Okay, so Avalokiteshvara states in the very beginning of this sutra that understanding, realizing, emptiness of the skandhas relieves suffering. So once again, what are the skandhas? It's really all of our experience as an individual person. For example, our body form, feelings, perceptions, thought constructions or formations, and consciousness, which is awareness. So realizing that all these are empty, we're relieved of suffering. So is that true for you or what does it mean to you when you hear that? And how do you practice with the knowledge that what we experience is empty.

[01:04]

So tonight, I'm just gonna first finish up the last bit of this list of emptinesses that's in the Sutra. So for example, towards the end of this list, let me get there. We talked last week about the 12-fold chain of dependent origination. All those links in the chain are empty. No old age and death and the extinction of old age and death are all empty. And then the Sutra goes on to say, no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path. So I'm sure all that sounds very familiar to people what that is, the Four Noble Truths.

[02:08]

And that was the Buddha's very first teaching. And so what does it mean that these basic truths are empty? So I'd like to talk a little bit about Nagarjuna, who was our 14th Indian ancestor, and he was born somewhere probably in the second century of the Common Era. He was an Indian scholar, practitioner, and he was considered the most important philosopher since Gautama Buddha. The reason that I'm even bringing him up is because he's known for his teaching on emptiness, shunyata, emptiness.

[03:10]

And so I wanna talk a little bit about how his thinking came around or his understanding. His contribution is basically the systemization and deepening of the Prajnaparamita teaching. And he was the founder of what's called the Madhyamaka school, which means really the middle way school. And the word Madhyama means middle. So he wrote His famous important work was Verses on the Middle Way, and it's a lot of four-line verses that use a certain kind of logic to prove that nothing has an intrinsic existence.

[04:20]

Nothing has an inherent existence, including nothing. And that's very important because when people hear about emptiness, they hear, okay, you and your problems, your body, your mind, your family, it's all empty. And that sounds like a real, that can be a spiritual bypass or a way of not facing reality. Even though it's true, you don't wanna just land there. So then, Well, you don't want to land on either side, I mean. So you know that, say the body, the body hurts perhaps tonight. The body does not have intrinsic existence, but you also can't say that the body does not exist because that's a whole nother opinion

[05:29]

that people hold onto, get very attached to that idea. And that's not what Nagarjuna's teaching is. I'm gonna read just two pieces from this verses on the middle way. This is at the very beginning before the real verses start, and they're called dedicatory verses. And if you happen to be in my study group, This is not the same version of the dedicatory verse that we chant every month when we meet. This is actually a translation by Shohaka Okamura Roshi. So this is what is said before the verses begin. I pay homage to the fully awakened one. the supreme teacher who has taught the doctrine of relational origination, the blissful cessation of all phenomenal thought constructions.

[06:37]

Therein, every event is marked by non-origination, non-extinction, non-destruction, non-permanence, non-identity, non-differentiation, non-coming into being, not going out of being. So Nagarjuna begins with this premise that things only exist in this relational way with their opposites. And this is something that Sojin Roshi talked about all the time. And this turns up in the Heart Sutra. For example, high only exists in relation to low. Pure exists only in relation to impure. And we know that from the Heart Sutra.

[07:41]

It keeps saying neither tainted nor pure. They neither increase nor decrease. These are all relational constructions. So this is how Nagarjuna shows us the emptiness of the world. And this is also what the Heart Sutra is telling us. So there's no such thing as pure or impure. Pure is a concept and compares to something. So in Nagarjuna's work, He lists five pairs of dichotomies and I'll give you a few examples are birth and death, one and many, identity and differentiation, coming and going, delusion and enlightenment.

[08:41]

And these are things we get caught in all the time. We want to get rid of delusion, we want to be enlightened. So a wise person goes beyond any view or preconception, including Buddhist viewpoints. So shunyata is the ultimate principle here, emptiness. And in the Madhyamika school, emptiness is twofold. It means both empty of self or empty of something. Empty of self we are. And also it means liberation. Liberation because the realization of emptiness

[09:45]

is how we realize freedom. So we have to let go of believing either in the affirmation or the negation, that they're both part of the reality that we live in. In fact, we have to understand, as I said before, the emptiness of emptiness. There's a whole book called The Emptiness of Emptiness, by the way. It's a history, it's the title, and it's a history of Mahayana Buddhism. So, Okamura Roshi says we must see reality from both sides without being caught in either side. And that's what's meant by form is not different from emptiness.

