not intoxicating body and mind of self or others, but cultivating and encouraging clarity. So there's something about cloudiness that has to do with intoxication. And when we first started dealing with this precept in the 60s, it wasn't It wasn't liquor that was the problem. Nobody was drinking. Everybody was smoking. Everybody's either smoking or shooting up or swallowing something or chewing something. So when I was editing the presets.

[01:06]

I think first I added liquor and dope, and instead of being specific, it just modified into intoxicants, anything that's intoxicating. or anything that changes your natural state of mind, whatever that is. Of course, our natural state of mind is always being changed. States of mind are continually changing, but to induce some change purposefully through some chemical action in order to induce a pleasant state or a delusive state is kind of what's being dealt with here. Suzuki Roshi always emphasized for this precept, don't sell Buddhism as wine.

[02:21]

Don't sell Buddhism as something intoxicating. When people talk about meditation, often it's presented as some wonderful escape or some wonderful different state of mind than the ordinary state of mind. And so people, through their meditations, they rise to higher and higher levels of enjoyment. in the same way that people like to get high. So, in the 60s, I remember, because so many people were smoking dope and taking intoxicants, when they heard about Zazen, they thought, well this is a way to get high naturally.

[03:30]

So they were transferring the high from chemicals to the high naturally, natural high, and thinking, well, this is the right way to get high, is naturally. Some ecstatic state or some What do you call it? A state of mind which is above the normal, supernormal states, which is possible. It's possible to reach supernormal states through meditation. But Suzuki Roshi always brought us down to earth. As soon as we started having wonderful

[04:37]

supernatural states through our meditation, you would always push a pin into it and deflate our flights. And it would always bring us down to earth. So, Zazen can be rather disappointing, depending on what you're looking for. He used to say, if you want to have some extraordinary states, you should take LSD. But if you want to find clarity of mind, then you can do Zazen. And Zazen is not some special state of mind that you try to induce. through meditation.

[05:42]

Marx, Karl Marx called religion the opiate of the people. And in some way he was right. To look to religion as an opiate or a panacea to all of your ills, or some kind of heavenly way. You know, we talk about nirvana, right? And nirvana seems like some heavenly way. So religion can really be deceptive. Religion is half good and half bad, I would say. Or maybe 10% good and 90% bad, depending on how you look at it.

[06:57]

So the purpose of meditation, or zazen, is not to attain some extraordinary states of mind, but how to be real, how to see reality. That's the purpose of zazen, is to be real and see reality with your own eyes. and experience reality with your body and mind. I was reading Adele Lara a couple of days ago, and she was poo-pooing all the Zen books, you know, the Zen books. She said, and you could see how she misinterpreted the purpose of quietness, and meditation, because she was thinking that you're supposed to have these quiet states, which means peacefulness.

[08:21]

And peacefulness means that you don't get agitated or worried. So she would try sitting down quietly for a while and doing this kind of meditation But she found that as soon as she sat down, she was very irritated and agitated. She said, well, what use is this? This is not what I'm trying to get out of this. What she didn't realize is that meditation doesn't mean that your mind is peaceful when you sit down. It means that you see the reality of your agitation. You see the reality of your painfulness. They don't disappear. You just see them as they are. So it's like riding through life without too many cushions, except this one, which can get very hard.

[09:31]

just see things as it is. I wanted to write her a letter explaining her misinterpretation, but every day I read the editorials and I want to write a letter about something that I never do. But So selling spiritual practice as something wonderful that will take away all your cares and worries and make you feel comfortable and nice and sweet and all this, it's not it.

[10:41]

That's selling the wine of delusion, if you advertise in that way. That's why we don't really advertise. We don't advertise this practice. And we don't promise anything. We say, if you sit zazen, the result will be that you sit zazen. In a lot of practices, people say, if you do this, you'll be saved, and if you do that, you'll be... and invite people, inviting a lot of people into this wonderful thing. But it's hard to invite people into this wonderful practice, because it's not so wonderful. It's really not.

