I vow to chase the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good morning. I just spent a week at Tassajara and I came back last night. I led a retreat for the guests, you know. Maybe some of you don't know about Tassajara, but in the fall, in the winter and spring, Tassajara is a training place for Zen students. No one comes or goes. And in the summer, Tassajara is open to visiting guests and this tradition has been going on ever since Zen Center took over Tassajara in 1967.

[01:15]

And Tassajara has wonderful hot springs and it's a very special place. for everybody when they go there. Even if you're there for one day, in Tansahara in the summertime, you feel something very special about it when you leave. And of course, the Zen Center's atmosphere practice atmosphere and the attitude of the students has created an even more remarkable, made it even a more remarkable place. But ever since Zen Center opened, there's been a kind of division between the guests and the students.

[02:21]

Students take care of the guests. And the guests pay money and receive wonderful food and lead a very leisurely existence. While the students always work very hard taking care of them and also taking care of their practice. And taking care of the guests is the way they take care of their practice in the summertime. It's a kind of service. that the students offer to people. But recently there's been some feeling that the guests want to participate more with the students, and the students want to have a feeling more of practice with the guests. So,

[03:24]

They had, last year and this year, organized what we call a guest retreat, where the guests would have some introduction to the practice and have a schedule, which they didn't have to stick to, unlike the students. I was asked to lead one of the retreats. And I didn't know exactly how it would turn out. But it was quite wonderful. It was really quite wonderful. It seems that there are more and more professional type of people who are interested in practice these days. Of course, there's always been a mixture of types coming to Zen practice and interested.

[04:26]

But more and more, I think, certain type of professional people really appreciate practice in whatever way they can participate In the fifties, it was the beat zen. And although there were many types of people, a lot of young people who were looking for a way to find a lifestyle. And then in the sixties and seventies, there's square zen. where the teachers from Japan came and organized and offered people an organized way to practice and to find out what that was about.

[05:32]

And now, young people are all pursuing careers and making money, looking for money. And the generation of older professional people already know what that's about and they're looking for some way to find some peace in their life. So these people are very much attracted to practice and when I was at Tassajara I just heard over and over again that whatever a sanctuary or refuge the practice was for people So it's very encouraging that mature, grown-up people are finding this value of practice in their lives.

[06:44]

And usually, since the beginning of Zen Center, We've always set up standards for people, a certain kind of standard, that practice is difficult and you should meet those standards. And that very much limited the type of person that could participate. But in this retreat, we didn't hold to any specific special standards and people could come and go and participate any way they wanted to and it really allowed a lot of people to do something which they ordinarily wouldn't be able to or would find difficult.

[07:49]

I remember when I first started to practice I would go to a period of Zazen, one period of Zazen, and how powerful that was for me. And I wouldn't need to do Zazen again for another week. I mean, it was that strong, you know. And it was a big, big experience. And I think for most people, are introduced to the practice, one period of Zazen is a lot. So what would seem to a seasoned Zen student as not so much, to people who don't have so much familiarity with the practice, it was really a lot.

[08:52]

And people seem to be very satisfied So to me, I think there's a new feeling in how we do practice, or how practice reaches people, how our practice reaches people, and what kind of benefits, I don't like to use the word benefits, but maybe how it reaches people, It means for their luck. In the, as I say, in the 50s, we had Beat Zen, where people were just trying to find out. There was some mystique, Zen mystique, and people were trying to find out what that was. And they had various ideas about it, but didn't really know what it was.

[10:01]

And then the Japanese teachers came to America and presented us with Zen discipline and the history and lineage and actual practice of Zen. And that was a kind of contraction There were many, not too many, but there were many teachers who came to America during the 70s, 60s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. About 30 years, almost 30 years. And each one kind of set up a practice, an individual practice. and there was very little cross-fertilization or communication.

[11:06]

I think that the practice that was set up followed the oriental feudal system. You know, Buddhism is very ancient in the East, in Japan and China, and all over the East. And in those countries where the past few hundred years, up till recently, Japan and China have been governed by a feudal system, especially Japan. And the form of Zen practice, or religious practice, really followed the form of the feudal system. And each teacher had their own little fief, or place. The people around them are very loyal to the teacher or, you know, loyal to whoever was in power. And even though in the last hundred years all that has changed a lot, there's a very strong undercurrent of the feudal system which still prevails.

