I was at Tassajara over the weekend and I caught a cold somehow, sore throat and a cold. And they said, I hope that I can come through in the back. Otherwise, a lot of room up in the front. If anybody feels that they're not hearing, you can just come up in front, plenty of room. And if you feel that you can't hear, just go like this. Tonight is our last class. And for the last, for this time, we're going to study Tiantong Rujing, known as Tiandong Youzhou in our lineage.

[01:46]

And Rujing from Tiandong, or Tiantong, was We're dogging with China. he dug in a hole

[02:54]

He studied with Shui Tu, and Shui Tu asked him, Disciple Ru Jing, how could something that has never been soiled be cleaned? The Master spent more than a year on this question. Suddenly he was awakened and said, I have hit upon that which is not soil. Clearly, as it's, how can you purify something which has never been defiled? So that's the case. And this case doesn't come up again until the end. And these are the circumstances. The master was a native of Yuezhu. Yuezhu. And his initiatory name was Rujing.

[04:32]

After the age of 17, he abandoned doctrinal studies and practiced Zen. He joined Xue Tu's community and spent a year there. He always excelled in Zazen. One time, he asked to be the sanitation officer. Sanitation officer, kind of a high class term. Shui Tu asked him, well, how could something that has never been soiled be cleaned? If you can answer that, then I will appoint you to be the sanitation officer. This sounds a little strange, but sanitation officers Usually at the monastery, it's the job of the shuso, the head monk, often.

[06:01]

At Tassajara, it's the job, the shuso usually does toilets, and also the compost, turning the compost. Turning the compost is the big job of the shuso. So it's really quite an honored position to clean the toilets. So you might wonder, well, why does he want to do that, if you don't understand this? So the master was at a loss. After several months, he still had no answer. And once, Shui Tu invited him to his quarters and asked him, do you have an answer for our earlier discussion? And the master was still unable to answer. Again, Shui Du asked, how could something that has never been soiled be cleaned?

[07:10]

The master did not answer for more than a year. Again, Shui Du asked, Can you answer? The master still could not answer. Xue Du said, if you can climb out of your old rut, you will be free. Then you'll be able to answer. So it all depends on climbing out of your old rut. So what is our old rut? Hearing this, the master investigated with One day he was suddenly awakened, and he went to Shwe Du's quarters and told him, I can answer now. Shwe Du said, this time, say it. And the master said, I have hit upon that which is not soiled. Hit is like, ah, hm. means like directly touching, right?

[08:19]

Sometimes a teacher will say to a student, I will hit you. So this hitting means doing something directly. You know, when we use the stick, the kiyosaku in the zendo, and we hit you on the shoulder, this hitting is like doing something directly. We can say, don't go to sleep, or wake up, or don't let your mind wander. But hitting is something direct. And when the hit is, well done, then you disappear, I disappear, and the stick disappears. So he said, I have hit upon that which is not solid.

[09:28]

And even before he finished speaking, Shui Tu hit him. So what does it mean that Shui Tu hit him? I mean, we could hit each other, you know, but it's not the same as when Shui Du hit him. When Shui Du hit him, there was no master, no Shui Du, and no hitting. Everything disappeared. The master broke out in a sweat and bowed. Then Shui Dou gave him his approval. So later at Jing Tzu Monastery, he became the toilet cleaner in order to repay the occasion of his awakening. Once, when he was passing the hall of the Arhats, a strange monk said to the master, cleaner of toilets,

[10:39]

at Qing Tzu, Rujing. Cleaner of toilets at Qing Tzu, Rujing. You repay the way. Repay the master and you repay all the people. So saying, he disappeared. This is very common in Chinese storytelling. People appear And in China, he had a kind of mystical feeling about him. And often, usually, he was depicted in paintings and in sculpture sometimes as a youth with long black hair. Not a monk or a priest, but as a young,

[11:45]

somewhere between maybe an adolescent or a teenage, a little bit beyond a teenager, maybe about 19 or 20. And I think that he felt that he lived on Mount Futai. And people would see him every once in a while, but they would say, people would go to seek Monjushri on Mount Butai. But they'd meet a youth, a shepherd, a ragamuffin. And they'd say, do you know the way to, I'm looking for Monjushri. Do you know where he might be? And he'd say, oh, yes. Go on up, go up to the top of the mountain." And then the youth would disappear.

