Good morning. Good morning. It's fine. Oh. Oh. Well, Zen Master Dogen wrote a vesicle called Zazen Shin, which means something like the acupuncture needle of Zazen, or the point of Zazen. I've talked about this before, and this represents the essence of Zazen, and there are many interesting stories that he tells to illustrate his point, his acupuncture point.

[01:12]

And there's one story which is very well known to everyone, to most people, most Zen students, And it's the well-known story of polishing the tile to make a Buddha. So this is a story between Nangako Ejo and Baso, or Matsu. Nangako Ejo was one of the six ancestors' disciples from whom the Rinzai lineage descends. Seigen, Yoshi, was the sixth ancestor's disciple from whom the Asoto lineage descends. And Baso was Nagaku's student. So, the story starts out when the Chan master Da Chur, who is Matsu, of Chang Shi, was studying with Chan master Nangaku of Nanyue.

[02:35]

After intimately receiving the mind seal, he always sat in meditation. Once, Nanyue went to Da Chur and said, worthy one, what are you figuring to do sitting there in meditation. Receiving the mind seal is like having a dharma transmission or acknowledgement of the person's understanding. So Chong Shi said, I'm figuring to make a Buddha or become a Buddha. This is his big pitfall. At this point, Nanyue took up a tile and began to rub it on the stone. At length, Dajur asked, Master, what are you doing? And Nanyue said, I'm polishing this to make a mirror. Dajur said, how can you produce a mirror by polishing a tile?

[03:41]

Nanyue replied, how can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation? Uh-oh. There goes our whole practice out the window. Dajir asked, then what is right? Nanyue replied, when a person is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should that person beat the cart or beat the ox? If you want to make the cart go, what do you do? Well, you beat the ox. Dodger did not reply. Nanyue went on, are you studying seated meditation or are you studying seated Buddha?

[04:47]

That's an interesting point. If you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still. If you're studying seated Buddha, Buddha is no fixed mark. If you're studying Buddha, This is killing Buddha. If you're grasping the mark of sitting, you're not reaching its principle. The interesting point here that I want to actually talk about is, when you want to make the cart go, do you beat the ox or the cart? This is very key to this whole Go on. Do you beat the ox in the cart? Well, Dogen says, if you want to make the cart go, you beat the cart.

[05:52]

This is, of course, contrary to our usual way of thinking, because we usually think that the cart is one thing and the ox is another thing. So cart here means body, And aks means mind. Usually we think our way in and out of everything, but in Zazen we think with the body. The body thinks. Body and mind are not two different things. So the point here is actually body and mind are not two different things. Sitting and Buddha are not two different things. sitting still and we think that, of course, if you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still. Well, if it's not sitting still, what is it?

[06:56]

If you're studying seated Buddha, Buddha is no fixed mark. There's no special thing that you can say is the mark of Buddha. And sitting still is not sitting still. Even though we say sitting still, everything is moving. There's actually nothing that's sitting still, or not sitting still. This gives us a little problem for our dualistic way of thinking. Sitting still is not sitting still. Not sitting still is sitting still. So, why are you polishing this tile to make a Buddha? But you can't make a Buddha by polishing a tile. But Dogen says,

[08:03]

To make a Buddha, you make a Buddha by polishing a tile. There's a story of a koan, a very interesting koan, about Daitsu Chisho Buddha. Daitsu Chisho Buddha sat in meditation for numerous kalpas, yet he didn't become a Buddha. Why not? It's an easy answer, because you can't make a Buddha by sitting in meditation, but it's Buddhas who sit in meditation. It's not really meditation, it's zazen. Meditation, you know, Dogen says, zazen is not meditation. Zazen is not one of the meditations, because meditation is usually done for some purpose, to strengthen or to enhance or for some reason.

