Good morning. So today's lecturer is Greg Denny, who is Dharmananda's patient hundo. Ordinary mind. I wrote this down oddly, or strangely, it looks like odd mind. But it's ordinary mind. I either will do. Ordinary mind, right? Greg is one of the senior students here. He's been practicing at Berkeley Center for about 16 years. He is the father of two energetic boys and is married to Marie Hopper, who is also a longtime practitioner. He received lay entrustment, lay recognition from Sojin Roshi this year. And we're happy to have him lecture.

[01:02]

I should say that on the schedule, Victoria Austin was the planned lecturer for today. She had a she had an accident about two, two and a half weeks ago. from which she is recovering. But she broke her nose and had some other injuries and was not ready to do this. So we'll have her at a later date. But we're happy to have Greg proclaiming the Dharma to us. So thank you. Thank you. Good morning. How's the sound? Is that sound OK? Is it too loud? It's not loud enough? Wow, it seems awfully loud. So see how prepared I am. So I'd like to talk about birth and death.

[02:11]

And my father died last month. In fact, I think, we don't know the exact day he died, but I've been able to piece it together. I'm pretty sure it was 49 days ago today. 49 days. So, what I'd like to do is talk about birth and death from the vantage point of Dharma. Birth and death from the vantage point of my experiencing of my father's death and my experience of grief as practice. So first a few words about my father. I loved my father very much. Despite the fact that he, my father was a

[03:14]

A somewhat disturbed man, prone to abuse and violence sometimes. He drank almost every day of his life as an adult, so every day of my life. His dying, it's unclear how he died at this point, but his deterioration was certainly associated with his drinking. Um, he and I, there is my sister and I are the only two kids and we were both, uh, he had kind of cut us off in the last period of his life. Um, however, he is a bit, you know, I did love him. I do love him. Um, and, uh, there was not a molecule

[04:23]

of my existence, of my life, of my universe, of the universe that is not completely dependent on Him. Every moment that I spend with myself and every moment that I spend with my sons is completely co-created still by Him. And I am very grateful for my life And I am very grateful for these molecules. And so I am very grateful for my father, despite an enormous amount of grief and pain and hurt. And so I'm going to try to talk about that a little bit more and talk about birth and death. So we all know if we're practicing Buddhists that birth and death is central to our understanding of the way things are.

[05:27]

You know, everything that arises passes away. Everything. Everything is subject to birth and death. And And lately I've come to try to experience birth and death, or experience the life of things. And what do I mean by things? I mean everything. I mean, you know, in the Genjo Koan, Dogen describes how we study the self to forget the self, and awaken to myriad things. Those are the things I'm talking about. Everything in our life, everything that arises in each present moment that we try to awaken to, is subject to birth and death. So that means my grief, I guess, will have a life of its own.

[06:31]

My father had a life of birth and death. Each feeling that arises in me vis-a-vis my father or anything else, my anger, my joy, my desire, is marked by birth and death. So lately I've tried to think about this, or I have come to think about it in terms of a kind of metaphor, and that is to look at all the myriad things, including the ones I just listed and anything else you can think of, as a fruit. As a fruit on a tree, on a fruit tree, that has a natural life. It will you know, it has its legacy dating back to the soil and the seed and the tree growing and then the blossom and then the fruit and the fruit at some point in the most natural life it might have, it will ripen, drop from the tree, rot on the ground, return to the soil.

[07:51]

So that's the most natural part of its life. So we can imagine that as the same, it's exactly the same thing with my anger, it's exactly the same thing with my father's life, exactly the same thing with my grief, or anything else you can name. However, we also know that the lives of fruit don't always adhere to their arc, right? Now there are ways that I can try to intervene in the life of the fruit, I can fertilize, I can water, I can spray insecticide, there's all kinds of things I can do to intervene, to, I guess, affect the arc of birth and death. And even if I do intervene in those ways, it doesn't change the basic fact that the natural life of this fruit is its natural life, with insecticide, with fertilizer, or anything else. And the same goes if ... there's a frost and the fruit dies or it is stillborn because of frost or because a squirrel comes and grabs it in its youth before it can even blossom or ripen and we can think of it many ways that superficially

[09:26]

the fruit's life is unnatural. Its birth and death is unnatural. But really our practice is to experience that life or that art as natural no matter what. Because it is. And all things are like this. I mean, I want to be able to intervene. I want, you know, I want to, and this is the First Noble Truth, right? About suffering. is I don't want to die the things that I cherish. And truthfully, part of me wants to kill or to die the things that I don't like. But our practice is to save all sentient beings. And that means to hold, be present to the natural life of everything as it is.

[10:35]

My father's life, from many vantage points, I don't see it as natural. His lifestyle was one of a slow suicide, really, a self-destruction. kinds of decisions he made and the kind of life she led. However, my practice is to experience his life as natural as the fruit ripening on the tree. And that's part of my grieving too. So one way I've looked at this, or I've been thinking about this over the last couple of days, I found myself focusing on this idea of the ripening.

