Good evening. So tonight we're going to deal with the part where Dogen says When a fish swims in the ocean, there is no limit to the water, no matter how far it swims. Which comes right after what we studied last time. When a bird flies in the sky, there is no limit to the air, no matter how far it flies. However, no fish or bird has ever left its element since the beginning.

[01:08]

When the need is large, it is used largely, and when the need is small, it is used in a small way. Thus, no creature ever comes short of its own completeness. Wherever it stands, it does not fail to cover the ground. If a bird leaves the air, it will die at once. If a fish leaves the water, it will die at once. Know, then, that water is life. Know that air is life. Life is the bird, and life is the fish. Beyond these, there are further implications and ramifications. In this way, there are practice and enlightenment, mortality and immortality. or unlimited life, actually. It's an interesting word. It means various things. Immortality. But to start at the beginning, when a fish swims in the ocean, there is no limit to the water, no matter how far it swims.

[02:10]

And when a bird flies in the sky, there is no limit to the air, no matter how far it flies. However, no fish or bird has ever left its element since the beginning. What do you think about this? What's he talking about? Talking about us. Well, how is he doing that? Yeah, we can't escape our true nature. No matter how far we go, wherever we are, we have all we need. We have all we need? Wherever we are. Wherever we are. Oh yeah, we have everything we need. Sometimes we don't, but basically we do. Yes. So, ocean.

[03:15]

in water are the elements that we live in. Or the birds and fish, but we're the bird and we're the fish, of course. And the ocean and the sky are Buddha nature. Our ocean, actually. So, I remember Suzuki Roshi saying, and I've mentioned this before, he said, don't worry, wherever you are in the universe is where you're supposed to be. So there's really nothing to worry about. Nothing will ever get lost in the universe. There's no way to get lost in the universe. The only way we feel that we're lost is when we lose our body-mind.

[04:19]

So, we identify with this body and mind as myself. And then we don't like to lose that. There's some fear about losing that. Because then, what? So this is called identifying with self. So this is why Buddha Dharma is always talking about not being attached to self. Because the self does not belong to us in the beginning, from the beginning. It really does not belong to us, even though in a sense it does. We say, this is me, and this is mine, and these things belong to me, and so forth. But this is conventionally, a conventional way to identify, and this is called conventional truth, conventional reality, to identify with body, mind, and objects, and the world, and its activity.

[05:40]

That's conventional truth. But if we identify with life itself, not just with birth and death and our activity, which we must identify with, but if we only identify with our activity, we miss something. So it's, we must identify with life itself. because life itself is bigger than myself. Life is much bigger than just this body-mind. So, this is the basis of religion.

[06:45]

There's something bigger, something than just this body-mind, and this body-mind Consciousness is, of course, interactive with the whole universe. When we think about it, we eat our way through the universe. We eat our way through the world. We're constantly devouring and eating. We eat with our mouth, we eat with our eyes, we eat with our ears, we eat with our nose, we eat with our fingers. All of our senses are devouring something continuously. And then something is continuously devouring us. Everything is living off of everything else in this material world.

[07:51]

Everything is continuously living off of everything else. Inside of our body are uncountable organisms that are living off of us. devouring us. Sometimes the balance is not so good and we get sick. But because we maintain a kind of balance and equanimity, we don't think about it so much. But when we get sick, we realize I'm being eaten by something. So everything is continually living off of everything else. So in a sense, you know, we say that we are caught,

[08:59]

We pay homage to three treasures and are thankful for this food, the work of many beings, and the suffering of other forms of life. So we cause suffering with whatever we devour. But Akin Roshi, I remember, changed his verse to the offering of other forms of life. And that's a kind of interesting koan. Is it the offering or is it the suffering? Everything is actually offering itself as well, even though maybe reluctantly. But some forms are not reluctant. Some forms are actually happy to be transformed.

