I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good evening, everyone. I can't remember ever doing this before, having an opportunity to give a lecture on a Saturday and then a follow-up class on a Thursday. And I was speaking with Alan and a few others about what's the difference between a lecture or a taste show on a Saturday and a class. And some of the thoughts were that a lecture is a presentation of one's understanding. using or not using textual references. And a class has text quite often as a basis and can be more interactive. But like lots of things at Berkley Zen Center, it's not always so. And we'll see how this evening goes. One idea I had this evening was I would present some material and it

[01:12]

discussion, not only just presenting questions or thoughts to me, but to each other, because it is a community of practitioners. My intention this evening is to follow up on what I presented on Saturday about the use and misuse of sexuality as a precept of practice and the use and misuse of intoxicants as a practice of the precepts. that. Shelly asked if I would recite some of the poetry of Ikkyu on Saturday that was a little more risque or baldy.

[02:19]

And I was reticent to do so for fear of making a mistake. It just didn't feel appropriate. I thought that was Linda. Oh, was it Linda? Well, in any case, I tried to send you the poems and it got bounced back to me as undeliverable. So I thought that was an interesting lesson from the universe. Maybe I should not have ... Yeah, I'll try Linda and see if her email receives it. Okay, so without any further ado. Charlie, Charlie, Charlie.

[03:29]

I'd like to make note of Charlie's comment on Saturday, which really brought it back right to first place in our practice, which is a reminder that our first noble truth is life is suffering. And as much as we try to deal with all the precepts as guidelines in our practice, and especially the two that I chose, which tend to be more or less up for me quite often. It does help to remind me that the Buddha was right in his teaching that life is suffering. I am constantly working to try to lessen my suffering and sometimes I even help others lessen theirs. There's another tension in our practice of expression, which is how much do we share of personal experience and how much do we share of textual printed matter, published works? I was talking to someone who was here on Saturday who really enjoyed my personal presentation of my stories and quandaries and my suffering.

[04:41]

Maybe she liked the dramas that I was putting forth But nevertheless, it felt good to be validated that way. And at the same time, it's always good to remember our ancestors, this lineage that we're practicing with. And so I wanted to start this evening reading some of Suzuki Roshi to bring it back to square one. This is a lecture that was given at Page Street about five months before he passed away. July 2nd of 71. And I'm not going to read the whole thing, I'm just going to read excerpts from it. And the title of the lecture is Real Precepts are Beyond Words. Zen precepts means understanding zazen. The first of the 16 precepts we observe is, how can I say it, the one reality which cannot be divided into three or 16.

[05:45]

It is a precept of one reality. You may call it emptiness or you may call it the absolute. That is the first precept we observe. All the precepts start from this precept. Without understanding this precept, our 16 precepts don't make any sense. It can be understood on the great scale of this universe. Just being yourself is a way we can observe the precepts. Whether your practice is good or bad, it doesn't matter. If you accept your practice as your own, then that practice includes everything. At that time, you have the precepts which include everything as the absolute being includes everything.

[06:46]

We say that something which includes everything is the absolute, but actually is more than that, is beyond our understanding. So for me, Suzuki Roshi here is touching on the precepts beyond words. And generally when we talk about the precepts, we're talking about the precepts with words. And we make the mistake on purpose and sometimes we make mistakes not on purpose. And our discussions ensue as a result of these questions that we raise and these arguments that we get into and points that we try to make. And it's really easy to forget this other side, that if you, in fact, are really comfortable with yourself, everything is okay just as it is. and it's beyond our ideas, which is not a license to go out and get intoxicated or have promiscuous sex or lie or steal or cheat or all the other precepts that we use as guidelines for our practice.

