First of all, I want to mention that when you leave your shoes on the porch, it's a good idea to not leave your keys or other things like that in them, because they can easily get mixed up with somebody else's pockets. So if you find something that you thought was yours, It would be good to let us know about that. I would just take your keys and your wallets and your valuables with you. Today we have a weekend sitting, today and tomorrow, and then tomorrow afternoon we have lay ordination. which is sometimes called jukai.

[01:09]

Jukai means taking the precepts. The kai is the precepts, Buddhist precepts. But we also call it tokudo. And tokudo means ordination. And we have two kinds of ordination, two levels of ordination. One is lay ordination, which is called zaikei tokudo. And we have priest ordination, which is called shukei tokudo. So I want to talk a little bit about the difference between lay ordination and priest ordination. Lay ordination or zaikei tokudo means to have ordination and stay at home.

[02:25]

As a layperson or householder. And strictly speaking, shukke or priest ordination means leaving home. But in our tradition, they're not always so indistinguishable. And priest ordination is not as common as lay ordination. And priest ordination is a greater commitment. If someone wants to be a priest and they have to think that over very carefully and Usually, I wouldn't ordain someone as a priest who had been practicing less than five years and would be ready to make a commitment to practice.

[03:44]

Although, it's not necessarily, it doesn't always happen that way. My feeling about a priest is someone who doesn't have anything else to do. Someone who doesn't have anything else further to accomplish in their life. A person who has finished taking classes in order to find out what their life is about. is not looking for another career or something like that. But this is the end of the road for a priest. And this is all they really want to do. And it's the main thing in their life.

[04:48]

So not everyone can do that or wants to do that. And so we have the lay ordination, which acknowledges a person's commitment to practice and allows a person to practice in the world. And with that acknowledgement, of practice, acknowledgement from the side of practice. So priest and layperson takes the same precepts, 16 precepts. It's pretty hard to compare our ordinations and especially our priesthood with that of Japan, because their practices are different, very different.

[06:02]

And sometimes people say, well, what is a priest? What does it mean to be a priest? And it's important to realize that nobody knows what is a priest. People are always trying to define what is a priest. But actually, if you ask, what is a priest? I have to say, I don't know. So in this I don't know, I don't know means each moment I have to find out. I have to investigate what is a priest or each moment I have to ask myself that question. What is a priest? So for a layperson,

[07:20]

It means being acknowledged and confirmed in your practice while you're at home. And to practice in the world, Suzuki Roshi would say, like a white bird in the snow. To just blend in with people. to practice as a layperson is to just blend in with people, to practice your practice in the world, not standing out in some way, but wherever you are, you influence your situation and harmonize your situation. And you're always helping people in some way.

[08:29]

Where a priest is more visible. A priest puts on robes and becomes a kind of visible symbol of practice. Where a layperson is more invisible. are non-visible symbol of practice. So a priest kind of stands out as an example. So it's not a very easy thing to do, to have space all the way around you, and then people are looking. Is he doing OK? Is she doing all right? So if you make a little mistake, you know, people go, oh, not so good. So a priest is like putting themselves out there and say, OK, excuse me, tell me what's wrong with what I'm doing.

[09:46]

This is a priest practice. Priest practice is not to be raised up on a pedestal, but to actually allow yourself to be criticized. Putting yourself in a position to be criticized, not in a critical way, but to be shaped through everyone's observation. So it's not so easy. And then when we have too much criticism, we cry a little bit. Criticizing me so much, so very hard. And you always have a problem. A priest always has a big problem. And people expect a lot of you as a priest. But the practice of a priest is to help lay people practice, or help everyone to practice.

[10:56]

to set an example, and to not so much think of your own welfare, but to be concerned about the welfare of everyone else who's practicing. That's the priest's practice. Sometimes people think that priests are perfect, or they must have some special knowledge to be a priest. But actually, a priest has got many good qualities, and also many undeveloped qualities as well.

[12:02]

A priest usually has some developed qualities, but also some undeveloped qualities. And so we should realize that when we relate to a priest. So if a priest becomes too aloof, maybe they're hiding something. So anyway, but a priest should be helpful. people will like to practice. So a priest sets an example and if people see that there's someone who is really sincere and is benefiting from the practice and enjoys their life, then people will be influenced to investigate the practice. But laypeople, same thing.

