[79:02]

Well, it sounds like some place you could rest. Well, yeah. And, you know, or something that... Yeah, some place that you would arrive at. Yeah. And stay there. Well, or something that... No, no, no. But maybe just acknowledge that there is something, that there is such a force, not that you necessarily want to stay there. Something I suppose. See, the connotation that I read into it is something that's unchanging. Yeah. And yet everything's changing. Right. So if everything's changing, what is it that doesn't change? If everything's moving, what is it that's still? It helps me to think of the center of a wheel. You know, it's quite a concrete. Because actually, the center of the wheel doesn't move.

[80:05]

Through the eye of a hurricane is what it is. Yeah. But it really doesn't. The center of a wheel really, you know, it's the center and it's... But it does. Sure looks like it. How my bicycle does. Yeah, my bicycle does too. Yeah. There's a very, well, there's a very centered point. And I guess it's Katagiri Roshi says that that center of the wheel is Samadhi. So maybe the balance becomes so instead, more like this, it's just so the difference of orientation is so tiny, and the oscillation is so quick or so tiny as it approaches doing this. That's so, you know, that's so theoretical. But that's, yeah, that's pretty theoretical, and, you know, we're, we're living human beings, and there's lots and lots, lots of conditions just changing all the time, I mean, just even inside your body, not to mention

[81:19]

You know, the whole universe. But who watches? That's another way of thinking about it. What is it that's in balance? Yeah, yeah. Something is... everything is changing and also something is watching. So, somewhere there's a point of view that is watching the change. Seems like it. Feels like it. I mean, I think of that as the center of the wheel. And I think it's okay to have it be kind of mysterious. That's part of energy, is not knowing. And that's, I think, part of why nonsense is, you know, knowing is delusion and not knowing isn't it either.

[82:22]

It should be a little mysterious. And every day, every moment, you know, keep having many opportunities to investigate it. What was the quote? Not knowing is delusion. Not knowing is delusion and not knowing is confusion. That's really well said. That's a wonderful case. So let's sit for a couple of minutes and then we'll close. And the following week Prajna, and as we get into these loftier sounding paramitas, I'll probably talk less and less. And I think that that's only fitting when studying something, the main point of which anything you can say about it isn't worth saying.

[83:37]

If you can talk about it, that's not it. But I appreciate everyone's effort patience with this elusive subject. Usually I like to kind of hang around and chat with people afterwards. Today I have to sort of dash off, so please excuse me. I had one idea. As one reads, particularly if you're reading just poetry or other things, there are statements about prajna. In our collective, we come across things that strike us. Yes, please. We could even compile them if people bring them.

[84:32]

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