[11:45]

And that practice, in some sense, is being present so that we can see when things ripen. And so I was thinking about the four vows, in that sense. And I refer to this, beings are numberless, I vow to save them. I was thinking about that. To save them is to allow each life, each thing, to have its natural life. And delusions are unexhaustible, I vow to end them. That's a good one too. I mean, delusions are inexhaustible and we really can't let go of a delusion until it ripens. All our delusions have their natural life as well. And they wouldn't be delusions if there were... if we saw them all the time in the same way, as ripe.

[12:55]

They only become... they actually are... They're born and they die at the same moment, delusions, right? We don't see them until we're ready to let go of them. And I suppose the same goes for Dharmagates, right? A Dharmagate, for us to go through a Dharmagate it has to ripen, and we ripen with it, I guess. And there it is. And then we enter it, and then it dies. And I suppose that's That's the Buddha way, so the fourth vow, to do that over and over. I started, maybe wisdom is like that too, right? You know, we talk about the two prongs of practice, samadhi, meditation, concentration, zazen, and wisdom, which is the fruit.

[14:01]

of practice. But it's a fruit that you can't just kind of make. It has a natural life of its own and it ripens in its own time. And our practice is to trust the ripening of the natural life of our own wisdom. So, in thinking about this talk, that's sort of the first part of what I was thinking about is practice as the experiencing and the awareness of the unequivocal, undisputable fact of birth and death. But then there's another side too, which is harder for me to understand, I think. I think it's in the Metta Sutta, right?

[15:05]

The last part of the Metta Sutta. How does it go? I'm sorry, I'm spacing. Attaining the way I'll be free from the duality of birth and death, right? Free from the duality of birth and death. So I've been reading Dogen. his fascicle called Earth and Death and I think I'll read some from it. You know when I first, I have to say that when I read Dogen now, he is of great comfort to me. That's the word that comes to mind. Dogen is of such great comfort to me in grappling what it is to be a human being. When I first started reading Dogen, I would have never imagined that that's where I would end up, that my relationship to him would, that's where I would, at some point I would feel that Dogen is comforting, because he is pretty challenging too, but he is very comforting, and reading this fascicle has been very comforting.

[16:18]

So he talks about, I think in here, when he's free of the duality of birth and death, he starts talking It is a mistake to suppose that birth turns into death. Birth is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past and future. For this reason, in Buddhadharma, birth is understood as no birth. Death is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past and future. For this reason, death is understood as no death. In birth there is nothing but birth, And in death there is nothing but death. Accordingly, when birth comes, face and actualize birth. And when death comes, face and actualize death. Do not avoid them, nor desire them." So Dogen's expression of being free from the duality of birth and death has to do with this idea of no birth.

[17:33]

no death, and that it is a mistake to suppose that birth turns into death. In the Genjokan he talks about it is a mistake to think that winter turns into spring. So there's some idea. And my thinking about this now One can get caught in the awareness of birth and death because... For instance, let's think about... allow me to think about my grief. You know, it's been a hard... it's been a hard few weeks for me and I've grieved before for my mother who died four years ago and for other people.

[18:38]

who have been very close to me and have died. And so I feel like I'm familiar with grief. And so I kept telling myself, well, this is the sentient being that arises for me now that I need to be present to in its birth and death. My grief. and I knew that it would have, you know, it has its birth and it will have its death and that, you know, its death may be a letting go. But my awareness of that, it kind of, it was sabotaging me because I kept trying to fertilize it or treat it as a fruit on a tree because I wanted it to ripen. I wanted it so badly to ripen so that my grief could be over.

[19:45]

And I think that's what Dogen is talking about. Is that when we become caught up in our awareness of birth and death, we don't just be where we are. We don't allow the death to just be death fully, or birth just to be birth fully. And so that was very helpful for me when I realized that because I understood that I need to, or my practice is, I can't come up with a better word, is to enjoy my grief. Because that is the natural phase of what's happening right now. And if I think about my grief's birth and I think about my grief's death, it takes me away from just being there right now.

[20:53]

How much time is it Peter? Looks like a minute twenty five minutes. Oh wow. So... Would you like a question? Well, I didn't want to say anything, I just wanted to know... Do you have a question right now? Yeah. I can wait, too. Go ahead. You're saying about trying to see if you can enjoy your grief, and I'm hearing that That's not the question.

[22:29]

Yeah, there's subtle differences in what enjoy means. There's a way in which you can understand that to enjoy means to not try to change, to be with what is without trying to make it anything different. Or to be, to enjoy, like when we use colloquially, I'm enjoying you, I'm enjoying your company. It means I'm enjoying you as you are. Right? Yeah. So, then there's, well, I guess I'm kind of on this track where I'm translating it to myself as acceptance rather than pushing it away. Yeah, acceptance. Aren't you trying? It's not acceptance, it's enjoyment. But isn't the purpose to help you to not try to make it end. Which is what you were saying, you wanted it to ripen.

