It's hard to cut the silence. It's like cutting the first piece of a cake. My name is Grace. I also have another name, Jill. If I don't seem like a Grace, that may be why. I prepared a lot of handouts, and I don't know if everybody got a handout, but I have more. The handouts say essence of Buddhism class. Well, the way is basically perfect. The instructor is not. It should say the way, the essence of Zen class. So if anybody needs another handout, we'll just pass them around. I wonder if before we start, it might be good for us to just go around and people say their names, so we get a little personal. I think sometimes in our practice here, we go for long periods of time without talking to anyone, and it's nice to have the opportunity to meet people. Wait, we've got Steve.

[01:02]

Steve. Leah. Natalie. Ann. Lois. Martha. Julie. Marya. Joyce. Jill. Sharon. Chris. Ben. Well, it's nice to meet all of you. And so now there's another Jill here, so I'll be grace tonight. Try to be graceful. Thanks. In terms of class business, I hope everyone has signed the list and given Ross the checks. And if not, you can do it another time. Also, I'm going to read out the way you will be evaluating this class at the end of the three classes, so you can think about that before I start and correct me if I'm not making any sense. Did the class meet your expectations and needs?

[02:06]

What aspects were most useful to you? What was the least useful? Did Grace communicate the material effectively? Was the lecture material well prepared? Did it seem relevant? What suggestions do you have for improvement of this course? Would you be interested in future classes focusing on some of these texts? And did the class support your practice? So those are all questions that we'll ask of you before the end of the last class. As was listed in the article in the newsletter, this is a class about what Zen is and a little bit about how it got to be that way, because we come out of a very broad and old practice, and there's a kind of flavor to Zen that's a little bit different and catches our attention. But I want to go back, before we start in the Zen flavor, and chant this Metta Sutta, which is one of the very early sutras that the Buddha supposedly wrote, and that ancient Buddhists chanted in a different language.

[03:17]

This is what should be accomplished. I hope you'll join me. This is what should be accomplished by the one who is wise, who seeks the good and has obtained peace. Let one be strenuous, upright and sincere, without pride, easily contented and joyous. Let one not be submerged by the things of the world. Let one not take upon oneself the burden of riches. Let one not desire great possessions even for one's family. Let one do nothing that is mean or that the wise would reprove. May all beings be happy. May they be joyous and live in safety. All living beings, whether weak or strong, in high or middle or low realms of existence, small or great, visible or invisible,

[04:23]

born or to be born, may all beings be happy. Let no one deceive another, nor despise any being in any state. Let none by anger or hatred wish harm to another. Even as a mother, at the risk of her life, watches over and protects her only child, so with a boundless mind should one cherish all living things, seducing love over the entire world, above, below, and all around, without limit. So let one cultivate an infinite goodwill towards the whole world, standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all one's waking hours, One who is made perfect will never again know rebirth in the cycle of creation of suffering for ourselves or others.

[05:41]

Well, that's a lot to say. How does it make people feel to chant those words? What's it like? How does it feel? I like it. It feels good. It feels fair, I guess. It feels fair? It feels a little melodious to me, too. This sort of goes along, has that feel to it. And I think that a lot of the early Buddhist texts, of course, in the language that they were written, were made for chanting. That was the way they remembered them. This is from about 500 BC. But there's some mystery here in how we get from the Metta Sutta to Zen practice. And Ross and I are going to act out a little Zen dialogue. And we'll have our narrator start. The dialogue with the Hermit Kuyin.

[06:46]

And the layman Pong. The layman visited the Hermit Kuyin. Who are you? The layman raised his staff. Isn't that the highest activity? The layman threw down his staff. You only know the highest activity. You don't know that you're unaware of the highest matter. What is the highest matter? The layman picked up his staff. Don't be so crude. What a pity you strain to make yourself ruler. A man of uniform activity has no need to pick up a mallet, a razor whisk, nor does he use wordy replies. If you were to meet him, what would you say? What would you do? Where would I meet him? Kuyin grabbed hold of him. And? Lehman pong? Is that what you do, said Lehman, and spat right into his face.

[07:49]

Is that what you do? first. You lowered your hook into flaming water where there's no fish, and nowhere to look for one either. I'm laughing at your chagrin. Kuyin, the Chen elder too, how pitiable you are. You've been spat on, and now are ashamed to look at me. There's a little bit of difference. I mean, this sounds almost like a rap, you know, between a couple of buddies on the street, whereas we have this very elevated beginnings of Buddhism. We somehow evolve to this abbreviated, concise, and somewhat rough, you know. I had to promise Ross I wouldn't spit. It was bad enough that he had to be put down as pitiable. But it seems to be that there's some question about where the compassion is in this dialogue.

[08:53]

I mean, does anybody have a reaction to what this might mean? Or is it just mysterious? Remember, I still have many loads in here. Ideas? There are no wrong answers. There are no wrong answers, that's right. Well, we have two recorded expressions of Buddhist literature, one proclaiming the way of compassion and the other one celebrating spitting on your buddy, as if in a rap song. The first one, as I mentioned, is classical Buddhist doctrine, approximately 500 BC. The second is early Chan teaching in China, approximately 800 AD. So we do have 1,300 years to play with, so we got from one to the other. As some of you might know and some of you might not know, Chan is the Chinese word for Zen and it means awakening to one's true self. So the class for tonight is basically going to describe how we moved from these kinds of sutras to the one that Ross and I sang.

[10:00]

And then later on we'll talk about some of the teachers and the writings and how we practice this. So in order to start at the beginning of how this evolution occurred, we'll start with the life of the Buddha. And please raise your hand if you've heard the story of how the Buddha started this way. Everybody has heard it just about. Well, we'll just mention... I'll let everybody chime in. It's like, and then what happened Goldilocks? Okay, most of you know the story of the Buddha who was a prince and had everything he could possibly want. And there was a prediction made when he was born that he was either going to be a fantastic ruler or he was going to be a wise man. And his parents definitely preferred the former. And there's another part of this, which is he was raised by his mother's sister. His mother died very shortly after his birth. Through the course of his adventures in the palace, he had some exposure to suffering, illness, old age, and death, which had been hidden from him in the palace, but he kind of snuck around so that he got views of this.

[11:16]

And when he saw these things, it upset him very deeply. And he decided that he needed to come to understand the meaning of life. And so he left his palace and he left his new bride and his brand new sleeping infant to find his way and to find the way. And he was not the first to meditate, but he sought out many teachers, ascetics, and he practiced, I don't know, for many years. And then, at that time, the belief was one starved the body in order to elevate the spirit. And he did that to such an extent that he was very close to death. And he realized that he would actually win this war over his body, but he was going to die, and still with his questions unanswered about what life meant, and what suffering was about, and how to transcend it.