[13:05]

you know, lay practitioner, same thing. But it's not as visible. So leaving home in our tradition doesn't necessarily mean that you leave home. But it means that you Give up your security. You're not so interested in your security. And you put yourself in the hands of Buddha nature to take care of you. And I think that's probably the biggest help that we can give people. is that kind of freedom.

[14:11]

Freedom to depend on nothing. Because most of the problems in our world come from our insecurity. I would say most of the problems in our world come from insecurity. People wanting more than they need. and needing power in order to feel secure, needing domination in order to feel secure, needing to separate from others in order to feel secure, needing to get rid of others in order to feel secure, So when we have lay ordination, usually we wait a while for a practitioner to have lay ordination.

[15:27]

I like to wait three years. I like to have a person practicing for three years before they have lay ordination. The reason why is because, one reason why, is because when you come to practice, we usually do that with some enthusiasm. And then we get to a point where we question what we're doing. And then we go through a kind of process with that questioning and decide, yes, I'll continue or no, I won't continue. So I like to wait for a person to get through that period of doubt before having a lay ordination. So that they feel, yes, I want to continue. And that takes some time. So we let everyone practice a pretty long time in order to go through the process of doubt.

[16:35]

get to the point of doubt and go through the process of doubt and then make some decision whether or not they want to continue. And then we confirm a person's practice with lay ordination. So lay ordination isn't something that you do right away, but it's something that confirms where you actually are. And especially for a priest, ordination is I would ordain a person who was already practicing as a priest. But I don't always wait that long for a layperson. for lay ordination. If a person is really practicing very sincerely and steadily and sometimes it's encouraging to give lay ordination to that person and it helps them in the early stage of their practice.

[17:52]

So there's no real rule, there's just some kind of feeling about it. In our tradition, we sew our own robes. And we have, of course, this outer robe for a priest is called okesa. And Buddha first sewed his own robe. apparently from material gathered from a rag pile. And so he took the rags and cut them up in little pieces and washed them and dyed them. And sewed them in a pattern of rice fields and pathways.

[18:57]

So it's like being covered with the world. Nowadays, and not just nowadays, but in Buddha's time too, we cut up pieces of cloth. We take a whole piece of cloth and cut it up and then sew it back together very carefully. Each stitch is done very carefully. And sometimes we say, well, you know, it's funny to take a whole piece of cloth and cut it up in little pieces and then sew it back together again. But actually, when you think about it, that's what we do with everything. If you want a table, you take one big tree and cut it up into little pieces and then put it back together again. in the shape you want it to be.

[20:00]

And if you want a suit of clothes, you take one big piece of cloth and cut it up into little pieces of cloth and make it into your suit. And this is actually an example of how this world is constructed. It's really all one big piece. But we take it and cut it up into little pieces and make it into what we want to use it for. So whether you get the material from a rag pile or from Britex, all the same, really. Sometimes people complain because they want to be old-fashioned. purist, we should get our clothes from a rag pile. That's okay.

[21:02]

And actually in Buddhist time, there were people who, students who were ascetics. They'd come from an ascetic tradition. And so he outlined 10 or 12 things that the ascetics could do if they wanted to. One was like never sleeping under the same tree twice, always sleeping outdoors, you know, things like that. And one of their ascetic rules was to always get their ropes from a rag pile. So, lay ordination and priest ordination is not just for ourselves, but helps us to encourage each other.

[22:05]

When we sew the robe, it's an acknowledgement to us, but it's also, we sew our robe for the sake of helping all beings. You know, Avalokiteśvara's practice is to appear in various circumstances incognito. And there are many stories, many legendary stories of Avalokiteśvara appearing as sometimes as a thief or a prostitute or as a monarch or a businessman or something, you know, in any circumstance, to help people.

[23:14]

And this kind of symbolic, I think, of practice, especially of lay practice, Every situation is an opportunity to practice. But you don't let people know that this is what you're doing. This is your secret practice. But you have to see every situation as an opportunity for practice. What is practice in this situation? What is practice in this situation? Then you are always appearing as Avalokiteśvara.

