I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good evening. A little bit of business. With regard to the class and the fee for the class, Laurie Sanoki, our office manager, kindly and humbly ask for people to pay for class. If there's any question about the amount and scholarships are available, so please check with her and try to pay before the end of the series so she won't have to track you down. Because we have ways. Before I begin my section of the Fukan Zazengi for presentation and discussion, are there any questions that remain from last week's really nice offering from Richard that people would like to ask or comment on and talk about?

[01:12]

Okay. I've got some material here to present and I encourage everyone to raise their hands and ask questions or comments so we can have a dialogue during the course of the evening. We'll go to nine o'clock and Biko will sound the bell around 8.15 or so, which is about halfway through for a little break. We'll start in just a moment by reciting the Fukan Zazengi. Fukan Zazen Gi, the universal promotion of the principles of Zazen of Zen Master Dogen.

[03:04]

The way is basically perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent upon a practice and realization? The Dharma vehicle is free and untrammeled. What need is there for concentrated effort? Indeed, the whole body is far beyond the world's dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? It is never apart from one, right where one is. What is the use of going off here and there to practice? And yet, if there is the slightest discrepancy, the way as distant as heaven from earth. If the least dislike arises, the mind is lost in confusion. Suppose one gains pride of understanding and inflates one's own enlightenment, glimpsing the victim that runs through all things, attaining the way and clarifying the mind, raising an aspiration to escalate to the very sky. One is making their initial, partial excursions without the frontiers, but is still somewhat deficient in the vital way of total emancipation.

[04:11]

Need I mention the Buddha, who was possessed of inborn knowledge? The influence of his six years of upright sitting is noticeable still. or Bodhidharma's transmission of the mind seal. The fame of his nine years of wall sitting is celebrated to this day. Since this was the case with the saints of old, how can people of today fence with negotiation of the way? You should therefore cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing words and following after speech, and learn the backward step that turns your light inward to illuminate self. body and mind themselves will drop away and your original face will be manifested. If you want to attain the suchness, you should practice suchness without delay. For Sanzen, a quiet room is suitable. Eat and drink moderately. Cast aside all involvements and cease all affairs. Do not think good or bad.

[05:13]

Do not administer pros and cons. Cease all the movements of the conscious mind, engaging of all thoughts and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha. Sanzen has nothing whatever to do with sitting or lying down. At the site of your regular sitting, spread out a thick matting and place a cushion above it. Sit either in the full lotus or the half lotus position. In the full lotus position, you first place your right foot on your left thigh and your left foot on your right thigh. In the half lotus, you simply place your left foot against your right thigh. You should have your robes and belt loosely bound and arranged in order. Then place your right hand on your left leg and your left palm facing upwards on your right palm, thumb tips touching. Thus sit upright in correct bodily posture. neither inclining to the left nor the right, neither leaning forward nor backward.

[06:14]

Be sure your ears aren't inclined with your shoulders and your nose in line with your navel. Place your tongue against the roof of your mouth, with teeth and lips both shut. Your eyes should always remain open and you should breathe gently through your nose. Once you have adjusted your posture, take a deep breath Inhale and exhale. Rock your body right and left and settle into the steady and mobile sitting position. Think of thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. This is itself is the essential art of Zazen. This is simply the Dharmagata of repose and bliss. The practice realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is a manifestation of ultimate reality. Traps and snares can never reach it. Once its heart is grasped, you are like the dragon entering the water, like the tiger entering the mountains.

[07:17]

For you know that the right dharma is manifesting itself and that from the first dullness and distractions are struck aside. or standing, have all depended entirely on the strength of thought. In addition to bringing about an enlightenment and opportunity provided by a finger, a hammer, a needle, or a hammer, an infecting imputation, indeed a constant, a physics, a static, or a shadow, cannot be fully understood by discernible thinking. Indeed, it cannot be fully known by the practicing Practice realization is naturally undefiled.

[08:30]

Going forward in practice is a matter of everydayness. In general, this world and other worlds as well, both in India and China, equally hold the Buddha seal and overall prevails the character of this school, which is simply devotion to sitting, total engagement in a mobile sitting. Although it is said that there are as many minds as there are persons, Still they all negotiate their way solely in Zazen. Why leave behind the seat that exists in your home and go aimlessly off to the dusty realms of other lands? If you make one misstep, you go astray from the way directly before you. You have gained the pivotal opportunity of human form. Do not use your time in vain. You are maintaining the essential working of the Buddha way.

