Well, let's read the sutra. maha-prajna-paramita-vidaya-sutra. Avalokitesvara, the Bodhisattva, practicing deeply the prajna-paramita, perceived that all five skandhas in their own being are empty and were saved from all suffering. O Sariputra, form does not differ from emptiness, and emptiness does not

[01:04]

do not appear or disappear, are not tainted nor pure, do not increase nor decrease. Therefore in emptiness no form, no feelings, no perceptions, no formations, no consciousness, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, no color, no sound, no No realm of eyes until no realm of mind consciousness. no stopping, no path, no cognition, also no attainment. With nothing to attain, the bodhisattva depends on prajnaparamita, and the mind is no hindrance. Without any hindrance, every perverted view one dwells in nirvana.

[02:24]

In the three worlds, all Buddhas depend on prajñāpāramitā and attain unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment. Therefore know that prajñāpāramitā is the great transcendent mantra mantra, which is able to relieve all suffering and is true, not false. So proclaim the Prajna Paramita mantra. Proclaim the mantra that says, Gathe, Gathe, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhisvaha. Well, I really enjoy reading this and studying it. And then chanting it every day. I mean, as we study it, I feel like it gets kind of in my bones in a different way than just chanting it.

[03:28]

talked about. I've been doing that, yeah. Reading it. Yeah. I wonder what you thought about that and if you intend to keep doing it. You mean holding the sutra book actually? Yeah, hold it. Well, you know, really you should. I mean that's the way, that's the way I was taught to practice with the sutra book. And I feel like there's a more... I feel like there's a three-way connection. When I'm just chanting, the words are arising in my mind, and they're coming out as sound. And when I'm actually... It's more... I mean, you have to... When you're holding the book, you have to hold the book. So it's kind of a more complete physical thing.

[04:41]

And then there's also the connection between the words that you're seeing and what you're chanting. So in a way, I prefer There's something about just chanting without having to hold a book or anything that I really enjoy. This takes a little more self-discipline on my part. But it's also traditionally what one would do. You would hold your... I mean, if you go to a monastery in Japan, you'll see they have these sutra books. They're actually like an accordion fold, and they'd be sort of flipping through the the pages. And I asked Mel about this, and he said, well, I don't know how we got into this not holding the books, but, you know, we should hold the books. But what do you think? I think reading it just seems to be, holding the book seems to be the way to go.

[05:49]

It unifies the whatever, you know, if everyone in the Zendo is, you know, holding the book rather than some are and some aren't. Yeah, well, I think that's another really important aspect of it. It's like we're all doing the same practice and Also, it sort of cuts across lines of, well, who are the old people? Who are the experienced people who really know these sutures by heart? And who are the beginning people that have to still hold this book? So I think it's better if we all do the same practice. How about the chant following that?

[06:55]

Well, first of all, it's not in the book, is it? No, I know it's supposed to be there. I'm thinking about revising it. There's actually a very clear etiquette as far as what you do with the Sutra Book during morning service and during the Jihyo Sanchi. Not or are? Not. Uh-huh. So, I mean, it's always a particular thing, yeah. I always feel sorry for the people who just walked in, you know, for the first time from somewhere else or whatever, and they just kind of look around, you know. Like, where are they? Yeah, where is it, right? You know, my short memory remembers that it wasn't long ago. I've seen it. Yeah. Well, I have in mind actually doing a revision of, you know, a slight revision of that book and the Kokyo book. in my spare time, I might get around to it. But I think it's good to do, to hold the cards and do this new practice. I have two thoughts about it, and one of them is, first of all, you know, it's that thing about, it is kind of, it can be, it's sometimes kind of an ego thing to know that sutras by heart.

[08:06]

You know, and I sometimes look around and it's like, And the other thing about it, and I can't even remember where I read this, somewhere in my readings, about the amount of material that we memorize. And that's not really such a great thing, you know, to have all of this storage of, you know, like I can remember my first telephone number that we had when I was at Dunn-Pearson Court in our Vatican. You know, and that kind of... You mean Great Neck 2-9-4-7-1? No, 4-2-1-2-9-2. No, it's just, you know, on that level of just the amount of stuff that we carry around in our heads, it's kind of unnecessary. There's another thing about it, too, in using the book, and that's the process of picking it up. There's... It's a ritual in the sense of gratitude, respect for it, that is, I think, also just really important that you don't get if you're just going to sit there and do it.

[09:23]

It's like you really are taking it and paying respects to it. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's the Buddha's word, so you treat it really carefully and hold it carefully. That's, I don't know, it's something I need, I would want to talk with Mel about how much he wants to emphasize something like that. I think he's in favor of it, but... There is something to be said. I mean, there's something about just sitting there not holding something, chanting, that I really like. So I don't know. I think that I'm going to try to keep on doing it. Mostly because I think it's good for us all to be doing the same practice, and I also think it's really good not to do things that set you apart from

[10:23]

from other people, particularly from newer people who are coming in. It's really, you know, it's pretty, I think the chanting can be really confusing to people, and some people really like it, and some people don't know what to make of it. So whatever way you can do to make it more accessible, less kind of special practice, because I'd encourage that. What is the actual form that you're supposed to... I notice some people raise the book and then pass it. Is there a special form to that that you think is essential? Or is it just being reverent and just lifting it? Well, I think it's like sort of offering it and then carrying it. How did you do it in New York? Pretty much like that. As I recall, it wasn't sort of flipped. But actually, each, in the Zendo, there's a shelf behind it.