[11:42]

So we don't try to fool people into thinking that they're going to get something. That's the main reason why we don't invite a lot of people, you know, advertise and invite people to come to the practice, because there's nothing for them. You have to kind of wander in somehow, and if it feels right, then you do it. If it doesn't feel right, then you're not ready for that yet. Or maybe you come around again. People do this. They come in for a while, go away, and then six months later they come back again. And then, nope, a year later, not quite. And then, boom, something clicks. I know a lot of you have come in that way. So, somehow there's some attraction to the practice, which is like

[12:49]

a magnet for, you know, if the particles are steel or iron, then they'll be attracted to the magnet. If they're aluminum, they go somewhere else. So, when there's affinity for the practice, then you become attracted to it, you know, boom, this is it. And you don't even understand it, you know. People come to me and Talk to me, and I'll say, I've been doing this for five years, but I don't know why I'm doing it. I don't understand it. Ten years. Ten years. I know I've been doing this for a long time, but I really don't understand it, and I don't know why I'm doing this. That's wonderful. None of us knows why we're doing this. But yet, there's some reason why we're doing this.

[13:52]

And we know that there is. But when your mother asks you, you can't explain it to her. When your neighbor asks you, why can't I explain this? I've been doing this for 10 years and I still can't explain it to my neighbor. It's inexplicable. But still, we have to make an effort to say something. So just say something, but be careful that you don't promise too much. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, the reason we do this is to do it, just to do it, because it's just a wonderful thing to do. And also, you don't have to satisfy everybody's mind. You can't satisfy everybody's mind.

[14:53]

This is why the ancients had koans. Because the koan is a way of expressing what practice is. And the reason people don't understand it is because it's not an explanation. It's an expression. The koan is not an explanation. I don't like them damn koans because they always boggle my mind, you know, I don't know what's going on." Well, of course not, because it's not an explanation. If you're looking to the koan as an explanation, you'll only be disappointed. It's an expression of realization. So, just listen to it. Just be open to the koan and let it enter you. If you really think about this koan, it works inside of you. And then it gives expression to your understanding.

[16:00]

Or somehow, at some point, you say, ah, I see this. So this is why Suzuki Roshi, of all the teachers that came to the United States in the 60s, the 50s, he came the late 50s, 59, 58, 59, 59. And a lot of teachers came in the 60s from Japan and various places. And they all were tooting enlightenment. Kensho and enlightenment. And the Kensho, experience was the big carrot for the students. And if you really sit hard and work hard, you will have a Kensho experience.

[17:06]

And then they would come to Dogusan and see who had the Kensho experience. Suzuki Yoshi never did that. He took the Kensho experience and enlightenment and put them over there. Oh, enlightenment, definitely. But he didn't try to force people into enlightenment, or his understanding of enlightenment was not the Kensho experience. And a lot of teachers and students would look down at Suzuki Goshi and say, oh, he's not enlightened. But actually, Suzuki Roshi's understanding was that practice and enlightenment... Practice is enlightenment. Enlightenment is synonymous with practice. And practice is synonymous with enlightenment.

[18:10]

So, instead of emphasizing enlightenment, he emphasized practice. Just practice. If you start looking for, grasping for this altered state that you think is enlightenment. You're just chasing after rainbows. And he proved to be right in the end. People stopped pushing the Kensho experience at some point. One can have an enlightening experience. And we should have enlightening experiences. But to create a system of enlightening experiences is very academic. Soto Zen practice is more like

[19:23]

When you walk in the fog, you don't realize that your clothes are getting wet until you reach down and touch them. Rather than standing under a cloudburst, it's more like walking in the fog. And when you walk in the fog, things are a little bit hazy. You know kind of where you are, but there's some uncertainty. And there's dimness. But you find your way in this fog, right? But little by little, you have some realization without knowing that you have it. And then at some point you say, you know, I realize that I'm not thinking the way I used to.

[20:26]

I'm not acting the way I used to. My understanding is different than it was. And you realize that this realization, which comes not in a flash, but almost unawares. And it's not like some tremendous altered state, although that can happen. That's fine, too. So in the 60s, there was a lot of smoking, and shooting up, and chewing, and swallowing, and so forth.