[09:32]

Who would take wasteful delight in the spark from the Flintstone? Besides, form and substance are like the dew on the grass, destiny like the dart of lightning. emptied in an instant, vanished in a flash. Please, honored followers of Zen, long accustomed to groping for the elephant, do not be suspicious of the true dragon. Devote your energies to a way that directly indicates the absolute. Revere the person of complete attainment who is beyond all human agency. Gain accord with the enlightenment of the Buddhas. Succeed to the legitimate lineage of the ancestors, samadhi. Constantly perform in such a manner and you are assured of being a person such as they. Your treasure store will open up itself and you will use it at will. Amen. I'm going to take up where Richard left off last week, which is from the third paragraph, need I mention the Buddha, and I will end this evening with Man thinking this in itself is the essential art of Zazen.

[10:55]

In reading the full piece, I was really struck by all of the references to the early literature that we recite in our liturgy, the Hokyo Zamai and the Sandokai and other teachings. It's all condensed right here. teaches us to or encourages us to give talks here in the Zendo, he often says bring a source or a reference for not only encouragement but some sense of authority that you're not just making this up. There's of course your own experience which I'm sharing with you all tonight and then also using something that is

[12:04]

inspirational to you and hopefully will be to other people and from known sources. And it's helpful, so oftentimes people will bring Zen Mind Beginners Mind up here and we'll quote from Suzuki Roshi and use that as a springboard to other points of a topic. So here, while I'm sure Dogen had inspiration from other people sitting, he quotes some very important people in our lineage right from the get-go. Need I mention the Buddha, who is possessed of inborn knowledge? The influence of his six years of upright sitting is noticeable still. Or Bodhidharma's transmission of the mind seal. The fame of his nine years of wall sitting is celebrated to this day. Since this was the case with the saints of old, how can people of today dispense with negotiation of the way? So right from the beginning he makes reference to the founder of our tradition and the effort that Shakyamuni Buddha made sitting under the tree for six years and having his realization and the effects of that that are still felt to this day 2,500 years later.

[13:20]

We're doing the same thing. We're sitting upright. We're not under a tree, but we're sitting under the roof here made from trees. the times are different but the tradition in fact is the same. Peter Overton spoke last week and he made a reference to the three wisdoms and the three wisdoms are the wisdom of hearing, the wisdom of reflection, and the wisdom of embodiment. And I wanted to use that teaching that he brought up to talk a little bit about this set of paragraphs. And it can be applied to all the things that we do, not just the study of Dharma. And that's really how we'll see how our practice rate, so to speak, outside the gate. Can we actually use the wisdom of hearing out in the world, or the wisdom of reflection, or the wisdom of embodiment?

[14:26]

So the wisdom of hearing is just hearing, just listening to the words of the Dogen Zenji, in this case, just listening to the rain outside, sitting still, and quiet and taking that in without any kind of comment whatsoever just a simple wisdom of hearing and we'll also um Think about the wisdom of just listening to Dogen's words without commenting on them and just letting those words come in into our body. The wisdom of reflection is a little bit deeper. That's actually using our mind and reflecting on what we've heard, how that affects us. Reflecting on someone sitting under a tree for nine years, six years, facing a wall for nine years.

[15:39]

Or reflecting on you and me sitting in this room for an hour. What's that feel like? And what's the wisdom of that? Is it any different than Bodhidharma's staring at a wall? And finally, there's the wisdom of embodiment, which in a sense is a synthesis of that. It's a synthesis of our practice, where we've heard so many lectures on Saturday and classes, and we've read so many books, we've talked to our Dharma friends, reflected on thoughts. And how are we embodying that? How is our practice? That's the question. Who am I and how am I practicing? Am I getting anywhere with this practice? So when Dogen makes a reference to the saints of old, how can people of today, which is 1228 or so AD, dispense with negotiation of the way?

[16:49]

It's like, how can we think of any other way of practicing but what these men did, what these people did? to reveal their true nature to themselves and to all beings. Are there any questions so far? Or thoughts? Yes. I have to say, you said, am I getting anywhere? And that sort of was like a fingernail on the blackboard. Because it's not an intentional, an intention to go somewhere. Practice. Practice. That was my response to that.

[17:50]

I'll get to that at the very end, about thinking non-thinking. But for now, what I would say to that is, it's okay to want to get somewhere. And I think we're all here with some sense of, I want to get something out of this practice. But if it becomes the fixed idea that I have to get something, then we're not going to get anywhere with that. So for me, what is a good reminder and helps me stay oriented to practice and trying to not have a gaining idea about practice is to sit with full attention and intention and realize that while the literature says and the teachers say there's nothing to get, There's a great effort that's being made, and that's a lot different than just lounging around and not doing anything.