[10:49]

By negating independent being, we become free from attachment to body and mind. However, freedom from attachment is not enough. We live in this relative world and we have deep connections to other people, animals, places, ideas. So Avalokiteshvara represents compassion because through wisdom we see that all is empty and through compassion we come back to the relative truth. How do I help others? This is our bodhisattva vow, helping others. living in this relative world of samsara.

[11:54]

So I'll stop for a moment and see, does anyone have any question or comment or anything based on that? Ross. I'm trying to find a word that will help me hold not this and not that, and I'm wondering if provisional would be an apt term for seeing both sides, like a side appears and disappears, and that it's like there's a provisional relationship between things that keeps us

[12:59]

not attached to it being just this way, that for the time being, it's that, is that? That could be, that could be a helpful word, provisional. I wanna read actually in response partly to what you're saying, but in Nagarjuna's book on the verses of the middle way, Here is one verse, I think this is verse number 40, because I like the word dependent arising. So Nagarjuna says, whoever sees dependent arising also sees suffering and its arising and its cessation as well as the path. Whoever sees dependent arising also sees suffering and its arising and its cessation as well as the path.

[14:16]

So Nagarjuna's point is that we have to see everything through dependent arising. or interdependent origination, same thing. The things don't arise of themselves. Is that a reference to the 12 causal links? Is it arising? Yes. Yes, the 12 links, it's kind of like almost a flow chart. of how we get where we are. How do we get born? How do we die? How do we suffer? That's the main one of interest. I went through that last week a bit about the part, there's a part in the chain which is particularly helpful to observe

[15:33]

in one's mind, and that is the part between feeling and grasping. They're two separate links. Feeling arises out of sensation, okay? Feeling arise, and what is feeling? Liking, disliking, or neutral. But basically it's mostly liking and disliking. That's feeling. But then what happens is grasping. I wanna get rid of this thing I don't like, or I've gotta have this. Grasping is where most problems arise. Ryushin, I saw your hand up. I saw your hand up for you, Shin.

[16:36]

Thank you, Karen. I think my question to you may be a little off track from what you're doing, so please feel free to just say that and we can talk about it another time. As you were describing the five dualities, if you will, that Nagarjuna points to, I was thinking about something else I've been reading about that. in Suzuki Roshi, and about how those two things actually could be seen as fully, equally penetrating each other. And it made me think of Kaz Tanahashi's translation of sinyata as boundlessness. And so I wanted to see what you had to say in response to that. Well, I've read most of Tanahashi's book. A lot of people really like that word boundlessness instead of emptiness because emptiness includes everything.

[17:43]

So in that sense, I can see how the word boundless could be helpful. I don't know if it works for everyone. I mean, I actually Don't care for it, but that's just a personal thing, I think. What do you think? Well, just to ask a follow-up, I think of the negation as being separating. Uh-huh. But I think of boundlessness as being connecting. So it makes my mind less likely to fall into a nihilistic idea about things or a reified... This idea about emptiness is some kind of high holy state where there's no problem. And really to embrace, if you will, the middle way, because the middle way includes everything and includes delusion and includes enlightenment and everything else. So I find it a provocatively helpful.

[18:46]

But I wondered if you saw it in contrast or in opposition to how you've been studying the Heart Sutra and Nagarjuna. Thank you. It's definitely not in opposition, as long as one understands the word boundless to include everything. That's all I would say, but I had a real big problem with this negating for the first 20 years of my Zen study. I found it really depressing to be saying no over and over again. And so when I spoke to Sojin about it, he said it's more like moo, you know, neither yes nor no, which is the middle way, really. It's neither yes nor no. So I would say,

[19:52]

to people who are experimenting with different words and translations. You know, boundlessness helps you understand that all these things are empty. Like all in this community room here, we've got all sorts of forms of emptiness sitting here. You know, and all objects of emptiness and books of emptiness. So, and this Zoom screen of emptiness. So as long as one understands that it really means everything as opposed to just what you like. I mean, to me, sometimes boundless sounds like all the good things. It's always often in a positive light, but you know, that might just be my personal slant. And if anyone else has ideas about that, or maybe a word that is more helpful to you, then I'd love to hear it.

