The non-dualistic way can be a little critical. The dualistic way says, see how you're separating everything in the hot and cold. And then the dualistic way can say, yeah, but see how sloppy you are, and you're just, everything is okay, and you're not really, you know, hurting yourself. It seems kind of paradoxical. Can one really imagine desire growing away from not being desire? Maybe it just means desire is still there, but somehow you take a different view of it. Well, it's not self-sufficient desire. When you're hungry, you have the desire to eat. So what is actually being dangling?

[01:08]

Yes, it is. It's self. It's the desire which is based on the idea of self. Your desire. And they're very tricky, because you can magnify it. I think that sometimes people supplement themselves with sort of a cosmic selfness. Sometimes religious sects get into this. They subjugate their own personal ego, and they kind of identify with huge ego. But still, there's a sense of wanting to get something. for the future. Maybe I'm making it a bit hard, but it seems to me that she was taking care of her health very carefully, but that she was still as fashionable as she was when she was very sick. And it could be that she was living a normal life, but that there was a difference in her fashion.

[02:09]

I think Buddha had to be very passionate in order to spend, what, 50 years traveling and lecturing and imposing these lectures and teaching. There had to be a lot of passion. He's from the park. Because hot generally suggests that you're clean, you're attached.

[03:39]

You need to have this thing working, you need it to happen. If you don't get it, if you don't get this thing that you're hot about, you're going to feel bad. But this coolness, you know, in Buddhism we talk about equanimity. So it's not just about being cool. But there's an equanimity, there's a balance. Maybe we should move on to the mantra.

[05:00]

Well, just the next line. I was going to just talk a little bit and give some examples of interpretations of what mantra is. Mantra means protection of the mind. Now, I'm going to also just read a couple of things A little bit different points of view, but this is what Shogyong Trungpa Rinpoche had to say.

[06:08]

He was a Tibetan teacher. What he had to say about mantra in the Heart Sutra. The Heart Sutra ends with the great spell or mantra. It's interesting that after discussing Shunyata, form is emptiness and emptiness is form, form is no other than emptiness and emptiness no other than form, that the sutra goes on to discuss mantra. At the beginning it speaks of meditative state, but finally it speaks of mantra or words. This is because in the beginning we must develop confidence in our understanding, clearing out all preconceptions, paternalism, nihilism, All beliefs must be transcended. When a person is completely exposed, fully unclothed, fully unmasked, completely naked, completely open, at that very moment, he or she sees the power of the world.

[07:10]

When the basic, absolute, ultimate hypocrisy is put unmasked, then one really begins to see the jewel shining in its brightness. the energetic living quality of openness, the living quality of surrender, the living quality of renunciation. Renunciation in this instance is not just throwing away, but having thrown away everything, we begin to feel the living quality of peace. And this particular peace is not a feeble peace or a feeble openness, but has a strong character an invincible quality, an unshakable quality, because it admits no gaps of hypocrisy. It is complete peace in all directions, so that not even a speck of a dark corner exists for doubt and hypocrisy. Complete openness is complete victory, because we do not fear.

[08:17]

We do not try to defend ourselves at all. This is the great mantra. Saying gone, gone, gone beyond, completely gone, is stronger than saying should not talk, because the word should not talk could imply a philosophical interpretation. And then the Dalai Lama says, the entire mantra could be translated as, go, go, go beyond, go totally beyond, to be grounded in relief and enlightenment. We can interpret this mantra metaphorically to mean, go to the other shore, which is to say, abandon the shore of some sorrow, unenlightened existence, which has been our home since beginningless time, and cross to the other shore of final Nirvana through liberation.

[09:24]

And finally, this is from Thich Nhat Hanh. A mantra is something you utter when your body, mind, and breath are in one deep concentration. When you dwell in that deep concentration, you look into things, and you can see them as clearly as you can see an orange that you hold in your hand. Looking deeply into the five skandhas, Avalokiteshvara saw the nature of intervening and opening the Cain Bar Canyon. He became completely liberated. He was in that state of deep concentration, of joy, of liberation, that he uttered something important. That's why this utterance is a mantra. I'm from being able to achieve

[11:04]

Dante, Dante, the exclamation marks and all. Because I, when I think, it comes to mind that, I don't, I'm afraid I'll get run over by a car or, or something if I let myself just be that way. But I can't imagine being in a drive-in. At least right now, I just thought I would... How do you imagine that way to be? Yeah. Being on the other shore, you know, I can only, tonight, for some reason, see this world, culture we live in, and I'm part of it. But I don't know, that doesn't really contribute to the discussion.