[12:16]

So he took some nourishment, and then he began to sit under the famous tree, and he became enlightened. And his enlightenment was so momentous that an event that occurred 2,500 years ago has us meeting here tonight. It was quite spectacular, and he said at that time that he and the entire universe was awakened. So, while he did not invent meditation, he did begin to recognize some of the basic principles, which became Buddhism, and express fundamental principles of the spiritual life, the illusory nature of the soul or the self. And that's one of his fundamental contributions to Buddhism. And I'm going to read a quote from a book called The Buddha's Ancient Path by Pia Dossi. The distinguishing characteristic of Buddhism was that it started in a new line, that it looked at the deepest questions men have to solve from an entirely different standpoint.

[13:17]

It swept away from the field of its vision, the whole of the great soul theory, which had hitherto so completely filled and dominated the minds of the superstitious. and of the thoughtful alike. For the first time in the history of the world, it proclaimed a salvation which each person could gain for herself and by herself in this world during this life without any the least reference to God or to gods, either great or small. It placed the first importance on knowledge, but it was no longer a knowledge of God. It was a clear perception of the real nature as they supposed it to be of men and things. And it added to this the necessity of knowledge, the necessity of purity, of courtesy, of uprightness, of peace, and of a universal love, far-reaching, grown great, and beyond measure. And even in that last sentence, you're going to get that melodious feeling of the Buddhist writing. So let me talk about what this quote means first, and you can chime in any time, and a little bit about the style afterwards.

[14:25]

First of all, it defines the arena of a spiritual practice. It's not about getting high or getting a credential, but about answering the deepest questions that men and women have to solve. What does life mean? How do I live? And what does death mean? And how do I die? And it gives us each responsibility for taking responsibility for our life on equal footing. And with that responsibility, it gives us freedom from dependency. We must perceive reality as it is. We must find our own way. We must ourselves establish what this meaning is for us. So, as I pointed out, the language of the quote is a bit flowery, grandiose, purlative. You know, this grown great, far-reaching, and beyond measure. And this is a characteristic of basic Indian Buddhism. The purpose of the language, the use of the language, was to make it possible to chant the teachings, and it was therefore the way the teachings were recorded.

[15:36]

The language Pali was rhythmic and it was repetitive and it was very easy to chant. So the new religion began and these sutras were chanted and memorized. And that was how the Buddhist lectures were first recorded. But I assume most of us in the room have experience with some other religion than Buddhism. Is that true? Yes. We all know how it goes with religions, and the Buddha started this religion, he established it, and what happens when you establish a religion? There's usually a power structure that emerges, and a hierarchy, and rules, and people jockeying for position. The local minister or rabbi decides that this is his avocation, he goes to get his training, and even if he's well-meaning, there are many encumberments. Perhaps he's sincere or she's sincere, but she's constrained by a superior. Perhaps established religious laws that are part of this teaching don't fit the lifestyle or what the needs of people, you know?

[16:46]

Birth control, for example. Or the lure of power that the teacher gets corrupts the original intention, and the teacher is wooed to a dissolute lifestyle. So then what happens is we start to see a deterioration of this established religion. We often lose faith not only in the particular teacher, but also in the teaching. So as the Buddha, who preached for 45 years, is getting near the end of his life, you can imagine the rivalry and the difficulties that were taking over the community. Anybody have any comments about religions and feelings about other established religions? I know most of us have left them for various reasons. Why? And come here looking for something. Why here? Why Zen? What is it that you expect here? that external.

[18:04]

So that was a big part for me. So the structure and the mythology about the God maybe was something that was extra. Yeah, it was a block. Other things that people like? Similarly for me, I like it because I didn't have to take anything on faith. I didn't have to believe in anything. Meditate on just merely observing what's going on. And what's going on is what's, there's nothing, I don't have to, it's not superstitious. It's very clean. And that's what attracted it for me, what attracted it for me. And Light? For me it was like, that I read by Suzuki that, he said it's not really a religion or it's not possibly a philosophy or something. And I was interested religion. Why is he saying it's no religion?

[19:07]

Why is he saying it's not good to go for an aim? I'm thinking while you were talking about this, this is all, this sounds like Ames and, you know, looking for the source of life or, you know, something like that. The Metta Sutta, yeah, yeah, it has that flavor. Actually, things like, this way of living is the best thing in the world. Right, it's a little competitive. I always sort of stumble over that. And I think that's what attracts me, that there are so many things to stumble over. Yes, there's so many catches. There's competitiveness often in a religion that's established. But surely there must be someone who followed their own religion of birth and had some reason for moving away from it, rather than just the reason of moving towards it. I'm actually still an active Eucharist companion. What I like about Buddhism is the practice that hopefully becomes a part of your everyday life and maybe will sort of change, a spiritual change.

[20:20]

There's something that you can bring into your life and there's some hope of the liveliness and the freshness of it in some way. It's going to come in into you and change you. There's something there. So let me read a little more. I think this came from a book called Living Buddhism about what happened near the Buddha's, the end of his life. For 45 years, the Buddha preached and argued and exhorted. Eventually, however, he began to weaken and it became necessary to consider exactly how the Sangha would function without his inspiring presence. One of the Buddha's cousins who had joined the order, an ambitious and unscrupulous man called Devadatta, suggested that a successor should be chosen and that he, Devadatta, was ideally qualified for the position. The Buddha replied that on the contrary, the Sangha would govern itself. No new leader needed to be selected, as after his death, decisions were to be taken by a simple majority. of the monks present.

[21:21]

The Sangha was to be a democratic, not hierarchical institution. In the last months of his life, the Buddha emphasized the self-reliance that his monks would require in his absence, and in a famous speech shortly before his death, he gave this instruction in a very memorable expression. Therefore, be islands unto yourselves. Take the Self, with a capital S, as your refuge. Take yourself to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Dharma as an island. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth, with a capital T. And whosoever shall take the Self, with a capital S, as an island, taking themselves to no external refuge, but holding fast to the truth as their refuge, it is they who shall reach the very topmost height." Which is, you will realize what you want to realize. Any questions about that quote or the idea? Okay. Well, somewhere in there also, I mean, don't take my word for it, try it out for yourself.