[09:15]

But Zazen is simply Zazen for the sake of Zazen, worthless in the world. In the realm of worldly values, Zazen is totally worthless. But in the realm of spiritual values, it's the most valuable thing, because there's nothing to gain. It's simply expressing the universal activity. So Suzuki Roshi always talked about zazen as, this is not to gain something, but it's to express Reality. This is your creative activity. When we let go of everything, body and mind, no separation.

[10:21]

Body, mind, and breath, no separation. Body, mind, breath, and universal activity. Cosmic activity, no separation. So, polishing a tile is Buddha's activity. You don't make a Buddha through your activity, but Buddha is your activity. When we sit zazen, it's Buddha's activity. It's not my activity. I am not sitting zazen. My zazen, my mind, my mind It's not your mind, yet your mind is going around, but Buddha is sitting. So even though the mind is churning out fantasies moment by moment, the body is sitting. The body is doing zazen, but we're very worried about the mind. So it's my mind, zazen mind, you know.

[11:27]

So we associate mind with consciousness, awareness. but body and mind are one thing. We do separate them. My body. I remember when Sukhagoshi was talking about my hand. Well, you mean I have another hand besides this hand? The hand is saying, do you think, when you say, this is my hand, sounds like you're talking about somebody else. because it's not necessary to say my hand. My hand is myself. So why do I say my hand? This is simply me, or simply belongs to the universe. So zazen is simply

[12:29]

giving yourself over to the universal activity, the cosmic activity, a great expression, cosmic activity. This is also called faith. You simply let go of everything and trust the universe. That's what faith is. There are different expressions of faith, of course, but basically, faith is to let go, totally let go, and trust. But if we don't, if we mistrust the universe, which is easy to do, because the world is totally an untrustworthy place. So, it's hard, you know, so it's hard to trust the world.

[13:38]

But we have to trust our place in the universe, in the cosmos, because what else can you do? then he can let go. So, zazen is Buddha expressing Buddha, which is cosmic activity. And when we sit in zazen, we're sitting in the center of the cosmos, body, breath, mind, and cosmic activity, all in one piece. So I think it's important for us, you know, that's why in Soto style of Zen, I have to say Soto style of Zen has a certain way of being very careful about how we take care of things.

[15:20]

Since everything is a part of myself, how do I take care of myself? basically taking care of our world is taking care of ourself. This is why it's so important to realize that we are actually caretakers of this world which is myself, extension of myself, and extension of the self of each one of us. It's really interesting how we keep digging away our foundation in this world in order to profit, to create profit, we dig away the foundation.

[16:25]

without worrying about that so much. It's hard to, but you know, each individual only lives a certain length of time, so what happens with other individuals who come after us, who cares? It's really too bad. by taking care of this world, taking care of our space. When we think about the world, it's impossible to deal with, and it leads us to despair. But the only way we can deal with it, not the only way, but our practice is to take care of our space. We start out taking care of are spaced in zazen, which is the smallest and the largest at the same time. It's macrocosm and microcosm at the same time.

[17:34]

It's the most confined activity and yet the biggest activity, the most wide activity at the same time. And then we take care of our zendo and the people we practice with, and then we widen that to take care of our family and our workplace and our school or whatever we come into contact with. So this is our small world, and if we can take care of our small world as ourself, that has repercussions throughout the whole world. We just don't know what our influence is in the world. We can't see that. But sometimes we do see it. Sometimes we do see it. And if we practice long enough, well, we realize that our practice of worthlessness

[18:45]

has influence in the world. Because we put so much value on material things, we lose the virtue of real life. I think I talked about this before, Suzuki Roshi talked about it, the difference between virtue and value. Value is what we put on material things. And virtue is what our deepest connection with the universe or the cosmos. And they're not the same thing. value is comparative, whereas virtue is not comparative.