[08:04]

But it does bring up this other side, which I think we tend to forget, the place that we really can't know or touch. And I think Peter Overton brought up in his question to me on Saturday about how do you practice the precepts on the cushion? And your zazen is touching on this. Because most of our life, approximately 23 hours of the day, is off the cushion. So how do we return back to the cushion and the life of practice on the cushion? Well my response to Peter was that life on the cushion is this dead state which has a feeling of lifelessness and I think that's really where the hook was and where we had a little discussion about it and it's not a dead state where it's lifeless. If you in fact are feeling lifeless in that sort of mundane sense of the word then your Zazen really needs to be

[09:08]

amped up a bit, but the dead state that as I understand it and talking with Soji Roshi, the dead state is a place of stillness and acceptance of everything and what Suzuki Roshi was talking about. And then we get off the cushion, then we're practicing the living precepts and the activities and creating karma because through body, speech, and mind, off the cushion, our life is unfolding and we find ourselves in situations which are... well, in fact, they validate ourselves. We see ourself in each activity. So we can't really see ourself in the dharmakaya, which is certainly essence of life that is in fact this place of stillness, it logs in.

[10:11]

But coming off the cushion, and again I was kind of repeating some pieces that I brought up on Saturday, that these three bodies of Buddha that Suzuki Roshi talks about is a way that we can see ourselves in three aspects of ourselves, if you will. So the dharmakaya is the essence of life. And life doesn't exist without us. It's ineffable. and it's all pervasive. The nirmanakaya is each individual expression of each of us. Male and female, different colors, skins, ideas, accents, all the various permutations that make up us.

[11:20]

And the sambhogakaya is the expression or the interpenetration of this bag called Ross and this essence from which I come from, which we all come from. So I think that before we come to practice, we operate out of habit energy, or karmic energy, and we make mistakes. We have some successes. With regard to intoxicants and sexuality, we all can reflect on our own experiences, whether we're helping ourselves or others, or hurting ourselves or others. And then when we come to practice, we begin a life of vow where we return to the cushion and experience our true self.

[12:35]

And it's not like the Rodin's thinker in this way on the cushion and thinking, although we can certainly have those moments and we all do, including myself. But it's like this, being open and all accepting of ourself. As Suzuki Roshi says, when you completely accept yourself and you can't escape yourself, that's when you can sit zazen. So as long as we're like this, we'd have a difficult time sitting, literally and metaphorically. But if we sit up like this, then in fact, we can begin expressing ourselves truly. In this lecture, Dogen says, Suzuki Roshi quotes Dogen saying, if your everyday activity doesn't include everything, it is not Buddhist practice.

[13:52]

So we have to include everything in our life. And with our practice, with this inclusion, we can reflect on how are we doing? And what effect am I having on myself? I opened my talk on Saturday about if we were doing a traditional monastic practice, we would not have sex and we would not take an intoxicant. But unless we've taken those particular vows and taken on that practice as a way of life, we have discussions. We have our experiences and we share them with each other and hope that we can learn from each other. there is a list of awarenesses of a Bodhisattva which is part of the Mahayana tradition and the two that stick out for me that seem to address or seem to point to these precepts are having few desires and knowing how to be satisfied

[15:28]

Now what's a few desires for some people is different than a few desires for another person. And knowing how to be satisfied also is different. So we can't make a blanket statement about how many desires one can have. The harmony I feel with everyone When I sit Sazen, feels quite apparent because I'm sitting still as best I can and making a really big effort to let go of my thoughts and my conditioning. And as it says in our liturgy, clear and murky phrases are distinguished in the light.

[16:40]

And Bob, can you help me with the part about darkness? So all the branching streams in our life flow in the darkness without that discernment or distinguishing factor which brings forth our karmic conditioned mind and causes our suffering, causes my suffering. Once in a while, I get lucky.

[17:40]

I work in a very public place and I am full with lots of desires. Some of them are easily satisfied, like if I want to make a cappuccino, I can make one quite easily or have someone make it for me and drink it. My relationship with and my desires for women and friendships and all that whole world is a little bit more tricky. So my luckiness came today when I found out a particular woman's name that comes in every so often who's very attractive. So she ordered a large iced latte. And it's our custom, we ask for our customer's names that we type into our register and then we call out their name when the drink is done. So she's been coming in for a while, I never knew her name.