[22:25]

Exactly. To me, that's the most endearing and attractive aspect of the Dharma. That's right, and that is, I think, very essential to how Zen has evolved. So this is not only, as Charlie describes it, a figure this out for yourself, but it's also an approach to how to structure a Buddhist community and an encouragement to rely on our own truth, as Charlie was mentioning. And this applies in every stage of our practice. In the beginning, we must find a teacher or a teaching that we feel some rapport with and we must take responsibility. We don't just trust blindly. We need to accept these teachings, but not entirely, or without examination. And finally, as we begin to talk or teach the way ourselves, we need to sort out our own self-serving ways from what needs to be said. So this is a task that the Buddha has given us that covers really the expanse of our life and our practice.

[23:30]

And I want to talk about another piece of history that has really influenced the practice of Zen, an expression of Buddhism. The Buddha, Shakyamuni, sat with his followers in the northern Indian plains. For no apparent reason, to illustrate no argument, the Buddha suddenly held up a flower and looked at it. Of his disciples, only one, Mahakasyapa, saw any importance in this gesture, and he made no comment, asked no questions, only smiled. Such a trivial episode might seem scarcely worth history's trouble to record. Yet for Zen Buddhists, this incident is one of the greatest significance. The central purpose of Zen is the awakening of indescribable illumination, and it is the single-mindedness with which it pursues this goal that separates it from other Buddhist schools.

[24:32]

I would differ with separation, but we'll let it be. Followers of Zen certainly do not question the fundamentals of the Buddha's teaching. They merely insist that as enlightenment is attainable and, in the Soto sect, realizable by just sitting, it must be immediately and directly pursued and realized. Although the Buddha's rules for rational and virtuous behavior provide an essential preliminary to meditation by clearing the mind of vice and unreason, It is the very fact of his enlightenment which is the crucial part of his message in Zen. Thus the Buddha's teachings about the nature of physical reality and the human mind are of incalculable value, but nonetheless ultimately subordinate to his demonstration that life contains the potential for transcendent experience. But what of Mahakasyapa and the flower? This episode, The Zen Tradition Maintains, is the first illustration that fundamental to Buddhism is a transmission of wisdom beyond the capabilities of language.

[25:44]

The Buddha, in his enlightened state, looked at the flower and perceived its true reality with a Kappalar. A vision uncorrupted by the limitation of the senses or habits and prejudices of the mind. His attention unexpectedly drawn to the flower. Mahakasyapa suddenly saw as the Buddha saw and he too became enlightened. Mahakasyapa silently received a teaching that it would have been impossible by rational, philosophical methods, and in so doing achieved the primary objective of Zen Buddhism, the realization by the religious practitioner of the Buddha mind, or enlightenment. Does everybody understand that or know about that episode during a lecture where the Buddha held up a flower and Mahakasyapa was the only one who resonated with his experience of life manifesting in this flower and smiled?

[26:48]

And actually this was the first example of what we call Dharma Transmission. And Dharma transmission we still carry out today is the direct transmission of the Buddha mind from teacher to his Dharma heir. And while the Buddha said, well, there isn't going to be a teacher, there's a little bit of contradiction in that. Mahakasyapa became the first of the ancestors. In fact, one of the ones we chant, we chant the Buddhas and ancestors. And today we still have this ceremony here as part of Zen Center. I'm not sure that we use a flower. It's kind of hidden until you've been through it. But there is a Dharma Transmission Ceremony. And it's almost always priests who receive Dharma Transmission, although some people who are not priests have received it. And where the teacher now says, you know my mind completely.

[27:51]

in some way or now, can be a teacher on your own. So the flower, the nature of the flower, the shared experience without a word spoken. And there's no rational approach to the meaning of this exchange, even though we try to put words to it. But it is in this experience that the seed of Zen is sown. There is something that can't be memorized, forced, copied, or predicted. It's the real thing, and you know it when you see it. And it's something of that, that later, as Ross and I enacted, is occurring in these transactions between Chan teachers. Because it's abbreviated, Zen has become a little bit anti-word and anti-intellectual, which is different than the way the Buddha taught initially. So this was the first recorded Dharma transmission ceremony where the mind of the teacher was shared or transmitted to a student and the student became his legitimate heir.

[28:57]

Here, in this transition and transaction, intellect and length of training amount of social influence or other measurable skills do not count. The teacher designates his heir by the person who has understanding, that only the teacher knows that understanding. This is also a little different than the democratic process that the Buddha set out as the example we would follow. and we still have both of those occurring even at this Zen Center where we have a democratic process and we have a board of directors and yet we have people who teach classes or give lectures and they are designated by the teacher here. So there's some conflict between democracy And, in fact, another way that the teaching is carried out. So, maybe you... Is it a conflict, or is it just what's going on?

[30:01]

Well, they're different theories. There's one theory which talks about democracy in that way, and then there's another theory which might potentially conflict. For example, if we all voted on the people who gave classes, we might come up with different people than Mel has selected. Do you agree or disagree? You know, with the people that Mel selects to give classes and give lectures. And if you disagree, then you have the Buddha's counsel, which is, find your truth, yourself. Whatever teacher is presenting to you, rely on yourself with a capital S. Rely on the truth, rely on the Dharma. This is where his advice is very useful. use that as your refuge, the truth, no matter what a so-called teacher says or does. But there's another historical step in tying Mahakasyapa to our practice of Zen today.

[31:03]

As some of you may know, Zen evolved from the Chinese practice of Buddhism known as Chan, and Chan was brought to China by disciples of the Buddha. And of course, at this Zen Center, we talk about one of those early Chan teachers, who is Bodhidharma. And we have a picture right here of Bodhidharma, who supposedly, he looks this way because he cut off his eyelids. And he cut off his eyelids so that he didn't fall asleep in meditation when he sat in a cave and faced the wall for nine years. So, there's a lot of intensity here. From where he threw his eyelids? Where his eyelids fell. Yes. Charming. But there's some sort of rational, poetic analogy there, because tea keeps you awake.

[32:07]

Yes, that's the connection. Outside is the home. Right, a warning, this might be harmful to your health and your sleep. Yeah, and then new teeth. Well, there is creeping in, we see in the practice, there's creeping in a kind of intensity and macho, as Ross and I demonstrated, you know, in the Chan practice. And there's a bit of a reason for this, which is, I'm not so familiar with what happened to Buddhism in India, but I read some accounts. And of course, as soon as the religion is embraced in a certain way by the establishment, it becomes corrupted. And then we had in India the conquering hordes coming in and pretty much wiping it out. But a few of the teachers sneaked into China. I was going to say Canada. But I sneaked across the border there and took it with them.

