I'm going to read you a little reflection on Zazen. I mean, excuse me, on Zazen by a practitioner of old. You remember that? Well, I don't remember the person, but I remember. It's a great, great story. Okay. Day and night in a chilly hall The little group sits cross-legged. I try to forget myself, press on the task. But the week goes by without enlightenment. Knees aching and tired of making the effort. A woman asks this morning, why am I doing this? I know better than to try to answer When I open my mouth, it will be for lunch. I read that to you last session, I think.

[01:11]

Well, I'm a little soulless. Someone else understands. I want to address Ross's koan that we brought up yesterday. If you remember, he said he knew two people. One person, when he sits zazen, gets very angry. And the other person, when he sits zazen, It feels very light and joyous, something like that. It's given a reprieve from the tribulations of life off the cushion. Yes, free of the tribulations of life off the cushion. So, it's not a matter of which one was right or wrong. It's a matter of... What is it a matter of, Ross?

[02:19]

Well, your response yesterday, as I remember, was they just sit more zazen. And the person sitting on the cushion sits a lot of zazen, sits daily. And I was trying to find some way to offer some hope off the cushion. What can be done off the cushion to integrate the two? And they know it's about integrating on and off the cushion. But it's still just, it pained me just to hear that lament. And the duality of... Yeah. The problem, as I've been thinking about it, is not about Zazen. The problem is one person is an angry person, and the other person is a person who does not carry around anger. So when you sit in Zazen, whatever you've been carrying around comes up in Zazen, because you have nothing to block what you're carrying around.

[03:31]

So everything that, who you are, so to speak, if I am an angry person, if I am carrying around a lot of anger, then that's what comes up for me. And so it's not about zazen, it's simply about letting go of whatever it is that's suppressing So some of us have an angry disposition, someone has a loving disposition, someone has a deluded disposition, someone has a greedy disposition. So this is what will come up for you, and you can direct the light of your mind, of your consciousness, to whatever it is that you're carrying around with you. So if you don't want to see your anger, don't say Zazen.

[04:36]

But that doesn't work, because it will come out some other way. You'll see it anyway. So Zazen is a mirror of your mind. And Zazen is a mirror of your mind, and Sangha is a mirror of your mind. People often think, people don't understand me. But everybody understands you very well. And the more you think that people don't understand you, the more they understand you. You can't really hide anything. When you're practicing in the world, and you're not too intimate with people, they see you, but it doesn't matter so much. But when you're close, And practicing every day with the same people, nothing's hidden. And everyone is a mirror for you. So the way people respond and react to each other, you can bounce off of those around you to find out who you are.

[05:51]

And to learn things about yourself that you don't ordinarily allow yourself to see. So that's the treasure, one of the treasures and one of the difficulties of sangha practice. So what I said about this person who was angry, he shouldn't stop sitting sadhana, he should sit more sadhana. Until finally, he said, why am I so angry? Because as we said, as everybody knows, the anger that we direct toward others is not necessarily caused by the object of our anger. Anger and resentment are carried around for often in our back.

[07:03]

So worry, anger, resentment, we pack a load of it in our back. And it's a weighty thing. And so often we can be free of that and we can stand up straight. A lot of back problems are caused by that. wanting help to help my friend off the cushion because I can't help him on the cushion because he does Zazen.

[08:11]

So when you said it's not about Zazen, it actually is about Zazen as far as getting to the root of the problem. But there's nothing you can really offer other than the ear for the off-the-cushion process. Put the two together. Good things come from Zazen, but we don't sit Zazen to make good things happen. That's a very important point. We just sit Zazen and see what happens. Well, the subject is Zazen, and recognizing that Well, yes. That's right. So you can help people.

[09:14]

I understand what you're saying because everyone has to ultimately help themselves. But we can help people to help themselves. And I think Alan's got a point that some people will benefit by some therapy. Sometimes we feel that Zazen, well, you know, Zazen does help. But if we sit Zazen to help, then that may not be helpful. What's interesting about that story you read of the person who is awake until lunch to open his mouth or her mouth, is that in the environment, he has this enlightenment experience, meal, he's keeping his mouth closed because he can't really answer for the other person about why they're sitting, what are we doing here?

[10:19]

So it's kind of an ironic sort of awakening that I don't know if the person was actually aware of it or not, just waiting for the meal. He awakened. Well he said, I don't have enlightenment. Right, is it a humble thing or is it actually a feeling of, I don't get it? It's not a matter of getting it or not getting it. No, him. It's not a matter of him getting it or not getting it. When he says that, it's, I'm just here. Yes, and so, I'm just here, next thing is the meal. Right? Yeah, that's an enlightenment poem. I'm just here. That's all. So that's not it. I'm just here. The other one, the person who sits us and feels that he's left the burdens of the world behind, could also be a problem.