[12:51]

And the guy would realize, oh, wait a minute, this is what I've been looking for. So they would never quite get it, but he'd always give them some kind of message, give them some kind of go on or something. So this person, It seems like this kind of... But this is a monk. Sometimes Monjushri is a monk. Here, this is a monk. So a strange monk said, cleaner of toilets at Ching Tzu. you repay the way, repay the master, and repay all people. So, as we know, a monk like Ruijing, who is supported by people in order to practice, has a debt to repay.

[14:05]

So, one doesn't get supported For nothing, everyone has to earn their own living. So it seems like monks are given alms. They don't earn their own living. But actually, they do earn their own living. But they earn their own living by practicing and teaching the Dharma. And so they beg for their food. We have this passage that says, does our practice, virtual practice, deserve this offering? Because what it is, is an offering. Even though we buy the food and we make the food and we're served the food by each other, still, the food is an offering. The way we eat and receive the food and the way it's prepared and served is as an offering.

[15:10]

So we do a lot of chanting before we have the meal, because the meal is an offering. And we say, do our virtue and practice deserve this food? And this is the monks understanding that through their virtue and their practice, they repay the kindness of their donors. So he says, you repay the way, the Dharma, you repay the master, and you repay all the people. So you repay your way, your debt to society for being supportive. So monks should be working very hard at practice.

[16:12]

Because when the monks are supported by the people, then the monks are practicing not just for themselves, but for the sake of the people that are supporting them. So it's a kind of relationship that works both ways. And we don't have that kind of practice in our country. But this is the way of practice in India and Southeast Asia, and sometimes in China. Although in China, in the Zen monasteries, when Buddhism came to China, The Chinese people are very industrious and family-oriented.

[17:14]

And not only were a lot of the young men going to the monasteries and the women, and leaving the families, not getting married, but they weren't killing the fields. And so the Chinese people didn't take to begging. So eventually, the monks went to work tilling their own fields. And you know, there's the famous saying by Pai Chong that the day of no work is the day of no eating. This is a kind of revolutionary in Buddhism, actually, for monks. Because the monks in India and in Asia We're not allowed to have money, or own anything, or till the soil at all. They're just supported by islands.

[18:17]

But wherever Buddhism goes, it has to adjust to the society that it goes to. And so you don't find so much begging. You find a little bit of begging in Japan. Takahatsu. and some in China, but things changed. And in America, I mean, where the monasteries, you know, own their own fields and have laborers and so forth. And in America, everybody just goes to work in some way or another. And some people are supported, some priests are supported, It's not the same kind of relationship as in India or in Southeast Asia. And so when monks come from Southeast Asia, they don't know how to relate to American Buddhists because our practice is so different and customs are so different.

[19:24]

So, anyway, to get back to our story, so say the old monk disappeared, and the prime minister of the country heard about this and interpreted it Consequently, he became the abbot of Qingtzu. People everywhere said that the master's merits of repaying his debt were really supreme. Since arousing the determination to be awakened at the age of 18, he stayed in the monastery and never returned to his native home. Not only that, but he never associated it with his countrymen. He did not speak with those who sat near him in the meditation hall. All he ever did was a single-minded zazen. He vowed, I will sit so long that I will crush a diamond seed.

[20:34]

As a result of doing zazen like this, sometimes the flesh on his butt split open. But he would not stop sitting. From the time he first aroused this determination up to the age of 64, While he was at Mount Tien Tung, there was not a single day or night when he did not do zazen. So he was very determined and single-minded and a very strong teacher, a strong practitioner. We are respected by everyone because of this. So from the time that he first became abbot of Qing Tzu, and during the time he was at Mount Shui Yan and Mount Tien Tung, his conduct was outstanding.