[33:14]

And the exchange that Ross and I enacted is a little bit of the kind of code that they use for saying, are you a true teacher or not? Are you just flapping your gums or what? And there was this constant challenge in speaking in code because As it came into China, it was even more the case that it was adopted very much by the establishment, and when the monks were then supported by the royal court, well, what did they do? I mean, they became very interested in their possessions and their finery, and there was real deterioration. So then we had something like what you saw with us, these Zen cowboys running around off in the countryside away from these areas that had become corrupt. And that's something of what happened to make this transition from this very high-minded, superlative kind of talk that was memorized to something that was quite

[34:22]

immediate and spontaneous and also a little bit in code, the highest matter and so on. It would be interesting to look at, while it was all very high-minded and wordy in India, still there was transmission that was going on in the early sutras, but it must have been going on because Zen carries its lineage back to the historical Buddha. That's right. That's right. It's a good point. We don't have much record of it because people didn't write that much. But what they did was they memorized these sutras, which we have from the early practice, and they recited them, and eventually they wrote them down. But there did seem to be, there must have been, because these teachers, these early Chan teachers were all from India, coming into China with this way, so there must have been some evolution there. And the reverse is true, even though they had these short talks that are recorded, they also are very well versed in what the sutras were.

[35:28]

Absolutely, they studied a lot and translated a lot. So, in taking another historical step in tying Mahakasyapa to our own practice of Zen today, As you may know, this Zen, which evolved from the Chinese practice of Buddhism, is known as Chan. And Chan was brought to China by all these disciples. And the most famous one here, as I said, was Bodhidharma, who came to the Chinese city of Nanking in 520 AD, where he had the famous encounter with Emperor Wu. And I don't know how many of you have heard of this famous encounter with Emperor Wu. Some of you, some of you not. Well, shortly we will have another practice period, and during the practice period we will have a shuso, a head student, who will be sort of the model during the practice period and have tea with everyone else. And he will be given the case of Bodhidharma and the Emperor Wu to comment on.

[36:29]

And every year, or whatever it is, sometimes we have two practice periods in a year, we have a commentary on this age-old very simple discourse between Bodhidharma and Emperor Wu, which I don't have written, but I'll try to wing, because it's so simple. It's something like, he's presented to the Emperor, and I mean, this is his big chance, this is a big time, it's like one of us being presented to Bill Clinton, you know, here's your chance to get your plug in for your practice and everything else. And the Emperor says, what's your name? And he said, I know not, or nothing. And he says, you know, what is the highest good? And he says, nothing, it's empty. And he asked him some question also about, because the Emperor Wu was actually not such a bad guy, he was very much involved and interested in this practice of Chan, and had built many temples and so on, and he asked Bodhidharma if there was any merit in this.

[37:36]

And Bodhidharma said, no, there's no merit at all. This is not the way to make friends and influence emperors. And I think it was at that point he said, who are you? And he said, I know not. Who stands before me? Well, it's essentially, yes, it's essentially what's your name and what's your credentials? But he says, who stands before me in his language? He says, I know not. And then he hightails it out of there. And he said I have no idea. Yes, we've heard I have no idea, but I've heard others I know not or it's basically I'm not telling so That's for me to know and you to find out it's kind of choosing the Emperor off in a way and This is not a good thing to do if you want to survive usually in these in these times where? Some of the emperors and kings would send someone out to do you in if you'd been rude in this way.

[38:39]

So Bodhidharma took off and went to the cave and sat there for many years and cut off his eyelids and did other spectacular things. I was just, you know, a big chubby guy. And the attendant says, that was Bodhidharma, the incarnation of Kuan Yin, the Bodhisattva of Compassion, coming here to offer the Buddhist teaching. And, you know, oh my God, you know. Ooh, I blew it. Yeah, go get him. And then the attendant says, no, there's no way he'll come back, which is another stark aspect to, in the moment, you have to be there if you miss it. Yeah, your moment's gone. But you always get another move. Yes. Well, that's an interesting part of this whole koan because he says, you know, even if you sent everyone in your kingdom to bring him back, he won't come back.

[39:41]

So... It's like Humpty Dumpty. Yeah. He's not speaking to you anymore. That's it. You blew it. So, in the shuso ceremony, there's always a commentary on this case. You know, you really have to reach, after you've heard so many commentaries so many years, to come up with anything that's a little different over this exchange of basically, you know, there's no merit and I'm not telling you who I am. You know, that's the whole story. So, besides that, he has another claim to fame, bodhidharma, besides his exchange with Emperor Wu. and he is the 28th link in an unbroken chain of spiritual transmission from master to pupil extending back to Mahakasyapa and consequently to the Buddha himself. Bodhidharma was the 28th in the line, the flower handing. It is this chain which supports the Zen assertion when it's made that we have a very pure practice, a very pure Buddhist practice because our practice comes to us through Bodhidharma who was in fact a direct link to the Buddha.

[40:57]

But Bodhidharma summarized his message in the following verse about Mahakasyapa in this transmission. A special transmission Outside the scriptures, no dependence on words and letters, direct pointing to the soul of man, seeing into one's own nature and attainment of Buddhahood. A special transmission outside the scriptures, no dependence on words and letters, direct pointing to the soul of man, seeing into one's own nature and attainment of Buddhahood. That's our practice. These four simple lines make plain the fact that Zen is essentially a practical religion in which the emphasis is not on discourse and analysis, unlike this evening, but on actual achievement or enlightenment brought about by this effort of practice. It is anti-intellectual.

[41:59]

claiming that the highest realms of Buddhist philosophy, even of understanding all of these intense systems that the Buddha had laid out, none of these will lead to enlightenment. Only practice, yes. So would you say that Buddhism is a mystical Well, it's technically a religion, but we could talk about it as a path. What does everybody think about that? Would they make that distinction that Buddhism is a mystical path versus a religion? What do you think? What do people answer? Yes? So that's a very practical thing, that appeals to me, that's why I... Gives you a map.