[11:29]

Because maybe he doesn't want to go back and face those problems. there's this release of being kind of, it's been on hold for a while, or it's in neutral. And the thoughts that arise of the pain and suffering, they're not being acted on in some way, so there's actually, it doesn't become an obsessive thing, it's just sitting thoughtless. So it doesn't act on his stuff. Right. And so we talked about, you know, I said, whatever you choose to do, you're creating karma. And just accepting that should be, I was laughing, should be enough for you to kind of carry on in whatever way you want to go. But you want to make the right decision to create less karma. But ultimately we're bound to suffer because we're alive. About 15 years ago you talked about the anger you felt toward or about Richard Baker and described it as a hot iron ball that you were trying to swallow.

[13:09]

I'm wondering whether you ever managed to swallow it. Well, I swallowed the ball and cooled it off. So you no longer feel that way? Well, when something happens, that's one thing, and then how you deal with it is another. So you no longer feel it? It's complicated. It's complex. It's a complex situation because there are levels of understanding and levels of feeling and levels of consequences. Very complex. I can feel one way about this and another way about that and another way about this and another way about that.

[14:17]

So to say, how do you feel about it? It's too difficult. So what I expressed 15 years ago was what I was feeling at that moment. So you want to know how I feel at this moment? Well, I feel that's all... I hate to use this term, behind us. That's the excuse, you know, what politicians use when they want to wiggle out of their problems. Let's put it behind us. But it's gone and time and circumstances have moved everything for 15 years, and I don't think about it much.

[15:18]

I do not carry anything around with me. I don't carry anger or resentment or anything around with me. I don't want to burden myself that way. So I think that's what you mean, that I don't carry it around. As a matter of fact, I let go of it pretty quickly after it happened. As a matter of fact, I don't like to talk about somebody behind their back when they're not here, but I will a little bit. When Richard Baker, who was the Adventist and sinner, I fell from grace, as you might put it, by manipulating the Zen Center and the students and so forth. Up to that point, I was his biggest critic as a student and as a priest.

[16:34]

And when he fell, I had already reconciled myself to what was happening. I could see what was happening and I said, I can't manipulate this. His actions will create karma in which he will have consequences and when that the only one that was defending him, even though I was his biggest critic. So, I was very careful not to become attached to my feelings and emotions and critical mind.

[17:42]

And at the same time, to just see clearly what was happening. When many other students, their lives were turned around. My life was not turned around by it. I wouldn't be surprised if part of why you were able to do that is because you were willing to on some level suffer the difficult feelings ahead of time. And in our conversation yesterday and what we're talking about now, it seems to me that a really important element with very difficult emotions is being willing to be very intimate with them. Yeah. To not just push them away in a form of letting go. Oh, I'm not going to be angry. I'm going to drop that. But actually to be willing to keep it for a while. to keep it, to be familiar with it, to really understand yourself in relationship with it, and then it doesn't grab you.

[18:47]

Yes, well of course. But there's also, you know, not to be caught by your to have your feelings and your emotions and your understanding and to be able to rise above that so that you're not turned around by it. That's right, but you have to know it in order for it not to catch you by surprise. Yes, that's right, because if you push it away it will turn around and catch you by the butt. It will, yes. Yeah, what I heard yesterday when you told Ross they're the same thing. Yes. What came to me was, one is aversion and one is attachment. Yes, one is aversion and one is attachment.

[19:50]

And so, those are two things that... and we can have aversion and attachment to Siddhi Zazen as well. Yes, that's right. You can have aversion... I used to think that you couldn't have... Isn't that when people really get off into emptiness and they kind of get that sickness? Yes, it's where you're stuck on the cushion and you don't want to get off and go to work. I remember when Suzuki Roshi was around, people wanted to just keep sitting. Zazen, we were doing Kinyan. And he'd say, no, when everybody gets off the tan to do kin-hin, you get off the tan to do kin-hin too. You don't stay on the tan doing zazen when everybody else is doing kin-hin.

[20:52]

Whatever we're all doing, we're all doing. Otherwise, you're just feeding your ego by being an individual. This isn't Japanese culture, but it's Japanese Zen. And there's something wonderful about that. And in our American Zen practice, we come up against this all the time. We come up against the, I want to do what everybody else is not doing. And I have a lot of sympathy for that. That's called Zen training. Not running away when you have that, and being able to face the criticism, and refine your life, given that problem.