[11:33]

If it was on the shelf, there was a sutra book. And so, you know, they weren't passed out. You would get your sutra book and place it down in front of you. And then before picking it up, you know, gosh, I have to admit, you pick it up. On your way in? No, when you're doing the chanting. No, but you pick it up on your way in. No, no, it's always there. It's permanently there. What? No, actually, it isn't. No, there's no shelf or anything. Usually they pass them out at Zen Center. I mean, for Seishin, you know, like Seishin here, you would have your own... At the seat, that's right. Yeah, you'd have your own at the seat. Oh no, at Zen Center, but you're always chanting in the... you don't have it at the seat because you're doing service at... in the Buddha Hall. So there's a way... usually they're passed out. Anyway, I think it's good to, you know, to offer it and then pass it.

[12:39]

And then as you're going to open it, I tend to offer it and then open it. And you hold them like this. When you hold it. I know some people hold it like that. Right. This is the way we hold it here. This is the style. With their three fingers on the outside and two on the in. But, you know, we're never going to get all these little things standardized. And it's not so important. The most important thing is the feeling that people offer to everybody else. over on these sort of little things. Is there a particular side that you keep it on? I've seen it sort of left and right. Not that I have heard. Totally non-standard. I don't think we've gotten that. Well, it's better not to put them on the floor. Yeah. You should put them on your sabaton, but I don't think it matters. This one's like tea ceremony. Yeah. It's a smart hand. Is there a problem? There probably is some side resources, we just don't get that far.

[13:44]

I think that would be nice if that were discussed, but everybody did that. I know as a person new to coming in, it is sort of like threatening that you're reading and a lot of other people are. Yeah. It's good to read it. Are there any other sort of carryover questions from last week? We sort of zoomed through a lot of stuff. Anything that's on people's mind? Well there was one that was on, somebody was talking with me after the class and this question, well what is this emptiness anyway? Is it an experience actually? Or something to experience? That's sort of the question of the Heart Sutra.

[14:58]

But I wondered, how you talk about something that you can't really talk about. And when somebody wants to know if it's an experience or not, can you say yes? Can you say, what can you say? And I wonder what people thought about that. What can you say about what? If somebody asks you Is emptiness actually an experience or something that you experience? What can you say about that? You know, I almost think it's... I don't want to use the word goal, but I sort of see it as transcending duality, and so I think it's a rather rare experience. It's really a trans... I don't know. It seems to me that it's a transcendent experience.

[16:00]

It's not the... Because usually we're in the world of either or, black and white, I don't know, all of these scandals. So I think it's... I don't know. It's just my speculation. But if it isn't an experience, then it isn't happening. I mean, if we don't experience it, It doesn't exist. But I think you have to be very careful though, because if you call it an experience, then you're already in the realm of duality. Then it's already something that you're objectifying. So it's really... I didn't call it experience, but I think that the problem is you're trying to understand something with, let's call it the left brain, okay?

[17:05]

Rationalogical thinking, well, whatever that is, that transcends the left brain, okay? So, I mean, we're stuck with... You know, analysis, verbal analysis, which is at a level that is not in the same realm as, in quotes, emptiness. So, I mean, there's a contradiction right there. It's like, that's the problem, trying to deal with something that is not in the realm of words, with words, with the left brain. I think there must be a concept of emptiness, which I don't know or have heard explained. I would love to hear someone explain it, and we could talk about it in the realm of experience. But there must also be a way to talk about it in the realm of concepts.

[18:08]

I mean, because, for instance, non-describable experiences are of all varieties. Emptiness is not. Or is it? Ecstasy? I don't believe so. I believe the practice of Buddhist emptiness has a concept content, which is not obviously what you think at the moment of experiencing, but it is something that could be described in a concept way. And since we are here using words, I think perhaps we ought to seek that. It's not that I can help much. parenthesis here, in the Tiger's Cave, page 80, Living Without Leaving a Track, when the opposition of subject and object disappears, Yeah, that's what I meant.

[19:15]

Why don't you read? Actually, that's what I was going to read. Why don't you read on? Hidden to it at step in life, a great imprint was left behind. While there are hearer and heard, at every sound arise the three passions of greed, anger, and folly. While there are seer and seen, our minds set them in opposition, and the different passions arise. While the two confront each other, while they have not become completely one, we are always leaving at each step a track, which is the root of evil. But for one who has actually realized emptiness, both seer and seen, hearer and heard disappear, and he can walk in life without his tread leaving any trace. To leave no trace is nothingness. So often is mentioned this nothing, nothing, and we have to understand what it really means. So, to attempt to describe or even consensualize is certainly a way of leaving a track.

[20:30]

I like the next paragraph, actually, also. To laugh without leaving behind any trace of laughter, to weep without leaving any trace of tears, to rejoice without anything of that rejoicing remaining behind, this is a state of lightness. And to be able to live in it is the life of emptiness, life with nothing in its heart. Then not one of the five skanda aggregates leaves any trace. Their forms are all forms of emptiness. You see, I see that more as a result rather than the practice itself. I mean, the practice, if you seek such a thing, you're going to get yourself in a lot of trouble. And it seems to me that, you know, that sort of definition of living without leaving a trace is perilously close to to not committing yourself, to not getting involved in the details of life in an energetic way?