[43:07]

Gives you a map, gives you something to work with. Yeah, it does. I think Buddhism does give you many of the... qualities or characteristics that you get from religion. They just give you a way to follow. And rules. Yeah. More of a mystical bent. Yeah, it does. It gives much more of you can directly experience it rather than in many religions only the one who's standing up there leading the service is really in direct connection with God. We all have our phones, you know. It's like you have your own portable phone. They're a direct link to God. Yeah, other people have their hands up. Can I say pretty much what you said in that? Buddhism seems to point inward and religions, most other religions that I know about, I'm not a religious expert, seem to point outward towards God is going to save you or someone outside of yourself is going to save you. Yes. I think that this is a good

[44:08]

that Zen is a religion in the sense that we have a formatted approach to doing a lot of things. We do things together. There are things like the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. There is that. And all the religions I've ever experienced have those kinds of things, you know, those And I would say that all religions have some amount of that. I like Zen because Zen has got a real rich mix of the latter rather than the former. I think that's a good way of describing the mix that we have in our practice, having the things laid out, the basic Buddhist tenets, and having your reliance on your inner experience, your mystical experience. Somebody else over here?

[45:16]

Well, I was again going to say the direct experience. Mm-hmm. I'd like to hear it in your words, too. I'm much more than that. I did bring in the list which is out on the shoe rack for those of you who are new to this religion. I guess it is a religion and it does have a mystical side to it that's very well articulated for each person. I know from my background, I didn't get, because I was so immature when I first started, you know. Religion. I didn't get the mystical aspects. What religion? I mean, I think I had them, but I didn't know that it was okay to have them. What religion were you practicing? Roman Catholic. Well, yeah, it has a really deep mystical side to it, but it's kind of... But when I first started, it wasn't, you know, we weren't taught. that aspect. It was all rules, read the bible, and you know, all this kind of stuff.

[46:17]

And the whole inner experience was not given credence, you know. And you could just, there was so much, you know, that you would experience. As either, in fact I'm not comfortable thinking of it as either a religion or a mystic. Well, you've always been an island unto yourself. I just think of it as something that I do that's important. I think it gets back to the math thing, you know, I guess. In a way, it's just what's important to do. So for you, it's just like, this is what you do because it feels right? Yeah. Charlie, you know, you have Uchiyama... Oh, I actually have it here, too. I was going to say you could read that. In the handout I gave you, in fact, it describes what you were saying about... What is your name again?

[47:21]

Ben. The fundamental difference between Buddhism and other religions is that Buddhism has no god or gods before whom people bow down and return for peace of mind. The spirit enmeshed in the Buddha's teaching refuses to offer a god in exchange for freedom from anxiety. Instead, freedom from anxiety can only be found at that point where the self, with a capital S, settles naturally upon itself. So it was what you were referring to is that you don't get to do that swap where you sort of turn yourself over and say, oh great, I don't have to have any worries. I've gotten rid of all my sins and I'm saved now and I should be perfectly happy. You still get to be miserable. I don't know. Sometimes I think they get a pretty good deal, yes. I've been trying to think about what it is that's so different And I think that one of the most important pieces, in a way, is the difference in how I view a discriminatory kind of practice.

[48:35]

My experience with Catholicism was that there was definitely an us and them, and everything sprung from whether you were Catholic or not, whether you were saved or not. whether you were chosen or not. And then within the fold, there was still other discriminations to be made. Very competitive. Well, competitive and beyond hierarchical. It's sort of like almost encouraging for a kind of wildmanship, you know, to be sure you have somehow that you won't be ending in limbo, for God's sake, or whatever it is. And this was what we saw, like a carrot, you know, on the end of the stick. That was a kind of prompting. And I see that shades of that in almost every other Western kind of Christian sort of religion. I think, for me so far anyway, in Buddhism, this is not, it's not the carrot and stick like that.

[49:43]

that's based on discriminatory one-upmanship. And when I start to feel that, I get very nervous. Well, it's good you have your antenna out. It's like that goes along with dependency. Everyone wants a dependency trip, you know. Yeah, well, some do. But they're probably not in the right place if they came here, right? Some people do, yes. I feel kind of thing talking about religion like that because first I thought well perhaps I'm in the same place as you are, like it feels right and that's why I'm doing it but I think I was most attracted by that when we read that how the Buddha taught that passage saying that there is no use in Oh yeah, that's good.

[50:46]

So proper meaning is something like judging other religions and judging them badly. Because that somehow only comes back on your own practice in a way. Yeah, it's important to recognize. And that was something very important for me. So I don't... I feel strange about talking about other religions like that because I feel such a lot of wealth in other religions? They're very rich. But what we're talking about is how individuals felt limited by their experience in that religion. It's very important to acknowledge that difference, that other religions are fine and they offer, they have much to offer, but for the people who came here, what was it that attracted them and what was it that they couldn't find? And I think one of the things that happens when a religion has been established a long time, unless they work very hard, as Zen has, to destroy all concepts, even the concept of destroying all concepts, and that was what Akin Roshi talked about when he was here, that they become very rule-bound.

[51:59]

And whatever you started with becomes bound with rules and structures and encumberments And then it is very hard for each individual to have a connection to the big self. And that those things, one can still do it within any religion, but there's a lot to sort through. So I think it's good to keep reminding ourselves that we're not here to put down any other religion, but to talk about our experience of how there was something for ourselves which brought us here that we missed in that. And because the reason we're talking about that is to see how in fact Zen did preserve that kind of freshness and direct experience, which is what we're at now. Now we could talk about a little bit, maybe you guys can help me out on this, so we have time to talk about the Four Noble Truths for those who we're not offering, I guess, introductory Buddhism this year.

[53:04]

Well, let's just say what they are. We are going over to Four Noble Truths. How many people would like to hear Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path? That's a significant number. Four Noble Truths. The truth of suffering, the unsatisfactory nature of all phenomena, The origin of suffering is the second one, which is the craving for sense pleasures, for continued existence. That's like, it feels good and I don't want to let go of it. And then the third truth is that there is a cessation of suffering. There is a freedom from craving. And the fourth is that it is the eightfold path that there is a way leading to the cessation of suffering. So first truth is, oh, oh my God. Everything is, there's all this suffering. It's the nature of being human and having a body. which leads into the second one, that the origin of suffering is the craving, and then the third one is that there is a way for the cessation of suffering, and the fourth noble truth is that the cessation of suffering occurs through following this Eightfold Path.

[54:13]

Questions? Disagreements? I think we all know that's why we're here. Okay, in the Eightfold Path there are three categories of statements. There are the statements about wisdom, the statements about morality, and about samadhi or meditation. And the wisdom group is that there is a perfect view or understanding, and that there is perfect thought. And perfect view means seeing things as they are, and perfect thought is thoughts of renunciation, the metta sutta, goodwill, and compassion. Okay, so that's under wisdom. Morality is perfect speech. This is all the rules. No lying, no slander, no harsh words or gossip, which Adelaide was making sure we were not slandering. She was keeping us honest on that.