[10:04]

So we eat apples and oranges and we say, well, apples and oranges are happy to be reformed, are not unhappy to be transformed by us. I don't know why they're happy, but they don't seem to be unhappy to be transformed by us. But animals seem to be unhappy about it. So, but everything is being, is food for everything else. So in this world of transformations, there's nothing that belongs to us, really. Everything is given and taken. And we experience this transformation. No matter how much we try to stop the transformation, we can't do it. So the bird flies in the immense sky, and there's no end to the transformations.

[11:16]

And the fish swims in the ocean, great ocean. There's no end to the transformations. We move around in the great world and there's no end of the transformations. So everything is part of everything else and everything is contributing to everything else and everything is becoming everything else. That's our understanding. We say, well, we don't come from any place and we don't go any place. Where do we come from? And where do we go to? It's like the waves in the ocean. It looks like the waves are falling on the beach. Long wave, you know. But actually, the water is just rising and falling.

[12:21]

There's energy that's moving. energy moves and the water rises up and down and it has the feeling of the wave moving. To a certain extent the water moves, but it doesn't move the long distance. The energy moves that long distance and the water goes up and down. It doesn't come from some place, it doesn't go some place. He also says that the bird needs the air and the fish needs the water. Yes. So, is he talking about different distinctions? I mean, we need, a bird dies if it leaves the air and a fish dies if it leaves the water. So, what is the water and what is the air? To see this bigger picture, Or is that wrong view?

[13:32]

Well, we have to look at the metaphor. A bird has the form of a bird. It lives in the air. A fish has the form of a fish. It lives in the water. But air and water are actually metaphors for emptiness. everything lives in emptiness, birds and fish. So if the bird leaves the water, it will die. But the fish doesn't leave the water, no matter how far it flies. I mean, it swims. The bird doesn't leave the air, no matter how far it flies. So yes, if it leaves, it will die. But it doesn't leave. If it were to leave, it would die.

[14:33]

So the understanding is that there's no end. There's no way to leave. So the air and water, that kind of emptiness is like potentiality, isn't it? Emptiness is potentiality. I don't want to define emptiness. We have to be careful when we talk about these terms, like to say emptiness is this, like this, yes, but that characteristic, but not a definition. So emptiness is potentiality. You know, we talk about space, There are two unconditioned dharmas. One is space and the other is nirvana. Space doesn't mean air. It means that in which everything can move and transform.

[15:41]

Without space, there's no transformation. So space is not really a tangible thing, but it's matrix or the space in which it allows everything to change because it's not something that's fixed. And emptiness is the quality of everything which allows for transformation. It means no fixed identity. Emptiness means no fixed identity. It also means interdependence, because everything depends on everything else, so there's no fixed entity.

[16:43]

There's only transformation of elements, and even the elements are not fixed. This is what the Heart Sutra says. All dharmas, as well as the skandhas, are empty of their own being. That's a kind of response to one of the older schools of Buddhism, which said, of course there's no self. no inherent self, but there are dharmas which are real. But then the Mahayana came along and said, even the dharmas are not real. And that's what the Heart Sutra is basically about. Even the dharmas, even those elements which are interactive with each other, are also empty of inherent existence.

[17:50]

Well, yes, but I don't want to get too theoretical, even though this sounds theoretical, because what we're talking about is not really so much. We need to stay constantly focused on the person. Well, I was thinking of its expanding. It's generation and retreat.

[19:13]

Annihilation? Well, not annihilation, no. Annihilation is something else. It's like expansion and contraction. So if you see the forms, if we look at the world itself and how things grow and how they expand and contract, it's a model of the universe. The world is just a model of the universe. I don't know how it could be different. So something grows, something comes into existence and grows and has its life cycle, gets old and makes way and drops and becomes compost. for something else, for regeneration, and makes way for regeneration.