[21:31]

This brought people that the experiences that people were having led them to try meditation practice. And so when people came to the meditation practice, they thought they were going to trade in their chemical highs or natural high. And then Suzuki Roshi took it all away, took everything away. He took away the chemical highs and he took away the meditation high as well, took all that away. And people who were very hip, became very square. Everybody was so hip, you know. And then after they started practicing with nothing, everything taken away, they became very sober, very sober, and became very square, very interesting, and began to reevaluate

[22:46]

create a new life from sobriety. Of course, everyone's mind is not sober, whether they take something or not. So people are the way they are. Some people have a naturally intoxicated mind, whether they take something or not. And that's wonderful. We have to be very careful that there's not just one kind of Zen student. Sometimes people look and say, what kind of a person is a Zen student? And try to categorize a certain kind of person as to height and So with drinking, one doesn't get insights so much.

[24:25]

Drinking, one becomes happy or depressed or boisterous or aggressive, but it's not like having deep insights. But when one takes marijuana or certain drugs, LSD, one has insights. that taking drugs was insight. So I remember everybody was taking LSD and having great insights and chewing peyote and having great insights. Before LSD, it was peyote. And I don't know if you've ever eaten it or not, but it's very bitter. And there's something about peyote that's different than LSD.

[25:31]

LSD was the chemical equivalent of peyote, which took displaced peyote, took the place of peyote. But of course the Indians, Southwest Indians, all, not all, but I mean certain tribes, have always eaten peyote as a religious experience. And I remember taking peyote in the 50s, eating it, and it's very bitter, and you get sick. And then you start to have your insights. And all through the experience, there's nausea that kind of comes and goes. So in some way, you're paying for your high. It's not like some pleasant feeling. It's like going through a real self-evaluation

[26:33]

and getting some insight into yourself and your surroundings. And it can be very enlightening, actually. LSD was somewhat the same, not exactly, but a little different. I know a lot of you have done all this, maybe some of you haven't, but the thing about drugs, insight drugs, is that they open a curtain, you know, they part the curtain, and you see, ta-dum, you know, all this insight into life. And then, at the end, the curtain closes. And you go, well, I want to get there again. So you take some more, And it opens. But pretty soon, it becomes distorted.

[27:37]

And you can't keep having the insight, having the momentary insight over and over again. In order to progress, you have to put aside the inducer that opened the curtain and do the work. to find yourself. So this, I felt, was what people wanted to do. They wanted to put aside the chemical and do the work. And that's what Suzuki Yoshi was offering people. Do the work. If you do the work, there's enlightenment. Enlightenment is within the work. One moment of work is a moment of enlightenment. You say, well, where's the enlightenment? I don't feel anything special.

[28:40]

That's because enlightenment is not something special. When you try to hold on to it, or look for it, if you try to understand what is a mouse by dissecting the mouse, you find out interesting things about the mouse. But you don't find mouseness. So... Yes? It's notable that quite often the very content of the insight of the drug experience itself is quote-unquote, you haven't done the work yet. Yeah. So sometimes it turns you straight back to work anyway. If you have biases. So, insight, however you get it, is good. Whatever it is that turns you, and it can be intoxicants, it can be an experience you have, it can just be a flash in a moment for no reason at all.

[29:51]

So, intoxicants have their place. They do have their place. When sometimes people ask me about intoxicants, well, you know, the precept says, don't take intoxicants, right? Well, does that mean I can never have a beer? Or can I have a glass of wine? From my point of view, it doesn't mean that. If you People are having a social gathering and there's some champagne or some wine or beer. With some sense of control, you can have a glass of wine or a glass of beer. That's not what the precept is about, that you can never have anything. The precept is about controlling Keeping your mind clear.

[30:58]

Not becoming intoxicated. You can drink, you can have a glass of wine without becoming intoxicated. Suzuki Roshi, I remember he'd go to a party, people would invite him to parties, he'd go to the party and he was offered to drink. So he'd have one glass of He would drink it, I think. Some of it. Maybe not all of it. And that was it. He would just accept this because he wanted to be part of what was happening. So he didn't say, oh no, I don't drink. He would take it. And he would drink some of it. Even though he never drinks. Or he's a monk. Or whatever. He would always drink some of it. and not make people feel that they were foolish by drinking something. So he always felt it was more important to participate just a little bit with people in order to not stand outside of

[32:25]

their life or to embarrass people and make them feel like I'm a vegetarian. I remember one time at Tassajara there was somebody who was bragging about being a vegetarian and just kind of tooting it all over the place. And he took him out of Tassajara. When they left Tassajara one time, He took him to a hamburger stand and bought him a hamburger. Please eat. Do you want to take a picture? Do you want to take a picture? We'll take a break and then we can have a discussion.