[19:00]

So it's a really very slippery slope of wanting to get something, making an intention to do something, and then actually realizing that there's nothing to get once one's realized that. We say that desires are inexhaustible, I vow to put an end to them, but we have a desire to wake up, and that's going to get somewhere, to get something. So, if you could hold that thought and the nails on the blackboard for a while, hopefully it's not too distracting. I hope it becomes more clear later on at the end of this passage. You should therefore cease from practice based on intellectual understanding. Which is about getting somewhere, right? Pursuing words and following after speech and learn the backwards step that turns your light inward to illuminate yourself Body and mind are themselves body and mind of themselves will drop away and your original face will be manifest If you want to attain suchness you should practice suchness without delay There are many meditation practices that

[20:28]

have developed in this world over the centuries and many of them are based on some kind of object, a meditation object, and in Zen we have objectless or objectless meditation practice. And while the distinction in in our school, the Soto school of Zen, which is Dogen's school, is Shikantaza, just sitting, and in our practice here we follow the breath and posture and maintain awareness of that, and in Rinzai Zen there is a practice of koan study and of course both these practices intermingle and this isn't purely just sitting here because we have the koan of what is it, what is my life, people practice koans they also are just sitting so these things intermingle when we sit in zazen there is an object of awareness of breath and posture and in pure sitting or shikantaza

[21:52]

When we sit, we maintain an awareness of that. And at some point, what happens is body and mind drop away. And it may be just for an instant. It may be for many instances. It doesn't matter so much of the duration because what we're working on here is embodying the practice of just this moment after moment. And what takes place in this objectless meditation is that there's this object of Ross looking out at the world, sitting, trying to maintain a particular posture and awareness of breath, and sitting day after day, moment after moment. And a permeability takes place, and the barrier between self and other starts dropping away or getting a little fuzzy or murky. This addresses somewhat I think to your question of there's this intention to sit upright and to maintain stillness which is a desire, which is a gaining idea if you will, I want to sit still and in our practice what we try to do and what we're encouraged by Sojin and others is to not beat

[23:13]

And in the sitting practice of maintaining uprightness and objectifying self and other and being here on the tan and all that, with stillness and especially with long periods of sitting, things start dropping away and we start merging with the universe. We start merging with our environment. and these feelings of intimacy or connectedness or more appropriately interconnectedness are seen by us for some little glimpse of a moment or longer and these are ways to that are signposts that we're getting somewhere, that actually something is happening in our practice. Now, if we attach to getting somewhere and something is happening in our practice, then it gets in the way of our practice.

[24:19]

So how can we maintain an awareness of practice and the points in practice that we're encouraged to do, giving ourselves Zazen instruction while we sit and not get caught in this gaining idea? Norman Fisher gave a class here some years ago and he made a reference to enlightenment and the way he described it was that enlightenment is not here in front and we're striving for it in our practice here. What enlightenment is, is this thing that's kind of on the periphery or in our peripheral vision we have some sense of it. that there is something there but it's not our intention or focus to go for it. So we sit upright and there is this awareness on some level that there is more going on than what we think is going on and at the same time there's nothing else going on other than what's going on.

[25:24]

And depending on our particular dispense with this gaining idea and just sit just for the joy of sitting upright and the feeling that arises from that and the embodiment that we feel and the relations that we cultivate through this practice or we'll get caught by gaining ideas and getting frustrated and all that sort of discouragement stuff that comes up and I think if we practice long enough we'll feel and experience both those extremes we hit these plateaus and things are going great or things are not going so great and how do we persevere? How do we carry on? How do we continue to dispense the negotiation of the way? Mark? Yeah, the silence of the practice is I wonder if you could just, even when Dogen says don't follow ways that follow words or pursue speech, I still can't help hearing him using speech to tell us not to use speech.

[26:45]

Can you comment on that? I think what he's talking about is the attachment to speech, that there are a lot of people that read books and they develop theories about reality and ideas and such and they share them with people and it's very inspiring and exciting and all that, and it's very easy to get attached to these ideas. And I think what he's encouraging the people listening to him, which are primarily monks in a zendo setting, are to not get too attached to those words. And as Suzuki Roshi says, we make a mistake on purpose by talking about practice and explaining it. It's pretty difficult not to talk about it, to just sit. And I think it's easy for us, it's easy for me, certainly, to just drift off without either the words in my mind saying, Ross, get back on the cushion, or someone coming around with a posture adjustment, physical, or saying something, hey, wake up, or something like that.

[27:52]

So how can we hear something and let it go without attaching to it? And that also gets back to the non-thinking, which I'll be talking about a little later. We're thinking, but we're not attached to thoughts. So thoughts arise and they pass away. Words arise and they pass away. Words arise and they don't pass away, we've got a problem. Yet we repeat certain poems and literature and Dogen's words. Yeah, we do. We do. And they may fill us up. Kapparoshi said the best book on Buddhism is the one that compels you to put it down and start sitting. And some people don't read so much. And Mel's encouragement to people is, if they don't read so much, to actually get them some books to read, to encourage them. And people who read too much, maybe you should put the books down and sit some more. So depending on individual tendencies, we have to kind of see what works for us and trust our teacher or Dharma friend in that same kind of encouragement or direction.