[21:02]

Rich? Thanks, Karen. I guess maybe just on that note, sometimes it's useful for me to think about like the tool that I use with the negation is like to think of Manjushri and his sword. Like, no, like, no, like, just to get through my bullshit sometimes, like, because of my dualistic tendencies, it's useful to think of that as a, like, actual negation. Like, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no, like, no, no, no. Like, come back to what's true. Just a thought. I feel like the Manjushri and the Zenda, though, is not as useful because he doesn't have any arms to wield his sword. But that's something, something else. I wanted to just note that the quote from Nagarjuna, the verse from Nagarjuna where he quoted him saying, whoever sees dependent origination sees suffering. And I feel like that seems important because he could have said, whoever sees dependent origination could see boundlessness, right?

[22:13]

It seems like he's... bringing us into the relative with that. And I don't remember the sort of second two verses, so I'm wondering if you could maybe say those again. I'll just say the whole thing. Whoever sees dependent arising also sees suffering and its arising and its cessation as well as the path. So that's the four noble truths that come out of dependent arising. And that's why, because it's dependently arisen, that's why he's saying no. No to intrinsic, permanent existence. And I really like, I've always been a fan of Manchur Shri. I like that particular, you know, comparison with that sword that cuts through delusion, because it's all delusion.

[23:17]

Anything else, Rich? No, that's great. Thanks, Karen. Kabir? I do like the word emptiness and in the West, emptiness. I was chatting with my boss, actually. She knows my practice. And when I said emptiness, she goes, no, my mind is pretty full. Because they think that emptiness is sort of like nothingness. I do like the word balances, but for me, emptiness has a little bit of a mystery to it. It's not the exact word, but emptiness, to me, it is not nothingness. It has a bit of a mystery. It does include the negative and the positive. I kind of have to agree with you with boundlessness. I don't know, boundlessness, it does sound a little bit too positive, it might mean as well.

[24:21]

But emptiness, it kind of sort of like includes everything, kind of like the sky. The sky is empty, but everything is there. Yes. And I think it's also with our mind. Are you hearing everything in the Zoom room? So-so. Well, Kabir, everyone's gonna have to speak a little louder. Kabir was saying that he also feels that the term boundlessness is a little bit of rosy glasses. A little bit, maybe. But... Emptiness is more, I like... Emptiness for me is a little mysterious. It's kind of like I can describe emptiness more like the sky or our mind or our consciousness. Everything fits in there, but yet it's not all forms, but it's form and emptiness coexisting.

[25:33]

Thank you. Did you all hear Kabir the second time? Okay, good. I'm going to go back and forth between Zoom and here. So, Charlie. Thank you, Karen. I just was wondering, is liberation empty? Yes. Thank you. I might get myself in trouble there. The Heart Sutra says no attainment. So if you're attached to an idea of liberation, it's empty. Because liberation, in liberation, the self is dropped, the body and mind are dropped. So there's not like me and my liberation, or so and so,

[26:40]

liberated there's an awareness of selflessness which is actually what's liberating but attainment is empty whether it comes automatically or through mind operation well realization can come in different ways yes all right thank you karen maria teresa well i am thinking of my teacher ron nester telling me again and again emptiness emptiness of a separate self you know and so when i hear that word emptiness it's like oh yes it means not only boundless, but it means also everything.

[27:40]

Coming in at once together. I hope that's correct, Ron. He's got his thumbs up. You've learned something, Maria Teresa. Marley. Thank you, Karen. I think, excuse me. I think I also find something, I guess, appealing about the word emptiness. I really get something out of that part a little later in the sutra about all this emptiness means no hindrance in the mind. How do I put this? Okay, I'm going to bring up some other Nagarjuna for a second.

