Well, we just finished our Bodhisattva ceremony of acknowledging our karma and renewing our intentions and reciting the precepts. And it's appropriate when we recite the precepts to talk about the precepts. And the first of the ten clear mind precepts is not to kill. And I think it's an appropriate precept for the situation that's in the air today, given the publicity and problem associated with Mr. Harris and the governor and the whole situation of how we feel about retribution.

[01:22]

This is a subject that I haven't really dealt with so much because I've kind of avoided it. You know, something in the newspapers, something between the state and the criminals. But somehow I think right now it's unavoidable and needs to be addressed. And for me, I need to address it myself and decide what my feelings are. Not just my feelings, but my feelings and my mind. Because my feelings and my mind may not match. My thinking and my feelings may not be the same. And when it comes to death penalty, retribution of this kind, I have mixed feelings." Buddha's precept says, don't take life.

[02:34]

And Buddha says, don't... He says too, in the Dharmapada, to address ill-will with love and kindness rather than retaliation. So this is Buddhist understanding that we don't give back ill-will when ill-will comes our way, but when ill-will comes our way we respond with metta or loving-kindness. But when something happens, when innocent people are killed in atrocious ways, then our feelings come up.

[03:51]

Our feelings of retribution and our feelings are mixed. And I know that with everyone, our feelings are mixed. And yet, if we only go by our feelings, then we get caught by feelings. And I know that in my own case, if I only go by feelings, I want to do something vengeful. That feeling comes up in me, to be vengeful. to see justice administered. But there's some difference between justice and vengeance, a big difference. I'm not sure that we know what justice is, actually, what is really just.

[04:55]

Maybe there isn't any justice. Maybe there's only just the way things are. So, I thought this over as much as I could since yesterday afternoon, which isn't a lot of time, but it's not like it's a new subject. Some of the things that come up for me are, there's so much killing by the state. I don't mean the state of California, but the country, the administration of the country, the state, that goes unpunished, that goes unacknowledged. We're murdering people right and left.

[06:07]

We've been doing it forever. in the name of just causes. We even had a little war called Just Cause. And that exonerates our murderous attitude. But we can focus on one person and who's done something on their own. without authority from someone else. Taking his own as a person, taking their own authority, and taking somebody's life. But if we're authorized by the state to take millions of lives, or thousands of lives, we don't see it as murder. It's exonerated. There's no retribution.

[07:07]

Of course, the retribution is our own karma, which people don't usually take into account. And when there's an executioner, that person has to deal with their own karma, whether it's just cause or not. And then the executioner does something in our name. for us, for the population in our state. How many of us would actually do that after ourself? We can hire somebody else to do it. Somebody says, it's okay with me. Don't mean nothing to me. So thinking this through, I realize for myself that there has to be some consequence for our actions.

[08:27]

For whenever we do something, there's a consequence. And so, since we don't want people to kill each other, we have to have some strong consequence for when we do. But it doesn't really keep people from killing each other. This is the problem. Even though we have a death penalty, it doesn't keep people from killing each other. If we don't have a strong consequence, then it makes it easier. But it's a very complicated question. And on the other hand, somewhat simple. So my feeling is that it's better not to kill them.

[09:42]

better not to take someone else's life, another life, and to permit the state to do even more killing. The more killing the state does, the easier it is for the state to kill. And the easier it is for the state to kill, the more people will kill each other. Look at Oakland. And the manufacturers of weapons and their associations say, guns don't kill people, people kill people. That's a kind of interesting equation. But there's a third part. which nobody ever says, and that's that people kill people with guns.

[10:52]

We keep handing all this stuff to people and they keep killing each other. This is where the focus should be on how to educate people, how to create built on benevolence rather than greed and delusion and ill will. So the problem comes a great deal from the top. People at the bottom just follow the example from the top, whether they want to or not. And until What happens if the head of the state changes, it would just get worse.

[11:59]

So we have this focus on this one person and what to do with him. It's not necessary to kill it. It's probably not a good idea. It just brings up more ill will. It creates more and more ill will. But nevertheless, when something like this happens, it brings up a lot of different feelings, mixed feelings. So rather than focus on what to do with this person, maybe better to focus on how to create a more benevolent society. In Japan, this is very rare, that people murder each other like this.