[21:45]

And he vowed to be the same as monks, excuse me, in the monks hall. In other words, not different than the ordinary monk. Therefore, even though he had the symbolic patch robe transmitted by Fu Rung, Fu Rung is Fuyo Dōkai, he did not wear it. In other words, he did have the robe of Fuyo Dōkai, but he never did wear it. Whether giving formal talks or in his own quarters, he only wore a black robe, black okesa and koromo. And even though he was offered a purple robe and a master's title by the emperor of the Cha Ting era, he declined them. So he would only wear, you know, he didn't wear anything much different than everyone else. He didn't set himself up in a very differential way.

[22:51]

And this, Dogen also was And he said, if I wear this, the monkeys will laugh at me. And this robe of Fuyo, he didn't wear the robe. Sometimes when you have Dharma transmission and your teacher gives you a robe, you usually don't wear that robe, but you just keep that robe, and maybe on special Furthermore, he kept secret the matter of who made him his successor, only revealing it at the end when he was about to die by offering incense in recognition.

[23:56]

He not only kept far away from mundane desires and fame, but he was also concerned for the good reputation of Zen. Truly, no one at the time equaled his virtue. His conduct was exemplary both now and then. So he always said to himself, in the last century or two, the way of the ancestral teachers has declined. Therefore, no spiritual teacher like me has appeared. All other teachers were in awe of him, and the master never praised them. He would say, since the age of 19, when I made a strong resolve and went on pilgrimage to visit teachers, I have not met anyone who was enlightened. or who is imbued with the way, is the way Cleary translates it. Many masters greet visiting officials and never concern themselves with the monks hall. They always say, each person must understand the Buddhadharma himself.

[24:58]

So saying, they do not guide the monks. What is more, the present abbots of the great monasteries do the same. They think that not caring about anything is the way, and they never emphasize Zen practice. What is this? What is this Buddhadharma? What is the Buddhadharma in this? If it is, as they say, then why are there still sharp old gimlets seeking the way? An old gimlet, you know, is like an old... A gimlet is something that you make holes with. So, old gimlet means gnarled old practitioner of the way. They do not see the way of the Buddha ancestors, even in a dream. So, Ruijing, you know, is complaining about the Buddha Dharma of his time.

[26:00]

And when Dogen went to China, there wasn't any Zen. And he thought by going to China that he would really touch base with something. And he was very disappointed when he got to China, because by the time he got to China, Zen was already, and Buddhism, was already declining. And he would complain about the state of And the Dharma is not the ethical thing in my mind. Kind of like what people experience in Japan when they go to Japan to study Buddhism.

[27:08]

Kind of a very similar situation. You can find some practice, but not so much. facade of practice. So what Dogen found when he went to China was the facade of practice. And Rui Jing, of course, was always complaining about it in his way. And Dogen, they both complained a lot about it. And Dogen was very happy to meet Rui Jing because he was such a, seemed to have such pure practice. which is characterized by everything's OK, just let everything happen as it happens, which is an aspect of practice which is correct.

[28:20]

But by itself, it's just a kind of lazy, lazy fear attitude. So the abbots were receiving healthy donors and entertainers and so forth, and not really taking care of the students. It seemed easy for them to say, well, you know, Are we supposed to take this indictment of all the teachers where it says that since he was 19, I never met anyone who was Don't take it literally.

[29:38]

If you take it literally, God, not one person? No, you know, we say things like this, right? This is a kind of statement, this is a kind of general statement, but I wouldn't take it as an explicit statement, pointing out, you know. It's a kind of complaint. Hyperbole. Yeah, it may be hyperbole. Actually, I'm sure he met a good number of realized people. And he used to invite, actually, according to Dogen, he used to invite a lot of the people that he considered realized teachers to an assembly. And then they would have a kind of a dharma assembly.