[23:31]

That's right. You found yourself wanting it to ripen so it would go away. Right. But acceptance almost feels a little too goal oriented as well. Okay. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you can try really hard to not be where you are, which is having trouble are and letting go into what's happening. But the question I have is about another extreme, which is clinging to suffering, which is very easy to fall into, and this idea of a balance between clinging and pushing away, and sometimes it seems to me it's a hard to be in between those two. It's very easy to fall into one or the other. And I wonder if you've experienced a lot of grief, if you've ever fallen into clinging to it for any reason.

[24:35]

Certainly. There's something... I mean, we can also... do a little riff on grief, we don't have a society and culture which is amenable to grief. In fact, we're terrible at it. We're terrible at it. We pathologize sadness and loss so that we think we shouldn't experience it. For instance, The first really big loss I had was someone close to me dying. It felt... I was in such grief and the circumstances were such that I felt for the first time I had permission to grieve.

[25:40]

And why do we need permission to grieve? It's just crazy. And that was wholesome. We should always have permission to grieve. should have its natural life, like grief. But I think what did happen to me at some point was that it felt so healing and I started clinging to it, right? Because, you know, we have so much to grieve about. That's why we come here, right? From day one. It's in our body. It's in ourselves. And so when things happen like that, it's an opportunity to feel that. But I think I got over the clean part. Yes?

[26:42]

I just wanted to, because I also had a response to enjoying grief, and I felt like I recognized what you meant, and the words that come to mind for me are Living it foolish. Which just means living foolish. That's right. And also, I mean, that's right. And I use the word enjoyment because, just because it kind of... Sun-faced Buddha, Moon-faced Buddha. You know, our practice, we're being implored by Dogen and by our ancestors to experience everything as natural and as Buddha with our metta mind. And so that's kind of why I use... And there is a way that... See, by enjoying my grief, and fill in the word as you like,

[27:49]

That is a way to love my father. That is a way to love myself. So there is enjoyment as well. Thank you, Greg. Maybe appreciate grief is the word. That it is a Dharmagate. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm wondering if we need to appreciate grief as Buddha or as Dharma, or if we can just appreciate grief as grief. Yeah, I think that's right. When grief is grief, Zen is Zen. Grief is Zen. Grief is Buddha. When grief is grief... I had a question when you were talking about not fiddling around with the arc.

[28:52]

And how is it that Nothing is standing still. And so birth and death is ongoing. So for us to sit back and think about it, or to kind of think we can kind of grasp it as a kind of like trying to step out of something, we're not stepping out of it. We think we can stop swimming, but we're going to keep swimming. And so in that context, what's useful effort? Skillful means. There's no way of knowing, but I think it's good not to rush in.

[30:11]

I think it's good to sit with life in a way that you do feel the myriad things as free, as natural, as winter, spring, summer, fall. And I realize that's kind of vague or poetic or something, but it has some resonance for me. And that's wisdom. to experience the arc of myriad things, the birth and death, from our hara, from our body, from our whole body, and not just from up here, that wants to control things, that wants to fix things. So I think that's what the practice is.

[31:13]

This is one of the later things that Dogen wrote, He has a way of expressing it here that is much more colloquial than I just did. There's a simple way to become a Buddha. When you refrain from unwholesome actions, are not attached to birth and death, and are compassionate toward all sentient beings, respectful to seniors, and kind to juniors, not excluding or desiring anything, with no designing thoughts or worries, you will be called a Buddha. Do not seek anything else. I think that the... I didn't mention that. I think it's important too that in not rushing in and awakening to the myriad things that we don't exclude anything.

[32:23]

That we don't just focus on one part of the problem. That we have our sight as expansive as possible. Because everything depends on everything else. And you could try to fix something here and really mess up something over there. That to me too speaks to awareness to the natural way of things. Does that answer your question? Shelly and then Ron. Thank you for being so attentive. I think Suzuki Roshi's version of what you just read from Dogen, which is a response to Peter, was that our effort is to let go of whatever is extra. And what's extra?

[33:25]

That's the question. Well, what's extra for you? Do you have two or three hours? How do you know what's extra as opposed to something that needs to be included? What's extra for me is usually when there's a sense of drama with me being the central actor. That feels extra, but really pervasive. So when you notice that, what do you do with it? I try to relax a little bit. But you include it, don't you? I can't help it. Yeah, we can't get rid of anything. There's nothing extra. We can only include it in the most natural, wholesome way.