[21:55]

And then we have to look at, well, what do I want to do that is mine? So the problem is, Zazen is not about being mine. Practice is not about me and mine. It's about letting go of me and mine. And that's what makes practice difficult. It's not the pain in your legs. It's the me and mine. A lot of hands. Alan, cheers. One thing that's interesting, which I really appreciate about our style, is just that frame of mind. It's like, when it's time for Kenyan, everybody gets up and does Kenyan. when it's the end of the day, everybody goes up and goes to bed. In other traditions, particularly Rinzai-based traditions, you have this peculiar conundrum of enforced optional zazen.

[23:00]

It's optional. The day is done. But if you want to, you do yaza, which is night sitting, which you have to do. But that's a different slant. And I'm not exactly criticizing it. There's another way that you can lose your ego in that context. But it's just a different approach. The thing is about that, about yaza, You don't have to do it, but they're doing it and I'm not. It's worse. I'm a weakling and the strong ones are doing it and I'm the weakling. That kind of thing I don't like. There is a motivation, the motivation behind it, the motor that's generating that is also like

[24:05]

the striving for enlightenment. That's what's driving it. Yes, and that's what's different about our practice, is that we're not trying to gain anything. And it's not just a personal struggle. Everybody has to do it personally, but it's also structural. So, and then, you know, when everybody sits down to eat, even if you don't want to eat, you sit down and open your bowls. That was always our practice. So everybody does everything together. Very Japanese. And we say, well, we're Americans. But Americans are Japanese. and Japanese are Americans. I don't buy cultural divisions so much.

[25:13]

I think everybody should practice with everybody else, everybody else's way. I really think we should. When you practice in someone else's style or way, you let go of something. When you go to some other place to practice, you should let go of the way you practice at home and just practice the way they practice there. You say, well, you know, we do it this way. Whenever we go to another place, we think they're doing it wrong because they're doing it different. We get very attached to our own way of doing things, which is OK, but that's attachment. We should do everything the way we I'll do it together, but not be attached to it. And when we go someplace else, we just let go of that and practice the way they practice. Otherwise, you know, we're always criticizing everybody else.

[26:16]

This is the problem with religion. We're always criticizing everybody else every time we go someplace, because they're not doing it right. But it's all arbitrary anyway. But our practice is, to do everything together, as one person. That's the practice. We practice, and what we're doing, Sashin, we're doing Sashin as one person. That's why, ideally, nobody comes or goes. Ideally, to do Sashin, everybody arrives Nobody comes and goes, and we all leave. But we can't do that, because we're not in a position to do that. So people come and they go, we make adjustments, and I've got this, and my dog, and all that. And even I do that. So that's called accommodating to the situation.

[27:19]

So there's the ideal and the actual. In the ideal, we all do it this way. But in actuality, We can drive a truck through the hole. Is that Ron's hat? No. You said that you defended Richard Baker. You said you defended him and you were his biggest critic. I never heard, I heard about the critic part before, but I didn't and people were so focused on Baker's badness, so to speak, they couldn't see anything to defend? Or was your defending something else? Well, here's the way it went. I was, I was, I was built

[28:24]

priest's dharma transmission after Suzuki Roshi died. But he never would do that. And everybody was angry at him about that. But I thought he should give me dharma transmission. So one time he said, I would like to do that. So I started doing dharma transmission with him. And I thought, well, this is really what should happen, because he knows that I don't like him. Not like, but I don't meet face-to-face with him. We're not like this, we're like that. That's a wonderful, noble gesture. Not that he liked me, but that we're in the dharma together and he should be doing this. And then, when this thing happened, He said to me, when this thing happened, I could see how everybody was ganging up on him.

[29:43]

And I thought, I tried to help him somehow. Not easy to do, but I wanted to help him somehow. But he said to me, you're not helping me enough. I don't know if we should continue to do this. And I said, OK. I just let go of it. I was willing to go through with him, with all this, just out of compassion. But I said, OK, and I let go of it. But I did feel compassion for him, and I tried to help him as much as I could. I said, one time I said, if you just go to the Sangha and apologize to the Sangha and we have a ceremony, everybody will participate in the ceremony of repentance and we can make things start working again."

[30:52]

And he thought about that and instead of doing that he said, I'm going to walk to Pesahar. So he started to walk to Pesahar. at the beach, you know, in the woods. And so he got rescued. And that was the worst thing, him getting rescued by his friends, because he could never get to the bottom. And to this day, he's never really been able to get So you weren't defending his actions, you were just trying to help him get out? Yeah, I wasn't defending his actions at all. I was just trying to help him to... Okay, that's semantic, I understand. Yes, to reconcile whatever needed to be done instead of running away. Thank you. And I also helped my Zumi Roshi. But my Zumi Roshi, I could help. Because I said, don't do what Dick did, you know?