[19:52]

We use the word virtue in this sense. I always ask people to always define your terms when you're talking about something, because otherwise you think I'm talking about something and then I think I'm talking about something else. So what I mean by virtue is that which is not compared to anything else. You are totally you. When Zen is Zen, you are you. Or when you are you, Zen is Zen. So, totally you means you as an expression of the cosmos without worrying about comparative values. Everything is equal in that sense. Body is equal to mind. We tend to think often that the body is simply a kind of container for the mind, and so the body walks around with the mind on top as a container.

[21:07]

But when you really go into it, you see that the body and mind are really one thing. And the body influences the mind, as well as the mind influencing the body. And the body also can lead the mind, as well as the mind leading the body. And the breath influences both body and mind. And everything around us influences body, mind, and breath. So our surroundings and our self is our bigger self. One time, I think it was Sasaki Roshi who said, in Japan, we used to teach children that, you see the moon? The moon is yourself. You are the moon.

[22:10]

Now we teach people, the moon is up there in the sky and I'm down here on the earth and we look at it through these little peepholes. Which is so, but it's not the only fact. The fact is that the moon is actually your mind. Thich Nhat Hanh says, the sun is my other heart. So we have this feeling that we're very limited, and of course we are limited. But at the same time, we're totally unlimited. Both limited and unlimited. Through our limitation, we can experience our unlimited body. So, I think it's very important how we take care of ourself and how we take care of our body and our surroundings and being respectful and kind to each other.

[24:20]

You know, In order not to be victim of exploitation or a victim of aggression or whatever, we have to be able to find our imperturbable center. which is called samadhi, so that we're always centered no matter what happens. Then we can appreciate everything around us, and we can actually help people. So, this expression of Buddha nature, Buddha, that is our zazen,

[25:35]

is what we have to offer to each other and to the world. Even though each one of us is separate, it's like the fingers of one hand. Even though the fingers are separate, it's still one hand. So we're all connected at the base. So maybe you have a question? Paul? It's a little off your current topic, but in the beginning you read that to study the Buddha is to kill the Buddha. I want to know how you understand that.

[26:42]

Well, you know, there's this saying, if you see a Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha. In other words, don't put another Buddha. It's like, don't gild the lily. Don't paint the lily with gold. In other words, don't take it literally. Yeah, is to kill the idea that there's some Buddha that you're trying to put on top of this Buddha, so not two Buddhas. They don't label anything. No, no, they're not two Buddhas. So if you try to gain Buddha, it's like putting another Buddha on top of your Buddha. you're trying to get from.

[27:44]

Yeah, it's like trying to put another tire on your car when there's one already there. Yeah, we never have the story. Yes, you should always be asking questions. This is an interesting point, because here you have two of the most well-known teachers in Zen, but one is the student of the other, and the one who was the student has been sanctioned already, right?

[29:00]

And yet the teacher is still questioning him. This is an interesting point because we say when a person has dharma transmission they are independent, they can teach independently, but this independence doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. It means that within the practice, since you do understand the practice, you understand that you can't just do whatever you want. We call it maverick teachers. So you have to understand that when you do something, even though you have permission to be independent, you're still connected to everyone else. You're still connected to your peers. You're still connected to all the other people in your lineage.

[30:04]

So you have to be responsible as well as independent. And taking that a little farther, I wonder about what you suggest about that kind of questioning within one's family and among one's friends. It should happen all the time. Zen dialogue should be happening all the time. one way or another. One way or another it does happen, even though it doesn't happen maybe in conversation, but it happens sometimes subliminally, it happens sometimes with body language, or it just, you know, suddenly there'll be a moment when there's an incident and a question and answer and boom, like that. I'm premeditated.

[31:07]

I don't know who's first, but ... So, as that sort of Buddhism is taking root in the United States, and particularly in California, I wonder how necessary it is to beat the cart, or beat the horse. Is it possible to sort of ask the cart, or ask the horse, sort of nicely? You know, sort of like using the ... the paramita of patience, of persistence. You know about the four horses? The first horse is the really, really good horse. And without even having to say anything, that horse gallops off on the race. The second horse is more like, well, you know, kind of a little bit hesitant. that horse has to be coaxed to do something. Then there's the third horse, which is kind of, yes, no, yes, no, you kind of question, you know, and hard to get him to move, you know, and so you have to do something to get that horse moving, right?