[18:45]

And it turns out her name is Mara, M-A-R-A. And Mara was the tempter of the Buddha when he sat on his seat trying to tempt him from his realization. So I kind of smiled to myself hearing that Mara was ordering her large ice latte. Now, in this particular case, I was not obsessing about this person. It was, in all honesty, just an observation of someone that I found attractive. And we find all sorts of people to varying degrees of attractiveness. But for me, this was like a great teaching in the workplace. there's someone down the street of similar quality and affection in my particular preferences whose name is Maya, M-A-Y-A, and that means illusion.

[19:46]

That was also Arkins back to our Indian ancestry. So I have an illusion and an attempt I'd like to read another passage of Suzuki Roshi, which some people commented on after my talk on Saturday. He's talking about the use of the Mikugyo, which is a drum that keeps the beat during our chanting. The boat follows a wave and drives a wave like the Mikugyo, follows a chanting and drives a chanting. If you just follow the chanting, the Mikugyo will get slower and slower still. Unless you listen, you will lose control. So you have to listen, and at the same time, you should lead.

[20:46]

You should drive the chanting. It's not just to follow the chanting, you should drive the chanting also. Following the chanting and driving the chanting, how do you do it? If you ask Uman how you do it, he may say, what are you thinking about? He may say, just sit. Well, the boat is us. in this case. And when we get off the cushion, we feel the waves of our life. We feel the waves of other people's lives and we flow with it, to stretch the metaphor a little further. But if we lose contact with the energy or life force in us, then the waves will actually crash against one another. There'll be different velocities of energy or of water meeting.

[21:47]

And that's not so harmonious. So when we learn to be a Fukudo, which Alan will be training on Saturday with those who show up for that, it's a great opportunity to learn how to drive the Mikugyo and drive the chanting and also follow the chanting. You really have to be present with that. Because if you aren't, it gets off quite quickly and everyone can hear it. and our impulses that naturally arise have driven us to extremes also, and we've caused harm to ourselves and to others. But hopefully with our practice and returning to that still place of Zazen, we'll be able to get in touch with that

[22:50]

Laurie asked a question on Saturday, as best I can remember, something to the effect of, why is it that so many male spiritual teachers have gotten in trouble with their students? And I still don't know the answer to that, but I was talking with someone about it, And their thought was, well, it's like a sex and power thing. And while there is like a heterosexual bias, it can certainly go for homosexuality also, but there's a desire for students often to seek out teachers or people in powerful positions because they want to be around that power. This person I was talking with was kind of laughing saying, look at these like big, fat, ugly guys with bulbous noses.

[24:07]

They're just kind of, they're not attractive in a classic sense, but they have some kind of power. And they often attract people who want to be around that. And it's kind of what people are looking for, which is not condonia, but it was the way he explained it to me. It just sounded, yeah, that's right. I remember feeling seduced once by a, um, a woman, at least my projection of being, being seduced. And it was both a, um, a wonderful feeling of feeling alive and connecting to this person. And also, um, not so healthy because it wasn't, it wasn't a consummated relationship.

[25:07]

It was legal, it was within the parameters of what we do as adults when we're not in committed relationships and all that. But nevertheless, it didn't feel connecting. And what I realized during this process with this person was that I could no longer blame them for discomfort that I felt. and that was really liberating. And at the same time, it was very sad because of my own desires toward this person, there was this unfulfillment, or an unfulfillment. And when I thought about the encouragement to sit upright and accept everything, I realized that that's a very different stance of accepting both the feeling and intoxication of desire and love and feeling alive in a sense and also the sadness too.

[26:18]

And prior to that, The physical sensation in my body and mind and in thinking about this particular situation I was in was more kind of a covered or protected feeling. And that was protecting my sense of self and not wanting to be used or manipulated and all that. I was speaking with Linda Hess after the talk on Saturday, and she had raised her hand, but we ran out of time, and she made a really good point, and I want to share that with you all, which was when I was talking about the pillars at Rinzobin, Suzuki Roshi's temple, that I asked, or someone asked what was inscribed on them, and he laughed and said, beyond these pillars, no women and no intoxicants and these other sort of things that were not allowed,

[27:29]