[28:41]

I'll keep it simple. I know there's a part in those verses on the middle way where he talks about how bad would it be if nothing was empty? And everything would be kind of like frozen like an ice cube. It could never change. You could never see it from another side. And for me, I feel like I can get caught in my head and I can see the world that way. So it is good to remember that that can be empty too. And when I'm looking at obstacles, it feels like a good word. When I'm looking at things that feel good, maybe sometimes it feels like a bad word. It's always different and maybe everything's always different. So thank you. Thank you, Marley. Yeah, that verse from Nagarjuna really stood out to me too. I mean, wouldn't it be awful if things were permanent? I remember Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche said, if we live forever, everyone would commit suicide.

[29:47]

You know? That's what he said. Pauline? There's an interesting full-length book, Nagarjuna, which is called Nagarjuna's philosophy of openness. and openness is the particular word that scholar chose to translate shunyata. I don't think there's any one particular word that no one has to land on, but openness is interesting to me because it does seem to hit on kind of the same thing as boundlessness, the inability to draw a fixed and static boundary around everything without having the connotation of boundlessness where you sort of get them thinking, everything's like infinite, which maybe it is, but it is, kind of a current that you don't necessarily want to get. Hold on. Well, that's interesting. Thank you. I'll have to check out the book. The Guardian's Philosophy of Openness. It was written in the 80s or 90s. It's an academic philosophy book, but you can find it at libraries. I want to actually, since we're on the topic of Nagarjuna, just mention a brand new book of Thich Nhat Hanh's talks.

[31:01]

on the middle way verses. This came out about five months ago. It's called, appropriately, Cracking the Walnut. So it says, cracking the walnut, understanding the dialectics of Nagarjuna. So, and because it's Thich Nhat Hanh, it's very poetic and it's accessible. There are a lot of very scholarly books written on this topic, but for those who are not into that, I'd really recommend Cracking the Walnut. In fact, at some point I'm going to read a paragraph, but I'd like to get to Hannah first. Well, just to put a plug in for boundlessness, the thing... The reason I prefer it is because in one word, it expresses that everything is completely interconnected.

[32:05]

That's to me what boundlessness means. And when you say emptiness, you need more words to make that term clear. You have to say empty of inherent existence because people think empty means like nothing. It's just empty of separate inherent existence. So I put my strong vote in for boundlessness. Thank you, Hannah. Anyone else have a word they like? We're speaking in conventional truths right now. FYI. Words are conventional, relative reality. Ross. The word no? For me, when I say no in response to someone's request, it takes a lot of energy.

[33:13]

And I get fixed on defending my point of view, and it's no. And when I've had a turn on that inquiry or request and it turns into yes, I find it easier in my body to say yes and kind of go with something. But that's a particular scenario that I experienced some years ago. When I was studying with Sojin about some things and he was essentially saying no, what it helped me realize is that what I was bringing up And he said, no, I had to return to zero and see what else was, what was being left out by saying something or proposing something. And when I reflected on what I felt or what I touched on that was left out, it was a huge amount of things. It was actually a boundless amount of things. So I think in that sort of sense of provisionalness, choosing

[34:20]

or thinking about a thing and saying, Sojin, how about this? And it's like, okay, and also no. And so that would make, that would compel me to dig deeper. You know, that yes and versus yes, but it's more of an inclusivity sort of thing. And so it's yes and no. Thank you. That's another dichotomy in the relative world. Yeah. Well, it's eight o'clock. Why don't we take a short break? How about coming back at seven minutes after eight? Hi again.

[43:57]

Okay, so we'll move on a little bit. That's Prajnaparamita. Beautiful. So in the second half, I'd like to talk about a Bodhisattva depends on Prajnaparamita and the mind is no hindrance. Without any hindrance, no fears exist. Far apart from every perverted view one dwells in Nirvana. In the three worlds all Buddhas depend on Prajnaparamita and attain unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment. So, let's see.

