This is the last tape on the trip to Japan. After the slideshow, I think in some way it feels farther, farther away. Let's see, where did we leave off? Preparing for the ceremony itself. It's very difficult to say anything about the ceremony.

[01:17]

Except that the most important thing, it did happen. Regardless if it's 90 or 91 generations. the ceremony did happen. The very background of that ceremony, there's an immense amount of work involved in little diagrams and many rehearsals and many people involved. A sort of very grand feeling. Must have been over 200 feet of red silk hung in the room to create this particular atmosphere.

[02:37]

So for us here to, since we're so far removed from tradition, to have that kind of familiarity Things done nicely Not just nicely but everything is just right During the ceremony I was in cold sweat Many Noiri, Roshi's face and voice continues with me.

[03:57]

Just that kind of sound, ancient sound. So the day that the ceremony ended was the first warm day. So most all the days, although in the slides you saw sunshine, but where we are, it's more like inside. So the day just after the ceremony, It was the first warm day. You didn't have to run inside the temple, but you could walk. You ran to keep warm from one room to another.

[05:08]

And there was a kind of big relief. from everyone all the way down to the kitchen help over John. Everybody felt relieved and happy that this occasion had been completed. I think... my mind doesn't seem to be working to produce thoughts about the trip.

[07:17]

But maybe you get some from the last two other Saturdays, you get some sense of basic feel. You know, I think it was last week, Nancy went and visited Los Angeles Zen Center.

[08:24]

And she said, and the Tuesday before, we went over a particular point quite a bit. She was a little bit late to the noon service, and so she was waiting outside. And the first thing that Mayazumi Roshi said, on his way coming out, was, uh, chaksho kong naini or naini one. And here it was Nancy, you know, and I think maybe she may have been the first one to be asked. She didn't know what to say. But anyway, you know, there's a, what would you say?

[09:37]

like a glass of water or even like just the other day, Tuesday there was a man here that we almost missed and he was sitting right next to you Whoever comes to Kenjo-ji, we should know who they are. It doesn't have to be... In a very natural sense, we should find out, oh, well, I haven't seen you before. You know, I'm so-and-so, who are you? In that sense, each one of us is like guest master. And so, anyway, it turns out he's the deshi of Sawaki Roshi.

[11:01]

And Sawaki Roshi was a famous Zen master. I think he's probably dead now, but that was the abbot of Entaiji. and I think well known for his translation of Dogen. And then Taiji was a very small temple in Japan in response to Buddhism becoming more and more orthodox. And Taiji did nothing. for their activity at the temple except sitting. So there was no memorial services, there was no weddings, there was no chanting, no lectures even, just sitting.

[12:05]

Anyway, Sobhagya Rishi was that teacher. And it became, the Soka Master became so well-known, I think he was a specialist in paper, paper folding and cutting. And so whenever the temple needed some money for repairs, he would write a book. Money would come. And so this temple became so well known that the emperor came and paid homage. so this man Harada sama is the deshi of sawaki roshi and he's also sawaki roshi had four deshis and one is the one we met tuesday harada sama the other one is uh in paris he's

[13:16]

Yama Roshi, who just retired from the Taiji, is the third one. And the fourth one, I couldn't follow what he said. But anyway, he posed to Ben a question. Ben probably at that time didn't know who he was either. But when I was over in that corner talking to someone, I saw Ben and him going at great speed over there. And Ben asked him, there was some calligraphy

[14:23]

in a frame underneath Maezumi Roshi's scroll and asked him, could you translate or read this picture for me? Is that right? Something like that. He did it. He could read the Chinese. Anyway, um... So, um... So we asked him, you know, what does it say?

[15:54]

And then he said, you should ask your teacher. And then he said, if you, if you have an apple, What did he say exactly? If you have an apple. If you have an apple, you eat the apple. I eat the apple. What is important? I is important, or eating the apple is important, or the apple is important. Oh. You were supposed to give the answer. So Ben came over to me and... Then what had happened?