[30:40]

once a year, as a matter of fact. So it's not like he never met any people. He met Dogen. But it's just a way of saying that in the whole country there's not much going on. So in his diary, in which he recorded the master's many virtues, his attendant, Huang Ping, says that the official, Zhao Tiqiu, requested a Dharma talk. There's an official named Zhao Tiqiu, who requested a Dharma talk at the provincial government office. Because the official could not utter a phrase of understanding,

[31:45]

The master did not accept the 10,000 silver coins he was offered, but gave them back. When the official could not say anything, not only did the master refuse his offering, but he also turned his back on fame and fortune. In other words, he was given, you know, But since he didn't understand, his understanding was so poor, Rui Jing refused the money and refused to do anything with him. He was a very extreme kind of person. I can see how he and Dogen got along really well. They had a very similar kind of temperament. Therefore, he remained aloof from rulers and grand officials and did not receive the greetings of traveling monks."

[32:48]

Very aloof. Truly, his merits in following the way were extraordinary. And one time, he says, therefore, one time a Daoist elder named Dao Sheng and five of his followers vowed to practice in the master's community and not return to their native place until they experienced the way of the ancestral teachers. And the master was very pleased with their resolve and permitted them to have private practice with him without converting to Buddhism. When they lined up in the Dharma hall, they stood right behind the nuns. And this was quite rare at the time. So kind of a comparison, you know, even though these Taoists were not even Buddhists, since their resolve was so sincere, he accepted them. Also, a monk named Shan Ju said, I will remain with the master for all my life and never take a step south.

[33:51]

That means toward home. There were many like him who resolved never to leave the master's community. Fu, the gardener, did not know a single Chinese character. When he was 60, he aroused the determination to seek enlightenment for the first time. The master guided him carefully, and finally, he clarified the way. Though he was a gardener, he would, upon occasion, utter strange and wonderful things. I like that. Therefore, the master said that the abbots of the great monasteries were not foes equal. Subsequently, Ru Jing made him the keeper of scriptures, truly in a community where the way exists. There are many who have the way and are committed to it. And Dogen followed this kind of example in the beginning. entirely depends on your sincerity and your effort.

[35:03]

It's not necessary to be intelligent, and it's okay to be intelligent, but it doesn't matter either way. Sometimes it's much easier for someone who doesn't know anything, you know, because people good intellect and scholarly understanding, it's hard for them to abandon or let go of their little bit of understanding. And it kind of blocks their progress. So actually, someone like Foula Gardner, can be a very good candidate because he doesn't have so much to lose or to give up.

[36:08]

It just kind of goes right in. But some people are very naive. persuading them to do nothing but sit, he would say. There's no need for burning incense, bowing, invoking the Buddha, making repentance, or reciting the scriptures. And a lot of people say, oh, hey, that's great. Just sit, he would say. But he would say this because all around So he's kind of saying, if you sit zazen, you don't need to do all these other things, just sit zazen, it's enough.

[37:14]

You have to realize the time and the place and the circumstances. But it's true, really, all you have to do is sit zazen. But it's also nice to do these other things because they fill out your plate. It's like when you go to make your dinner. So he would say also, the important thing is being committed to the way when you practice Zen. Even though you have just a little understanding, you cannot hold on to what you know without a commitment to the way.

[38:22]

It's OK to have a little understanding, but it won't help you unless you have a commitment to the way. You end up with false views, become People do not forget the most important matter, commitment to the way. Utilize that commitment in everything you do. Make the truth foremost. Do not get caught up in fashion of the times, but continue to investigate the ancient style. I think that that's an important statement, to continue to investigate the ancient style, because so often we want to do things our own way. And people sometimes say, well, how come you are so formal?