[13:14]

Anyway, I'd just kind of like to open it up a little bit to see how you may feel like sharing some feelings and how you feel about it. Yeah. For feelings, something like vengeance is one definitely, you know, what he did to those kids. Jerry Brown had an idea. Yeah. Some people would enjoy it, and others wouldn't. Anyway, thank you. Unfortunately, we've seen so much killing on television, I'm not sure it would take quite a, you know, quite a masterful production to bring home to people that this is real, and this is one person that all of us are authorized

[14:27]

In truth, we have seen so much make-believe and real killing on TV. I'm not sure. But you know, Sojourn, these two boys, or teenage boys that Harris evidently does not deny killing in the most horrific way, were left behind, of course, a family. Both of them. evidently suffering real agonies of pain and painful memories. And as I understand, perhaps someone else knows in more detail, they or some of them or the spokesman for them will say that they will rest easier if the person who killed their sons is himself killed. know, their torment.

[15:32]

The other day, too, the newspaper or the San Francisco Examiner ran a photograph of Harris when he was a boy of seven or eight, next to his photograph as an adult. And the story went on to say that he had himself been abused, including perhaps a medical condition from a mother who imbibed alcohol. And a colleague of mine said, but where's the pictures of the little, of the teenage boys when they were seven and eight? Where's their faces to evoke, you know, the sympathy or whatever of the public? It's very difficult. There's some kind of punishment, it seems to me. My feeling is that but some kind of severe punishment.

[16:33]

Well, it's not like he's going to be left free either. You know, I mean, maybe it's going to be a punishment that he's going to go through for the rest of his life with some type of imprisonment. Some people seem to have a feeling, well, without the death penalty, he's going to be a free person. And that's the case. That's the case. My 10-year-old son said, If he dies, then he doesn't get to feel the punishment. I picked up listening to the Governor and watching on TV the other night when he did not grant clemency. He said that, should he grant clemency, that this would be to excuse what he did. And I mean, that out of his whole talk jumped out at me. that just by not killing him is excusing what he did.

[18:49]

I mean, we can't excuse what he did, but I don't feel that I want to kill him either. I'm very upset and appalled by this full class penalty. I'm a lawyer, and I participate I do have compassion for the family of these two young teenagers. I've been watching them on the television. And they do keep saying that they want it to be over. a punishment that at some point is over, and the people who are victimized know that it's over, and that something has happened, so-called justice has taken place.

[20:06]

I feel very anxious about all of it. What comes to mind is compassion, and how do we bring compassion to all points? this situation, the situation in Oakland. I feel deeply sad and scared. There's some fear there. The day after the thing in Oakland happened, I was walking downtown in Oakland, and several of the shopkeepers had black ribbons and handed me notices in case each of their buildings but that somehow compassion seems to come in the door from you, going deeply into that somehow.

[21:41]

And it feels important to leave out some sense of needing to revenge, and how that seems to need to be looked at by each one of us. But at the same time, how to not have that be the main threat in situations of cancer. I actually think that the attempt of the so-called criminal justice system is, in some sense, to quantify this kindness and measure it out in some way so that it's somewhat equal.

[22:57]

And I wonder if There are people of ill will. There are people who are brutal and violent on both sides of the bars. But there are also, even among them, even them are sort of trying to do their best in a way we don't find acceptable. And when I think about the ordeal of the families of these victims, I wonder, that there has not been a decision. That if there had been a decision 13 years ago, regardless of what the decision was, if it had been execution or if it had been life imprisonment, then the decision would have been made. But they have to live their lives in the fishbowl of this

[24:03]

also on death row facing just in California, people are being very slow and methodical, and in some sense that may be very kind, and in another sense it's very Personally, I can say when I'm in a situation, I don't know how to stop it.

[26:00]

God bless America. We have a lot of tribes around here, whereas the Japanese are one tribe.