[16:58]

Because I wasn't watching. And he came over to me later. He looked very afraid. He posed that question to me. And I looked at Ben, and he was carrying a bag on his shoulder. There was something in it. I thought, well, where is the apple? What I'm trying to say is that when someone like Maezumi Roshi, he's unusual in the sense that he's kind of, he has a trainer's certificate and so his style is very

[18:04]

sharp. Always poking with something very sharp. But like, when he asked Nancy that question, or when Harada Sama asked us that question, actually, when he asked one of us, it's asking all of us. It's a very interesting situation. So not to be confused with the apple, eating it or what to do with it. Or if you have a glass of water, what would you do? But to know, actually without hesitation, but without any lapse of time, but just say something.

[19:12]

If you don't say something, we're caught. If you say something, say something. I think it's good. I think, is it possible when we don't say anything, is it possible to not say anything? If that's possible, then it's said. But for all of us here, to say nothing is not possible. Even when we're quiet. Because something is happening. That's the point. So to say something, I think, is important. So Nancy didn't know what to say. These are stories you read about that's happening to us.

[20:16]

And the wonderful thing about it, there's no particular answer or right answer. cannot study like examination. Maybe if we have the chance we'll invite him He, out of all those over 150 slides, I think the one that he was impressed with was the one bowing at the graveyard, if you recall.

[21:41]

And he was very happy to see that, but actually that was the whole picture of japan in that one slide so the significance of bowing actually in the preparation and during the shiho ceremony there was a lot of bowing maybe a few hundred a day at least so just like any kind of form and especially a religious form

[22:58]

Like in Zen, the bow, there's zazen and then there's bowing. And bowing is very much the secret of Zen, in the bow. So as your body bows, your mind must bow. It has to bow inside. That's the most difficult part. At Rinzowin, Suzuki Roshi's temple, there was a

[24:19]

It's interesting when you meet different teachers you can see how the lineages cross each other. Who their teacher was through meeting a particular teacher. And Katagiri Roshi bow crosses with Noe Roshi's bow. And since Hojo-sama, Suzuki Roshi's son, lives close, their vows cross. And Keido Roshi's vow crosses. So you have the Kishizawa Roshi school. And one evening, by three, and Damien was there, and Keto Roshi put his palms together, and he spoke fifty-two, put his palms together, and was waiting for Damien to turn around somehow, and so finally Damien turned around.

[25:53]

very soft feeling, but warm, you know, like this. And he went, this kind of feeling. And that was all. changing. When I look at our gashos, is it difficult to close the fingers? Many are all funny. It almost looks like we have arthritis or something. Because it's

[26:58]

and right together. You know, all the fingers are together. And left and right. Two, two making one. And there's a feeling of a... I think you can... You have some feeling of elbows also, the end of your elbows. Elbows are forgotten places. So you have some feeling at the end of your elbows. You feel like sparks or something. Anyway, the elbows become very alive. And that feeling is, you know, there's some strength in it, where it goes.

[28:05]

Just goes to the bottom of your nose. And here, there's a very nice feeling. Here, exhale, breathe. and your body just goes with your bow. You know? When we bow, it's, you know, you can't be quick, but we must try to put ourselves into it, into the activity.

[29:08]

You know, putting Just putting ourselves into the form. And you surrender into the form. And actually you open to yourself. Maybe that's why it's quick. When we sit and we have a tendency to fall asleep, leave your eyes open.

[30:11]

As soon as the bell rings, before we even know it, the eyes are closed. Try to leave them open. Do you notice a difference in the body? Does it feel different now? Feels and looks different. Every time I bow and sculpt it, I became like a zigguratist to this old, old man, to identify

[31:31]

Yet it looks more masculine, but hopefully more softer. More softer. It looks more masculine. I think probably this morning I don't know if you noticed but you know that echo I do in the past four years it's like do you know which one I mean?

[32:52]

Okay. After the Heart Sutra. Okay. Every Saturday. Okay? Okay? Okay. So I said, I'm Kaisan Shogaku Shunryu. And I say Suzuki, so we know which one it is. And today I dropped off this personal name. Huh? Oh, good. So... I think how this ceremony went, you know, was exactly what was supposed to happen.

[33:53]

I was cut off from my attachment to the Suzuki Roshi. And, you know, talking to Laura, maybe even cancer, having cancer. isn't too close, walking together. It's like the transmission ceremony. It's time you walk, you know, together and then you turn around. It's like all these years we've been going this way, but there was some point that I'm supposed to go this way. this kind of field. And so probably there are many other things to be digested in time.