She said that this is sort of a societal conditioning which is misogynist and not good. It's not healthy. And this is something also that we have inherited. And I think we're making pretty good strides at bringing the balance back to fairness. But I didn't quite get it. And I'm glad that she brought that to my attention. It just didn't feel to me. It felt hypocritical because of what I spoke about, about the the sexuality and intoxicants that in fact were or had been taking place there over the years. But her point is well taken. I wanted to share that with you. A moment ago I spoke about

[28:36]

the awarenesses of a bodhisattva and having few desires and knowing how to be satisfied. And this is a Mahayana view of practice. Well, the other side is a quote from a Dhammapada which I'd like to recite to you, which is the Dhammapada, the oldest tradition, text from the old tradition of the roots of Buddhism. and it goes, to avoid all harm, to cultivate good, and to purify the mind, this is a teaching of the Buddhas. So that's another expression. And I think when we sit sadhana, and we have our mudra like so, we're holding both these sides The other night, we were visited by a bodhisattva.

[29:55]

I had never seen this person before. He apparently sat afternoon zazen and I came up to the zendo after zazen was over to attend to some zendo manager duties. And Alan had finished speaking with him. I didn't get the gist of it, but there was a pretty intense exchange. And as Alan had left, and as I was going into the Zendo, this guy, well, first of all, he was wearing his shoes, and he was on the deck of the Zendo. And there's a little sign that says, please remove your shoes when you're on the deck of the Zendo. I thought, well, this guy has got something going on here, and I don't need to remind him of this particular piece of protocol, so I'll let that slide. He said, who was that guy? He was talking about Alan. And my first impulse was to say, well, that's Alan, he's a tanto and all that.

[30:58]

And I thought, no, I don't think, I don't wanna, I have a little name tag at work, so people use my name sometimes inappropriately, so I don't wanna spread names. I didn't trust this guy's, in that sense, the word. So I said, Well, you were just talking with him. That's who he is. So I thought that's a. I thought that was a pretty good way to kind of not get intoxicated, if you will, in this thing with this fellow. Then he said that why are there so many Pentecostal Christians here in the Zendo? And I said, I don't know who's in the Zendo, but it always changes. Please come back and see who's there.

[32:01]

And then he said that he is creating a spiritual He's trying to cultivate a spiritual-ness in his life and they're destroying it there in the Zendo. And I said, well, maybe this isn't the right place for you. And all the while, when I was speaking with this fellow, I was looking at him and I was really trying to stay focused on my breathing and stay connected. Knowing that he could have something underneath his bundle of stuff that he was holding that would perhaps do me some physical harm, but I trusted the moment and Alan had a talk with him and it just seemed like somebody that needed some help actually is what it comes down to.

[33:11]

The Diamond Sutra says, dwell nowhere and bring forth that mind. And that's what we do in Zazen, we dwell nowhere. And then we attach to something and then we're definitely somewhere. I really love the image of the chant in our meal chant. It says, may we exist in muddy water with purity like a lotus.

[34:25]

Thus we bow to Buddha. So we're, excuse me, we're always connected to the muck. Always connected to the muck. Sometimes I get tired of being connected to the muck. But I'm always connected to the muck. I want to close with two experiences I had, one that I am using as an example of intoxication, and one as an example I'm using as sexuality.

[35:38]

And then we'll have a five-minute break or so and then have a discussion. I was recently given a gift of a hundred grams of tea from Japan and I was thankful to the person who presented it to me and I opened it and I looked at the leaves and when I looked at the leaves they reminded me of a lesser grade, a lesser grade tea that I'm quite familiar with that is perfectly serviceable, very tasty, mindfully prepared by hand and all that labor goes into it, but not a favorite of mine.

[36:45]

So if you will, I was filled with intoxication of my prejudice and my preferences. So I drew some fresh water from my water filter, put it in my water kettle, got it up to the temperature that sounded about right, poured a little tea into my little hoggy teapot, which I love so much, poured the water in, put the lid on, let it steep for a while, and then strained it into my little Bizen teacup, which I also love very much. I smelled it, smelled rather nice. And then I took a sip. And I was very intoxicated from that sipping of that tea.