[12:24]

And especially in the ancient traditions like Buddhism, And we have inherited, I mean, we directly inherited the feudal system of Buddhism from Japan. And each teacher set up their own place and discouraged people from going back and forth. And that has its good side and its bad side. Democratically, would have its good side and its bad side. So I don't say the feudal system was really bad, or good, but it's good and bad. The good side was that it really consolidated people to stay with something. People in the

[13:27]

last 30 years of practice in America were encouraged to stay with one thing and really penetrate it. Stay with one teacher and really learn something from that teacher. And so in that way, it was invaluable. But on the other hand, it discouraged recognizing some other teacher or some other students. It kept people in isolation. and people criticize each other, which is not so good for any of us. So, in the last few years, there's been some feeling of opening that up, you know, people traveling back and forth and visiting other ways, looking at other ways, respecting other ways, learning from each other.

[14:30]

So that kind of opening up stage is just beginning to happen now. And in the 70s and 80s, the 70s, there was a big movement to have residential practices where lots of students would live together in a big practice place. And now in the 80s, there's more of a movement to decentralize or to have more non-resident kind of practice. Like the Berkeley Zindo is a place that's always been more non-resident than resident. So we're very much in style right now. We weren't so much in style for a long time, but now we're kind of modeled actually for a lot of people. And I think that's a good, that's pretty good.

[15:40]

Some people think that we've been through various stages and each stage will drop away. But my feeling is that each stage has been established and will continue to exist alongside of all the new stages. So a residential practice will, although a lot of people who've done that would need to be out in the world. And people who haven't done it will do it. So my view is that the ways of practice are expanding, that more and more people have the practice experience. And there just will be more and more rich opportunities and ways of practicing. But I think that this new direction of the people who have done residential practice for so long, to move into a wider field of

[16:57]

practice is quite good. It's a kind of growing up and finding out how to live in the world with your practice, how to extend your practice into the world after living in a very close way for a long time, practicing in a close way for a long time. that going out into the world will be a big influence on the world. I don't think that it's never been the style for Zen students to proselytize, which I think is quite good. And what has always drawn people to Zen practice

[17:58]

is the quality of the students' own lives, that kind of influence. And so the big challenge for people who are, those people who will be going into the world on their own more, will be to keep developing their character as a way to help people, to influence people through their own character. You can tell people how it is, but it must be genuine through your own activity. So, My feeling is that growing up is most important.

[19:04]

In this fall, I'm going to go to Tassajara to lead the practice period, the three-month practice period. And when I was at Tassajara, I was talking to the head cook, Tenzo, and she said, Is there going to be a theme for the practice period? And I thought about it for a minute and I said, well, it never occurred to me that there would be. I thought about it for a minute and I said, growing up is the theme. Learning how to take responsibility for your life. Last night I went to a meeting at Green Gulch.

[20:25]

There were about 20 senior students. And it was a kind of meeting to just to see what people had on their minds about the next development of zincin. And one of the things that people talked about was empowerment. Who's qualified to do what and why and how? And I felt I said something like there are two ways to look at that. One way is that in the past 20 years or so, very few people have been empowered within Zen Center to teach or to do anything.

[21:37]

to be responsible. And it's been a kind of withholding of empowerment, waiting for a perfect person to understand everything before they have any authority. And that's good. It's not bad. That's the ideal side. The real side is that there have been all these people, hundreds of people, who have practiced and put their whole lives into practicing for 15, 20 years. What's the result of that? Well, the result is, from my point of view, is that a lot of people who are very qualified to do a lot of things, but no one ever told himself.

[22:49]

So that's a whole other stage of something next, you know. What's next for all those people? What should they do? All the people in that room were actually qualified to teach in some way. But they didn't feel that they were. Somebody has to tell them. Somebody has to say, oh, yes, play it. You can do it. So there's really a great treasury of qualifications. Qualified students in America are just kind of beginning to feel their way in how to take care of our practice

[24:11]

and help people with it. And actually their bonds are cut, but they still feel bound. You know, it's like if you're tied up for a long time and somebody takes bonds off, you still feel the same way. Then you begin to move and you realize you can actually move your arms and legs. So that's very encouraging and I really feel that there's a need for people to meet with practice and there's a need for these people to help those people. So more and more, I think we have to take responsibility for our life, realize our own abilities.

[25:24]

Even though we may not be, may not have complete Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi, we may not be completely Still, each person has something to give to others on some level. I think there will be a whole new level and way of our practice developing in the next couple of years. More open and many more ways of forms, developing new forms.