[20:18]

The older generation makes way for the new generation. And this is the cycle that continues over and over. So in some sense, you could say that this is like rebirth for human beings. not reincarnation, but action influence, where the former life of a person, that action influence has some regenerative quality in another existence. another personal existence, but it's not the same person. But there's some qualities that continue to contribute to the continuance of the race, of the human race.

[21:29]

But I'm not a scientist, so I don't know about genetics. Genetics probably is interesting in thinking about the regeneration of things. Anyway. So, let's go on. So, however the fish or bird has never left its element since the beginning, okay? That's interesting too because since the beginning, since what beginning? So, I think since the beginning, meaning the beginning of its life or the beginning of its life cycle or the beginning of its action influence over some long period of rebirth.

[22:41]

So then he says, when the need is large, it is used largely. And when the need is small, it is used in a small way. Thus, no creature ever comes short of its own completeness. So what is he talking about there, do you think? Some animals have a very short life, like maybe one day long. And then some animals or creatures or trees have a very long life, like thousands of years. But each of those creatures, their life is just their life. Right. All my life is long, all my life is short. Yeah. You know, there's a Zen saying that a tall bamboo is tall, a short bamboo is short. And so, a short bamboo is totally complete in itself as a short bamboo, and a tall bamboo is completely itself as a tall bamboo, and a mouse is completely itself as a mouse, and an elephant is completely itself as an elephant.

[24:02]

And no creature ever comes short of its own completeness. So when the need is large, it is used largely. So whatever one needs is according to, one can find one's completeness according to whoever we are. If we want to find our completeness, no matter who we are, we can find it, because each one of us is complete. Complete means we are all totally part of the universe. Each one of us is a total expression of the universe. You are the whole universe as yourself. I am the whole universe as myself.

[25:05]

But we tend to think, well, I'm this little piece, you know, and the universe is so vast. But actually, you are the whole universe expressed as yourself. This thing, this microphone, is the whole universe expressed as this microphone. So wherever it stands, it does not fail to cover the ground. That's interesting, cover the ground. It doesn't fail to cover the ground. So if I stand there, I cover the ground where I'm standing, right? But wherever I'm standing, I'm standing on the whole world, aren't I? The world, we limit ourselves and say, well, I'm standing on that little piece of ground.

[26:18]

But that little piece of ground covers the whole universe. It's a ball. I'm standing on top of the world. Or I'm standing on the bottom of the world. Or I'm standing on the side of the world. It doesn't matter. I'm sitting in Mexico. You may think, well, I'm in Berkeley and I'm sitting in the Berkeley Zendo on my seat. But I'm sitting in Mexico. As a matter of fact, I'm sitting in Germany. The boundaries are just something that we arbitrarily invent. They have no real meaning. They only have a conditioned meaning. a convenient meaning, but they really have no meaning at all, ultimately. So it really is true that wherever I'm standing, I'm standing in the whole world.

[27:22]

It took me a long time to figure out what Suzuki Roshi meant when he was saying, I knew what he meant, but I couldn't quite grasp it, that we think we're here at Tassajara, and we think San Francisco's over there. And in order to get to San Francisco, I have to take a trip of 150 miles to get to San Francisco. He said, but right here at Tassajara, I'm at San Francisco. And I thought, I get that, but I don't get it. But now I get it. I'm sitting right here in San Francisco. But there's another way of thinking about it, too. I have to go across the bridge to get there. That's true. But basically, there's no difference.

[28:37]

It's all one piece of world. And there's no such thing as San Francisco, and there's no such thing as Berkeley. We just call these places that for convenience. So he says, if a bird leaves the air, it will die at once, and if a fish leaves the air, it will die at once. That's true. Know then that water is life and know that air is life. Life is the bird and life is the fish. That's a wonderful expression. Know then that water is life. We say water is water, but water is life. Just in the same way that we say wherever we are, we're always in the same place.