[45:02]

We have to give up, see this is contradiction, because the Heart Sutra talks about no attainment. And with nothing to attain, the Bodhisattva depends on Prajnaparamita. At the same time, we talk about how the aspiration to awaken is so important. We have that aspiration, otherwise why would we be here? So, but as we talked about before, attainment does not have inherent existence. So in Dogen's, fascicle, the Fukan Sazengi, which are basically Zazen instructions.

[46:13]

He says, we have to give up even our aspiration to become a Buddha. So here we are, we're all aspiring and we have to give up our aspiration. I mean, what's that about? And so the Heart Sutra says also, Not directly, but this is what it means. We must be free of Buddha's teaching and free of enlightenment. So all is empty, including a blister. And so... Here we're talking about abiding in prajnaparamita, coursing, practicing prajnaparamita, but wisdom is not a thing. It's nothing you can grasp.

[47:17]

So, obviously the bodhisattva who is practicing prajnaparamita were given instructions by Avalokitesvara. And, We are the bodhisattvas, not the same kind exactly of bodhisattva, but we have this aspiration and a commitment. We make these vows all the time, every day. We vow to save all beings. So for no attainment, we're talking about, we're not grasping at things such as samadhi, arhat-ship, or the enlightenment of Buddhahood. When we're grasping at something, it's an object, and it's usually something we've reified, usually.

[48:21]

But then if you say, but understanding its emptiness is not reifying it. So, to me, that's where the beauty is. Can I ask you a question? Yes. So is it no conceptualization? In other words, the moment that I make myself an idea that I want to attain enlightenment, that moment I have now an idea of what enlightenment is and I have all kinds of concepts about it and all of that, and that in itself Moves me away from. Correct, that's exactly it. That keeps you away from it. It'll always slip away if it's your idea. That's why so much of our practice is dropping our views, opinions, concepts, things like that. So I'm gonna talk a little more about that in a minute, but back to this,

[49:29]

where we're heading with this sutra. The bodhisattva depends on prajnaparamita and the mind is no hindrance. Without any hindrance, no fears exist. Far apart from every perverted view, one dwells in nirvana. I'm gonna read another translation of what I just read, okay, because I find it helpful to hear different words, and this is from Edward Conze, who is a scholar. I think he's really wonderful, if anyone's into reading more scholarly works. He's really good in that he's written a lot of books. Anyway, so this is what he says. Therefore, Shariputra, it is because of his non-attainment-ness that a bodhisattva, through having relied on the perfection of wisdom, dwells without thought coverings.

[50:39]

In the absence of thought coverings, he has not been made to tremble. He has overcome what can be upset. And in the end, he attains to nirvana. So, Would you like me to read that again? Did that move anybody? Yes, please. All right, once again. Therefore, Shariputra, it is because of his non-attainment-ness that a bodhisattva, through having relied on the perfection of wisdom, dwells without thought coverings. In the absence of thought coverings, he has not been made to tremble. He has overcome what can be upset, and in the end, he obtains nirvana. So with us, traditionally in our zendo, we keep hearing the words hindrances.

[51:47]

Without any hindrance, no fears exist. Sometimes it's called obstacles. So, Thich Nhat Hanh, I'm gonna use these same different words, okay? Thich Nhat Hanh says about hindrances, there are ideas and concepts concerning birth and death, defilement, purity, increasing, decreasing, above, below, Buddha, Mara, enlightenment, suffering, et cetera. So our hindrances, our thought coverings are these kinds of conceptual things. And so he goes on to say that once we see with the eye of prajnaparamita, the eye of interbeing, these obstacles are removed and we overcome fear, freeing ourselves from illusion and realizing nirvana.

[52:57]

And then he goes on to say, and many people have said this, nirvana is the state of non-fear. Now there's a bunch of different ways you can look at this. Shohaka Okamura says about hindrances that they are basically our views. our views, our hindrances. And he, similar to Konsei, he says, it's something which covers our mind. Because we talk about, Sojin loved to say big mind, but awakening, the awakened mind, is covered. We have a natural awakened mind, but we cover it with all this kind of thoughts and explanations and all the jibber-jabbering we do in our minds about everything.