[26:36]

For myself, sometimes people ask me where my confidence comes from. You always are so optimistic and you always have so much confidence. Where does your confidence come from? And sometimes I say to people, you have it too, but you just won't let yourself believe it. But my practice, I think that there will be many new forms and ways of practicing

[27:42]

But somebody has to keep a very simple form that doesn't change much. That's the advantage of having a practice place, a temple, and a certain style. and form, which just never changes. And it's always a touchstone for people. So my task is to just maintain that. You may have some very wild forms of practice which will develop in the future, but my job

[28:44]

is just to maintain this simple touchstone. I think that as long as we have the basis, always have the basis for our practice, simple basis, there can be many ways of expressing our practice and our understanding and helping people. But we should be careful not to lose the touchstone. sometimes called tradition or just basic zazen.

[29:57]

Do you have any questions? However, I know a little puzzle. I mean, so our hypothetical Zen student sits for 15 years. Clocks, you know, 850 hours of session time. This is a rock scooter. There's some incredibly talented people at Samsung who are just looking around.

[31:09]

And they're saying, OK, now what? Isn't it, in some respect, partly, I'm not saying you're, I'm speaking you're, in a plural sense, job to spot, to analyze, to see these guys and say, well, gee, why don't you try this? It's better just to let it be. I think it depends on the person. What do you see as your role in this dynamic? What is your feeling even more so? What's your experience when you see... I could be one of these people. I come here. And this place is a touchstone for me, very definitely. And I'll sit with Jack Kornfeld, and I'll be going with somebody up at NEMA to go to their meditation hall and get some information on how they structure their altars when I leave here.

[32:19]

What's your reaction to that? I see this happening a lot, and I see you see it. I think it's... you're doing what you feel is right to do. It's fine. You want me to reprimand you? No, no, no. I'm just... I'm curious, because I get different impressions from different teachers about this, right? Well... Depends, you know. Depends on what your relationship is to a teacher. If someone has a very close relationship to a teacher, you know, the teacher may feel that the person shouldn't look around too much. You know, if you keep dipping your toe in this water and that water, you know, you should decide something. But also the teacher may say, you should go look at this and this.

[33:35]

Or the teacher may say, get out of here. You know, it depends on the person. I don't think there's a formula. There's no way that you can cover everybody with one formula. Different people should do different things. Sometimes they should all do the same thing. Sometimes they should do different things. One of the things that came up last night was during the period of monasticism in America, when everybody's drawing together to do the very tight practice, there was a feeling that there's one way to do it and we all do it the same way, and we all are in step together.

[34:37]

But now there's more of a feeling of we're all walking together, but we all have a different, each have a different step. And instead of walking in line, we're walking side by side. But this is your pace, and this is my pace. And, you know, we still respect each other and realize that it may not be the same. It seems to me that for all the students, it's essential for everyone to have somebody, a teacher or a friend, who will say when they're not doing the right thing. Yeah. Or at least will question. And I think as the pool of older students grows, that does become, that we have a context, and that does happen more and more often. I think older students need less so much to have a teacher as someone very reliable who will say, oh, this isn't such a good one.

[35:46]

And it seems to me that for this whole question of empowerment, there are three aspects that are necessary A student needs to feel some sense that they can teach, that they have something. There needs to be in their Sangha environment, with their teacher, they have to get a vote of confidence that yes, that's right. And then the hardest part is they have to find the place and they have to make They have to make the opportunity, or they have to recognize the opportunity. They have to make their own way, actually. would be that the empowerment would be a collective process, that the process has begun, that they are empowering, that people who have been practicing for a real long time are empowering each other in a certain way.

[37:05]

Right. Now, that's not the traditional way. Well, it depends on what tradition you're talking about. You know, we have some idea about what the traditional way is, but traditional way is in various things at various times, in various places. And I think that at the same time that, say, you know, a teacher, you get some recognition from a teacher, There's also recognition from your peers as to what your abilities are. Because as everybody grows up, pretty soon the people that are your teachers are your peers.

[38:14]

The flower grows up and has one petal, you know. And then as the plant keeps growing, it gets lots and lots of petals. And pretty soon all the petals look alike. And you want some verification from the first petal. But, you know, all these petals, they look at each other and say, well, yeah, you know, I recognize you. I think, yeah, I see something in you. And people verify each other. naturally. So both is necessary, you know, both. It's not that you just take the teacher out of it or, you know, but that's all possible, you know, and necessary. I think that this is a really healthy process and I think that Maybe this will be one of the really essential parts of the process of American-making, this kind of practice.

[39:23]

Because what we got was very hierarchical. And maybe the first stage of absorbing that was, you know, all the places we know of where the authority was very hierarchical, and it came only from the top down, and, you know, what the Roshi said was like gospel and giving from on high. But I have felt for a number of years that that really didn't penetrate deeply enough into the American way of doing things. Because we're really more used to talking back and talking up, and we have authority, but there's a lot more give and take in the process with authority. I know Aiton Roshi said some time ago that this whole process of empowerment comes from the top down, but Maybe it's, I would say for everyone, but certainly the way Americans operate, if it doesn't also come from the bottom up, if everybody doesn't recognize Devin Parham, and that's the presence of all the other students, you know, really recognizing where somebody is.