[33:32]

So, wine or some kind of wine or liquor is often used sanctimoniously. men, after they have their shul on Saturday morning, they go in the back room and take out a bottle of whiskey and pour a little shot for everybody, then they all have a drink. So, I think it's nice to, you know, if you put it out of sight, you know, and never look at it or never touch it,

[34:56]

then it becomes something. It can become something. Not necessarily, but it can become something. So in some ways, it's good to be able to acknowledge it and recognize it and honor it. Like money. Because money is the root of evil. But money has to be sanctified. When money is sanctified, then it's very useful. And it has to be honored. Because it's an expression of each other and interact with each other. Why should it be evil? We make it evil because it's not money that is evil. People are evil, sort of. They hoard it. They keep it. And they don't let it circulate. When it circulates, it's wonderful. But when it doesn't, it causes big problems. Anyway, there are a lot of people who have had addictive habits.

[36:00]

And so it's good to, for those people, the sake of those people, just not put it out. And not raise up the expectation of drinking something. Because if you're an alcoholic, a retired alcoholic, You're always subject to temptation. And you should never even have one. If you stop smoking, you should never have a cigarette again. As soon as you smoke that cigarette after five years, you're hooked. So be very careful. I stopped smoking in 1973. And I said to myself, I never have another one.

[37:05]

And I haven't. I never missed it. The day I left it, I never, since the day I left it, I never missed it. It was wonderful. But if I'd had one 10 years later, I'd be hooked. So we have to be very careful. Some people can deal with it, some people can't. But it's best to just, you don't need it, don't use it. So the clarity of mind is the most precious thing. Freedom from delusion is the most precious thing. Never mind being enlightened. Just be free from delusion. I'd like to hear what you might have to say, or questions.

[38:14]

Well, I'm curious about the motivation for people to want to take mind-altering substances, even little children. different kind of reality or consciousness. And that seems to be, there's maybe something wholesome within that. No. I don't think so. I think it's unwholesome. And I think that it's because somebody does it and it's cool that kids are attracted to it. I don't think they're attracted to it for any other reason. Well, they may be, I mean, you know, but mostly for any other reason than There's no reason for a kid, unless they're really next to suicide or something like that.

[39:21]

But for a normal child, there's no reason for them to change their state of mind. Because as you grow up, I mean, the child's state of mind is so pure. Why mess it up? Why would a child want to mess up their mind? And I remember that's the way I always felt about or any of those things, up until I was 23 or something, 22. And then everybody was smoking grass. And so I did it too. And then I became addicted to it. And instead of it being enjoyable, it was awful. But I couldn't, you know, I craved it. what I realized was that I had lost my clarity.

[40:23]

I lost the clarity of mind that I always had, up until that point, and didn't realize it. I didn't realize how precious that clarity of mind was, even though I did. After I stopped doing that, my clarity of mind was there. appreciated it, you know, how wonderful it was to re-establish, to just let that be, you know, and that clarity of mind was the greatest high there is. Just a normal clarity of mind is a great high. I mean it's, you know, figuratively speaking. Yeah, I think you said that You know, some people, they can sit five years, ten years, and they say they don't know why they're sitting. Well, it seems to me that people don't go on sitting unless they feel that they're getting somewhere, that there's a payoff.

[41:25]

I mean, that sounds very crass, but people don't come and spend hours sitting here without feeling that there's a payoff. And sometimes that payoff is the feeling of a natural high, that you start to dilute your delusions to the point where And so, you can probably unwisely try and describe this to somebody who's not familiar with the practice. But, I mean, if I were to do this, I would also say that you have to go through a lot of pod work before you get to those places. And those places come and go. You know, you have an insight, or a mini-enlightenment, and then you fall back back down again into the shadows, but I don't think that anybody sits for any length of time without feeling... and they couldn't do it unless it made them feel better, unless it made their lives better.