[29:40]

Water is more than just water, water is life itself. Air is not just air, air is life itself. And life is the bird. The bird is lived. We say the bird is living, but actually the bird is lived as well. We say, I am alive, but actually I am being lived. To look at it from the other side is important. Life is living us. If we say, I have life, that's kind of backwards. We can say that, and we usually do. I am alive, but life is living me.

[30:49]

So there's no way that you can lose life. You can let go of something, but we can't really lose life. Because life has us. But if we realize life has us, we can also say, I have life. Because life allows us to do that. But we cannot be attached to that idea. Life is the bird and life is the fish. Beyond these, there are further implications and ramifications. Further steps can be taken. In this way, there are practice and enlightenment, mortality and immortality.

[31:54]

practice, and for Dogen, practice itself is enlightenment. And mortality and immortality, we think of mortality as life which has an end, and immortality is life which has no end. So it's true, there's mortality and immortality. Mortality is conventional truth, which we have to pay attention to. We live in this world of mortality, where everything is continually changing. And this is the truth. The truth of mortality is that everything is changing. That's the reality.

[33:00]

So we do live in this reality, but this real means non-substantial. This is all real. Everything here is real, totally real, which means non-substantial. And then there's the immortality, which means nothing ever is born or dies. That's absolute truth. So we need both of those. to understand both sides. If we only try to take refuge in immortality and ignore mortality, it doesn't work. And if you're only immersed in life of mortality and ignore immortality, it doesn't work.

[34:04]

So this is what we call the two truths. The reality of insubstantiality and the reality of continuous life. Okay, so now he talks about daily life. So now, he talks about daily life. He says, now, if a bird or a fish tries to reach the limit of its element before moving in it, the bird or the fish will not find its way or its place. Attaining this place, one's daily life, is the realization of ultimate reality. Genjo Koan. Attaining this way, one's daily life, is the realization of ultimate reality."

[35:20]

Genjo Koan. So Genjo Koan is defining here as the realization of ultimate reality. Since this place and this way are neither large nor small, neither self nor other, neither existing previously, nor just arising now, they therefore exist thus. Thus, if one practices and realizes the Buddha way, when one gains one Dharma, one penetrates one Dharma. When one encounters one action, one practices one action." Ah, okay. So this, this is really about how we live our life, our practice. So he says, now if a bird or a fish tries to reach the limit of its element before moving in it, this bird or fish will not find its way or its place.

[36:23]

Place is like the foundation, and way is like the movement. So to find our place, means to know exactly where we are, and to find our way means to know how to move, which direction to move in. So way is like, our place is like horizontal, and way is like vertical, where the vertical and the horizontal meet is just right where we are. that point where the vertical and the horizontal meet, where they cross, that's where we are. That's where our place and our way accord. Yeah, so I wrote down

[37:41]

Wherever you are, that is your place. And wherever you go, that is your way. So if a bird tries to reach the limit of its element before moving in it, this bird or this fish will not find its way or its place. So in other words, we don't have to know everything about where we are. Matter of fact, we find our practice in the midst of our delusion. This is what practice is, finding our way, finding our practice right in the midst of our delusion. We don't try to get rid of delusion in order to have realization, because the same energy that creates delusion is the energy that transforms into realization.

[38:44]

It's like, you know, a persimmon. Persimmon grows on the tree, a western persimmon, I'll use that. big guys that look like your heart. And then they get red. And then if you eat them before they're really soft, when you eat them when they're really soft, they're so sweet. But if you eat them before they're soft, they're astringent, right? So this astringency, you can't get, if you get rid of the astringency, you don't have the sweetness. Because the astringency, the acidity, or whatever it is, transforms into sweetness. So if you try to get, if you throw the persimmon away before it gets sweet, you lose it. And if you don't allow it to ripen, if you try to eat it before it's ripe, it's painful.