[39:53]

But formality is a kind of way of investigating the ancient way, staying in touch with the past to learn something. So it's very easy, you know. I think in one generation, the tie can be broken very easily. of a drift doing something, but they don't know what it is that they're doing. So very important. I don't mean that we have to be like, we're not Japanese, and we're not Chinese, we're not Indian.

[40:59]

Some of us are, of course. That's true too. But what is the real thing to investigate? So we have a lot of help. And also, the more help we have, the better. If there's too much help, it's not so good. I agree with that. Just enough. So, to investigate the ancient style, ancient is ancient and that it seems ancient when we talk about it but when we say reenact or when we perform a When we do our practice, it's both ancient and new at the same time.

[42:24]

That's right. So here's the tational, finally. That was all sweet upstances. Tational's pretty short. If you are like this, then even if you have not yet understood it yourself, you will be an originally unsoiled person. Or undefiled is another translation. If you are like this, then even if you have not yet understood it yourself, you will be an originally unsoiled person. So if you have this kind of determination, this kind of pure practice, it doesn't matter whether you understand it or not.

[43:34]

This Dogon says the same thing. One may, in the Fukan Suzuki, one may not understand. It's great if you understand, but it's also okay if you don't. So, the important thing is that it's possible, because of the practice, and the form of the practice, it's because of the form of the practice, it's possible to practice without realizing, without having realization of your enlightenment. You can do it before you understand it. If we had to wait until we understood it before we did it, no one would be able to do it.

[44:35]

But actually, being able to practice is itself realization. But some may realize it and some may not. But one has to have some faith that practice is realization and realization is practice. But you may not realize it. But it doesn't matter, as long as you have pure practice. That's what he thinks. If you are like this, if you have this kind of practice, then even if you have not yet understood it yourself, you will be an originally undefiled person. Since you are unsoiled or undefiled, how can you not be an originally clean, pure person?

[45:38]

So this brings us back to the beginning of the case. What is there to clean? purify something that's originally not pure, not impure. Since you are unsoiled, how can you not be an originally clean, pure person? Shui Tu said, it is originally unsoiled, so how can it be cleaned? If you climb out of your rut, you will be free. The former enlightened masters originally did not bring about partial understanding. Committed to the single truth, they got people to practice with one objective, without self-concern. If for the entire 24 hours of the day there is no view of purity and defilement, you are naturally undefiled.

[46:48]

Well, maybe most of us don't think about whether we're pure or defiled, but somewhere it's there, good and bad, right and wrong. So this is an interesting statement without self-concern. not worrying about ourselves so much, or letting go of self, actually. The view of defilement is in the case, right?

[47:54]

He held on to the idea of using a broom to sweep it away. I'm going to practice cleaning the toilet to make it clean. Because we think, well, the toilet's a dirty place, so we must make it clean. This kind of teaching is practiced in the monastery. When you go to a Japanese monastery, Very clean. The monks spend a lot of time cleaning. But the place never gets dirty. You know, it's never dirty. They don't wait till it gets dirty to clean it. They just clean it, because cleaning is their practice. They don't say, the floor is dirty, so let's clean it.

[48:58]

No. We say, oh, the floor is dirty, so let's sweep it up. But the windows are getting pretty dirty now, let's clean them. So we have defilement and cleanliness, or dirt and cleanliness, or pure and impure. So things are impure now, so let's clean them up so that they get pure. But the window, actually, when you clean it, you see that the window There may be some dirt, but the window is always clean. Suzuki Roshi always used to teach us, just wash the window to wash the window.

[50:00]

to sleep the floor. Just brush your teeth to brush your teeth. Don't think, oh my teeth are dirty now so I'll brush them. It's just, you get up in the morning and just brush your teeth. Not to get them clean, but just because brushing is what you do. This is a non-dual practice. cleaning takes place. But the attitude is just brush your teeth because that's what you're doing. I was wondering also about using the broom. I was thinking earlier when you were talking that in some complex way he asked to be the toilet cleaner.