[55:16]

Perfect action, no killing, stealing, or unchaste acts. Perfect livelihood, not dealing and killing or intoxicants. So these are the rules that enable your life to settle down. And then the settling occurs more through the meditation as well. Meditation furthers the settling process. Perfect effort, mental energy or effort to abandon unwholesome thoughts that have arisen, to prevent unwholesome thoughts from arising, to develop wholesome thoughts. Don't think bad, think good. Perfect mindfulness, complete awareness and clear comprehension of the body, feelings, mind and mind objects. It's very hard to be acting out unconsciously when you're conscious of these impulses as they arise. This is the four foundations of mindfulness. And then perfect meditation, which is practicing Zazen for us.

[56:18]

So those are, that's the Four Noble Truths. Then there's the other thing that is very basic to Buddhism, which is the Three Marks of Existence. Suffering, impermanence, and emptiness. So that kind of, and these sheets, which have all these lists, the Five Desires, the Five Skandhas, the Three Refuges, the Three Poisons, all of this list is on the shoe rack. And so it kind of sums up all the rules and regs of uh... buddhism so where we are now uh... do we take a break in this class or do we just barrel on through? can i ask about the suffering and getting released from the suffering and then i heard later on about the wholesome thoughts and if that does create a feeling of wholesomeness and is that the release of the suffering or is the release of the suffering a nothingness, a void, or is there a sense of wholesomeness and goodness that one feels eventually if life is all suffering?

[57:26]

Well, it's certainly a start. I mean, there's a kind of suffering that everybody has to have, which is you get old and you get sick and you die, or you get an accident and you die. But basically everyone has to have that suffering, and not only do you have to have it, But you get to watch other people around you have it that you adore. So that's suffering that we never lose. But we also tend to make things worse, you know, and that's the unwholesome thoughts. So that we wish ill to others, we want to strive to be ahead of others and be competitive, we want to cling to good sensations. That makes it all worse. But it's okay to think that way. I mean, we're not trying to put those terrible, unwholesome thoughts in a box. No. But they don't feel good. They don't feel good. They only come back a million fold. As we well know. It's not to become attached to them, just to let go of them.

[58:31]

kill Richard Nixon, but I'll just let that one go. Right. But they are, she was asking about the relationship to suffering. No, but she was talking about unwholesome thoughts. Yes. So can I have an unwholesome thought? Of course you can. Unwholesome. But are you allowed to enjoy the wholesome ones, or do you have to detach from them too? Excuse me, say that again? No, you don't have to. You don't have to detach from the wholesome ones? No. In fact, Buddhism encourages you to have them. I mean, that's what the Mantisutta says. But not to be attached to either. Right. It's a place of departure from sort of root Buddhism and Zen, where old Buddhism Well-placed, I'm sorry. I wouldn't say Zen, necessarily.

[60:10]

Right. This is basic Buddhism and not so much Zen. Go ahead. Yeah. I mean, for me, trying not to have unwholesome thoughts is like trying not to think of pink elephants. Right. Now we're all thinking of them. And the idea is just to... I mean, I'm not an expert, but I think the idea is to just observe what comes up and be aware, shine the light of awareness on whatever thoughts happen. Yes. I just was going to agree with Ross about this thing. And, you know, we started off with this, this contrast between the metta sutra thing and the, and the later little dialogue with the water pistol. And I think that it's, it's very much, I mean, if you really want to say, well, what, what was pushing this kind of development is, you know, Buddhism is non-dualistic, you know, it's not into the sweetness and light trip, really.

[61:15]

And it started out with a lot of that, but then as people really looked at it harder, they say, well, we don't want to really be attached even to the good stuff. We don't want to be attached. Yeah. So I think that, you know, the water pistols came in there. Yes. I guess I've always, as was said earlier, I'm not an expert either, but it seems to me that suffering is in some ways the wrong word, because as is pointed out in the book that Ross is having people read on Mondays, He uses the word dukkha instead of suffering, because suffering makes people think that Buddhism is a very pessimistic religion, that we're all walking around being pessimistic. And that's not right, I think, because to the extent you have to look at dukkha, you almost have to look at the second noble truth, which is the arising of dukkha, which is this thirst, this constant wanting and thirst. And it, in some ways, ties into wanting good things as well as wanting things to be perfect and always good.

[62:17]

And you can't, they can't be that way. And so seeking good things in themselves almost creates the dukkha or the suffering, because what you're trying to get, all the good things in themselves cannot be permanent, and there's this natural tendency to keep going and trying to get more and more and more. And that in and of itself, even if you're pursuing happy things or good things, creates suffering. So I think suffering is, you can't look at it, it's clinging. It's not always a bad thing. an attempt to try to go off and get good things, which in and of itself creates a suffering, because you can't maintain always getting good things. But I do want to say, in terms of the Buddhist texts, in the wholesome and unwholesome thoughts, sometimes I myself feel that Zen misses a little of the compassion side. And then it gets a little bit into the question you're asking, which is the voidness, you know, you have to let go of everything. There's something about practicing metta, which other practices do much more than we do, which is consciously directing one's thoughts to these kinds of, you know, let one be joyous and let one not be puffed up, but let's do nothing mean.

[63:36]

But there are positive things they say, you know, protect and suffuse with love. And there are actually ways that you direct yourself And I think that's a little bit like pulling weeds. They're always going to be weeds, but as you pull them or let go of them is another way of looking at it. As Charlie was saying, there are less of them. There's not that struggle. And there are two ways to do it. One is to let go and just let them be and not to attach to them and not try to force yourself to be goody two-shoes. And another way is to practice this meta directly. which is perfectly acceptable. What other practices do emphasize that more? You mentioned that there are others other than Zen. I can't name, but I think Vipassana does to a certain extent, and I think other Buddhist practices do. Practice Metta much more so than Zen does. In fact, that sort of leads into what... So what is it, you know, what is this essence that we've been talking about that keeps

[64:39]

Zen fresh, and it keeps, you know, what are the qualities, I don't know how many of you read the readings, but what are these qualities of what they write about that makes Zen Zen? Certainly it's not an emphasis on meta and on wholesome thoughts. It is an emphasis that's anti-words, in anti-hierarchy, and what other things did you notice? I mean, it certainly promotes being in the moment, and having a direct experience yourself. So what other things make it what it is? I just wanted to raise a thought that came into my mind. For a religion that is anti-wordists, It has a fantastic literature. Yes, it does. We never stop trying to capture the wordless with words. But you can't get promoted by the words.