[21:34]

Well, that's a question, actually. That's a question. Actually, that's kind of the question that I wanted to bring up today, because it also relates to the question of good and evil, or good and bad, that I was reading about in the Thich Nhat Hanh and thinking about a lot. But I'm not... I'm not sure that that's really what that means. But to go back a second, this is a description of the state of emptiness, not a roadmap. So I don't know... Is emptiness then a state rather than a practice? Well, it may be both. I mean, I could answer the question, do you separate practice from dualization? Well, we do all the time. We live dualistically.

[22:35]

Whether we aspire to other things, we live dualistically. We practice dualistically. And that's the problem. Well, it's a problem that's not easily solved. It hasn't been easily solved. We have to sort of, we have to grapple with this in our own way, but we can't, we can't sort of... You know I have this, you know the book from most of you, Zen and the Art of Archery by Herigel, I think that, it occurs to me that that's probably a description of what happens. I mean, what can happen. along a lot. He practices for about seven years. And actually, at the beginning, you have to try. I mean, how else can you do it? But the more you try, the further away you get. You know, in this case, it was hitting the bullseye in the archery. That was his practice. But he had to go through it. You have to go through all this effort, and trying, and missing, and all the agony of this.

[23:37]

And then, finally, in his scenario, he finally reaches that point, which, you know, I kind of speculate maybe that's emptiness, where he and the arrow and the bullseye and the bow and everything becomes one, and he does a try, and he hits it, you know, and this is, you know, probably ineffable. Maybe there's no word for it, but I sort of wonder, my question is, maybe that's emptiness. You mean the whole practice, the whole seven years? Yes, I think it's the process. It's the whole process, okay. I mean, how long does emptiness last? Is it... Okay, I'm empty now, folks. Okay, it's the whole process. Okay, well, that's a beautiful idea. And I think that's actually what he's saying.

[24:40]

I think it's an aspiration. I don't think it's something that... I think it's an ideal. Yeah. That's what I think. I think there are other ways of talking about it. You could talk about it as interdependence on the complete interdependence of all things and that experiencing emptiness When we say, you know, form is emptiness, we're seeing that there is nothing that has a self in and of itself that is not constructed out of interaction, out of all these different elements interacting. So, one way experiencing emptiness is actually you could talk about it as experiencing this interconnectedness but or you could talk about it as you're talking about emptiness is form which we were talking about a little last week

[26:04]

realize that there's nothing, that there is no void as such. The emptiness, to me, it has a real charge in language. I just see this kind of black space. Whereas in reality, all of these forms, emptiness is the existence of all these forms coexisting and interrelating. and having some realization of that might be the experience of emptiness. But I think that what's really important is that this question about emptiness is the koan for us, for our practice. and for our zazen. And it's the same question that Dogen urges us towards in Genjo Koan.

[27:24]

In realizing practice in everyday life, he advises you, he says, think not thinking. And then he asks, How do you think not thinking? Non-thinking. And that's the same thing. That's like the process of zazen, the process of... the process of just examining our experience and our emotions as they arise and questioning each one and trying to see both what its root is and what it is we think we have a stake in.

[28:28]

Actually on the next page, page 82, Bora talks about that a little. What is this anger which rises? What is this complaining? What is this greed? In this way, we directly confront the wrong thoughts and ideas which arise day and night. If on them we perform our spiritual discipline, we become able to have a little taste of the world of emptiness. Emptiness is not to be a concept in our heads, a sort of contentless void. It is something to be realized in actual experience. To have nothing at the bottom of the heart is to experience emptiness. Then we see Then we see, but it leaves no trace. Here it leaves no trace. From the confusion of sixfold subject and object, we have been pulled along, but now our steps leave no track and we know the experience of being light.

[29:32]

Nothingness means lightness in this sense, the joy of leaving no track behind." So he's talking about over and over again inherent in all the sections is this kind of this idea of having, what I'm standing to mean by having nothing at the bottom of the heart is like having no secret agenda of self-aggrandizing. It's like we do these things because we have these fears that we talked about last week, you know, for loss of approval, fear of death, various kinds of fears, and we have a desire to see ourselves as something that exists. I mean, when somebody does something to you that, you know, when somebody does something that you think is wrong, you know, or, you know, breaks

[30:44]

your personal rules. You can have the ability to look at it and see what you have at stake there. I don't know if this is clear. What I think the practice of it, as opposed to chopping this thing up in order to understand it. The practice of it is, in my way of thinking, the practice, and I heard you do the same, Alan, is the practice of fully committing yourself to drinking a cup of tea. Fully committing yourself, I think the practice of listening is very, very close. Because what I heard you say, Alan, there was, you know, when you're without having a hidden agenda in the bottom of your heart.

[31:47]

And good listening is the practice of not in trying to think what you are going to say, but what the person is saying. And, you know, that is very close to being empty in your relation to someone else, to be completely committed to what that person is saying, rather than thinking about how you are going to, what of, or whatever. I think there must be other ways, you know, you're drinking tea, you're listening. I think the consistent thing through all of this is effort, you know, is bringing yourself fully to bear on it, whatever it is. Well, I think you have to make that effort, yeah. And that's why we practice. We have some We have some desire to let go of this weight.