[28:58]

Yes. In this text, reference to a seal, a mind seal, which I don't altogether understand. You're talking about an unsealing of the mind. Can you talk about the meaning of the mind seal? I don't know the literal meaning of that. My hunch is that unsealing the mind or opening the mind and being open is one thing. It's not like sealing an envelope. For me, when I see a seal, it's a very powerful image or a stamp, that kind of seal. That's how I hear it. So the mind seal or dharma seal, it's a, everything that goes right into that, it's like when the king used to seal the edict, it was like the word. So the mind seal, the dharma seal has this really strong image of everything just comes together and boom, right there on the paper.

[30:08]

It's also authentication. Yeah, authentication, right. Those are just my ideas. Yeah, I was just about to go into that. Thank you. I'd first like to read case 28 from the Mumon Con, which is sort of just... This is a story about Ryotan and Tokusan. And Tokusan was a Zen student and a very well-read and scholar monk on the Diamond Sutra. And he was stumped by a woman selling mind refreshers on the roadside.

[31:09]

And he wound up burning all of his commentaries on the Diamond Sutra. And she directed him to the man who was going to be his teacher, Ryotan. So Tokusan was with Ryotan in the room, and they were having a dialogue. And Ryotan said, the night is late. Why don't you go to bed? Tokasan thanked him, made his vows, and raised a door curtain and left. Seeing how dark the night was, he turned back and said, it's pitch black outside. Ryotan lit a lantern and handed it to Tokasan. Just as Tokasan reached for it, Ryotan blew it out. At that, Tokasan came to sudden realization and made a deep bow." So there's a physical act of light and then dark. And something happens when you flip a light on or cut the lights off.

[32:11]

And for me, this koan is a metaphor for taking away all of that study and all the words and things that Dogen was talking about earlier. By blowing out the light, Togesan had to rely on himself. He couldn't look out into the world and the studies and all that, not to say they're not worthwhile, but I think he was relying too much on his studies and his awareness and his repartees with other Dharma students. So by blowing the light out, he had to turn the light inward and reflect inward on himself. and, in fact, to check in on his embodiment of the practice. So this is a koan that illuminates, if you will, that phenomenon. Now the backward step in turning your light inward to illuminate yourself, Dogen is writing in the 13th century in Japan.

[33:16]

While we quote him a lot, actually the reference goes back earlier to China where he had gone to study. These stories are just kind of kicking around and probably 500,000 years from now there'll be stories about Suzuki Roshi and Mao and whatever that are going to be kicking around. But in Dogen's time, they were kicking around stories, sharing stories of the great masters in Tang and Sung China. The spiritual grandfather of Dogen Zenji is a man named Hongzhi, and this is a really great book called Cultivating the Empty Field, which is a collection of teachings that he is purported to have given and were written down. And while he's not in the direct lineage of Dogen Zenji, he was the abbot of the same temple that Dogen went to in China and received Dharma transmission. Hongzhi is in the 11th century in China, and even before him, Segito in China, who's like 8th century China, and we recite his poem, the Sandokai, says, turn around the light to shine within and then just return.

[34:57]

So this is, I'm sure he wrote more, but this is all that was quoted in the commentary here in this book. So it's the same idea of just turning the light inward. Hong Xiu says, take the backward step and directly reach the middle of the circle from where light issues forth and elsewhere to turn within and drop off everything completely and realization will occur. The backward step of turning the light to shine within, directing one's attention to observe closely one's own awareness, is a basic Zen meditation technique. And prior to Dogen and Hongxue, and after Sekito, right in the middle there, there's a story about non-thinking, which I will read now and I'll return to a little later after the break.

[36:03]

Dogen elucidates this technique of reflecting back, which he refers to as the essential art of Zazen in an essay, which he quotes a dialogue with Yao Shan, who was a direct successor of Sekito, and the teacher of Dong Shan's teacher. And Dong Shan is the teacher that the Soto school is named after. So it's all in the family. A monk asked Yaoshan what he thought about when he was meditating. Yaoshan said that he thought of that which doesn't think. The monk asked how he did that, and Yaoshan said, it's beyond thinking. This is a little fasco called The Backward Step in the Upright Cauldron of Hongxue.

[37:36]

With the depths clear, utterly silent, thoroughly illuminate the source, empty and spirited, vast and bright. Even though you have lucidly scrutinized your image and no shadow or echo meets it, searching throughout, you see that you still have distinguished between the merits of a hundred undertakings. That's called gaining idea. Then you must take the backward step and directly reach the middle of the circle from where light issues forth. This is a source, of course. And it's seen in the moon. Outstanding and independent still you must abandon pretexts for merit. Carefully discern that naming engenders beings and that these rise and fall with intricacy. In other words, we make mistakes on purpose by talking about all this. When you can share yourself, then you may manage affairs and you have the pure seal that stamps the 10,000 forms.