[39:56]

So, but given time and practice, the persimmon is continually transforming. And that astringency becomes very, very sweet. So, people sometimes look at Zen students and they say, Oh, these are Zen students? They have all these problems and all these faults and all this blah, [...] blah. But they don't realize that these persimmons are all ripening and someday they will all be sweet. We hope. They'll at least be complete. We're all transforming. Every one of us is transforming through practice. So if we try to get rid of our bad side, so to speak, or if we criticize each other for our bad side and can't see that that's part of the process of transformation, we should be helping each other in that process of transformation and not judging so much.

[41:15]

Not judging so much. It's wonderful, the most wonderful thing really is to see how someone who's been having so much difficulty is little by little transforms and then suddenly makes a big leap of transformation. And it's not even something they do. It's not something you do, it's something that happens to you. So the name of the practice is patience. Infinite patience. To allow that ripening to happen with each one of us. That's why I can never give up on a student. It just doesn't make sense. Because you just work with someone as long as that person is there. no matter how it is. People sometimes ask me if I get mad with students.

[42:24]

I do get some anger sometimes, but it's not something that motivates me or drives me. So he says, attaining this place, one's daily life, is the realization of ultimate reality. Attaining this way, one's daily life, is the realization of ultimate reality. When we attain this place and attain the way, then our daily life is the realization of ultimate reality. To know where we are and what we're doing. Yes. Is there any reason why we're talking about birds in the air, a bird in the air and a fish in the water?

[43:26]

Why are we just talking about a bird in the air? Or why are we just talking about a fish in the water? Why are we using two of these? Dogen talks about a bird in the air and he talks about a fish in the water. I don't question it. So he's using the sky and the air, the bird and the fish. He uses two examples. For the same thing. Yeah. So then he says, since this place and this way are neither large nor small, of course they're neither large nor small, nothing is ultimately large or small. Things are only large or small in comparison to other things.

[44:29]

So conventionally, in the world of comparative values, there's large and small. But in the realm of ultimate values, there's no such thing as large or small. A mouse is big and an elephant is small. We should know that. It just depends on who's looking at them. And this place and this way are neither self nor other. Self and other are also in the realm of comparative values. But self is other, and other is self, and self is self, and other is other. And everything is just as it is. This is a heart sutra. So neither existing previously nor just arising now.

[45:38]

So yes, whatever is, you know, that's an interesting statement. It's not, this place and this way is not existing previously. It's only it, but we say, well then it's just now. But he's saying, nor just arising now. It's neither existing previously nor just arising now. What do you think that means? Well, I don't know what it means, but what I want to say is this thing about linear time, because there's a way in which I can just almost imagine seeing time as another dualistic thing that's really a delusion. Yes.

[46:39]

Yeah, well, that's right. So he's, of course, Dogen has a whole treatise on time, on being time. And he's trying to, he's saying that it's not just the way we, the way we're conditioned to see things. right? And he said, they therefore exist thus. Thus is a kind of right now, just this way term. you know, we say, form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Form is form, emptiness is emptiness, and then things are just as they are.

[47:42]

This goes back to the first opening statement of Genjo Koan, where he talks about the four propositions of how things are, and then in the end he says, and yet flowers fall with our yearning, and weeds spring up with our chagrin. So that's just. You know, the first, those first four sentences actually can be, correspond to form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form is form, emptiness is emptiness, and everything is just as it is. this just as it is, is things just what they are, are just what they are, without, there's nothing you can say about it.

[48:45]

It's beyond. So, thus, and then he uses thus in another way. Thus, if one practices and realizes the Buddha way, when one gains, one dharma gains, is a little maybe funny word. If one encounters one dharma, you could say, when one encounters one dharma, one penetrates one dharma. When one encounters one action, one penetrates one action. In other words, to just do. this therefore existingness, and then doing, just doing. Just this and just doing. This is to just penetrate the one dharma. Dogen talks about everything, each dharma has its dharma position on each moment.