[32:48]

To let go of these things that we have at the bottom of our heart can really drag us down. And there's something in each of us that would like to let go of it. So we take up practice. And we can learn to listen. But our feelings are going to rise anyway, though, I think. Your anger or confusion, joy, all these feelings, they're going to come up anyway. And I don't think the objective is not to eliminate these feelings. You can't anyway. What? You can't anyway. You can't, but you can think that that's what you're supposed to do. And if you're, you know, it's like if you don't have an agenda or something at the bottom of your heart, then

[34:07]

is when things happen, you can, in a sense, take advantage of them. You can really completely do that moment. I mean, if you're angry, you can be completely angry and then just let it go. If you're joyous, you can be completely joyous and then let it go. And these things are just going to come up. They're going to come up from beyond you. they're going to come up from your karma that you don't know about, or they're just going to come up, the universe is going to offer you these things that you don't have any thought about at all. And if you have something at the bottom of your heart, if you have something that you want to support, then you are going to miss what's being offered to you by the universe because you'll be lost in yourself instead of having your eyes open.

[35:16]

Are you talking about ego? I know you keep talking about the bottom of your heart, but is it probably talking about ego? Yeah. I guess it's ego. It's more like ego has some particular I guess from reading psychology, ego has some particular meaning to me, you know, sort of in the more conscious realm. I mean, I think about it as self, as the idea of self. I don't know, but I think ego is probably close enough. I think this is really... I think, you know, if nobody ever said anything about emptiness to me, I would never have thought about attaining it.

[36:17]

So I think it's like, I think it's a setup or something to like really focus and think about this stuff, or... I mean, sometimes I think of it that way, when I'm paranoid. I mean, maybe that's what it is, but just like, non-thinking, like, what are you going to do when you think about it? What is that non-thinking? experience or upset our members. that the experience that I'm supposed to have the experience that

[37:28]

I also don't think about it as being something that you're gonna get tomorrow or next Friday Sometimes when I read these books, I get the feeling that it's something that's going to happen soon, or you try hard enough, or that you can say, OK, I'm going to commit myself to this. And it doesn't seem, it seems like in order to be committed, you have to be committed. You can't just say, OK, I'm going to do this. Do you know what I mean? In response to what you were saying. I'm really going to listen. Either you're listening with full body and mind or you're not listening with full body and mind.

[39:28]

I don't think there's... I don't think there's sore listening. There's either listening or not listening. You're either listening completely or you're not listening. It's hard to stay incomplete, which is most of the time. Well, listening in the sense of being complete is something that is the practice of listening, the practice of having to be. But that's rare, isn't it? Yeah, I think it is rare, because I think that we're not completely there. So that's what the practice is to help us? Well, I think that the practice is an intention to listen. And a lot of the practice for me is remembering this intention. It's just keep coming back.

[40:30]

I mean, I intend to sit there. Lately, I've been having a lot of trouble with I'm withholding my mudra. I kind of want to sit there like this, because it feels really comfortable. And as well, that's not the practice that I intended to do here. Now, that may be fine. you know, and I might, you know, maybe I'm just being rigid trying to hold something else, but that's not the practice that I intended to do here. So I have to remember, put my hands together like this and, uh, just something in me, I'll just kind of go like this. And I keep trying to come back. So what is it, you know, I mean, the question is for me,

[41:31]

which is a really interesting question. What is it that wants to go like this? What is it that's resisting going like this? What is really the difference there? I mean, actually, there is no difference, but there's something very mysterious and I mean, I can't say it's ego. I don't know what the hell it is. When you find it, you'll like to show it to us. Maybe it's the baby's keeping you up at night. And you're tired. Well, I may be tired. I don't know. It's comforting. It's soothing. And I know that when the weather is warm, I will be happy to go like this. You know, even though my hands are not cold like this. It's something that I do in cold weather. And then, you know, I find Okay, well, I'll just do this for a little while, you know. But, uh, it's... I don't know about...

[42:32]

about any of you, but I find myself at various times cutting deals with myself in Zazen. First five minutes off, if I just clear out these little checklist of things, then I'll really concentrate on my breathing. Right, exactly. That's exactly it. So, this is what I mean by, I mean it's partly what I mean by having this agenda. You know, what is so important about this? You know, why do I have to think about this little checklist of things? Now, really, I don't have to think about it. You know, it's not any work, I mean, that I have to do right there in the zendo. I found myself thinking about my job, my new job this morning, and I just thought, I don't have to think about this, I'm not even going in today. But the question, to me, what's really interesting is the process, there's always this process of inquiring, where is this coming from?

[43:47]

Who keeps asking me to think about my job who keeps asking me to hold my hands like this what's being what's being protected uh... i think i can approach things fairly psychologically and uh... sort of looking at this phenomena from say a perspective like psychoanalysis and a person's analysis and one of the things that is uh... principle part of it is resistance. It's there. And you can say it's like, you know, all the very kind of primitive substratum, you know, the personality, karma, all the things that keep you kind of going around and around the same old stuff again and again. It's kind of an inertia in it. Habit, you know, a real strong kind of habitual quality to it. Whenever you sit down to do something, to kind of focus on something and say, okay, I'm going to do this, especially if it involves making fundamental changes in how you live, who you are, values, this can be resistance.