[38:44]

Traveling the world, meeting conditions, and self-joyfully enters Samadhi in the delusions and accepts its function, which is to empty out the self so as not to be full of itself. The empty valley receives the clouds. The cold stream cleanses the moon. Not departing and not remaining, far beyond all the changes you can give teachings without attainment or expectation. Everything everywhere comes back to the olden ground. Not a hair has been shifted, bent, or raised up. Despite a hundred uglinesses or a thousand stupidities, the upright cauldron is naturally beneficent. Zhou Xu answers, wash out your bowl and drink your tea. Do not require making arrangements from the beginning. They have always been perfectly apparent. Thoroughly observing each thing with the whole eye is a patchwork monk's spontaneous conduct.

[39:50]

In Chinese alchemy, the cauldron is a vessel that's used to blend and grind and take in all the various influences to create something new, something benevolent to the practitioner or to another. So we sit upright, you know a cauldron has these little legs there and typically there's three, not always, but three and just like the incense bowls there's three legs there and just like our butt and two knees this is a cauldron. We're the upright cauldron in fact sitting and stewing and turning something alchemically in our being and hopefully when we pour ourselves out into the universe something beneficial comes from that work that we've done. And there's a reference to that seal, Naomi, in here.

[40:58]

You have the pure seal that stamps the 10,000 forms. That seal is like the condensation or the distillation of our life in practice. And we go out and then we relate, we interact, we touch the 10,000 forms, which are our life. Could be. And on that note, we'll take a five-minute break. During the break, Anne and I were talking a bit about the history of this tradition in China and the inspiration for Dogen to write what he did when he came back from China and wondering, well, what will happen 500 years from now? And I was thinking about Mel meeting Suzuki Roshi and feeling that he had met someone that he wanted to be with and practice with and carry on this tradition.

[42:09]

So the inspiration is the same. And though 700, 800 years separate these two teachers, the theme is the same, just to carry on. And then prior to Dogen, you know, Shakyamuni Buddha, assuming the posture and carrying on this tradition. So something persists through all of this. A little more about the backward step. And none of these ideas are original. You can do the research and find yet other sources or references to it. But if the teaching is true, it transcends dimension and time and place and culture. Dogen originally studied Tendai Buddhism on Mount Hiei outside of Kyoto.

[43:11]

And Tendai Buddhism is a syncretic practice where they blended a number of different Buddhist teachings. And this is what the Tendai Buddhists have to say. This technique is also part of the battery of meditation practices of the Tendai Buddhism. For example, one meditation manual says, since we know observations come from the mind or from analyzing objects, this is not merging with the fundamental source. So one should turn back to observe the observing mind. This type of introspection is also found in the technical literature of the Pure Land School in China. outwardly not clinging to objects, inwardly not dwelling in concentration. Turn the light around and observe once. Inside and outside are both quiescent. After that, subtly invoke the name of Amitabha Buddha three to five times.

[44:16]

Turn the light around and introspect. Is it said that seeing nature one realizes Buddhahood? Ultimately, what is my inherent Amitabha Buddha? So that sounds like Zen. So we can't get too highfalutin and say Zen is the way, and these Pure Land Buddhists who are praying to be reborn into Pure Land and looking at Amitabha Buddha as some kind of savior, or the Tendai Buddhists who are using a syncretic practice as something less than the Zen school. So they're all kind of borrowing from each other and seeing what works. I may have mispronounced it, it's the blending, a synthesis. And when Dogen says that body and mind of themselves will drop away and your original face will be manifest,

[45:22]

This is what happened to him at Mt. Tien Tong that he was sitting Zazen and the monk next to him was dozing and the teacher was making his rounds kind of like what Mel does in the morning in the Jindo. And he took his slipper and he hit the dozing monk saying that, you know, what are you doing wasting your time here? You know, sit harder. And Dogen had this awakening experience of body and mind dropping away. So even though it's a sort of a casual sort of line within this piece of writing, it was a significant moment in his experience that transformed him and has given us this teaching today. The next two paragraphs talk about zazen, so I'll read them. It'll sound very familiar and maybe not too juicy, but hopefully we'll have a little dialogue or discussion about the particulars of the posture and breathing.

[46:34]

For Sanzen, which is Zazen, a quiet room is suitable. Eat and drink moderately. Cast aside all involvements and cease all affairs. Do not think good or bad. Do not administer pros and cons. Cease all the movements of the conscious mind, the gauging of all thoughts and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha. Sanzen has nothing whatever to do with sitting or lying down. So this sounds like Dogen is creating a, or bringing forth a reminder that we should not have a gaining idea about practice or becoming a Buddha, that in fact it will happen in and of itself. or not. You might not realize it, but don't try to sit and become a Buddha. There's a famous story of Matsu sitting, and he was being very serious, and his teacher Nanchuan came and says, what are you doing?