[42:28]

Right. You can call it high if you want, but at some point you realize that even that is too much the expectation of something like a natural heart. When we sit Zazen, you know, somebody was talking to me about sitting in that seat over there and looking out the door, and during Zazen, you know, everything was sparkling and When we actually see things the way they are, it feels like we're tripping out, because it's so different from what we're used to. Yeah, we're just getting back to, or coming up to, we don't realize that we're underwater, and that we're just coming up to the surface.

[43:39]

she has and I have. But then why do you keep sitting? I think routine is a very See, he's getting high. I think that we do feel it's high, right? But that is because it's in contrast to our usual state of mind, right?

[44:59]

And when your practice matures, Sometimes people's practice matures, and then they say, well, things are just kind of ordinary. Because it's not something to contrast with. When it's not something to contrast with, then everything just looks ordinary again. There is a high, so to speak, which is an opening and a seeing, which is different from your low. But it's not an extraordinary state. It's an ordinary state. And when that's there most of the time, then that just seems ordinary. I remember Suzuki Roshi talking about being at Eheiji, and the monks' practice at Eheiji.

[46:08]

And after practicing for a couple of years, it's just ordinary life. He said the people would come, visitors would come, and they'd say, how extraordinary this is. And they'd say, what's extraordinary? This is just our normal life. It's just our everyday lives. What seems extraordinary becomes ordinary. We don't try to induce that extraordinary state. That's just our eyes opening. And that comes with hard practice or continuous practice. So whatever comes, comes.

[47:11]

Sometimes it's a very open state, an extraordinary state or whatever. But if you think this is it, then that's a problem. Well, as soon as you do, then you get caught, and you realize you've lost it. That's right. As soon as you think, this is extraordinary, or something, and I want it, and I want to save this, and preserve it, and put it in my pocket, or do it again, then you're caught. I just want to say about Greg's question, it seems to me, on the other hand, that human beings, it seems natural that to different degrees we push the envelope. I mean, it's like Buddha, you know, going to one extreme, going to the other extreme, then deciding on the middle way. How do we know what our middle way is unless we push all kinds of extremes? Yes, exactly. That's how we find it. Exactly. So when you start to practice, you should push yourself totally. Yes. But I'm thinking about other aspects of life as well.

[48:16]

Well, whatever you do, You should do totally. That's practice. Thoroughly, totally. Everything. You mean if you drink, you should get drunk? Well, don't drink. That's why the precept says don't drink. But if you do get drunk, get thoroughly drunk. If you say, I'm going to get drunk, get thoroughly drunk. But don't do it. Yes, do everything thoroughly. Yes. But my understanding is when you say that, do it thoroughly, to do it through and through, which isn't the same as more. No, it's not the same as more. No. But sometimes what thorough means is over and over again. The thing about doing something thoroughly is when you do something thoroughly, there's no repetition.

[49:20]

It's only when you do something unthoroughly that it seems like repetition. But when you do something thoroughly, there's only this moment's experience, which is unrepeatable. And what about if you seem to find yourself in the same situation over and over? You have to say what situation it is that you mean. Because some situations you should want to be in over and over again. The ones you don't. Look at it. See what it really is. Look at it with a very sober eye. Not somber. Sober. Everyone must get high in some way, absent religion, poetry, etc, etc.

[50:36]

And I was thinking about what Greg said, maybe getting high could be instinctive. not another way, but a way to live. Not to be pouring whiskey and blow down a big hole that will never be filled, but a way just to live with that hole. That's right. The way of life is the key. Absolutely. Then, when it's a way of life, you can accept what's good. You can accept what's bad. You can accept what's high. You can accept what's low.

[51:38]

You can accept everything that comes and you don't get moved off your spot. That's why it's called nirvana. It doesn't mean when I first started taking LSD was because of the Vietnam War. And a group of my friends, we dropped out of college together, and we thought we'd find the answer through LSD. And after a couple of years of that, one of my friends I started doing that with, we were in Alaska, and out in this remote place, and I was saying, well, you know, and it was the last time I took LSD, because I remember that it wasn't going to give the answer, you know, after about 20 times. Maybe 25 times, but he was convinced because he had read something about enlightenment in the Dalai Lama.