[65:40]

See, that's the difference. Some people aren't into promotion much. Yes, that's true too. But in other practices, you know, writing... The Sixth Patriarch was promoted because he wrote this great poem. Or he dictated this great poem and somebody else wrote it all. Well, it was his mind that won him the promotion and the words reflected it. It wasn't like he wrote a whole treatise. I mean, he wrote four lines. That's right. It was a poem. It wasn't... An essay. Yes, exactly. Well, that itself supports what we're saying. We're getting to bare bones here. We're not having this rhythmic repetitive. We're getting to how few words rather than how many and how beautiful can it sound. I have a question. Especially when I was first introduced to Zen, I would go to your talks. And it's still true today sometimes. And that really put me off for a long time, and really probably kept me from embracing Zen more initially.

[66:58]

That to me is the most frustrating thing. And I guess what I'm kind of slowly beginning to understand is that maybe that's an attempt for some kind of direct transmission to occur, that somehow that'll grasp maybe the one person out of a hundred who hears it, or I don't know, but I just find it very... It's very frustrating. Uh-huh. You know, when I hear you talking about it, I'm reminded of what the Buddha's warning is, which was, you know, don't rely on something else. You know, if it didn't feel right to you and you weren't getting what you needed, then it doesn't matter whether one in a hundred was, in a sense. You need to seek out what works for you. And sometimes, my experience, and maybe it's judgmental, is when people are talking that way, it's an imitation. You know, it's an imitation of Zen style, and they're not really grounded in it sometimes. You say something? Well, you know, I had this thing right here in this temple.

[68:01]

It's the only temple I ever belonged to. For years, I felt, you know, when Mel talked about these different cases from the collections, my mind just was loaded with this koan salad. And I complained to him one time. I said, it's just, you know, they're all the same. I mean, the master is hitting the student and the pebble is falling in the water. I wonder if I can get you from here. It's just too confusing. And he says, yes. But after a while, it does become clear. I mean, you just have to stay with it. One of the reasons, I think, that these teachers sound obscure is because they're really solidly in the tradition. And the tradition is obscure. Yes. It's in the code.

[69:03]

It's in code. And they will not explain it to you. You know, wait for hell to freeze over and they'll never explain it to you. You've got to get it on your own. Yeah, I think that's really important. You were going to say something? Your name? Well, yeah, I was just thinking of Bodhidharma and the Emperor. In fact, didn't Bodhidharma tell the Emperor everything he needed to know, but the Emperor didn't hear it? He said nothing. Well, it took him years of pondering, yeah. No names, nothing, and the Emperor's gone. What are you saying? But it was all there? Yes, it was. It was. And it was and it wasn't, because it wasn't there for Bodhidharma, I mean, for the Emperor Wu in that moment. His teacher was speaking to him, but he didn't understand. And that's why I say sometimes I feel that compassion side sometimes is missing. Now, as Charlie said, you know, they speak in an obscure way in the tradition, because that is the tradition.

[70:06]

Forget about thinking. Forget about figuring it out. Either you're going to get it right now, directly, or not. Now, I want to say that, you know, I don't pretend to understand it, but I understand some of the process in the sense that I know, like for instance, if you want to show somebody something about painting, you can talk about it forever. But that actually sort of ruins it. And the very best way is to even do the best attempt you can at showing. And same thing with music. We all do it. Do you know that tune? Well, it goes, la, [...] la. And then it's there. So in this situation of speaking in a way that is hard to understand, that is obscure, it's in the process of it. that it's there in that process.

[71:11]

It can't be in the explanatory process or in the teachery, kind of pedantic process, because that will do something else to the listener, and it will do something else to the subsequent knowledge. It will just come out of the interaction differently. So it's like when we're ready to kind of fool around in this soup, that we notice a different thing happen. Right. It's awakening another mind, another way of being. And the initial exposure to it can be unkind and uncomfortable, where you feel like you've been thrown in the water and nobody taught you how to swim, but in some teachers that's the best way, get in the water and now swim. Keeping those high standards keeps the compassion high.

[73:50]

That the student gets it, here's the pebble right, here's, feels the scoop of coffee right, or gets the drawing right, the brush stroke right, and then it's all... Then there's the meeting and then there's the transmission. Yes. That's the transmission. Right, and that's what also avoids the kind of dependency For me the compassion comes with, I'm not exactly sure I can explain how they're connected but somehow they do seem connected.

[74:53]

The notion of the interconnectedness of everything that Zen seems to have the idea or the experience of sort of the butterfly effect where a butterfly flapping its wings in South America can cause hurricanes in the Midwest. But one person smiling has reverberations throughout the whole universe. It seems if we're all really that interconnected, compassion is a corollary to that. That wasn't explained very well, but that's the-. I think we get if we're all one and connected in that way, and there is the sharing. We want to take care of ourselves. Right. Which means we want to take care of ourselves. Of everyone. Yeah. Going back a second to the understanding of the koans. I'm sort of reluctant to say this, but that's not going to stop me.

[76:00]

I keep in my side pocket in relation to understanding them, and also compassionate, particularly as we're talking about it in the context of the Lehman and the historical developments. This was a very patriarchal society, and I think that somehow keeping a perspective on it in that way, a necessity, I think, or allows my understanding really, or at least allows acceptance. That maybe the feminine side of compassion is we experience it as a little bit absent. Or something like that. Yeah, it could be. I certainly have that experience. I think, maybe this is just too broad a generalization, but that there's a much deeper either connection or attachment to the body that women have, and for example the notion of cutting off your eyelids, or the other story about Bodhidharma, where his would-be disciple is waiting out in the snow for him for a long time, and he refuses to allow this disciple to study with him, because for some reason he needs a sure sign that the disciple will make the sincere effort.

[77:26]

And it isn't until the disciple cuts his arm off and presents it to Bodhidharma that he allows him to come in. And I find that not my way. And that's where I say, I'm going to be my island over here. I think I'll give my arms, thank you very much. This is a legend. No, no, no, let me go on. Let me go on. I know these are legends. Let me go on. But I should have brought the book, but did not, of Transitions and Traditions in Zen. And post-World War II, there are stories of monks going to Zen monasteries after their initial training being sent. Now you have to go to Daitoku-ji and be accepted at Daitoku-ji, which is a very big training temple. And you go with your begging bowls and you sit there. And you sit there and a day goes by and they tell you to go away. And you still sit there and you still aren't eating. And they come out and they start beating you with a stick. And the description of this man, you know, hemorrhaging and, you know, feeling these bruises all over his body, really is not my way either.