[27:57]

And they want to keep it that way. And they don't treat the people who aren't very well. That's right, too. But they don't kill them. You know, I'm not familiar with this. We're talking about something that happened in Oakland, and I don't know what... I haven't had a chance to really pay attention to the news, so I don't know what we're talking about. Two days ago, the Oakland Tribune had five people murdered. Five people murdered in the city overnight from, I think, Wednesday night to Thursday morning. Including the wife of a high Oakland police official. Who, by the way, killed his own wife. I just want to say something about living in Oakland.

[29:00]

actually being real close to a lot of this stuff. I have teenage children. And my youngest daughter has had 20 of her friends buried last year. And this is not new. One of the things I think I've gotten an example to look up to is that in my neighborhood, there have been many murders. And one of the murders that happened recently was A girl was kidnapped and tortured by some gang members. And subsequently, those same people, they believe, wiped out her family. And that wasn't too far from my house. The parents of those, the relatives of the people who were killed, said they didn't want any retribution for this. They felt like this stuff has got All of this really upsets me on a big level because I feel like until there's some big media event, nobody is really paying attention to what's happening to ordinary people on a daily basis.

[30:18]

I mean, I came home from work about three weeks ago to find a bullet in my door. After I realized that it wasn't against me, then I relaxed about it. And I realized it was a straight bullet. But I hear gunfire in my neighborhood. I hear gunfire. It's not funny. I hear gunfire in my neighborhood almost every day. The thing is, I just think that the whole fabric of society has been so unraveled. And I know that I feel a lot of violence inside of myself. I had to ask myself in the light of what's happening with Harris, under what circumstances do you feel justified in killing another human being? And I think that, for most of us, is when you're immediately threatened. Because I feel if someone were coming at me, then maybe I'd kill them if I thought they were going to kill me. On the other hand, when I look at him and people like him, I feel an incredible amount of sorrow about what it is that they go through to be at the level where they feel like they have to kill someone.

[31:23]

I mean, that's horrible. I have as much pity for them as I do for the boys that he killed in the woods that day. I mean, this man is in a living hell. You know, people that feel like they have to be pushed to this level are living in a hellish existence. I'm really glad that I'm not them. You know, I mean, whether we kill him or not, the man is living in hell. And I don't think that, you know, if you put him in the gas chamber, I don't think that he doesn't get to suffer. Because to die in that way is really an ugly death. I mean, the way I've heard it described, it's horrible. for anybody to witness. And the families that they say they're going to go and see this happen, and that they'll feel better, well, they're not going to feel better, they're going to feel worse. They're going to feel terrible for the rest of their lives. And so, I mean, I don't know how to react to this. Like, I frankly have gone from one side to the other about the death penalty, and right now, you know, because it's actually happening in my lifetime,

[32:26]

Although the one in Arizona, I think I remember that guy begged to die at one point. But to just see it happening in front of you, and being confronted with it, I realized that I don't want the death penalty under any circumstance. Because it dehumanizes everybody in society. And I don't know, I've just seen enough of killing myself, personally. And I'd like to see it stopped. It seems to me that that we're letting things die or being witness to killing every minute. Certainly, it's happening all around us. It's happening with the children. They're not being cared for. And we can't blame it all on the state if we create the state

[33:30]

I can't, I can't even imagine what it's like to bring yourself, what it must, the horror of being Harris from the time he was born. But we're seeing children every day, and for those of us who teach, you know, you look at 28 or 29 children, and you know that many of them aren't going to live to adulthood, or, and some of them will probably end up killing someone or ending up their life in jail. And you talk to the nursery school teachers and they say it's just, you know, they're getting two and three year olds that are just so damaged already that they don't know what to do. They don't know how to control Harris was kicked out of his mother's stomach.

[34:45]

But what do you mean by that? I guess she delivered due to violence by the father. But I guess I always wonder, after we do all this thinking about what's right, and try It's almost impossible for me to imagine the world not being exceedingly violent. That includes nature. So it would seem in societies people have always killed enemies and even local people, wherever we have records.

[36:01]

So it would seem, coming back to the Buddha, And we're here for a short time. How can we situate ourselves in that? How can we find it's very hard to reckon with that, to keep a balance between the precepts of Buddha and the estimate that society is never going to be non-violent.