[51:05]

Yeah. Was that seeking a position? Well, I think it was seeking a humble position. Because it goes both ways. Cleaning the toilet is neither... You can see it as a full position or you can see it as an honored position. But it's actually neither. When it's neither humble nor honored, it's just cleaning the toilet. But it's tricky, because when you see a position as being a humble position, and you want to put yourself in that position, there can easily be something else there. Well, there are times when it's good to put yourself in the humble position. It's not good. to clean the toilets in order to raise yourself up.

[52:06]

That's egotistical, right? That's possible. So one has to be, just clean the toilet in the same way that you would clean the altar. If you have that attitude, it doesn't matter whether you're cleaning the altar, or cleaning the toilet, or brushing your teeth, or washing your diamonds. It's all the same. So you can't talk about it as humble or out of position either? No, you can't. That's right. You can, but... It depends on where you're looking at it from. Okay? You can talk about it from various points.

[53:09]

I was just going to say because, for example, in Zen, the more humble the higher. I mean, the more humble a thing you do, then you're really practicing and you're really doing it with the utmost so that it makes it only if there's no subconscious. So it doesn't matter high or low. It's okay. You can take on anything. It's okay to sweep the floor. It's okay to be president. And you go back and forth. So in this last paragraph, however, Rui Jing still had not escaped the view of defilement.

[54:25]

He held on to the idea of using a broom to sweep it away. After a year of not getting it clarified, remember, once there was no more skin to shed, nor mind and body that needed to shed, he said, I hit upon that which is unsoiled. Even though it was so, a spot of dirt suddenly appeared. You have to be careful. Therefore, it says that Shui Tu hit him even before he finished speaking. Then sweat broke out all over his body. He abandoned his body at once right then and there. He just needed that little hit. and he found the power. Truly, he realized that he was intrinsically clean and had never been subject to impurity.

[55:33]

This is why he always said, the practice of Zen is the drop He didn't use the stick. He used to come and hit people with his slipper. Some of the monasteries have dirt floors. They hate you. The monastery actually has a dirt floor. But it's packed so hard that it's like... which is still there. But he used to go around and hit the monks that are sleeping, you know, and say, people are feeding you, you know, so that you can practice.

[56:39]

You know, what are you doing falling asleep? And then he came to this monk next to Dogen and said, practice is dropping body and mind. What are you doing? He was a lazy. And then Dogen woke up when he heard this dropping body and mind. That was his kind of awakening experience. And of course, that became the theme of his teaching, dropping body and mind. him. Dropping body and mind, body and mind dropped. So then the verse, he says, now tell me what is, quote, that which is unsoiled, unquote.

[57:50]

What are we talking about? the way, circulating everywhere is harder than diamond. The whole earth is supported by it. So purity and impurity is very interesting, this whole duality between purity and impurity. The dualistic idea is to separate, if you just get everything

[58:58]

get out all the impurities, you'll just be left with what's pure. But there's an old saying that fish cannot live in pure water. extremely pure water, fish can't live. So purity, you know, is found within So purity and impurity go together.

[60:00]

Defilement and purity go together. And you can, when you look at Tosan's five ranks, you know, the absolute and the relative, right, can't do without each other. So in this realm of samsara, We can't get out of samsara in order to find nirvana. Nirvana has to come forth within This purity of confinement is a dualism which needs to be somehow set aside.

[61:08]

That's right. That's right. But it's very important within Buddhism. It's very important within Buddhism because this is what Buddhism has always been dealing with, pure and pure. But of course, this is all based on Mahayana philosophy, but beyond philosophy. So how do you find, how do you stay within, how can you make every, realize every moment as a sacred moment?

[62:34]

It's very hard. Nevertheless, it is what it is, anyway. So, you know, reality can't be unreality. Reality is always reality. Truth is always truth. And purity is found within the impure. And we realize it is just ordinary activity. So we say, you know, What do we say in the meal chant?