[52:40]

He started talking to me, I mean, I was thinking about enlightenment, where is it? I realized it wasn't going to happen. It's a dead end. So that was one thing. And then something else that resonated with me, he stopped smoking cigarettes about the same time I did. But I remember clearly for like about two months, when I had a beer, I had that urge to have a cigarette. So it took me two months to get over that. And now I was okay. I haven't smoked since then. But I do have a question. There are two different styles. And eventually they stopped doing that. You don't find people doing that anymore, I don't think. Because it became a kind of contest to see who was going to get Kensho.

[53:57]

And then this one is, you know, passed the test, you know, and these people didn't pass the test. It becomes a kind of comparative, you get into this kind of comparative values practice. Spiritual materialism. Spiritual materialism. Yes, kind of spiritual materialism. That's right. Very much so. It's better to have, I think, a practice where everybody feels the same. And those people who are enlightened, you never know who they are. Necessarily. They don't know themselves. And they may not know themselves. And because the Sangha, you know, moves together like an organism, and enlightened activity is what keeps it together and keeps it working.

[55:14]

And to say, I am enlightened, is delusion. So, never mind who's enlightened and who's not. Some people seem enlightened sometimes, you know. But there is enlightenment within the Sangha. But if you try to pick it out, there's nothing there. I heard you say something like, at the very beginning, meditation is not that your mind is peaceful. It's okay for your mind to be peaceful. But to see the reality of your agitation, or something to that effect. I think you were talking about this Faron's lady, whatever, a remark to her misunderstanding of Zen and Zen books. And I guess I'm curious because at this moment I'm not agitated, but I'm very angry.

[56:21]

And so, you know, I hear this and I interpret it into my own personal Is there any credence to that reality, for that anger, or is it just a matter of just seeing it and not trying to figure out where it comes from, why it comes from, why it's here? Is there any truth to this or not? How do you see, I mean, how does one look at that reality of anger, for instance? Right, well, when the anger arises, when anger arises, Anger has arisen. You don't say, I'm angry. As soon as you say, I am angry, then I arises with anger. Just let anger arise. And does it matter that there's a justified anger or not? Well, whether anger is justified or not, do you want to be an angry person?

[57:33]

Where do you want your life to be? Do you want your life to be consumed by anger? No, I don't want that. What do you want? I want clarity. Okay. So, with clarity, look at anger has arisen. And do not say, I am angry. Just let anger arise. Sometimes anger is justified, you know, but if... The problem is that anger takes over and then the mind is filled with anger and there has to be something, some result from the anger. So what is the result?

[58:38]

Will you project it out? Will you project it in? If you can't project it out, then you project it in as frustration. So if your practice is Zazen, then just come back to Zazen. Come back to your breath. Come back to breathing. And calm the mind with the breath. If you want to express anger, go ahead. But if you don't want to, if you want to live in the calmness of your mind, then just come back to breathing. And don't try to push the anger away. Just come back to breathing. It's just like sitting in Zazen. When you sit in Zazen, things come up. And then you let go and you come back. So you're always coming back to here.

[59:40]

And this is where you live. And although you live here, sometimes something comes up in the mind, right? And then you come back. And you come back. And you keep coming back. Always keep returning to Zazen. And then you can decide, well, what should I do about this anger? So from a calm place, you make some decisions. And then you may not need to do something. You may feel calmness. Sometimes you have to swallow things. Maybe you can accept the insult, or accept the hurt, or whatever it is. Being able to accept that, and knowing, well, this is what I am doing, not out of decision, puts you in control.

[60:50]

That's all I'm going to say about it. Nirvana is samsara. Can you say that again, please? Oh, yes. Freed from every perverted view. Perverted view means upside down. The upside down views, topsy-turvy views, There are a number of them. One is to think that what is actually pain is pleasure. That's a perverted view. To think what is not beneficial is beneficial. That's a perverted view. To think what is not real is real.