[32:21]

little bit of whipping. The fourth horse can't do anything. Everything that the fourth horse does doesn't work. But the other horses, you have to kind of do something. Whipping is kind of like, don't take it literally, In Zen, you can't take anything literally. Whipping, you know, but, you know, you could do whipping. Get in there! Sometimes with a stick, you know. Go, go, go! Okay, okay, don't hit me! So, but, you know, like Suzuki Roshi said, the fourth horse is probably the best horse, you know. So, it's not like we're being mean to people, but you have to do something to motivate people. Yesterday we were talking about the paramita of patience and endurance and perseverance, and so the idea of eating the side of the cart or the ox, I wonder whether there's

[33:39]

without the beating? Yes, sure, of course, skillful means, you use whatever means works. So when you say beat the horse, you're taking it literally, you know. They're not method, it's only responding to circumstances. Okay, so have you ever been beaten by me? Not yet. Patience is very important. Patience means waiting forever for somebody to come around. So that's the other side. Yes. I wonder if I was the car driver, would I just wait until the ox is sort of ready to move and sort of be there with intention, my intention and my, you know, my sort of compassion for the ox to be there with it. That's right. In this old town in Italy, right, there was this driver, you know, who just waited for the horse to move and everybody went by.

[34:55]

Pretty soon everybody got older, you know, and they poured bronze over both the driver and the cart and the horse. It's a monument in the city. No, I'm only kidding. God, do you hear those birds? Because we're laughing, they're singing. Anyway. Yes, you just use whatever, you know, patience, whatever. But, did you ever try to drive an ox? I have, I have herded cows and have ran away from a bull. Well, what if you just stood there? The bull actually was motivating you. Ron had his hand up, everyone had to go through him. Of course. Zuki Roshi's wife was angry at him because he kept pushing and pushing because he wanted to teach his students and ignore his body, even though his body was dying.

[36:30]

Well, this is one of the points that actually kind of motivated me to do this, but I didn't want to get down to that. You know, the old monastic ideal, you know, begging your food, and just eat whatever is given to you once a day. And it's a kind of ascetic quality of disregarding the body. And that's been a kind of prevalent idea throughout monastic history, is that you don't worry about the body. you know, like you're going to leave the world and you don't want to get attached to the body. But actually, if you get sick, you know, that's a kind of attachment. You get a kind of attachment to the body when you get sick. And when Suzuki Roshi came to America, people were into macrobiotics and eating well and taking care of exercising and all this.

[37:42]

He thought it was good. But he couldn't change over because of his upbringing. But he thought it was a good idea for us to do that, but we do, and I do too. And I was gonna say, you know, that we really, it's good for us to take care of our bodies. And especially this aging community. The whole world is an aging community. We really have to take care of ourselves, and not just for our own sake, but for the sake of everybody around us. And when we don't take care of ourselves, then other people have to take care of us. And we can't practice unless we take care of ourselves. This is a body practice. That's in body practice. So it behooves us to really take care of ourselves so we can practice, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[38:53]

I don't believe in neglecting our body and starving, not starving, but just eating anything and whatever comes, because we shouldn't be worried about the body. not worried about the body, we will start worrying about the body when it starts complaining. But that can be a kind of noble posture, but I think we should take care of ourselves. I think we should exercise and we should stretch and we should be careful what we eat. But it's really hard in this society because this is the great smorgasbord of the world. I mean, we're just inundated with the most delicious fare that you can imagine. Everything is here.

[39:53]

The whole world's food, gourmet, is right here. You can't walk down the street without being tempted in some way. To do that takes discipline. It really takes discipline. My question is similar to Ron's for the same topic. Isn't there another way of working with the body? Buddha said, guard the sense doors, and part of that was, my understanding is that we should be careful what Yeah, well, we eat with our ears and we eat with our eyes and our mind and with our touch and with our nose, you know. All of the senses are our mouths, you know, and so we get needy.