[12:34]

Well, it does. Yeah. Because going back to what Ron just read about Nirvana, I forget which one it was that you read, but, well, you're talking about water, because the water were both samsara and nirvana. So, we can experience those things, both those things, right here. Libby's familiar, surrounded. So, going to the other shore, I think you're saying that it seems to imply not really functioning well right here. But my understanding of going to the other shore really has to do with a deep understanding, not with actually vacating this place once and for all.

[13:47]

You know, you could also think of it as, and this is more prosaic, but you could also think of it as letting go of your conditioning. Making that Earth more, you know, crossing over to the other shore. There's nothing more that can let go of our conditioning, I would call it. ways or conditions that we can feel is what Trump was talking about, about being open. She's okay. She's okay. She's a little spacey. What's she? Not looking or the car not looking?

[15:47]

I think both of them are not looking. Yeah, I agree. So even if you're not gone beyond maybe the driver can be more still and tranquil. Let me read you what the bell says about the mantra. Then at the end of the sutra it talks about the mantra. So what is a mantra? Now we think of a mantra as a few words that you repeat over and over, but a mantra is like our activity. A true mantra is not just repeating some words over and over, but the way we actually move in our lives is our mantra. Our practice is our practice. The prajnaparamita mantra is the mantra of practice. In a narrow sense, it's how we enter the Zen door every morning and sit on the cushion, chant the sutra and bow and move. This way is actually mantra, the mantra which induces prajna.

[16:50]

When we offer incense, we invite prajna to permeate our activity, and we invite Buddha to join our practice. If you look at the rhythm of our life, no matter how rough or smooth our life is, there is always a rhythm, some kind of rhythm. The rhythm of our life is the mantra that we are always reciting. What kind of mantra do we want to recite? How can we recite this mantra which induces prajna to our activity day after day? He gave a series of lectures in 1994? 1996 or something like that. Anyway, five or six years ago, at least, at the Museum Center in North Carolina.

[18:00]

And if you go on to the... If you go into the website and hit the link, some link, you can get that. You can borrow this and you can copy it. You don't want to be defensive? What are you protecting yourself from? Less than non-dualistic.

[19:19]

I always have this conversation with Mel because I feel like he keeps shifting between a non-dualistic and a non-dualistic world. It gets tricky. But you're right. What do you need to be protected from? Non-dualistically, you can see it that way. Dualistically, you can see that what we need to be protected from is our our ignorance and our craziness. It causes our own suffering and the suffering of others as well. But it's not a protection. Like, I don't want to get in a convo and get a criminal on a convo. It's like a mantra, like a prayer, you know, you repeat something and then it's like... Well actually mantras have been... Mantras were used... They actually distinguish... Many mantras have been used as literal protection.

[20:45]

when you're in trouble, in a life-threatening situation. I had a teacher once, he's a Chinese Buddhist, and there's a mantra called the White Canopy Mantra. And he didn't say what the danger was, but his life was in danger. he chanted this, and all of a sudden, this huge white canopy appeared. And he got out of the situation. And this is a very, very sober, cool, analytic, scientific kind of guy. That's the way to say it. So oftentimes, mantras, or mostly mantras, have been used for that kind of purpose, as a literal protection from danger. And they point out that this mantra is not used like that. I mean, it's more protection from your ignorance, but it's not a specific protection from a specific being.

[21:53]

Very mindful of psalms. I mean, psalms come to mind. 20, 30 psalms. When people are in danger, if they're in the truth of the word, I'm not going to ask you. The faith is consoling. Really, thank you. I'm going to tell you a little truth. I'm going to tell you a little truth. I'm going to tell you a little truth. Yeah, it's a concentration. It's a method of concentration. TN. With the paper. It's a lot of money.

[22:54]

Yes, they freeze it. $12,000 falls to your mind at this count. They're the ones who like to talk to themselves. I often wonder why they call this the mantra, because we don't. I've never heard of anybody practicing, repeating it. You just say it once every time you say the sutra. But actually, Mel answers that question. He interprets the word mantra in a very expanded way. Well, looking back over this class, this four weeks, how would you say that you're... Do you see anything differently now than you did four weeks ago?

[24:20]

Well, yes. I think it's similar. I'm going to scratch to understand what you've got going. [...] We could import Rep. Rep can make it go out there. We could. Yeah, it's possible.

[25:31]

I think it's possible. All right. We'll think about it. Yeah. Part two. To me, the amount of power that there seems to be Sometimes I look at it and it doesn't mean anything. I get very frustrated. What is this? It doesn't make any sense. But then again, it does seem to be kind of... It causes one to have thoughts and become involved. It disturbs something. Sometimes I think it's an exhilarating conceit when there's no nose, no eye, no ear. It just kind of gets rid of all the stuff.