[37:50]

Firstly, by the intense sweetness of it, which I've never tasted before. in that way. And then by the long lingering finish of that tea, which I also never tasted like that before. And I was deeply humbled and extremely appreciative of that tea. And I finished the cup ever so carefully and bowed in my heart to the person who gave it to me. And I'm very happy to say that they will never know what I was thinking from their kind, generous gift that I had this sort of attitude about it. So you never know what you're getting from someone.

[39:00]

It may be one of the greatest gifts that you've ever had. It reminded me when I took my job 19 years ago at Pete's and had tea really for the first time with guidance from someone who was my manager and talking about the qualities and the flavors. It was really eyeopening and palate opening experience. And I've drunk a lot of tea and coffee over the years, but the cup the other day was really something. The little thing about sexuality is more about, well, it's about sex. And it's about the perception of sex and sensuality in me, in my perception of myself and how I want other people to perceive me. My eyes are changing and I can't see up close as well as I used to.

[40:01]

And I don't want to wear bifocals. So I often put my glasses up like this, which looks kind of cool maybe. And I like the fuzziness of things because everything is out of focus except about from here is in focus. But it reminds me a little bit about the impressionist paintings that I spoke about on Saturday and how impression of things is there for people to appreciate, and that we complete the picture in our mind, whatever the artist is trying to convey. And that's actually what our life is about. We're constantly meeting things. We get an impression of something, and then we finish it in our mind. That's called the relationship we have with self and other. So I was at dinner with a friend, and I had my glasses up. And the person said, gee, Ross, I never noticed as bad So I thought, oh really?

[41:09]

But to myself, my heart, and this wasn't a date, it was a friend who I really liked, but it was not a romantic thing. But it hit me really like, really deeply that yeah, I have bags under my eyes. I'm getting older and that my eyeglass frames kind of hide those bags. And when they said that, I mentioned that this, the bags and manifestation of my aging, though they didn't comment on that, this is all what's going on in my head, I was kind of doing this, right? I was kind of shrinking. And I felt that and I realized that, and it's just like, okay, Ross, here's another practice opportunity. Get a little energy in your lower back and sit upright. and look them in the eye with their bags and wrinkles and say, you're right, you know, I'm getting old and these are bags under my eyes. And some people might be kind of sexy, I don't know.

[42:16]

So those are some thoughts that I've had for the past 50 years, and I think it's about time for our break, and Karen will ring the bell in about five minutes or so, and we'll return and have a discussion. Thank you. Well, hello again, and welcome to the discussion part of our evening. So, are there any thoughts that arose from Saturday or this evening or in between that people might want to share to help? Charlie? Well, I have a question about your last story about the sagging... Okay. Where's the sex part in that story? Where's the sex part? You didn't get the story about sex?

[43:33]

Okay, here it is. Here's the story about sex. I am of the opinion that we make choices of what we're going to wear, how we're going to do our hair, etc., if we have hair to do. I've been told from some people, it's about me. I want to look good or presentable or upright or make a particular statement. And while I can hold that as a valid response, my feeling is that it's about attracting and being attractive to other people. It's not just about me looking good in the mirror. So with my vanity and my desires for sensuality and expressions of sensuality and sexuality, I had, and from time to time it arises, a diminished feeling of my vitality and sensuality and ability to be attractive.

[44:50]

So I'm in the marketplace and I'm competing against no sagging eyelids, etc. Well, you know what they said about Albert Einstein? you very much. Well there's something about when I was in that group in New York to be ordained as a monk or priest, there was a liberating quality to that path that I was on, brief though it was because I felt that I was going to be out of the But it didn't feel right in my gut to follow through with that.

[45:57]

Yeah. So I spent about 15 bucks to get my few hairs cut every once in a while. And I kind of laugh to myself when I think about that. I'm paying to get these hairs cut. Why do I do that? But I have my vanity. Hi, Greg, yes. Something you said in the first part kind of stuck with me, about being tired of being connected to the moth. I was wondering how you think, if you think that feeling might be related to these precepts. I see it. What comes to mind is thinking about customers who I have resistance to wait on and to be open and friendly and all that.