[45:06]

And your resistance comes from what has been traditionally called the, in quotes, unconscious, or deeper processes and so on, but in any case, it's not ego, and we don't have it, which is why I keep, you know, the ego is wanting to, has the intention, and that's in the conscious level. But this is happening despite your intention. That's right. So then you have, so you're trying to deal with something that's really in a deeper level. So what I try to do lately is, because this stuff that's arising is also your Buddha nature. So lately, I guess in a way I sort of try to honor it. I just say, well, here's me that likes to hold his hands like this, you know, or that likes to think about, that likes to reach around and scratch my back.

[46:19]

I mean, I noticed something else, I've been noticing something else recently, this is like true confessions, which is very habitual, you know, and it's really interesting to notice these things. I noticed that when I put my hands in gassho, Often I want to touch my face. Like this? No, no. It's like I want to scratch my face or something, but it's like when I put my hands up like this, they want to go to do something. Like I just did it, my lip itched, you know. These are, this is arising from, I mean, I could do a psychological analysis of a different kind. I could think about this, but it's pointless to analyze this.

[47:25]

On the other hand, it's something karmic. It's something that is beyond my immediate understanding, and it's something that I feel is really powerful. It's such a small thing that maybe nobody else notices, would ever in my whole life notice that I did that. Somebody might though. It's something you'll never do again. No, I've been trying not to do it again. In regards to all of this talk about effort and trying to do things a certain way, there's, I can't remember who said that, but this concept of the maple leaf falling down very naturally, showing its front and showing its back.

[48:27]

You know, just not caring that much. Well, I think that's what I'm trying to do by honoring it. It's just accepting that this is something that I do. And giving it room that it could change. And when I notice myself doing it, I notice it. There's not so much judgment about it, but just like, oh, I'm doing it again. There's a little bit of judgment. Well, I think it's all right here. I mean, it's all been written down. The Abhidharma, everything's been pulled apart. How do you think they came to the conclusion of all this? They were probably going, here I am thinking again, and just thinking, and then just picked it apart. And it's all right here. Mental formations, feelings, perceptions. So that's why, the same thing, you know, when I'm thinking of Zazen, I don't think, oh God, you know, here I am thinking again. I think, what is this about?

[49:29]

Here I am thinking again. thinking, thinking, thinking. I went on for months. [...] I went Well, Mel has mentioned before at lunchtime some lecture where, you know, it's like when you're angry, you're angry Buddha. That's another way that's really been useful for me to think about kind of giving that space. It's like whatever you're doing, it's, you know, you're thinking Buddha or you're angry. It's been helpful sometimes. Also, yeah, I was just going to say,

[50:33]

But what happened before in our discussion of this, kind of fairly apt for practice, is the bell rang. So we had to stop. And we just go back to a breath. We focus. And it's like, again and again, again and again. And every time the bell rings, it shifts something. Even though we may pick up with the same sentence, I mean, I know for me, if I'm picking up the same sentence, something has shifted slightly. Something has changed course that's beyond me. And that's like, that is like this wonderful moment of emptiness when the words are meeting the sound. The ideas and the whole feeling in the room just can move in some other direction. It can move like that at any second.

[51:37]

I wish it felt like that at stop signs. You can feel like that at stop signs. Yeah, right. And I noticed myself feeling like I do at stop signs. Like, oh, the bell rang again. Someone was saying something really interesting. That was my... Sometimes my feeling when the bell rings. I was thinking when you were saying that. If everyone were really listening. Yeah, right. And then really dropping to that bell that's like said, okay, signal, remember, you know, deepen. I think that would be really, the course would change even more dramatically. But I find myself like clinging to some idea that occurred to me like five minutes ago. And I'm just trying to focus on what you're saying and deepen. But then there's this part of me that's got this little thing that wants to talk about, you know, that still hasn't been aired. And I think if everybody else had their little thing that they still have sticking on them that they want to discuss, that they haven't gotten out, then it doesn't move as much.

[52:47]

I'm wondering, you know. Well, I think a lot of people do, though. I think a lot of us do have you know, it's like, okay, well now, okay, I'll breathe here for this moment, and then let's get back, right, you're not gonna forget about that. And I think that's really human. I think it's really human to try to remember this, you know, and try to have this desire to express yourself and to hold on to a thought even though other things may be changing around you. Well, my little technique is lately is if, you know, if stuff comes up that I just really don't want to think about then it's like I'll write a little note and say, okay, now you can let go of that.

[53:48]

Yeah, that's good. You think that's okay? Yeah. Because I don't think I cling as much. It's like, oh no, I don't have to really remember that because it's written down here and you can think about it later. Right. I think that's a really good way to integrate things. Just so there's something, you know, maybe dispersed enough. You're not trying to remember it again. Or not ruminating. I think if I were to write things down, it probably wouldn't help much because they'd still ruminate. Well, that could be. Find something else. All this talking came up from when you mentioned about the fear. I mean, what happens when you... Why is it that we keep thinking, you know, when we don't need to think at this moment? We can, you know, just sit. I mean, it seems to me that's what a lot of this came from. That feeling of, why do we need to maintain the dialogue or the... activity?