[49:53]

And that dharma position is an aspect of continuous life. So, we can penetrate to the essence through any dharma. So, what will take us to ultimate reality? Any dharma. If we totally penetrate any time, we say the whole universe is in a grain of sand. And one grain of sand contains the whole universe. If we totally penetrate one grain of sand, we can penetrate to the whole universe, we can understand the whole universe. Well, if we just do one thing thoroughly, we can, whether we realize it or not,

[50:57]

It's enlightened activity. So he says, thus if one practices and realizes the Buddha way, when one gains one dharma, one encounters one dharma, one penetrates one dharma, and when one encounters one action, one practices one action. This is called one-act samadhi. samadhi of being totally engaged with one thing without ego. Without ego is the important part. Just simply doing. This is why monastic practice allows us to do something very simple, simple practice, without thinking too much about it and without you know, trying to gain something, but simply being one with your activity, like sweeping, you know, just sweeping. When I went to Ryutakuchi, which is the Rinzai Monastery, the monks all day long just raked and swept the grounds.

[52:15]

It's a big place. All they did was rake and sweep the grounds all day long. And it was a very clean place. But they didn't do it because it was not clean. Suzuki Roshi used to say all the time, we wash the windows, not because they're dirty. You get up in the morning and brush your teeth, not because they're dirty. You sweep the floor, not because it's dirty. You sweep the floor to sweep the floor. to be doing one thing thoroughly without anything interfering, without anything in between, totally being one with the activity. You know, like the old hot dog joke. Make me one with everything. It's not a joke.

[53:19]

It's a good joke, though. I wrote something down a while ago. You know, last time I did this. Lift this up. It says, I said, we must find it. On each moment, there is no technique. There's no technique to practice. That's why we often fail, or they often feel lost or confused. We often feel lost or confused in our practice. And we feel we have a problem, but the way to go is right within that problem. This is why Suzuki Roshi is always talking about it's really good to have a problem.

[54:27]

Because when you have a problem, you have a way to go. And he said, your problem is just the right problem for you. Just the right size and everything for you, even though you may not feel that way. But if we think about it, it's so. Sometimes we can't manage our problems, that's true. But, you know, I don't think practice gives us anything. You know, we shouldn't look for any gain in practice, but if we practice and we see our problem as practice, it makes it much different than when we, it changes the nature of our problem. If we address our problem as practice, than if we simply address our problem as a problem.

[55:35]

How do I practice with this problem? How is it, you know, how is this problem practice? If we think about it in that way, it changes the nature of the problem, because then it somewhat depersonalizes the problem. It gives us some perspective, which doesn't solve the problem, but it gives us a way to be comfortable with the problem. Sometimes people will say, how come you're kind of at ease? It seems like, well, you must not have any problems, which is not so. I have lots of problems, but somehow I'm at ease with my problems.

[56:41]

Master Joshu, when he was talking to a monk, the monk was worried about being driven by time. And Joshu said, well, you're driven by the 24 hours, but I drive the 24 hours. So what we call this practice is shikantaza, just doing. To just do one thing at one time thoroughly.

[58:01]

So this is how we can practice in our daily life. This is why this is called the way of daily life. Genjo Koan, informally, is called the way of daily life. It's not some theoretical thing. It's about how we live our daily life, one moment at a time, thoroughly, thoroughly on each moment. So, wasting time is not so much what we do, but how we approach our life. How to bring our life to life, moment by moment. That's practice of Genjo Koan. And how we bring our life to life is to light up our space so that, and this is how we help people.

[59:03]

We help people by just being ourself. So Suzuki Roshi used to say, when you are you thoroughly, then Zen is Zen. To just be thoroughly yourself. and to be totally engaged with one dharma. One dharma may include many dharmas, but basically without self, without ego. This is also called samadhi. The samadhi of G.G.U.

[60:18]

Samadhi. Samadhi of self-joy, actually, and our self-fulfillment on each moment, and encouraging the self-fulfillment of others. So that's why we practice together, so that our samadhi will touch other people and we touch each other and encourage each other. That's why we practice together, that's sangha. I think I can finish this, unless you have a question.