[54:04]

So we fear because of our desires, worrying that our desires would not be filled. So I just want to say about where this comes from. You know, in our version, we say, far apart from every perverted view, one dwells in nirvana. I have to say, I have a problem with that word perverted, but we're getting some agreement here. Does anyone out in Zuma have a problem with that perverted view? Enough people. Karen? So Soju did also, he used to call it, rename it topsy-turvy views. Yeah, well actually that's much closer. That's better. It is. So I'm just going to go back to the Japanese, what I've been learning. So, okay, so we say far apart from every perverted view, one dwells in Nirvana.

[55:09]

In Japanese, the term is tendo muso. And so, mu, means dream it's like and moon means dream or dreaming and so is thinking so it's like muso is like thought in a dream and then tendo means upside down so it's just like what you were saying topsy-turvy I actually like that a lot better upside down is kind of Great, because it has both of those opposites in there, but you know. So anyway, so that's how the Japanese, that's how Shohako Okimura, who is Japanese, translates it. And I see, which has put in the chat, that San Francisco Zen Center says inverted view.

[56:17]

Actually, that's a lot more palatable to me, too. So in terms of views, basically we see things from our point of view, and that's the problem, the point of view of the self that's always trying to prove that it exists and feed itself. So I'm seeing a couple hands so low, Would you like to say something? Yes, thank you. This particular phrase was something I worked with when I first started at BCC. This brought back the memory of that. And I liked perverted view because it was so difficult. And I interpreted it as delusion, as ignorance. Ignorance. And what I understood at the time was that my suffering is because I have an ignorant or perverted view.

[57:26]

You know, how can I sit with this and soften it and see, you know, and a broader perspective would come with Zazen. I used to do that, sit out on my deck in the morning before school. And... It was a wonderful way to just lower anxiety level and see possibilities. So it was like a softening and discovering and opening to that this. And a constant surprise that that suffering could lessen and a good goal could leave. And it was wonderful. And I forgot about that. And I thought, you know, I wanted to share that now. Well, thank you. It sounds like it did relieve your suffering. So, thank you for that. So, Marley, go ahead.

[58:32]

Sure. Thank you, Karen. I think the part of this section... We've talked about so many contradictions. I really love that something like six lines later from saying there's no attainment, it goes straight to and then they attain. It really feels like there's a great co-on in that. And I could say I have questions about it, but they're too big to say anything about. So thank you. Well, that's just like getting caught in duality. You know, they say there's no attainment and then attain. So that's what we're working with here. Walking the middle way and not attaching to either side, not attaching to no attainment and not attaching to attainment.

[59:43]

Because back in whatever it was I read before about non-attainment-ness, Kahnse's translation, it's because of his non-attainment-ness that a bodhisattva through having relied on the perfection of wisdom dwells without thought coverings. And as a little sidetrack, this bit about fears is no joke. I mean, we can be very kind of ordinary about the whole thing and say, well, yeah, we live with fears, fears of survival, fears about money, fears about family, loss, all that kind of stuff that we think about every day. But also in Zazen, when we, practice deep zazen, dropping body and mind.

[60:47]

It can be frightening to not have something to lean on or to... I mean, there's so many koans written about this, but basically the bodhisattva abides nowhere and it can be frightening to experience the falling away of the mind so There is a fear of losing, well, I can't describe it universally, but that fear of groundlessness and not having something to support us is not, it's very, it can be frightening.

[62:05]

And so here, what's being said is that The bodhisattva just dwells in this homelessness or lack, not leaning on anything, not leaning on a view, not leaning on my name, not leaning on the future or the past, the story. Okay, so we've got a number of people, but Margo has their hand up first, and then I'll come back to the room. Margo? Yeah, I think while I had initially raised my hand in response to Marley, but maybe first because I also, in response to what you just said, Karen, sometimes I find that it's like that fear of dropping away almost comes up in the... transitory period if that makes sense of like at some point in emptiness or whatever or i don't know if that's a i don't know what language to use but at some point that fear drops away too right in a complete state of fearlessness the kind of like a feeling of being like a newborn fawn on legs like when of of the kind of unconditioned mind it's like uh