[54:50]

Well, it's habitual. I mean, most of us, a lot, we don't know how not to do that. And, yeah, there's some fear that feels like we need to do that. Because we don't know what it'd be like if we didn't do that. And that, again, this is totally speaking from my own experience. Something I read some time ago. It was something that the Dalai Lama had written. And it was talking about the issue of habitual stuff, and that a lot of one's practice is to create new habits. Especially practicing the paramitas. as a way to sort of get in the habit of doing things a different way. And if you get, you practice it again and again and again, it becomes more habitual and the old habits will kind of wither.

[55:52]

I'm just sort of fascinated with the fact that your hands want to move in a different way. I don't know what that means, but one speculation has to do with the desire, the intention to do whatever one's doing perfectly, and this, let's call it unconscious or whatever, unknown, mysterious part that wants to remind us how imperfect we are, or we're going to do this imperfectly. I don't know, it's just a speculation. I'm not sure I need that to remind me. No, you don't need to. I got lots of other clues. I don't know. It's a possibility. I don't know, it feels very physical. Yeah, it is interesting, but anyway, it'd be interesting to explore it more. I mean, you can do it yourself, you know, symbolically, but I think there's a meaning there.

[56:54]

I'd like to ask a question. Does everybody listening tell us, do you have the urge to want to interject? I'm just curious about that. I'd like to just sort of get a feel for that. Or whether it's just one of my little things. Do you want to say something? I feel like I said a lot. For me, a lot of stuff is always telling myself, shut up and just keep quiet. Not to, not to, because I want to again and again and again. I've always got something to say.

[58:03]

See, that's me. And I just have to, sometimes I have to ask myself, is it really important? And maybe someone else will say it anyway. And I just have to very consciously kind of rein myself in, probably more than I do. I don't think everybody's the same, though. Well, no, but I'm just curious, just of the people in here, like, you know, have this, like, interest in the Heart Sutra, and that have this same practice, you know, that, you know, that's a typical sort of desire, you know? I think it's an interesting point, and I also think that if you want to say something, I think, I'm not reading this class, but I think you might feel free to. Well, no, what occurred to me early on that I haven't been able to let go of is the concept of emptiness and seeking emptiness and seeking ecstasy and ecstatic and wondering whether

[59:09]

we think that the emptiness will be this ecstatic experience and therefore that's why we're looking for it. But do you? I question it. But you know I feel like I've had you know ecstatic experiences but you know it's all relative and I don't know if you know but it's sort of like wondering you know is there is there this other side that's so close or maybe you know I don't know, just the pleasure aspect of it, or the ecstasy question, or the... It just keeps coming up for me. I have a feeling that emptiness doesn't have a lot to do with ecstasy, and when I have those moments of feeling empty, there's not a need to be ecstatic. You know, in dancing, I'm in a dance troupe and we do a lot of improvisation.

[60:27]

And, you know, some moments where it's like you stop thinking and just move and there's just this movement and there's not thought. And to me that feels like when I get close to being empty. It's when I'm just doing and not thinking about what I'm doing or judging it or thinking about the next step. So I think that in those moments there's just not a need to be ecstatic or a goal to be ecstatic. But maybe I'm wondering when you reflect back at that moment when you're just dancing, just dancing, are you, you know, you remember it ecstatically? Yeah, but that could be just a function of remembering, and remembering is not remembering something as remembering, it's not the same as being there, you know?

[61:32]

Because, well, for instance, you know, thinking back on our childhood, you know, when I think back on my childhood, it's not, it's not pure thought, there's like, all of my projections about how I feel I was raised, and all of my ideas about how I, you know, that's all confused in ideas about it. There's no way to really have that exact experience. I don't know. I wonder if a lot of our talk doesn't have to do with time and concepts of time. The discussion, the lecture that Mel did during the Rehansi Sashin about the, you know, just the notion that really, you know, our childhood is gone and we can sit and think about it all we want, and we can think about it this way, we can think about it this way, or this way, or this way, but it's not there.

[62:38]

I have even caught myself feeling nostalgic for something that happened yesterday, you know? Like it was something in the deep, dark past. And suddenly I wrote, I'm feeling sad about something that happened 24 hours ago, you know? As if this were, as if this were, you know, sort of gypsy violins, you know? I catch myself thinking, this is ridiculous, you know? And you realize that it's just all of these efforts to not be here, you know, that you just want to be And I think... That's that fear that comes up in Zazen. That fear of being here. I know for me, for quite a while, I unfortunately have a really good sense of time. And at about 35 minutes into a period, I start getting really antsy. And I've been really looking at that, you know, it's like all of a sudden everything hurts,

[63:44]

and I want to move my head, or I get kind of short of breath, you know, and it's always about five minutes before the bell rings. And I think it's something about just being afraid of being there, you know, and sitting through whatever is underneath that urge to move. But I think, I know for me it's Very fear-connected. It's really hard, and that's the, again, I keep coming back to that question, why am I afraid of that? There is really no good answer. No. I heard Bob Yenisek say something really straightforward, you know, it's the fear of saying that this is all there is. pretty close to something, I don't know, that's... Yeah, which kind of goes back to what you were saying, you know, that kind of longing for ecstasy or emptiness, which actually makes me think more about greed, or maybe you're more concerned about your greed rather than

[65:10]

your desire for it. I think it's my desire to make those experiences be more transcendent, or I'm not sure, or whether they were transcendent or, you know. Well, it sounds like you had the experiences, but did you have a desire for them before you had them? Or did they just happen? It sounds like the question is more about desire than you probably want them again. Yes. That's the problem. You're really good, you want, something good happens and you want it again. That's right. You want it to last. Well, or you compare. You say, you know, that was so amazing and doesn't it remind me of this or that? There you go. You know? I really want something. But it was good for me because as soon as I said it, now I've been able to focus more, you know. I'd like to raise a question.