[37:37]

Yeah. But it's true that violence will always be, but there are times when it's high and times when it's low. And even though, you know, the good and the bad will always be vying with each other, we still have to take a side to do something even though it's never complete. So, When I was a kid, if there was one murder in the town, in the city, it was big news. It was big news. It was big news all over the country. Now, it's just business as usual.

[38:42]

You don't even hear about most of it. So it's really incredible. There are times and there are situations where the country is more at ease with itself. And I think each one of us as an individual has to work on ourselves, of course, but with many people working on themselves, there's a collective energy that tips the balance and influences our lives. So I don't think we have to fall into despair, but we should realize that violence will always be with us. But there's always one person that we can work on, and that's ourself.

[39:48]

And that's optimistic. Well, I wanted to say that by the state, by its highest authority, in our society, the state, says that killing is a way to handle this. This is how we solve this difficult problem. That doesn't stop the killing. That sends a message to other people. Oh, this is how they do it. So in a way, it continues. It starts to continue that kind of thing rather than put an end to it. the violent countries. I have a sister who's a police officer.

[41:45]

I was a police officer for a short while. And in speaking to her, there's a continuing degradation going on out there, where children are being stopped for minor infractions. The incidences are escalating far beyond even what they I always try to look for solutions, and I don't have solutions. The parable of two priests who are confronted with a barking dog comes to mind, where one priest starts chanting and praying, and the dog keeps barking. And the other priest says, well, here, let me try. See what I can do. I feel that the problem is far deeper than just the murder rate.

[43:00]

The murder rate is the top of the pyramid, and it spreads out from there. That when you have a 15-year-old child who's the son of a police officer himself, a serious situation. He's very serious. And so it would be much cheaper, actually, to have the person in jail for the rest of their life, if we assume for a second that the person will not escape and then go out and do the crime again, which is, I guess, the bottom line, what people fear.

[44:43]

And also that they, I mean, these are just some people that get caught, but the number of people that get caught you know, do murders all the time without ever getting caught. And I think following up what you were saying, I think that the question of, I think it is related to the question of diversity and Western countries becoming, absorbing all this mass influx of of waves of sort of things that have ripples and effects over long periods of time. And so I think it's a question of greed and how do we share our wealth, how do developed people and developed countries share their wealth and their education and their skills with

[46:03]

people in underdeveloped countries, and then people within the same country from different classes. And it's interesting that how, you know, the right-wing view, there's two views of justice. You know, there's the right-wing view of justice, and there's the left-wing view of justice. And the right-wing view of justice is law and order. You know, Republicans are always emphasizing law and order. And the left-wing, the Democrats, always emphasizing compassion for the disadvantaged. And there seems to be, I hate to sound simplistic, but there seems to be a balance between these two positions as far as how it relates to the leaders and the people both taking responsibility for the state of affairs. and people who are leading a society, the industrialists, the corporate heads, et cetera, who are not just wealthy because they've stolen money from the poor.

[47:14]

I think that sort of view has been kind of failed. They also are in that position because of their effort and their skills else. And then also the people willing to, if what that work is, is not the same for each person, in a sense.

[48:26]

Rather, how you define it is not the same. The work is the same. So we sit dazen. That's one way that we work on ourselves. And it's important to be able to do that, because it just brings us in touch with ourselves. Because often, what's going on around us, the other morning, 3 o'clock in the morning, I saw lights go on in other houses and I'd lay awake for an hour and just trying to understand what my feelings were and to try to understand what, imagine what might have gone on in an encounter between two people where that was the outcome.

[49:32]

It may have been somebody just And so we can work ourselves here. But again, to meet all this question of diversity is so powerful, and it's not just Western, and it's not just the United States. I just came from Asia, and where I was because the small differences that they identify between themselves are willing to kill each other and quite justifiably so. So, walking through the world as if everybody was you, that's the hardest thing. Walking through the world to meet everybody in that same way, even people that you're afraid of.

[50:40]

And there are lots of people that I'm afraid of. But when you actually meet face to face, to meet them as yourself, to me that's part of the work, that's part of the way to work on myself. And it's really hard. Thank you for your sharing.

[51:14]

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