[47:42]

And Matsu said, I'm sitting to become a Buddha. And Nanchuan picked up a tile and started polishing it. And Matsu looked over and felt disturbed from his zazen. And he said, what are you doing, teacher? Roshi, whatever he said. He said, well, I'm making a mirror. And Matsu said, you can't make a mirror from polishing a stone. And Nanchuan said, but you can't become a Buddha by sitting zazen. So what's that about? Some people say Zazen is good for nothing. And there's some truth to that. But the nothing is something. It's kind of like nothing with a capital N is the way I look at that.

[48:47]

Excuse my eyes. He says, eat and drink moderately. When we sit on Saturday morning and have karaoke breakfast, there's a sense of moderation in what we do. We take our time in the serving. We do eat kind of quickly and nimbly, but when we're in the groove, so to speak, there's a sense of moderation in taking food and being respectful of the food. Tasting the food putting the bowls down washing the bowls the sense of moderation. So Again, it's just a simple little line almost like a throwaway eat and drink moderately And yet for me if I think about that when I'm not doing that it really hits me like a a

[49:55]

a sack of bricks, like I'm not being moderate, I'm being extreme. And it's okay to be extreme. We do have those times when we gorge ourselves. But the sense of moderation and middle way practice is what Dogen is trying to encourage us to do here. At the site of your regular sitting, spread out thick matting and place a cushion above it. Sit either in the full lotus or half lotus position. And then he describes the various, you know, the postures, lotus positions and where the legs and hands go. And, um, Of course, the same thing applies if you're sitting in a chair or lying down. It's mostly the state of mind that we are carrying, not necessarily the particular points in the posture. Of course, if you can sit full lotus, that's great. It's been proven that if you can get into that position, there's an alignment in the body and being centered and there's a flow of air and energy and whatnot that feels very different than when you're sitting in a chair.

[51:08]

Sitting in a chair, lying down takes actually a lot of effort in a different kind of way, but a lot of effort still. Actually just sitting, however we do it, takes a lot of effort as everyone here knows. He says, you should have your robes and belt loosely bound and arranged in order. Now for me, when I read that, that also hit me like a sack of bricks, arranged in order. So when we sit or when we are out and about, there's a sense of arrangement in what we carry with ourselves. If we have a satchel or a backpack, if we're wearing robes, if we have our keys, our rakasu envelope, how do we arrange ourselves? How do we set up this space, this diamond seat, if you will, which is what the seat that the Buddha sat on under the bow tree. How do we arrange ourselves to be respectful of that space and respectful of the practice?

[52:15]

Micah? Well, I was thinking about this line. I was looking through a magazine and there was a photo of an older Japanese woman in a subway station or some train station in Japan. She was wearing a beautiful kimono and she was wearing whatever this is that goes around you. And then she was wearing the belt. And I took two ceremonies. There's a certain way you tie the belt. the way that she was holding the bag, just the way her whole being was so beautifully arranged. It was beautiful. It was beautiful to look at, and it was so peaceful. She had this kind of... And this is turned in a certain way, and it was just so... And I thought of that line about how whatever that is that arises out of that, that comes out of that arrangement. You know, like the arrangement on the... It's not unnatural.

[53:17]

It's not unnatural. No. Yeah, it sounds like just being mindful. He doesn't say particularly how you should lay your robes out or how you should lay your rakasu envelope down. But if you're careful enough in the way you arrange your things, then in a way those things arrange you. and you feel the relationship between it, things are not objectified. The encouragement to sit upright and to have your ears in line with your shoulder, nose and navel, not leaning to the left or leaning to the right, there's One of the first things I remember reading about or hearing someone talk, maybe it was a talk, was that in Buddhism the model or the archetype is this person sitting upright and in the West,

[54:29]

one of the archetypes, not the one, but is Rodin's thinker who is hunched over and thinking. And not to diminish either of those expressions of humankind's desire to awaken, there's a very different feeling leaning over and thinking about something versus sitting upright. And I think what Dogen's talking about here in this upright position and being in a sort of a neutral position, that we're not leaning one way or another. We're not leaning into thoughts of good or bad. When he was talking earlier about holding views of pro or con, right and wrong, this and that, that there's a sense of neutrality. And when we get into this neutrality, and that's that quiet place, he kind of gives us this last few lines here, which I'll be talking about, which kind of sets a tone for practice in our mind.