[66:18]

Who's been doing the mantra? Who's going to raise that question? Yeah. I tried, I didn't get anywhere. I just didn't do it. I saw it for a while. I don't know, does anyone have anything to report? It would come back to me like I come back to my breath. Like, doing anything. I mean, you know, work, or on the bus, or walking. Cante, cante. You know, that sort of thing. Or just like I come back to my breath sometimes. It wasn't something I picked up to actually

[67:20]

I had experience for a little while with it. A friend of mine sort of put a metaphor on it that I like. He said a mantra is like a sponge. It just soaks up a lot of extraneous thinking. You know? That seemed to work for a while. I can sort of see it as just mopping up thoughts. Then I really, you know, just got to a point where it was sort of nothing. I think there would be a big difference between saying it out loud, you know, pretty constantly, than thinking it. I found, I was grateful that you had suggested the idea. It came to me when, as you said, I was expecting her to tell you, but in some moment... It was some...

[68:50]

in some really difficult moments. And then it came to me. And, oh, it was nice. I thought, that was a nice idea. I'm glad no one suggested it. It came to me when I needed it, which was nice. That was kind of my experience of it. It was one day, I had to go to traffic court. And I got there early. And there were steps going into the traffic port. So I thought, well, this is really interesting. And so I grabbed this sheriff that was coming out, and I said, how does one get in here? And he said, oh, it's down there at that door. So I go to the door, and the door's locked. And then it came to me. And I mean, the whole thing was a fiasco, and I did end up getting in and everything. And then also, when I was swimming the other night, I usually swim about a lot of laps and about a third of the way through I get really bored and really antsy.

[69:55]

And I just started saying the mantra and I got through 20 laps and I just went, oh wow, you know. And then I had like my last third to do and so it kind of came to me when I get impatient or antsy. And then yesterday we do movement work at Fairmont Hospital which is a very difficult place to be. It's the county hospital and the people there are very poor and some of them in very bad ways. And I got really sad yesterday when we were doing our work and the mantra came to me there, you know, again. So it seems to have come up more at times when I was angry or impatient or really sad than it was just like popping in my head when I was sitting at my desk. Yeah, I find it comes to me like that also. But it's come to be sort of emblematic of the Heart Sutra to me.

[71:08]

It reminds me of the Heart Sutra and what I'm trying to practice, except that it's so It's just nice and compact and it has its own sound. Did we talk about the translation of it at all? Did we discuss what it literally translates as? I mean, it's actually... Excuse me, Ellen, who translated this one? I mean, I've seen so many different translations. This translation, I guess, is based largely on Kahnse's translation. And it was, the wording was actually originally done by one of the, an old student, David Schneider. And there have been some relatively recent changes and revisions.

[72:11]

Mel did some a couple of years ago, just minor things. And Suzuki Hiroshi's hand was in this at some point, or no? Probably. Actually, I'm not sure. But in all the translations, in Japanese and Chinese, well, in Japanese, the Sanskrit at the end gets kind of Japanized. but it still stays Sanskrit. It still says, gāte gāte pāra gāte pārasam gāte bodhisvaha. And I think the intention was actually not to translate that, but still you can, the words have some, they're not nonsense syllables. So it's something like gone, gone, gone beyond, completely gone beyond or completely

[73:13]

God beyond or gone across. And then perfect enlightenment or enlightenment hallelujah. Something in that order. And there's I think one of the books that I was reading had a nice way of putting it and sort of interpreting it. It was sort of gone, gone, gone beyond, completely gone beyond. It's like crossing oneself and then crossing for others, crossing to nirvana, the other shore, and then all together completely transcending. That's nice. Yeah, I think that's really nice. So it really puts it in, this translation puts it in the concept, in the context of Bodhisattva's practice.

[74:23]

You know, that you do this practice, first you have to start from this practice out of some personal necessity. And soon you learn that your personal necessity is connected to everybody's personal necessity. And then you find out, well, if we all do this practice, one can transcend the suffering and delusion. And then the last is that we can all, together, completely transcend that. So that's a very nice interpretation of that, I think. Could you read that once more? Yes. Crossing oneself, crossing for others, crossing to nirvana, the other shore, and all together, completely transcending. So I think this is a practice that you can keep doing.

[75:43]

We don't tend to work on these kinds of practices very much around here, but you can just do it whenever you find it useful, like breathing, like paying attention to your posture as you walk down the street, paying attention to your breaths. I think it's good just because it's the heart suture which is really sort of very much at the core of our practice. So I think it's fine to do. I really wanted to talk about this, you know, Thich Nhat Hanh. I'm a little reluctant to go into it in ten minutes. Did people read that? I had a problem with... I had a problem understanding something.