[61:54]

That's a perverted view. Nirvana is living in non-duality without views, or without topsy-turvy, upside-down views. So when you sit in Zazen, even though you may have, there may be a lot of pain, and displeasure, not displeasure, but a lot of pain and discomfort, you are not dividing your mind between liking it and not liking it. And when there's no liking or disliking, but just being with what is actually there,

[62:58]

without trying to change it, or without giving it, creating a duality, then you're one with the universe, and that's nirvana. Isn't there an unspoken aspect to this precept What about it? That goes along with intoxication. Well, of course, addiction goes along with intoxication. Yeah, that's right. It does. You don't necessarily have to be intoxicated by something to be addicted to it. Well, I always say the first time is a taste. The second time is a curiosity. after the taste.

[64:01]

The third time is biting into it. And after that, you're hooked. Ross had something to say. where an individual accepts, say, the boredom of a job, a situation, the meaninglessness of that. And when is it sort of escaping that and looking for something that's more interesting, more than speaks to their heart?

[65:11]

We live in an addictive society. And what we don't realize is, a lot of us don't realize, is that a lot of the goals that we have are addictive goals. We get addicted to money. We get addicted to objects. We get addicted to... Emotions. To what emotions? Emotions. Emotions, oh yeah. We get addicted to anger. We get addicted to lust. We get addicted, you know, it's really easy. To being successful. Huh? To success at whatever you're doing. To success at whatever you're doing. Oh yeah, to be obsessed, yeah. To be capable. Yeah, so we do have our addictions. And, you know, wanting to keep progressing in our work, you know, it's good, I mean, I can't, you know, who can complain about that, except that

[66:17]

I remember Katagiri Roshi used to say about Americans, you know, in most other countries, a person will have a job or some career or something, and they stay with that all their life. And whatever, you know, they accept that as not fate, but their destiny. And within that destiny, good things come up, bad things come up. All of life passes through that position. And in some way, it's like Zazen practice. You just do it every day without deciding whether it's good or bad or wishing for something. You just do it. And within the practice, you see reality because the position doesn't change.

[67:25]

Because it's the one stable thing, you can see how change works through that. But at the same time, who's who to say that you shouldn't change careers? But when something starts getting boring, why is it boring? Why is it uninteresting? Why is your life... We want to change things when they get difficult or boring. really look at your life, you know. And so we keep evading it. It's easy to evade the problem. And every time we make a change, we find we have the same problem in what we changed to. So until we're ready to settle with something and just, you know, go deeply into what the problems are, we just keep avoiding them so that we can get addicted to changing.

[68:32]

or dancing around so that we don't have to face things. On that sense of when to change a job or marriage or anything else and when to stay with it to see what you can get out of staying with it, for me it's been really important to never try to judge that from the outside for myself or anybody else. When you see someone working in a quiet undemanding job or whatever for many, many, many years. For one person, that can be cowardice and complacency and stultification and whatever. And for another person, it can be a deep spiritual practice. And for myself, the only way to know is I know inside myself whether I'm seeking change because I'm trying to escape something or whether I'm allowing change to happen because the flower is ripening or opening or change is happening. paying attention, then I simply know when it's time to move.

[69:41]

I don't have to make it happen. I don't have to seek it. I just know that it's time. I agree. One can just be very complacent and not want to move because they're frightened to move. Fearful. Fearful. But to do your best in the position you are in, you find yourself in, just really do your best. mostly, most of the time, the change will come about that you're supposed to take. And as you said, you will know when it's time to move, and circumstances will give you the opportunity. That's usual, I think. If one is really into it, into what they're doing, giving their full attention, full body-mind to whatever it is, you know, washing dishes, And you're not going to, if you're really paying attention, you're not going to fail to look at anyone that applies.

[70:41]

That's right. You know, when Sansanin, the Korean teacher, came to America, he washed dishes. You know, he worked in a restaurant washing dishes. And he washed dishes like a Zen master, you know. And he didn't try to get students, or he didn't try to do any of those things. Because he just put himself totally into this insignificant position, which was very significant. And things just happened. That's real practice. It's 9 o'clock. refused to describe it at all, but the one thing he would say was that it was bliss.

[71:48]

Yes. Couldn't it be that if we're doing Zazen to see reality, that reality really is bliss? Yes, if you understand what bliss is. What is it? Well, nirvana is samsara. We are neverless.

[72:16]

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