[61:41]

I have about 15 minutes. So then Dogen talks about this little story. He says, Priest Paoche, who was a Dharma heir of Matsu, of Makushan, was fanning himself. It must have been a summer night in China. And he was fanning himself. And a monk approached and asked, Sir, the nature of wind is permanent, and there is no place it does not reach. Why then must you still fan yourself? Although you understand the nature of wind is permanent, the master replied, you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere. What is the meaning of it reaching everywhere? Asked the monk. The master just fanned himself. The monk bowed with deep respect. So priest Paoche of Makushan was fanning himself. The monk approached and asked, sir, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach.

[62:49]

Why then must you fan yourself? So this is, yes. I think there might be a page. Oh, did I miss something? Since the place is here. Since the place, oh, I'm sorry. Darn it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for the correction. It's okay to jump ahead. No, I don't want to. I'll do that during sashin. Since the place, but I appreciate you bringing me back. I kind of thought there was something missing. Since the place is here, and the way leads everywhere, okay, so here we have place and way again, right? The place is here, and the way leads everywhere. In other words, it's very interesting, you know, when he sits us in, this is the place, and we come down to just this place. And then, after 40 minutes, we get up, we do service, and we leave the zendo, and you can go anywhere.

[63:54]

You can just, because you're a totally free person, you have nothing holding you except that everything comes back and you have all your obligations and commitments, right? But basically, because you come back to zero, you can just go anywhere. Since the place is here and the way leads everywhere, The reason the limits, this is very difficult, the reason the limits of the knowable are unknowable is simply that our knowledge arises with and practices with the absolute perfection of the Buddhadharma. So the reason the limits of the knowable are unknowable, you can't know the limits of the knowable. They're unlimited. Our knowledge arises with and practices with the absolute perfection of the Buddhadharma.

[65:03]

Then he said, do not practice thinking that realization must become the object of one's knowledge and vision and be grasped conceptually. So it's not necessary to understand in order to practice. It's good to understand, but you can practice without understanding it. And if you had to understand it before you could practice, you'd never be able to practice. So our practice, unlike many other Buddhist practices, is simply jump in. We talked about that before. There's no preparation. You just jump in. And then you go through the grind, stretching out your knees and things like that.

[66:33]

But it's the same ocean for everyone. You simply jump into the ocean. So it's not, you don't have to learn something. And there's really no technique. This is why, you know, Soto Zen practice, or at least our Soto Zen practice, is so amorphous feeling. That's why formality is important. Because if there wasn't the form, it would be so amorphous that you wouldn't know what you were doing at all. Even though you may not know anyway. The formality really keeps it together. So even though the attainment of realization is immediately manifest, its intimate nature is not necessarily realized. Some may realize it, and some may not.

[67:36]

So he says it's not necessary. Even though it's great to realize it, you can practice without realizing it, and your practice is just as valid. Okay, Dean? Is that sort of like you don't have to know something to know it? Or you don't have to know something to have the knowledge? Well, I don't know what you mean. Well, you know, there are two things. We know something by just knowing. And then we know something by studying. So there are two wheels. One is the wheel of study and the other is the wheel of practice. So the wheel of practice is swimming in the water.

[68:39]

The wheel of study is learning about swimming. You don't have to learn about swimming. We just throw you in the water and then you flail around and find your way. So practice is knowing, even though you may not know. You're practicing in the realm of knowing, even though you may not know. So you wake up in the water, but it may take a while for you to wake up in the water, even though you're swimming. It's like you're doing it, but you don't know you're doing it. Or you may not know you're doing it, even though you're doing it. So, but you had your hand up. Yeah. It's hard to understand. No. Jai Tsu Chi Sho Buddha was set still for several kalpas, right?