[40:28]

In America, if it doesn't happen that way, I think it really won't penetrate deeply into the American spirit, because that really is how we operate. Doing it, well I'll give you an example. I've been practicing swimming, you know, and so I carefully lift my arm up and I put it in the water so I don't splash, and I kick and everything. So I went to the lifeguard at the pool and I asked her what am I swimming in. She told me I was too careful in the way I put my hand in, and it was coming out that I was, you know, I think this is a problem with a lot of Zen students, I was practicing too much, but I wasn't just swimming. And she said that I was going to hurt my shoulder if I stayed, if I swam so carefully all the time, I was going to get a lot of itching, if I tried to be so careful when I put my hand in.

[41:39]

You weren't really swimming. Huh? You weren't really swimming. No, I was practicing swimming. I was practicing. I was practicing. And I was impressed by how how this lifeguard picked up on it. So she picked up on everything I did while I was swimming. It was amazing. We went down a whole list of things. But now I realize that I had to start swimming and that I couldn't practice for another time when I was really good swimming. is more and more it becomes a question that people have to know when to lead and when to be led. Because every moment sometimes you have to jump in and lead, and then the next moment you may have to step back and gracefully be led, which is not easy to come in and out of that.

[42:52]

Yeah, that's the most important thing you can say. Thank you. That's the, you know, you kind of get a little bit apprehensive. Well, geez, everybody's going to go out there and lead, you know. What? But in order to lead, you have to know how to follow. This is, you know, all the way down to the Boy Scouts, you know. Everybody knows this. Should know it. You don't put people out there as leaders who don't know how to follow. That's why, you know, Zen practice is always based on following. And when you can really follow and give up your stuff, then, at some point, you do it. You know, go out there and lead. Because you've refined your life enough so that you can do that. So, it's true. Now, we can't stress that enough.

[43:59]

Restraint and self-knowledge is one side, and expression is the other side. We call it driving the wave and following the wave, or turning and being turned. Not just getting out there and telling people what's what. But even in those times, I've always been optimistic.

[45:02]

Even when I'm down. It's true. I think I've always had an underlying level of optimism. But, you know, up and downs on top of that. Just a minute. Eric? You mentioned talking about the hierarchy, recognizing when people are ready and seeing their abilities. What I seem to worry about is the idea of people being categorized just like you can say this is all wood in here and now you know what it is and you deal with it appropriately. was growing, and people getting put in these situations tend to remain there. And I've noticed a lot of people that felt like the only way they could grow in practice was actually to move on, because they were not allowed to expand their abilities.

[46:13]

Yeah. That's right. Yeah, that's true. The issue or questions which arise around impairment find some reflection. There's a classical form for this, or a traditional or classical form. I mean, your position here is a direct result of what she's saying. Good Ripley set up his intel, and not everybody gets that kind of distribution, right? Right. And we all look for it. I spend a lot of time looking for it, too. It's not that everybody is a teacher in that way.

[47:13]

Yes. But... What I'm talking about, you know, is the spirit of this. I'm not talking about... it may look like I'm saying, well, everybody should go out there and be a teacher. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there's a spirit of having your own confidence that you can express what you know, you know, and help people with it. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about that everybody should be given a robe and go out there and teach everybody. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just talking about the release of that spirit, you know, so that can happen. Okay? Another side of that, maybe this touches me because coming from Tucson where everybody wasn't a teacher, you know, we've gone through a lot of these kinds of experiences too, and with authority in every place, and putting people in charge, you know, leadership positions that the group didn't empower them, you know, so they were played on, and then having experiences with self-appointment,

[48:52]

well, now I'm going to come. And if the situation is very hierarchical still, so that authority has to come from above, and people don't have experience and haven't felt that kind of self-responsibility, so that they have confidence in saying, hey, maybe you've got a real good practice, but you have to work with us. Or in some ways, being able to establish a two-way process And I think that's so important for protection of the integrity of practice and the integrity of people. Yeah. But you know, the two-way process is really important. And what I'm really talking about is not so much people going around and setting themselves up. You know, I think that's wrong. But Just the recognition of what everybody actually has.

[49:59]

So you just feel confidence in yourself. That's all. Just that everyone should be recognized for what they actually are, have. Instead of doubting themselves. It may not be much, or it may be something. Do you understand what I mean? I think so. Okay. Thank you.

[50:56]

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