[63:34]

in a true experience of fearlessness is like just, that isn't there either. But when I initially had raised my hand in response to Marley was before I, or right in the beginning when I was practicing Zen in a Korean school, I was also reading a lot of Sufi poetry and this reminded, and I was really drawn to the kind of academic study of apophatic religions. And Michael Sells has a really great book called Mystical Words of Unsaying that talks about which is basically religion that use like Sufism that kind of progressively like unsay like the heart which is basically what the heart sutra is doing and I think in having a positive statement at the end of the heart sutra it's like kind of another double layering of like unsaying what has already been unsaid, which is maybe just a different way to rephrase what you just said, Karen.

[64:40]

But I kind of wanted to recommend that book by Michael Sells. It's really great if that's something that you're interested in. Yeah, I am interested. Maybe you could send it out, the name of the book. But also, when you say double saying, did you say double saying? It's like a double unsaying. It's like there's no attainment, but then we have to even unsay that there's no attainment. We have to make some positive statement, but in another way, that's just another negation because of the structure of the Heart Sutra. Thank you for that. I would like to know the name of that book. um speaking of these you know attainment non-attainment not this not that um so many of the texts that we work with the koans and even the gardener you know you're reading the gardener you hear these arguments over and over and over and um

[65:57]

They make you so crazy in a way you have to give up that search for any place to stand. Because I think his point is that there really isn't any place to stand. But you feel that after working with the Trula and working with a number of the koans. So who was first here, Ross? I knew who was first, but... When you were talking about leaning on, you can't lean on anything, I was thinking about in Zazen, if I start leaning on some idea, positive or negative, it physically manifests in my body, leaning, dropping or something like that. And in our practice, we're encouraged to be upright. in a still place and almost like a weightlessness, which is not leaning left or right, front or back. So it's an embodied thing that when we can be in that place, which we're constantly being reminded of to keep checking body scans and checking our posture, we can stop leaning and just being.

[67:13]

But it's really an ongoing thing. And the other thing I was wondering about, the 100-foot pole and jumping off of that. That's exactly the koan I was thinking of. Jumping off the 100-foot pole, which many of you are familiar with. Who was next? Was it Kabir, were you? I was just reading No Attainment. You know, when I take that to heart, No Attainment. I can breathe. There's nothing that I need to do in a certain sense. There's total freedom there. Thank you. I feel that too. I can stop trying so hard. Kabir, just speak up because you're back. What about the stuff that comes up?

[68:14]

Yes, there's job body and mind. And I think that maybe the reason they push that or is that when you sit Zalzan or, and there's a lot of skeletons come out and there's stuff gets unburied. So maybe that's probably why they say drop body and mind. So yeah, those things do matter and it affects us, not just sitting on a cushion at any moment we get triggered or things come up. So I think remembering that It's all empty, but yet things do matter. Remembering the conventional food that, yes, there's pain, there's suffering, but at the same time, it's temporary. Impermanent. Impermanent. And I think that's the liberation. And I think remembering that at the moment of the turbulence or the chaos that is going on in our minds, you know, at the end of the day, we're all living in samsara.

[69:16]

We live in a desire realm. And when you have a body, it comes with pain, it comes with discomfort, it comes with dukkha. So I think just remembering the impermanent things of things and the transitory of things, it helps. But that doesn't mean that, oh, no suffering exists. Of course it does. And that's what we need, Sangha, and we need friends. Did everyone hear that? Yes. Good. Thank you. In fact, I wanted to read just one verse from Thich Nhat Hanh's Cracking the Walnut, which actually relates to what you were just saying. So I'm just gonna read these four short lines. Without relying on conventional truth, you cannot realize ultimate truth. Without realizing ultimate truth, you will not