[34:31]

And I think letting go, too, has to happen in that same way. We can't make ourselves let go. Sorry, there's a... Yeah. I think in line with that, something extra, sort of, is that for me, I went through my a lot of grief around my parents, but in many typical relationships, I've found that what still hangs there is something around forgiveness. And I'm wondering if that's been a part of your process as well. Have you thought about that? It's a huge, huge part of my process. And in a way, Well, I can't lie to you, my father hurt me pretty badly. And I also know that he suffered a lot, so that helps.

[35:43]

There is also, you know, this is hard one. So, it's a practice to forgive him. And it also helps to, what I said before, to understand that every molecule, like I said, everything about my life and the universe is dependent on who he was and who he is at this moment. And so I understand that, you know, forgiving him is forgiving myself. Right? Because the ways in which I can't allow him to be his life and death, his birth and death to be natural unto itself, 100% Buddha, are ways in which I withhold the same from myself. You know, and part of that is I have I have some shame about, or anger, shame I guess is the right word, about loving him.

[36:57]

How could I have loved someone who had hurt me so much? But I did. I do. So to follow on that, and on Ron's, take the hurt that was done to you and to transmit it to your children because you feel it was real, it was a fruit that was ripening which you were the inheritor of. Which is extra to follow that inheritance or to forgive and turn away from it.

[37:59]

Is one extra and one not. What do you mean by follow the inheritance? You mean to repeat it? Not to forgive. To embody the hurt that was done to you and pass it on. You could do that. I could do that. Sometimes I do. It happens in this world. Is one extra and one not? I don't think either are extra. It's where the hurt resides in the landscape. If it resides front and central in a way that operates somewhat unconsciously, it's still there. It's not extra. but it becomes destructive and then I'm just repeating the karma. But if it resides somewhere else so that I can experience the hurt, so that I can cultivate my compassion and my understanding of who my children are and how vulnerable they are and how helpless they are, then the hurt is there no matter what.

[39:14]

It's just operating differently. I mean, I think Dogen's instruction is pretty clear. He's talking about aligning yourself, being Buddha, by aligning yourself with Buddha's activities. I'm not sure. This is where I would kind of ask Sojourner Roshi, what did Suzuki Roshi mean by extra in Ron's question? I'm not sure they're the same thing. It's up to you. Well, what I'm thinking is, we have a saying that when you shake the stick at a dog, the dog reacts to the stick.

[40:14]

And then you can meet the dog around. are shaking the stick, but the lion goes for the source. The lion goes for the person that's holding the stick. So what's extra is being fooled by the stick. So how do you get to the source? We have our feelings and all this stuff. So how do you get to the source? That's the question. So that you accept your feelings, Joy and grief are in the mix. So what's extra is to be caught by things. That's what's extra. So we accept everything as it is, rather than everything as it isn't.

[41:15]

The extra is to be caught by things. and to be operating from not everything that is, but everything that isn't. Isn't that more or less what you said? Which turns it on its head that the extra is the extra energy we put into one part of the picture as opposed to allowing the whole picture to have its due. Were you out of time? Five minutes? Okay, go ahead. And then, Walter. I'm happy to be introduced to the concept of the extra. My mother passed in December and sometimes I found, calling this extra, sometimes I found that in trying to rehash and understand things from the past about the relationship,

[42:20]

that at a certain point, I felt like it was delusion. I could work myself up into trying to second-guess and figure things out, because since she was gone, there was no way to resolve certain things. And I had a relatively issue-free relationship. But I did find the experts sometimes to be delusion, so freeing to just let go. Can you say more about what allowed you to let go? When I go there, sometimes I just think of Suzuki Roshi and I think of Zen Mind, Beginner be happy.

[43:21]

She had a good life. I didn't want to stay in that mixed up extra. Right, extra. That makes me think, my experience of, and I guess extra is a good word for it, that when my mind spins out sort of a narrative, like you were talking, Zumi, you were talking about narrative, kind of a story, is that I feel disconnected to myself, actually. I feel disconnected to where I'm really, it's a way actually to disconnect from how I'm really feeling and to have it be something else. And so there's dissonance, which does feel extra, and on me. Because I'm here in this narrative versus here enjoying Walter and I think that's it.

[44:29]

So Greg, when you are enjoying grief and you're staying with it, what is it that you feel? Where does it go? What is grief? How might that be related to your own impermanence, your own non-self, your own, you know, he's reminded of the poem by Don, Don asked for whom the bell tolls for me. What is it? Well, I think that some of it might be the strumming of my own mortality thing, but No, the thing with grief is it's all over the map, right? I mean, sometimes I'm angry and sometimes I'm hurt or sad and sometimes I'm scared. I mean, often these things are happening at once.

[45:36]

So I think that I can't say that I feel one thing And which is, it's no different than anything else, right? It's no different than anything else. So I'm not sure I answered the question that you wanted me to answer. Alright, thank you.

[46:01]

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