[63:55]

That it's considered an empty, convergent practice? Well, it's the ordinary, the, what do they state it? It exists in money, water, and purity by the Lord? Well, no, but, no, no. What's stated? Natural order of mind. Natural order of mind, right? Natural order of mind is, what does that mean? Natural order of mind. Natural order means ordinary, right? Ordinary mind. That's another way of expressing it. Ordinary mind is the way. But ordinary, not in the sense of duality, but ordinary in the sense of everything is buddhanature.

[65:05]

But it's very hard, you know, not to neglect things and not to treat things in a usual manner, kind of a mindful way. So mindfulness, paying attention to everything as buddhimature is ordinary everyday practice. I kind of took a meaning similar to that in the last I mean, I don't know what the Chinese text says, but to me it kind of suggests that same meaning, a kind of original style, sort of before anything put on it.

[66:11]

Well, I think that's a good point. Yeah, not someone's style necessarily, although, you know, original style comes through various styles, right? And we also have our own original style. So I think that's a very good observation. Original style, that's right. Before any special style. That doesn't negate any special style. traditional style is true mindfulness. So there's a Tsozang, you know, Tsozang is like a disciple.

[67:13]

We mentioned once in a while, Ongo Doyo's Dharma brother, Sozon, had a kind of dialogue with someone. This is the outcome of the dialogue. And the dialogue goes something like... It's hard for me to bring that up, but I just want to read what is his response. His response is, is he who truly sees the Tao.

[68:24]

A dragon singing in the dry woods. Dry woods is like, you know, a dead tree, right? One must be able to hear the dragon singing in the dead tree. If you realize that the dragon is singing in the dry wood, is the one who sees the Tao. And the skull has no consciousness. But wisdom's eye begins to shine in it. If joy and consciousness should be eliminated, then fluctuation and communication would cease. Those who deny this do not understand that purity is in the impure.

[69:28]

I should probably read you that whole case in order to really understand it well. What is that case? Well, it's not a case, actually. It's not in any collection that I know of. Maybe I'll talk about it on Saturday. Do you have any questions?

[70:38]

Yes. Why does the whole sect took on Chaoshan's name when he's not even in the book of translation? He's not in the lineage anymore. Yeah. Why? Well, it's a good question. A teacher often has more than one student who is transmitted. And sometimes a teacher will have a very popular student, and everyone will think, oh, that's the one. And then he has another student who is not so popular. But this is actually the one that carries on the line. And so the name was given after Tozan and Sozan had died.

[71:48]

So the students of the school looking at it afterwards said, because the five ranks is very popular after Tozan. And Cao Shan and Deng Shan both were involved. Cao Shan developed Deng Shan's five ranks more. And that's what people were interested in. That was more popular than Ungo's teaching. So people said, yeah, this is the Cao Deng sect, or school. But actually, in Ungo, his line carried on the tradition. And also, why after the sixth patriarch, all these people have two names? Where did the second name come from?

[72:51]

Well, you know more about that than I do, because in China, people have all kinds of posthumous names. They keep popping up all the time. Dengshan has three or four, and it depends on, you know, the emperor gives them a name, and then he's given an honorary name for a certain And also, they're named after the mountains. So there's a mountain name, and a given name, and a mountainary name. So it's really hard to keep up with none of the Japanese names and the Chinese names. So you have to be a little bit scholarly to kind of get all these names.

[73:56]

So I just do the best I can. Japanese names for the Chinese. And now the Chinese names are becoming more popular as they're with the pinyin system. And so now you have to learn all the Chinese names in Chinese as well as Japanese. And so sometimes it's hard to know, you know, which ones to use. Well, they're not. If you think about it, some are a little different, but it's mostly phonetic. Phonetic difference.

[74:58]

So it's the Japanese trying to pronounce the Chinese, is that... Yeah. The Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese. The transliteration. Yeah, and if you know, you know, Shaan is Zaan, the sun is mountains, and Doug is Tovu, Interprets.

[76:16]

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