[70:07]

Without becoming enlightened. But the reason why is because he's already enlightened. I'd hate to have to explain this to you, but he didn't become enlightened. Because enlightenment is his nature. He didn't get anything, is the point. He's okay. He was okay. If he was sitting for two kalpas, he was okay. This realization is not enlightenment. Yes it is. It is. It's realizing your enlightenment. Right, so some may realize it and some may not. But whether you realize it or not, you're practicing in the realm of enlightenment. But if you say, oh yeah, I'm enlightened now, that's not enlightenment.

[71:11]

So both realization and ignorance are kind of the same. Realization and ignorance are kind of the same. Because when you have realization, you realize your ignorance. And when you're simply ignorant, you may not have realization, but you're on the same level. The enlightened person and the ignorant person are on the same level. even though we think of the enlightened one as enlightened. So you can practice within the realm of enlightenment without realizing it. Some may realize it and some may not. But it's good if you can realize it. I mean, I think it's good. Sometimes it's not so good. I talk about Suzuki Roshi all the time, but I remember one time he said, you should be very careful about wanting enlightenment, because when you get it, it may not be something that you want.

[72:30]

You may not like it. So we simply practice to practice, you know? And then realization is a kind of gift. So the main thing, if we think that enlightenment is the goal, then we have a problem. Because then we think, well, enlightenment is better than ignorance. But that doesn't mean that, you know, it's like the koan. If Joshua asked Nonsense about what is the way, and Nonsense said, well, he said, Joshi said, should I go after it or should I, or not?

[73:40]

And so Nansen said, well, if you go after it, you stumble past. And if you don't go after it, you'll never get there. So that's a koan. Should I go after it or not go after it? If I do go after it, then I have a problem. If I don't go after it, I have a problem. That's why it's a koan. you have to be very careful. If you go after it, then you think, well, what I'm doing now doesn't mean much. When I get enlightened, then what I do will mean something. Or who I am will be somebody. But if I don't do that, then nothing will happen. And if I do do that, I'll be creating a problem because I won't be present where I am.

[74:42]

When we think about gaining enlightenment, it takes away the presence of where you are now or the value of where you are now. The value of where you are now is it. That's why your problem is so valuable. That's why the way you think you're so ignorant is so wonderful. Just the way you are. This is the place. This is it. But we think, well, when I'm enlightened, I won't have any more problems. That's delusion. We have the same problems when we're enlightened. That's why just practice, never mind about getting enlightened or trying to gain enlightenment. But at the same time, we do want to do that. So we have to do that without trying to do it.

[75:43]

So practice itself is a big koan. This is called genjo koan. Yeah, that's right. And that's why you sit under the tree for seven days to commemorate that. But you don't try to get enlightenment. Well, he did and he didn't. He just sat. Yes, that's right. That's what you do. But he was going to sit until whatever happened happened. But he didn't know what enlightenment was until he had a realization of enlightenment. Nobody knows what Buddha did.

[76:48]

Nobody knows exactly what was going through Buddha's mind. So there's, you know, It's not that there's no enlightenment, and it's not that you should not seek enlightenment, right? But if you seek enlightenment, you leave the place where you are. So, when you find enlightenment, you find, oh, this is where I am. So that's what Buddha did. He sat down and didn't go anywhere. This is where I am with everything. That's what he realized. This is where I am with everything. This is the way, and this is the place. This is the place. There's no other place. There is no other place, and this place covers the whole ground. And this is the way.

[77:51]

The way unfolds from here. That's what he realized. whether he was seeking enlightenment or not seeking enlightenment. By seeking enlightenment, he sat down and said, I'm not going anywhere. That was the beginning of his enlightenment. So I'm not saying don't seek enlightenment or don't not seek enlightenment. If you say, well, didn't Shakyamuni do that? It's like you're taking one side and forgetting the other side. If you seek after it, you stumble past. If you don't seek after it, nothing happens. So you have to remember that if you don't seek after it part, as well as the seeking after it,

[78:56]

It's seek without seeking. Just practice. That's what Shakyamuni did.

[79:09]

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