[78:34]

And this is, and the man who wrote the story is talking about how it truly awakened his effort. It truly awakened his effort. It awakened his resolve. Taking that kind of beating until his face was completely swollen, beyond recognition, was his way of saying, I will not budge. And to me, that's a kind of a macho approach that I can't relate to. Well, it's also Japanese. True. Yes. I don't think Mel... Well, I'm not saying we do. Yeah, I don't think Mel or Suzuki Roshi are asking us to sort of, you know, do those practices here. We have to find that our expression of Zen, you know, for ourselves. Oh, I don't think they are either. I'm not suggesting that they are. That the history, you know, is colored with all that, and as Charlie said, these legends and myths and metaphors that, depending on how you take it, influence us one way or another. But see, that's not a legend.

[79:36]

That book was published in either 1980 or 1990, and this Zen priest, who's well-known... Now we're talking about the Bodhidharma organization. Right, but I'm talking about this, which I still find abhorrent. It was published in the 80s or 90s, and is from a teacher who is legitimate, and who is a Zen teacher, who I probably won't be practicing with, but who may not still practice that way, but who legitimizes It legitimizes this kind of awakening of effort. So again, whatever teacher you go to, just because they're a legitimate teacher, you have to believe that this is the way for you. I don't like the beating either, but wouldn't the teacher also say that by not telling you what Charlie was saying, the answers to the koan, and not giving you something simple, that he is being compassionate because if the essence of buddhism is that you must find it on your own and you must do it on your own and there is not a god or there's not a teacher out there to to tell you it's okay or to to give you an easy way to relieve your anxiety by making you do it yourself

[80:50]

as painful as it may be, putting aside eating, etc., that by doing it yourself you are doing what is Buddhism, which is to do it and find it on your own. And to do it otherwise, to give the easy answer, is to be not compassionate. And there's certainly a strong case for that, that it's compassionate, and yet there would also, I would think, be a skillful way of facilitating understanding. I mean, I think there's room for both. that it doesn't need to be one way or another. Both are valid ways. I guess the other thing is that the koans are so, I would think particularly for a Western mind, are to try to keep you from thinking in a traditional Western way. That's right. Because, you know, what is the sound of one hand clapping? We keep trying. You sit and you try to figure it out intellectually and the answer is you'll never figure it out if you try to figure it out intellectually.

[81:51]

Right. Right. Well, from a somewhat intellectual standpoint, if you look at those cases of beatings, I mean, we can take those as parables for just a devotion to practice. Devotion, just looking at this person's suffering and The fact that he still was devoted to the practice seems inspiring in a certain way, even though it's violent. Right. It was interesting, the story was written about a priest who, his first experience of this kind of devotion, was being asked to be a kamikaze pilot in World War II, which he also gave himself over to. And then, having had that training, it was very easy to take these kinds of beatings, because that's very much part of the culture and the tradition. It's like, this is for the higher good, and it's very much part of the Japanese way. Well, how did he survive? The war ended before he served. Yeah, the war ended before he served, and he found his way, after the war, into Zen practice.

[82:56]

But then look at the opposite with Suzuki Roshi led pacifist movements in Japan. He had a much gentler way. He had a difficult time while he was a pacifist. He was passing out these pacifist tracts in this very militaristic society. It's not a way to endear yourself. That's true. Anybody else on this? Well, let's just summarize then. So what we're coming to is that this was a way of keeping the practice pure, of enabling us to make a direct contact, of fostering self-reliance, and a genuine, other people think of other ways to describe how Zen evolved as it did.

[83:56]

I can't answer that, I just have to ask this question. Because you said a pure practice a number of times, so there's a big implication that there's an impure practice. So what's the impure practice in Buddhism? I don't know what the impure practice is in Buddhism, but there was a sense that there was a corruption in a losing one's way. because of the involvement between the establishment and all the money and the really taking as one's goals fame and fortune versus taking as one's goals of knowing the true self. So that this code in this way developed in a kind of underground way. that if you went to the big cities, there were all these famous and important priests who were well supported by their patrons. And if you went to the countryside, you would find these wandering bums, you know, living as hermits, who had a true way, who had kept themselves devoted to letting go rather than attachment.

[85:12]

Was it a devotion that was also to Sangha as well as... Sometimes. I mean, next week, that kind of leads into next week, when we'll talk about some of the teachers. Yes, Steve? I just recollect somebody having been in one of the temples in Japan, and maybe more than one temple, and there was a picture on the wall of a master beating some sort of young monk, pretty brutally, and then down below So, I mean, that's how they look at it, that culture. And that's how they look at that culture? I don't think we swing with that very much in this country. But you may if you want to, see, because that's what the Buddha said, you know. You have to rely on yourself to find your way in a certain way, in a big self. And so, for some people, that's deeply meaningful.

[86:12]

It doesn't happen to ring my bells. So, there it is. So does that answer your question about sort of pure and impure? It's like you can do the practice. There's a wonderful cartoon of a couple monks, Gahan Wilson, a couple monks sitting in the zendo and then there's the teacher and you're kind of standing behind the teacher and the monks are saying to each other, I wonder if we should ask why in the mornings the teacher is silent and it's just a cut out. You know, on plywood of the teacher sitting and the teacher sleeping behind him. And so one can follow certain of the forms and wear the robes and save the chance and leave the services without the true heart of what the intention of the practice is about. Yeah, for me, one of the kind of tests is the dedication to the teacher.

[87:17]

more than one's own sitting. I mean, there is a dedication to Sangha, there is a dedication to the Dharma, which has more than just following your practice. It's your practice does become involved with others, and so then there becomes a test there as to what... For you. Yeah, the way I see it is that there's a kind of a It's not a free fall. Right. Although, one of the teachers that I'd like to talk about in the next couple of classes, in the next class, will be Ryokan, who essentially practiced by himself most of his life, and left a wonderful legacy as a Zen hermit, and had some involvement with people and children, but he couldn't find his way in temples and with the Sangha. He just couldn't do it. It left us a wonderful legacy. It's your test, but maybe not THE test, you know, and we can decide that when we go over that.

[88:19]

So, we're very much at the end, and if anybody has anything else to say? Thank you. So we'll see you next week. Now I have here, for those who do not have Suzuki Roshi's book, or Uchiyama Roshi's book, the chapters that I mentioned in this handout that you can take. And this is Suzuki Roshi here, and this is Uchiyama Roshi here.

[88:56]

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