[31:58]

he was able to reestablish himself. James, you have another question about that? Yeah, I went through a very difficult and unpleasant divorce about 12 years ago. About 12 years ago I went through a very difficult and unpleasant divorce. And I still have feelings of resentment about it.

[33:26]

And they blow, but they just don't seem to go away. Well, it won't go away. You have to see into it. You have to see what it really is and decide if that's the way you want to have control of your life. We turn over control to various parts of our psyche. And then we have resentment, we're turning over our control of our life to resentment. And we're turning our control of our life over to whatever. So, practicing the Dharma is to free yourself from being a slave to what is controlling you.

[34:29]

That's what the Dharma is about. else, forgiveness is the key. But forgiveness means losing control, letting go of control. Letting go of that control in your life. And so then if you're loyal to resentment, if you feel like, but I'm loyal to my resentment, how can I let it go? Then I'll be disloyal. But you may be disloyal to your resentment, but you'll be loyal to your true self. You just switch loyalties. Yeah, I just wanted to say, like, I've had a lot of that resentment that felt like it couldn't let it go.

[35:33]

It was always there. And the thing that helped me in that is kind of this incredibly wounded child, and coming out, and so, and it was soothed by the Metta, and it's sort of like, it still arouses sometimes, but I say, oh, okay, you're upset about something, so I direct Metta again, so it's kind of a helpful thing, something's bothering me, so, or, you know, so that's, you know, that was helpful. Metta comes in various forms. So forgiveness is a form of metta. It's a way of freeing yourself. It's not necessarily about the other person.

[36:35]

It doesn't mean that now everything is hunky-dory with the other person. It means that you have freed yourself. from that restraint. It was interesting at the Upaya chaplaincy program last, I guess in August, and Bernie Glassman was there. And he was teaching and somebody asked him about forgiveness, which has always been a a slippery question for me. And his response was quite interesting in that he basically said he didn't understand forgiveness and wasn't sure about his capacity to forgive.

[37:43]

But what he did as a practice was, for example, he does these retreats at Auschwitz, and that's on a scale that he doesn't feel like he could forgive. And yet, what he does is he keeps turning towards that suffering, and that circumstance, and not avoiding the circumstance. So it's an interesting perspective. I think it's a long discussion on what is forgiveness, but I'm not sure that it's at odds with what you're saying. But I think there's a kind of objectification of forgiveness, just like there's an objectification of letting go. We should be able to let go. Without understanding, it's got to have a turning towards.

[38:48]

I think the subjective journey is correct. Can you say a little more? Yeah, it's you do it. Objective means there's some space between you and the object. Subjective means there's no division between you and the object, because you become the subject. You become one with... When you cut the tie, Everyone has freedom to go their own way. So... But it depends upon one's action. One has to take the action to cut. That's subjective. Right. Yeah, you have to do something. It's like cutting your own umbilical cord that connects you to that suffering. Well, this is like... There's always a problem when two people are lovers and one person says, I no longer love you.

[39:58]

Goodbye. And then the person that's left has the problem. I mean, they have the problem being left. And then they have a certain kind of suffering, which is different from the suffering of the person that left. And because they're still tied to the person that left, So they're tied to the person that left, but the person that's left is no longer there. So that's suffering. That's the cause of their suffering. So sometimes I say you cannot stop your suffering until you cut the cord. Because as long as there's a little string, it pulls and you suffer. As long as there's a little attachment. So you, the one that's left, has to cut the cord of attachment. And that often involves forgiveness. And then you have free freedom.

[41:01]

So forgiveness means having your freedom. That's basically what it means. And it's sometimes the hardest thing to do, because you don't want to do that. You want the lover to come back. The lover's not coming back. It's like cutting off your arm when the boulder falls on it. Remember that guy? The only thing I can do is cut off the arm in order to free myself. It's just a boulder. It's not even a person. It's easier to free you, the boulder. To me, the hardest part of forgiveness is to accept my own part in the interaction. And that's what, for me, in some cases, has kept me from forgiving. Because I would have to. I would have to know that I was the other condition in the arrangement.

[42:04]

That's right. It's a two-way street. I'm remembering a practice that John Mogey shared that he did for his mother, who he had a lot of anger towards. I don't think he would mind me sharing it, because he talked about it publicly. But he did a practice where, for some period of time, he was doing bows every day to an altar with a picture of her and chanting. And I was inspired by that. So I took that up with something in my own life, someone, some person I need to let go of. And it was tremendously helpful just to have that dedicated time and space and do those vows, I just think a lot of times otherwise we just, it's like we have to create the opportunity to actually practice forgiving. And otherwise it sort of falls away or it doesn't happen. That's right, yes. To actually move, do something with your body.