[47:05]

I haven't had a deep, deep experience of interconnectedness of all beings, enough to sustain me to be completely open to. to people. So the people that I have resistance to are expressions of that muck. And I think that if I did have that deep, deep experience of interconnectedness, then I would, my response to them and my understanding of the precepts would be a lot better. How about you? And what it proved to me, and I guess this was what I think Charlie started to talk about at the end of this. To me, these two especially seem the most potent milieu where we deal with our desire and our suffering, our desire and our pain.

[48:15]

It's all about pain. And I think what often draws us to getting lost in these areas is our pain. And maybe that's why it's hard to talk about these precepts in a certain way. We've had this leitmotif where these precepts are hard to talk about because I don't want The other side of it is, for me, I was thinking about the sexuality preset today. And one reading of that that helps me is, I vow to take care of my romantic relationship.

[49:21]

And I was thinking about, as an adult, where a good portion of my wounds come from, that I still feel. and they're from, you know, maybe a majority of them are from that movie. Of not taking care of... Of romantic relationships. Yeah. So every time, you know, I vow all my ancient, twisted karma from beginningless greed, hate, and delusion are now a vow. It's not just a vowing. I've been divorced. It's not the most painful So thinking about that experience in terms of my vow, it's not just vowing to acknowledge all the mistakes I might have made or how I might have done things right, but it's also acknowledging my pain.

[50:23]

And the other thing that occurs to me about these precepts is that when we get lost in we muck up, we mess up the very faculty that we're trying to cultivate in practice, which is sobriety, or not objectifying mindfulness. And the last thing that occurs to me is, you know, I was thinking to my wounds about romantic relationships and how strong that is. And I was also thinking, you know, how many romantic, how many sexual encounters or relationships in my life did I enter into mindfully. It's very sobering to think about that. And I think it speaks to why these precepts are four and five or something.

[51:28]

They're potent. They're potent areas for dealing with my own suffering and my desire. And so when you said that, thinking about the muck, that's what referred to me. Yeah, well thanks for really illuminating a lot of points. One of the things I mentioned on Saturday was that these are the only two precepts where there's a reference to purity in the translation, in the sense of pure and impure and duality and non-duality. Um, let's see. I think Charlie has his hand up at the now. Um, I was, uh, I was here a couple of days ago when that, uh, when you stopped by the East book. Um, and, uh, um, I was here earlier, so I saw him hanging around before hand and sat with him. And then I actually saw you out of the corner of my eye speaking with him afterwards.

[52:33]

But, um, I'm wondering if you could, The reason I brought up this evening was it felt to me like something real. And it wasn't something from a book, reading about other people's experiences, which can be very inspiring and invigorating. There's a saying, what doesn't destroy you will support you or make you stronger. And I can imagine being in situations like that where my response would not have been so supportive of someone.

[53:38]

I get inspired hearing people's stories about how they deal with adverse situations or potentially confrontational situations and can turn it. And that's pretty much why I shared it. And also that it happened right here in our temple. and we have a welcoming statement, you know, on the bulletin board, and we try to practice as open as we can, and there's all these stories about this drunk that came into the Buddha's camp, and he wanted to be ordained, and the Buddha said, okay, and he shaved his head, and the guy, the next morning, woke up and left, and the other monks were saying, why did you ordain him? Could you tell that he was drunk? And he wasn't sincere about his practice, and the Buddha said, well, he wanted to be ordained, I ordained him and that in his lifetime, this is what is offered. So we don't know what that guy's intention was.

[54:47]

I mean, I would not invite him into my apartment to hang out, but it's like, how do we bring that old teaching of the Buddha now? How do we do that now? And yeah, so that's, That's why. And then Alan and I had a nice chat about, you know, the circumstances around that, because Alan had a longer talk with him and other people were involved there too. And he showed up the next morning and Laurie handed him a suture book gently and he just kind of did service with us. I mean, it's kind of a part of the piece of our practice. about what Greg was saying and also. just about pain, nor is life suffering.

[56:33]

Attachment, clinging to life is suffering, I think. And these acts of sexuality, acts of intoxication, are about also merging. They're also about liberation. And so, you know, in conventional reading, theoretically, is less hazardous karma than breaking precepts of anger and violence. And my sense of why is because when you have that large experience of reality, you're right out there on the edge.