[70:18]

attain Nirvana. And then Thich Nhat Hanh's commentary is, to master the ultimate truth, someone has to learn about conventional truth. The fact that there is conventional truth and ultimate truth does not mean that you choose one and discard the other. Both truths are necessary. If you do not begin by looking deeply into the conventional truth, you will not be able to realize the ultimate truth. So we do this very simply in our zazen practice, by dropping whatever thought arises. It doesn't matter what it is, good thought, bad thought, in your opinion, mundane philosophical whatever it is we just let it go so that's working with conventional reality well as sojan used to say while we're in the absolute in zazen you know when dogan talks about

[71:44]

dropping body and mind. It used to sound like such a big deal, but in a lot of ways it isn't. If you're sitting in Sashin and it's about quarter to 12 and you're wondering what's for lunch and you cannot stop thinking about that and then you let go of that thought, that is dropping body and mind. And that's so mundane. Somebody sign me out of here. Let me go back. Yeah, sorry about that. I got a message that I was kicked off. Somebody reminded me. You dropped your Zoom too. I'm just seeing if there's anything else.

[72:46]

We're gonna end in a few, five minutes, but I just had a few, just a few more words, which are basically not different from the words I've been saying all night, but our thoughts are not reality. And in Zazen, we let go of our thoughts. By the way, I just want to not leave out any part of this sutra that might confuse people. So the next paragraph, in the next line, it says, in the three worlds, all Buddhas depend on Prajnaparamita. Those three worlds are what constitute samsara. And I'm going to tell you what they are, but not explain it really. One is called the sphere of desire.

[73:50]

Those are where we spend most of our time. You know, the six realms of existence, the hell realm, the animal realm, the human realm, et cetera. So that is a sphere of desire. The next one is called the sphere of form. which there's enjoyment without desire. And then finally, there's something called sphere of formlessness, which is like a bodiless, purely spiritual continuum. But I'm not gonna, that's just, I think too much for this hour of the evening. So, Why don't, I think we've had enough. But there's a few minutes more for questions or comments.

[74:53]

Charlie. In my office and get. I missed the beginning of what you said. Thank you, Karen. And I moved to run into my office by your comment upon reality. And I just want to read today's page from the Little Zen Calendar. Some of you may have read it already, but it's a doozy. It says, truth is something you stumble into when you think you are going someplace else. And that is from Jerry Garcia. I love it. Well, you know what, that's very helpful, Charlie. Jerry Garcia has helped a lot of people along the way before he passed, yes.

[75:58]

Well, he helped me get through my teen years, that's for sure. Anyone else have any... especially anyone who hasn't spoken tonight. Colleen. I just want to point out, in case people didn't see it, that Margo, the book that Margo was talking about, I put the title and the author in the chat. Oh, great. Thank you very much, Margo and Colleen. It's called, by the way, Mystical Languages of Unsaying by Michael Sells. Ooh. Margo mentioned Sufis being born in Muslim. Allah is very much described like emptiness because it has no form, it does not have gender, it does not have sex, but yet everything comes from

[77:09]

Allah and everything goes to Allah. So there is the aspect of the form, which is all things that are created. And then Allah is the emptiness or the form. So that's why you don't see images of Allah or they deny the existence of Jesus being his son, you know, because... And also in Taoism, the great Tao is So, described that way? Yeah. Right? Or the way, or the Tao. Yeah. Actually, in the Jewish religion also, you cannot make an image of God. Right. Pauline? Yeah, in Christian mysticism, there's the via negativa, which is similarly trying to approach the absolute by dropping anything you can predicate of it. I think it's... I don't know of a mystical tradition that doesn't involve a lot of unsaying.

[78:13]

Everyone seems to have the same idea. Yeah, I'm sure that's true. Well, everyone... You had mentioned this book, I think, and it's here in the library, if anybody's interested. This is one of Edward Conze's books that Maria Theresa is pointing out. This one's called Buddhist Thought in India. good book but you have to you should look at it first don't just order it because it is very it's a bit scholarly anyway it's time to say good night thank you all for coming And I look forward to seeing you for our last class next week, where we're going to talk a lot about the mantra, Gatte Gatte. So anyway, have a good night's sleep and see you soon.

[79:29]

Oh, sure. She's amazing. Thank you, Karen. Thank you, Karen. Good night. Thank you. You too.

[79:38]

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