[55:31]

Because he's already set the physical foundation. When we give Zazen instruction on Saturday, we spend a lot of time on the physical foundation, sitting upright. So we got the body part taken care of. And then we start talking about the mind and how to work with the mind. So this is how you work with your mind. Once you have adjusted your posture, take a deep breath, inhale and exhale. Rock your body right and left and settle into a steady, immobile sitting position. Think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Non-thinking. This is itself the essential art of Zazen. So this reference to non-thinking is quoting Yaoshan's teaching when a monk asked him about what he thinks about during Zazen. So when we take a breath in, we take in the world.

[56:35]

We take in all the things that comprise the world as we know it or as we don't know it or are conscious of it, but we're taking it in. holding birth if you will then there's a moment space if you will and then we exhale we let go of the world or that's death inhale exhale well this while it's all one thing there's a space there between the inhalation and the exhalation between taking things in and letting things go and What happens often when we continue to sit is our breathing slows down. We take fuller, deeper, rounder breaths as we've kind of quieted our mind and we're filling more air up in our lungs. And there's a bit more space between the inhalation and the exhalation. And what I found when I'm relating to people and things is that sense of space between the in and the out enables me to maintain a sense of

[57:43]

neutrality and openness to really receive things. If I'm just like taking them all in, it's very busy. And if I'm pushing it all away and letting, expiating, letting it out, it's also very busy. So what's that place right in the middle? And it's not holding one's breath. It's just a natural cycle of in and out. Or as Suzuki says, a swinging door, the door swings both ways. Sometimes we need to oil it so it moves a little bit more freely. And you can feel that. You can feel that in your body. When I started thinking about non-thinking, I started thinking about, what does that mean? And for me, it's a bridge between thinking and not thinking.

[58:47]

Thinking is important. We have to think. We have a mind. We need to make sense of things. We need to organize our life and we use our mind to think. It can get in our way. and we need to be aware of that and control it, if you will. If we don't think, then we're dead. This isn't like a space-out practice. It's an awareness practice. So by non-thinking, there's a bridge between taking the world in and thinking and letting it all go and not thinking about anything. It's a very subtle pivot, if you will, between these two worlds, which when we sit, we have glimpses of that. We have experiences of no inside and no outside.

[59:49]

And that's non-thinking. That's just being completely present. And if we start tripping out saying, wow, this is what enlightenment must be. This is what what all the sages of the past have been talking about, then we lose that balance on the fulcrum, and then we're on the side of thinking and gaining idea. And on the other side is that sense of just wherever we are, we're just kind of spaced out and not really, there's no tension in our being and in our practice. And it's a dead state and we don't want to cultivate that. But that happens, especially when we get physically tired or emotionally tired. And so how do we maintain the tension? of not too tight, not thinking too much, and not too loose, where it's just nothing happening. And that's the art of zazen. Mark? It sounds like an analogy that non-thinking is, this is how you're thinking about it, that space between the inhale and the exhale.

[61:03]

I think it can be. I think everyone's awareness of that space between inhalation, exhalation is different. So I'm reluctant to say that space is non-thinking. Because actually, if non-thinking is to be heard, reflected on, and embodied, it has to pervade the inhalation, the space, and the exhalation. And this is ongoing. practice. It's not just in that moment. I think that there's a, when we practice and we're kind of in this laboratory of just sitting and being completely aware of our Zazen, that that space there, in fact, can be a glimpse into that. And if we're just, when I received Zazen instruction, when I started sitting, Remember, the teacher said, just be completely with the exhalation, so it was... And at some point, Ross just disappears, and it's just... But just awareness of the sound, the feeling in the body,

[62:34]

the room and all of that, and that's non-thinking. But if there's an attachment, oh, this feels really great, and all of that, then the balance is off. So it's pretty, I think it's like Norman said, it's in the periphery. It's not back here. It's actually all around, right? But for class time, it's in the periphery. We bring it up so we talk about it a little bit. Not too much. In other practice places, they talk about it a lot. where I started practicing enlightenment and all this stuff was talked about a lot. So it wasn't here, it was like right here. So it was like a real driving thing, it was a different kind of energy. And it was wonderful to enter into practice that way because it was very exciting. But when I wasn't getting anywhere, it became very kind of discouraging. So it was kind of like, how do you balance all that sort of stuff out? Moved to Berkeley. Moved to Berkeley, yeah. Moved to Berkeley. Yeah, but there's traps in both schools of practice, and that's why, you know, Dogen

[63:46]

used koans and had a collection of koans, and Daito Lori wrote a book and has a commentary on these koans, and yet Dogen's teacher was, and the teacher's spiritual grandfather, was talking about this silent illumination and this poetic imagery, but the koans are contained within all that imagery too. Clay? Yeah, what's your comment on I have two thoughts on that. One is, And this is from personal experience. If I'm ruminating about something, there's a reason why I'm ruminating about it. And I have certain themes in my life that I have written many books on in my mind.