[35:06]

In one way it feels like taking a nice hot bath, kind of washing, washing away. And lighter feeling, you know. attachment with the angel's love for Durga Sankhya is quite different because this kind of feeling so that the attachment It's a very delicate situation.

[36:15]

If we are, you know, one, then yet two. I think it's very important. You know what I'm kind of trying to say. You know, it's very dangerous. You know, so you're one, same time two. It's important to know that. You know, when you study with a teacher, you become like the teacher. Your movements and your voice. in your posture, so many things that are long over your time.

[37:19]

It's a few minutes to ten. Does anyone like to make some comments? When you were talking about giving a response to a question, particularly from another teacher, I was wondering You know, it doesn't have to be necessarily teacher, because everything becomes our teacher. So it could be next door neighbor. I mean, well, okay. And I, it just occurred to me when you said that, that I wondered if there was some, there is danger of misunderstanding that statement. So I want to clarify it. Because it seemed that when Mizumi Roshi asked that question of Nancy, he was, he was asking for an answer. But I got the feeling, and I wasn't there, but from the way it was repeated, that when Ben was asked that question, that it was more of a rhetorical question.

[39:54]

I didn't even know whether an answer seemed appropriate. You know what I mean? In other words, it seems to me there are situations where it is better not to say anything, but just to listen. And when answered, you don't have to say something just to say something. And I wondered... See, my question was that can we not say anything? I think it's impossible. I mean, if we cannot say anything, if we do not say anything, we will have answered. In other words, the silence is completely just silence. There's no... The mind is not... When we don't say anything, the mind is not jagged, it's just like a crystal.

[40:55]

So my question, after thinking about that, when we don't say anything, is it possible? But to say something, I think is important. If in the case we don't say anything, then we must listen to what we're saying to ourself at that point. Because something is being said. Something is happening. And some... The experience has some meaning, takes on some meaning. for us. A little different meaning for each one of us.

[42:05]

It's a very rhetorical or factual and Roshi. You know which one, literal or symbolic. It's a very interesting situation. The first time I met Noeri Roshi, through translating with Hojo-sama, he asked me how old I was. Then he asked me for a Buddhist priest, your age is marked by your ordination date. And those questions were like very old questions that you see in Zen stories when they ask I just said 42.

[43:10]

We talked about bowing, and when you're bowing, your body, how bad is your arm bowing? I've experienced that sometimes, the thoughts. And you know, when they're not, you're taking away all of a sudden, and you realize the opposite of that. Yeah, that's why we bow. What she's saying is that it's just like incising you. Mind, mental activity, mind follows breathing. And what she's saying is that breathing follows the mental activity. What she's saying is that thoughts follow the bow, or the bow follows the thought.

[44:49]

Same thing. During the day or during the actual form itself. That's why there's those kinds of forms. To get the body and the mind to bow. You know, Hojo-sama has a very young student, 16 years old, and in a way it's a very healthy kind of feeling, because it's like a homegrown, you know, the form of the religion doesn't have

[45:49]

feeling about it, but it's just home growing, you just sit every day and bow every day. And you live there for a long time. That's about it. That's the Zen practice. For our group here, you know, some people cannot come so often. some people don't come anymore, but they should always be included. I think it's very important, not that we've become exclusive. Some people walk up to Sonoma Mountain without us knowing about it, on foot, and we only see them once a week. We say, gee, that person doesn't come very often. It's amazing how much effort some people do.

[47:02]

I think like at Rinzuin when staying with Hojo Osama, there was no division between people. I think that was one of the the biggest things there, and ain't anyone came. And, well, there was always some welcoming. I think if we lose sight of that, we'll become exclusive. You know, it's, I don't know, very one-sided. You know, we get busy and we have a lot of things to do, but that's extremely important for us.

[48:13]

Actually, the very thing that we're studying, we're doing the opposite. you know, so it's, the feeling is doing it together and then this other way is like exclusion. Is there another question or comment? It's very interesting, right after lecce, we have to turn the lights on, in a way, when you go from vertical to horizontal.

[49:24]

You know, in the horizontal relationships and social, the mundane. When we put our palms together, I'm really experiencing it here. What do you think? Close? Always, it's interesting, always empty inside.

[50:25]

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