[57:40]

You've been willing to go someplace. And when you're willing to go someplace, you take the risk. And so, you know, people, if they live really large, then they have If you've been willing to really fall into reality, then you might be willing to fall anywhere. You might have habituated yourself or trained yourself to take that risk. I just wonder about that. I'm just putting that out. It doesn't necessarily, you don't appreciate them for the mistakes that they make.

[59:01]

You learn what you learn and you set aside the other. But just in our human capacity for just venturing forth, these are the habits I think that we raise. Yeah, we have to separate out the wheat from the chaff from our teachers. Sometimes, I think it's natural to think that we're going to learn certain things from our teachers, like their attributes, the things that we admire. But I think we also learn what not to do, perhaps. What's right for one person is not necessarily right for another. And also, the times change. Back in the 60s, when these teachers and our teachers were kind of coming into the fold of practice, it was a very different time than now. And we're kind of looking at it It doesn't excuse what they did, but it isn't so easy. Thank you for bringing up that other side. Sue. I'm sorry.

[60:04]

Thank you. Yeah. I wonder if you could say a little bit actually about actual why. Yeah, how you decide how much to drink so that it's not intoxicating. And other people too, how other people feel since alcohol is sort of socially acceptable. That's a good question. We all do some of it, a lot of it. Well, first off, I am not a connoisseur. I'm not a connoisseur of coffee or tea, but I happen to work in a coffee and tea shop and people think I am because I've been there for a long time. But anyway, thank you for the appellation.

[61:08]

But I do like wine. I do like coffee. I do like tea. I do like motorcycles. I do like nice watches. Specifically to your question, what came to mind when you were talking was when do we start zazen and when we give zazen instruction it's not just when the bell rings but we start preparing as Soji Roshi says we start preparing for zazen when we think about coming to the zendo we go through the gate and we take on a particular bearing and countenance and we walk quietly and mindfully and then we approach the zendo etc. say the first sip of a glass of wine, for myself I think, well, when did I feel the effects of that? For me, I felt the effects of it before it touched my lips. When I was thinking about purchasing a particular bottle of wine from a particular event or from a particular growing area in the world and et cetera, et cetera.

[62:15]

So that's going sort of backwards, sort of like the beginningless part of where the influences are that brings one to choosing to drink a glass of wine versus a glass of water or a cup of tea. And then going in the other direction is how much is too much intoxication? And that seems to vary according to my state of mind. and body and what's going on with me. Looking at the alcoholic content on the label, there isn't much variation there. So I think, well, why is this affecting me more today than at dinner or with this friend that I happen to be sharing a bottle with? if I am, uh, well, when I had a license and I was driving a car and all that, of course that would be, um, a, uh, it was incumbent upon me to monitor my, uh, intake.

[63:28]

So, um, And as a child or a young adult drinking to oblivion and as a lot of high school kids do, and sometimes older, obviously those are extremes where one is not worrying about where the boundaries are. So for myself, if I choose to drink some wine or do something else that appears to be less intoxicating, say go to a movie or go out to dinner at a nice restaurant, is often a response to wanting some enjoyment in my life, something that I appreciate. And the culture and refinement that comes around, say for instance, that lifestyle.

[64:36]

because I do like nice things and being around that. And there have been times in my life when I've been very sad or upset and say smoking pot in college when I was doing that, that was a response to wanted to cover up my pain and wanted to sort of join in with the group of people who seem to be happy when in fact they weren't. They were just as miserable as me. Covering up their pain. Yeah. So when I spoke on Saturday, While it may have appeared to sort of be avoiding sort of classic examples of intoxication or sexuality, I didn't mean it as such, and I apologize.