[76:55]

I think it was the question that maybe Meryl brought up earlier in the evening. In the Majjhima Nikaya, there is a very short passage on how the world has come to be. It is very simple, very easy to understand and yet very deep. This is because that is. This is not because that is not. This is like this because that is like that. This is on page 32. This is the Buddhist teaching of Genesis. In the city of Manila, there are many young prostitutes. Some of them are only 14 and 15 years old. They are very unhappy young ladies. They did not want to be prostitutes. Their families are poor, and these young girls went to the city to look for some kind of job, like a street vendor, to make money to send back to their families.

[78:03]

Of course, this is not only true in Manila, but in Ho Chi Minh City, in Vietnam, in New York City, and in Paris also. It is true that in a city, you can make money more easily than in the countryside. So we can imagine how a young girl may have been tempted to go there to help her family. But after only a few weeks there, she was persuaded by a clever person to work for her and to earn perhaps 100 times more money. Because she was so young and did not know much about life, she accepted and became a prostitute. Since that time, she has carried the feeling of being impure, defiled, and this causes her great suffering. When she looks at other young girls dressed beautifully, belonging to good families, a wretched feeling wells up in her, and this feeling of defilement has become her hell. But if she had an opportunity to meet with Avalokita, he would tell her to look deeply at herself and at the whole situation and see that she is like this because other people are like that. So, this is like this because that is like that.

[79:04]

So, how can a so-called good girl belonging to a good family be proud? Because their way of life is like this, the other girl has to be like that. No one among us has clean hands. None of us can claim it is not our responsibility. The girl in Manila is that way because of the way we are. Looking into the life of that young prostitute, we see the non-prostitute people. And looking at the non-prostitute people and at the way we live our lives, we see the prostitute. This helps to create that, and that helps to create this. Let us look at wealth and poverty. The affluent society and the society deprived of everything inter-are. The wealth of one society is made of the poverty of the other. This is like this because that is like that. Wealth is made of non-wealth elements and poverty is made by non-poverty elements. It is exactly the same as with the sheet of paper. So we must be careful. We must not imprison ourselves in concepts.

[80:06]

The truth is that everything is everything else. We can only inter-be. We cannot just be. and we are responsible for everything that happens around us. Avalokiteśvara will tell the young prostitute, My child, look at yourself and you will see everything. Because other people are like that, you are like this. You are not the only person responsible, so please do not suffer. Only by seeing with the eyes of interbeing can the young girl be freed from her suffering. What else can you offer her to help her be free? We are imprisoned by our ideas of good and evil. We want to be only good and we want to remove all evil. But that is because we forget that good is made of non-good elements. Well, I think I'll stop there. This is a really, I find this a really difficult teaching. Because it doesn't tell me exactly what to do.

[81:09]

It says that we're responsible, but it doesn't say how to exercise our responsibility. And I feel like this... I feel there's something at the bottom of my heart, to go back to what we were talking before, you know, which is, well, I want to find out how to take care of this responsibility, basically because I want to get rid of it, I think. I think my urge is, I don't want to be responsible for someone having to live a life like that. I don't want to be responsible for tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers who were bombed to death in their bunkers. So, I want Thich Nhat Hanh to tell me what it is that I'm supposed to do.

[82:24]

not so much to acknowledge the responsibility or to recognize that, in fact, this is part of existence as a whole, but so I can take care of the responsibility. I think this connects a little to what you were saying earlier. I can't remember quite what it was. Well, I think that's true. So you were doing something. I'm not saying I'm not doing something. You're asking why, what can I do, and you're doing something.

[83:29]

And I guess I think perhaps you're getting caught, like we all do, like we want to do more, we want to do it faster, we want to get it cleaned up and evened out. I think there's another thing, too, that I come up with. I think it's kind of this omnipotence, and it's like, I want to end suffering. That's a good political platform, something like that, in which we will make it so that there are no prostitutes in Manila. So this sort of thing doesn't happen. It just brings up such strong feelings about... I feel understanding, trying to understand, is doing something. It does change things. It changes the way we see aspects of ourselves and others. And I think that's doing something. And that doing doesn't have to be a physical act.

[84:31]

and seeing the world differently can make fantastic changes in someone's life. Her seeing it differently or... Her, no, no, our seeing it differently. Yeah. And then I think actions do change, but it's not like we're thinking we're having to do something. And then, of course, that relieves what you were saying. We're going to be caught in that. So then we don't have to be responsible because we've done something, so we're free of it. But I mean, there are things that we're not free of. And then I think that when one sees it and accepts it, it changes us, it changes how we experience the world, and that's doing something. I think. Well, my apologies, I think, for opening this can of worms in the last five minutes.

[85:53]

But I think it's good to think about. I already have a meeting for next Thursday But I think this is actually a good place to this is a good thing to think about You know not necessarily whether you're supposed to do something or you're not supposed to do something but What is this responsibility that we all have And How is it that these good elements and bad elements coexist? Again and again in my experience, every time I've tried to do something good, and it may have been good, it's bound to cause suffering.

[86:58]

There are suffering elements that are brought up for somebody else. And I don't think there's any way that you can't do something that's completely clear of that. So this is a very good question for how to live our lives, to understand the interpenetration of those elements, and then to try to walk in a way that uh... or talks you know without you know record recognizing those elements and and trying to walk in some way live in some way that leaves no track you know that has a lightness to it i guess that's a really good thing to uh... keep your mind coming back to so thank you all very much

[87:58]

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