[26:34]

I found a group like this helpful because it brings me in contact with it, which I probably wouldn't do otherwise. Yeah, you know, in Zen, especially here, the emphasis is really on sitting. That's the characteristic of Zen, our core practice is just sitting. So what's good about this kind of class and this subject is that you have to think. So it's like, how do you do meditative thinking? How do you use your thinking? in a way that's consistent with meditative practice. And that's where it really comes to life. But it's really a class where you have to think. You have to use your thinking and you have to understand the terms that are being used. But then always knowing that that thinking is just thinking and that it only goes so far.

[27:42]

You have to actually experience. experience what they're talking about. It's not just a matter of thinking. Yeah. I think it's the other side. Because thinking and talking is so much about how we experience the world. So why not? It's just that if we only do that, then we miss the other side. That's right. All right, I don't want to deal with it. Whenever the list gets more than four or five, I get back on.

[29:03]

I think one reason why we sort of avoided it is because, you know, just to run through the list, brusquely, briskly, is kind of, doesn't give it the respect. that I think you would need. And so to really look at each one of these facets, this is on page 25 of the outline, at the top of the page to look at each one of these facets, you're going to have to really get into it. Otherwise, it's just sort of like reading through a list. And in this class, it seemed to me too detailed. Well, you could, you know, in a class, you could go through each one of these. If you win a contest, you get the first prize is two poppies and the second prize is three poppies.

[30:36]

I'm sure you can get a copy of it. I'll talk to you afterwards. I'll figure out the bureaucracy and everything. It was a good experience. It got me off my butt. And if you know how to go through it and really get stuck into it, I think it might be a fair bit. And if you understand it at one point and then forget about it, you can save a heart too.

[31:50]

But for me, I feel less talking about it than being here. There's plenty that can also come out of it. Well, this is actually another question. I forgot to bring it up. But what is your experience as you're actually, we have a few minutes left. What is your experience when you're actually chanting the Heart Sutra in the Zen dome? Sometimes I think about that. How are you doing that? Fine. Well, because everybody else is doing it. You could sing it. I mean, Thich Nhat Hanh specifically says it's not something to just sing. It's not something to just think. So what are you supposed to do? What attitude are you supposed to chant this with when you're chanting Lord of the Rings? Also, it's over pretty quick though.

[33:10]

It varies depending on the day. Depending on your needs. But David had a point. It's true. He had a point that he said not to go to that movie. Was it the last one? No, it would be nicer if it was. That's all I read. I think it grows on you and then you become a void. You kind of live with the void in the world. This was the way people learned by the early days. Because nothing was written down, this was a form of study. This recited sutra. So actually as you recite a sutra, We were learning from each other.

[34:11]

I don't know how they did it, actually. But a lot of these things that we find a bit foreign for actual old teaching tools you know, how there's so many numbered things in Buddhism, you know, 10-nesses, 4-nets, and 18-nesses, and it can be really intimidating, but actually, that was a way to help people remember, because everything was by memory. So, okay, there are 18 emptinesses, what are they? And you'd have to remember them. So, It's just how people learn. Now, people are going to find it.

[35:11]

That inflection, and the powers that be, is meant to be solved. You know, Korean Buddhists, I don't know how to chant the Heart Sutra, The Koreans, I remember, they vary melodically and vary evocatively. So, you know, so much of this is cultural. The way we do things comes from Japan, mostly. Chinese also is not monotone. Chinese has much more rising and singing quality to it. So a lot of this is just Japanese culture. We chant so many directly from the Japanese, in Japanese. And so it would carry the tenor of the English, of the Japanese into the English.

[36:13]

I saw something on television three hours in the morning, a documentary on Buddhism in Japan. I can't remember. It was not long ago. Oh, I know, it was one of those Globetrotters, or no, either the Trekkers, the Globetrekker BDS shows, I think. Oh, I know. Anyway, went into temples in Japan, and to my surprise, they were chanting Dai-Hin-Chi-De-Ra-Ni, almost, The way we, you know, we're very close. It's the way we do it. I mean, you know what I mean. They have slightly different accents. I mean, we have an American accent, but we're very similar in cadence and everything to that. So a lot of it's just cultural.

[37:14]

All the different Buddhist Tibetans are very different. You don't really have a good place to be. It's hard to be. You don't get to know everybody. [...] It's definitely a stripped down, it's like a, how do you express that word? You can go to the Japanese member, Koji Nani, and ask him to help you. He's a great guy. I like him. And a big chance. Ask him if he's involved in any of this. This is the thing where it doesn't amount to most of the population, but we have a lot of them.

[38:22]

That's where I saw it. That's where I saw it. Yeah. Thank you. It was good.

[39:11]

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