[65:39]

And this also is not a 12-step presentation where I'm talking about my particular addictions and proclivities. It's more of, well, what is using an intoxicant? And what is misusing an intoxicant? Because I reside here and I've been sitting here for a while, there's a visibility factor. Because of that, I think I get not an imbalanced or undue amount of attention to my lifestyle, be it, gosh, I can't believe you drove a motorcycle or the various other things that people have commented on about my life. but actually I think everyone in this room has a lifestyle that maybe give one pause to question and wonder well is that how is that life how is our is our life you know consistent with the practice that Buddha and Suzuki Roshi and Mel have brought to us

[67:05]

Generally speaking, my, um, up to maybe three years or so ago, um, my temperament and being was rather, um, I wouldn't say quiet, but I would say it was, um, maybe somewhat reserved. And it wasn't a specific incident that took place, but it was kind of a gradual thing of coming out the other side and wanting to express myself more. And we all had these times where we kind of step back and come forward and I think 10 years ago when I was given the opportunity to be shusa was a really kind of first great opportunity to come forward and be able to share my experiences and understanding with people.

[68:30]

But I I still have retained an idea or a fantasy about what a Zen teacher is. When I saw my first Zen teacher, picture of him smoking a cigar in a magazine, it kind of gave me pause and humbled me in my arrogance and ideas about what I thought a Zen teacher was supposed to be. Now, I had no desire to smoke a cigar. I admire their handwork and all the work that goes into them, but beyond that, it's no. And as I was saying on Saturday about those shoes that I became intoxicated with, that I wasn't going to buy, thinking about the animals that were utilized to make those shoes, it was kind of a signpost for not the only reason why I would not wear them, but a reason.

[70:01]

And finally, I think that my enjoyment of the sense pleasures, if you will, has enabled me to really accept myself for who I am. with my pain and my suffering that Greg was alluding to and that we all have. In reading the older texts in our tradition, I think it's pretty safe to say that it would be easy to

[71:31]

advocate for that practice in that life. And it's a little more tricky reading Ikkyu and some of the characters in our practice and how they manifested in the world and express their understanding. a friend of mine once said, I am going to tell people how you really are. I want to show people how you really are. And they were upset with me at the time. And I wasn't so taken aback by it, but I was, I was a little surprised, but I knew that they were upset and they, um, felt that I had a particular persona that I was hiding from other people.

[72:40]

But, um, You know, we all have things that we hide all, you know, old wounds and things. And, um, as Soji Roshi said to me once, uh, and others, I'm sure it's good not to talk about everything about yourself. It's good to kind of keep some things close. And, um, in our community as we've tried to be as transparent as possible and rewriting the ethics guidelines and practicing. I think we've become more apparent, more transparent. And that is apparent. We have a few minutes left.

[73:47]

I apologize for taking so much time in the discussion. It became a monologue of sorts, but hopefully it was helpful to some people. Yes, Elizabeth? You know Linda, Linda Hasson's a scholar. Her colleague is, used to be Bernard Ford, And it's probably Minerva that taught her about those films. So our ancestors. Yeah, there we go. I'm not so sure that Zubirashi is square one. For our practice and for us. It's definitely a piece of this temple, right? Anyway. In the monastery, he's writing three books on gender and sexuality.

[74:48]

The first one is on male gender and sexuality, and Buddhism. And not from all Buddhism, but particularly Zen Buddhism. So, if you have any inclinations or some nice, sweet beginnings, and you're growing up to chase a great one, Look at those constellations. In the monasteries, they have those things and it's a lot bigger story than what we heard tonight for half a second. And the male sexuality, there's a lot of cults around sexuality in Japan with ancestors. There's a lot of homosexuality in these temples. then also have the precepts. Sure. And I think, so as we think about, well, we're lay practitioners and that's why we have to think about these things and say about these things.

[75:56]

It's not really... We have a history to dwell upon from the Lama's place and from lay people. And I think, seriously, And the rivers we bring that into our temple could be really helpful for us to make our prostrations more authentic. And perhaps less delusions of equality. Yeah. Thank you for that. Well, it's about nine o'clock and I want to end on square one, which maybe is not Suzuki Roshi, but it's what Charlie said, reminding us that life is suffering.

[77:03]

whatever translation you want to use of Duca. And when Laurie made a reference to eating animals, I was thinking about my father's livelihood as a veterinarian, and that my bread and butter, so to speak, was based on his livelihood. And while he's always been, in my presence, a very kind, gentle man with people

[77:37]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