[41:02]

Wasn't that the original intent behind being ascetic, was to draw the attachment to all the affair? Originally, yeah, to being ascetic, but you can go too far. So, you know, we should be able to enjoy, you know, every discipline at some point goes way over to one side and becomes extreme, so we have to be careful about And this is one aspect of middle way, is not to go to one extreme or the other. So asceticism is a kind of one extreme going to the sparse side, and indulgence is the other side. So how do you have a reasonable way of doing things? Right?

[42:08]

I think that the point is, how do you get to a reasonable way of balancing? I think that's the main point. So we stay healthy, stay alert, stay light, you know, and not get bogged down or attached hard. But I think that's what we, if we encourage each other to do that, it'd be very good because you have to have encouragement. It's really hard to do it on your own, Bob. way of practicing. And I think if you do that, then you eat well and exercise well.

[43:17]

I think sometimes you can get into a policy of denial where, well, if I eat well, if I do this, then my body will be okay. But if you just balance your body moment by moment, at a certain point, things start, it doesn't feel good to overindulge. it becomes more satisfying to balance. I think that's right, when the satisfaction comes from the balance instead of from falling over to one side or the other. So I want to encourage myself to do that as well, because I find myself getting off balance. I have to, you know, keep getting, make some effort to whip my horse, my cart, I mean. Encourage my cart and whip my horse. Yes? Or offer a carrot.

[44:19]

Offer what? Sometimes the carrot works and sometimes the stick works. There's no rule, but gentle persuasion is good. Yes, it's like the story of the moon and the sun and the wind. The sun and the wind were having a competition to see who could make the shepherd take off his coat. So the wind's, oh, OK, he's putting on his coat, you know? God, it's really getting cold here. And the sun comes out, and he goes, oh, it's really getting hot, you know? And he takes off his coat. So, you know, a little sunshine is good, persuasive, more persuasive. But sometimes you need the wind.

[45:21]

You know, Ellen? between you and Eric, the laughter seems a little nervous. And I think that we get into this realm of political correctness about, in this case, it's about language of domination. What you were saying was, don't take it literally. I do have a concern that we want to denature our language. We want to take the edge out of our language, which takes the edge out of how we work with ourselves. So it's like, I'm not going to go and beat the cart, and I'm also probably not going to go and beat the ox, but if I was standing there in the middle of the storm and the ox wasn't going, I'll bet I would.

[46:29]

But the question is, can we actually have an open discourse that includes the whole range of our gently persuade the ox, or talk nice to it, because it's not going to work all the time. So we have to be able to entertain a full range of human activity, and particularly to learn the language. So that may not be so, it's hardly comfortable for me to say it, but it's comfortable to talk about it.

[47:33]

I thought that's what we were saying. I'm not sure what I was feeling in the room was comforting. That's all. Barbara? This is really what I wanted to respond to, but just in you saying that, yeah, I feel that the encroachment of the legal system, because if you sock too much stuff in this world, trust me, you will be contained, you know, and so having to send the horses upon me, so there's always that kind of little thing. You know, I work in a public school system. It's everything. You know, but from my experience with horses that don't go the way that I would prefer, they are I think that they don't go because they hope to be able to respond to their true nature at some point and feel as though the person, the mind that's steering them is whipping them away from that.

[49:00]

But at some point, depending on the kindness and the love of the teacher, it dawns on them the wild horse that, dang, you're trying to get me lined up here. Okay, let's race then. But it's hard to get with all the noise of things that happen in the world around us. And all these people were tugging at it, and yelling at it, and pushing at it. And what he did was he just went around and he took his tail, and he tugged on it.

[50:03]

As soon as he tugged his tail, he went forward. That's a good point.

[50:09]

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