[64:47]

And so sometimes I just let it go. not let it go and come back to zazen, but I just let it go and I just let that thought just continue to happen. And that, I'm reminded of Suzuki Roshi's teaching of give the horse a wider pasture. Because in fact, when I let my thoughts continue to spin out and develop all these stories and fantasies and aspirations and all the things that go on, eventually it's like a ball of twine, eventually it just runs itself out. and it feels really good to let it run out. And I try not to kick myself in the butt for like wasting a period of zazen on it. The other thought I have is when I catch myself thinking about that, I remember Sojin and so many other teachers saying, just come back to breath and posture. And that's also helpful because that also feels good. So, um,

[65:50]

And I think it also depends on what you're thinking about. If it's just like the sort of common everyday fantasy type stuff, that's, you know, it's addressing something in our psyche that needs to be released or addressed or talked about with somebody. And if it's something maybe more serious, like, wanting to generate more compassion towards someone or something because there's a need for that. Well, that's something that's actually kind of wholesome thinking, you know, if you will, that could be cultivated and brought to a discussion. So it's kind of like, how do you, how do we want to sit as long as that? Do we want to take this quiet time to just think about things that will maybe help the world? Or do we want to just kind of stay on track? And I think that's as myriad as the number of people that are in this room. What do you think about the thoughts that arise and their place in your practice? Well, both of those attitudes, I think, are helpful.

[66:59]

Observing your self thinking and watching that. Yeah, the metaphor that Joko Beck has of the train and looking out the window and seeing our life or thoughts pass by feels also like non-thinking and that when we stick our head out the window and look at the thoughts that are coming down the track or looking back and seeing what we left is the thinking part. So how do we not attach to these thoughts that arise because they quite often mean a lot to us. John?

[68:29]

Yeah. One of the things I think is sort of for myself and my practice and how it's really kind of developed and evolved is sort of the art of dealing with thoughts that come up and exhaust that. And I hope for me it's like the initial thing is that this is really a very, very There's an absolutely sort of self-destructive approach. And it's kind of like an art, kind of like how to manage this process that these things come up. I remember once when you were with Mel, this whole thing about it, you said something very, very simple, sort of the nature of the mind to think. And it was actually kind of a revelation in a sense, like it's okay to think. relationship to those thoughts at the moment.

[69:42]

I'm pissed that I'm having these thoughts when 30 seconds ago I was in a wonderful state. Yeah, yeah. I think of that quote, I think Jagashiro Kuangroshi, it's either him or he's quoting somebody, breath sweeps mind, that our breathing kind of sweeps our mind and we don't get rid of the dirt Just like we do Soji, it's just a process of sweeping and moving them that keeps them from being sort of stale and stagnant and kind of collecting into some kind of configuration that we either like or we don't like. So that constant, so having breath as a backdrop in our life and breathing through things moment by moment I think enables us to live a little lighter, a little bit easier. Sue hasn't spoken yet. Thank you. Yep. I have the take the backwards step on my heart here.

[70:43]

Oh yeah? Ah. It's often a way in. If I ever remember it, it's a way of letting go of what is. Not clinging to what comes up. I'm very much grateful for that. I also did the best training. I remember when Ernhardt was teaching about coaching, and he was throwing a softball or something, and this woman had no clue how to catch or throw, and she kept jogging it, and it rolled into an audience of 5,000 people, which could be a little intimidating. After a while, they were just chatting, and he's off the stage with her throwing. And she forgot.

[71:48]

self-consciousness left, and she just threw. And you could see that moment. And I think that's the way it is for us. We get back on, we get off, we get back on. Yeah, it's ongoing. I had a fantasy when I started practicing that after a certain amount of time, it's just, you're kind of done with it. And I think what happens is, you're kind of done with the self-conscious beating up and all that other stuff. You still make mistakes, but there's a lightness and movement through, and you're aware of the precepts, their inspiration, their practice. They frame our practice, but we're not so caught up in it, as John was saying, kind of getting distracted by it. Did someone have their hand up? Richard. Yeah, really important.

[73:43]

Well, that's good what you just said. Relaxing the belly muscles and just breathing into our discomfort and just seeing what that's about, what that feels like. And I think in our practice, which is not so kind of, it should have that kind of tension like the sort of classic Rinzai stories show. I think it's important for us to remember that there is no next time. There's just now. Because I know myself when I've tripped out and done those mental things during a period of Zazen, I think, what the hell, I'll sit again tomorrow. And that's a trap. That just makes me lose the focus. It's always good to remember to come back to the focus. But it's okay not to come back to the focus, too. Yeah, I think it's the best of both worlds. So thank you all very much for the dialogue and trialogue and quadilogue that carried on.

[74:56]

And I believe next week Baika and Imo, Reverend Andrea and Raoul will be carrying on with Dogon. Yep. Beings are numberless.

[75:22]

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