[43:06]

You know, sometimes I'll have people offer incense and have to do a ceremony like that. Forgiveness. Because it's something that the whole person does. And it's just freeing yourself. The hardest thing, you know, we all want our freedom. But we don't necessarily want to give up anything for it. There's somebody behind James. Oh, hi. I know for me rejection is the most painful emotion, being rejected, I'll preemptively reject people, you know, so they can't reject me, that kind of thing, but I'm wondering, you know, when I really sort of have that rejected feeling, I always go, well there has to be, how could there be no self, because nothing emphasizes self more for me than rejection.

[44:10]

That's right, the self, I mean, rejection brings up the self. The self comes into being when rejection happens. So it's not like there's no self. It's the self itself is not a self. There is a self, but it's a creation. We create it. And it's created out of ignorance, ill will, and greed, desire. Desire creates the self and takes all these elements and makes a self out of it. We call it Joe or Mary or something. But it's not a substantial self, it's a self that we create.

[45:14]

That which feels is the self. So it's not that if you say there's no self, that's not quite right. If you say there is a self, that's not quite right. There's somewhere in between is and is not, because the self is something that's always being established. And we can inflate it or keep it small. We can use it or it will use us. So we have to have a sense of self. But the sense of self gets out of hand, so to speak. And when we're self-centered, then things hurt us more easily. When we're self-centered, we tend to grasp at things and cry when they're gone and so forth.

[46:25]

But that's our so-called delusive mind that creates that sense of self. And we all have it. So when we're practicing, the effort in our practice is not to let that self control us. we are that is controlling. So instead of being self-centered, we step over and become Buddha-centered. So Buddha is at the center instead of a self, a personality. That's what practice is about, is moving over, moving over to the Buddha side rather than the self-centered side. about it as being, they say it differently, slightly differently.

[47:27]

There's no separate self. That the mistake we make is thinking that we're separate. It's not that there is no personality in us. Of course there's all these feelings, but there's an example of not separate. Someone rejects you, there's this response that's showing your connection with and how you're created by everything around you. But it's helpful to me to remember the idea that this self that I feel so strongly is there in relationship with everything else. It's created by everything, like Thich Nhat Hanh says, everything that is not me is what I'm composed of. So the hurt is real. And it's not your fault. That's a wonderful aspect of this idea that it's no separate self.

[48:31]

What's happening is not your fault. The idea that it's my fault is really based on the idea that I'm separate. The whole universe is happening in you. Including the hurt. Alright. Who's back there? Oh, you were just scratching your nose. I wanted to comment on the suffering aspect and the loyalty to your suffering. And with me, and actually something happened with Greg in a practice discussion that was helpful to me, forgiveness with my father who, you know, I was sitting there going, this person caused so much suffering. You know, they don't deserve to be forgiven. You know, that's pretty much what I've been carrying around. And because I couldn't comprehend how anyone could behave this way, you know, and Greg just said he was lost.

[49:38]

And somehow that got through. So, in spite of all the effort or whatever ways I've been trying to figure out how to let go of this, Yes. That helps. It really helps to have understanding. But what happens is mostly we get up emotionally. So our emotions go to the forefront and our understanding is hidden. And when we really understand what's behind everyone's out the aggression. And as soon as we're backed against the wall, then we come out fighting, or else we acquiesce. So be careful not to back people against the wall.

[50:43]

And so we're fighting people's emotions all the time. And we're scared of their emotions and what they're going to do if we do this or that. But we have to get behind and see, well, where is this person suffering? And what's causing this problem? That's really good. But you can see, yes, my father used to hit me all the time and blah, blah, blah. And it's not different from me. As a matter of fact, it is me. We're all the same. But we take different modes of expressing ourselves according to our situation. And there we are. But it's best to try to understand. When we can have understanding in the forefront, then we can rise above all the emotion.

[51:49]

without rejecting it. So, you can't be a teacher if you get caught by emotions, by people's emotions. You have to respond to them, but reacting is... you get lost, you get hooked. the rapids, and there's another boat coming down the rapids. And you say, it's heading towards you. You say, hey, hey, you're going to hit us. Hey, you know, turn, turn. And they're walking by, and there's nobody in the boat. The boat's just coming down without anybody in it. But we waste a lot of effort thinking that we can

[52:56]

trying to change things.

[53:02]

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