[24:19]

So late practice is very important. It's not secondary practice. We say priest practice and lay practice, they're just two sides, two aspects of ordination. One is visible, and the other not so visible. You don't have to change your life to have lay practice. So we have many, many

[25:29]

really good examples of lay practitioners. Maybe you have some questions? You said that you don't tell people that that's what you do. Why? Well, you wouldn't say, I am now helping you. I am here to help you. You wouldn't say something like that, right? No. Just do it. Hopefully. Do you think that being a priest has to do with karma or intention? Intention? Karma or intention. Or intention. I think it's... Intention is the main thing.

[26:42]

You have this intention, right, or vow. You have an intention and then you make a vow. But our so-called karma, course brings us to this point. Sometimes in the sutras or stories, Buddha will say, all your past lives have brought you to this point. Or an old teacher will say, all of your past lives have brought you to this point. All of the activity you've done in your life has brought you to this point. But then your intention is what carries you to it, or your intention can... you can say yes or no. So it's not necessarily inevitable that this will happen to somebody, but it's obvious that when we talk about past lives, you know, like you can say, five minutes ago was my past life.

[27:59]

In that sense, all of our past has brought us to this point. And for someone who becomes a priest, all of your past life has brought that person to this point. And you have a choice whether or not to do that or not. So sure, your karma has brought you there. Well, if it's your karma to do that, you know, it's brought you to that point, and then you say no, isn't there a repercussion? Well, there are repercussions for everything. Or is that just more karma? Well, karma is another word for repercussions. So, yeah, you may have missed an opportunity that won't come again for a long time. But on the other hand, you may not be ready.

[29:04]

The person may not be ready. So it's hard to say. Karma is the most difficult thing to understand, how it works. It's one of the strengths to mine. I know a man who's Well, he's not, he's somewhat young, he's my age. He's middle-aged. You were there, it's the first time I've ever been in there. And, you know, he heads up a big Zen center, and the easiest thing in the world he's said to me to do with his life would be to sit down and be a hermit. A hermit? A hermit. And just to sit, and to live alone. And so here he is, I call it, on call, 24 hours a day, with 250 dependents.

[30:09]

Well, that's not a hermit. Exactly. I mean, he's taken on this, you know, beyond priesthood, and yet what's natural to him, he says, And he says doing what he's doing now is what sands the edges off of him. Yeah, that's right. The easiest thing is, it would be very easy for me to just go live by myself. I can just spend my whole time, you know, doing something by myself. But that's not what I do. I have two questions.

[31:10]

Why would someone want to be a priest? Once you get there, how do you keep, who can tell you off? Who can call you on your stuff? Because you're the boss. Do other priests help each other? It's not true that you're the boss. You're the boss too. I mean, if a priest is the boss, that means that you too are the boss. But the priest is not some special boss. We have this idea that the priest is the boss. That's not true. People set themselves up as bosses, right? But a priest is not the boss. Your first part of your question was, why would somebody want to do that? Well, I wanted to do it because... Actually, I was asked.

[32:16]

I didn't ask to be a priest. I didn't ask to be bored. But, you know, I admired my teacher. And so, you know, I felt, I really felt that this, that's what I wanted to do, because I admired him. So my whole training has been to follow what he did, what his teaching, right? So that's my, what keeps me in line. So, And the other side of your question is that anybody should be able to say, what are you doing? To the priest.

[33:18]

But we don't. We want someone to be boss. We want someone to be daddy. So we set up people to be that. And we're not honest with them. So I think that some of us are. But it's like any kind of teacher that you have, right? You go someplace and you go to study mathematics, right? So you have your math teacher, and you say, yes, teacher, no, teacher. And the teacher teaches you something, and you ask questions. And if you see that he's not doing something right, you say, is that right? You wouldn't just swallow everything, would you? I mean, if you see that the answers aren't coming out right or something, you say something. So it's the same thing, in a sense. You should always challenge your teacher.

[34:24]

Otherwise, there may be something that you're wanting or needing, but you're not allowing yourself to have it. So a good teacher likes to have a challenge from the students. Oh, really? Next time you can give us a lecture. I have proof. If the teacher is not challenged and sets himself up, then that becomes something else. Then we have Waco.

[35:27]

Waco, Texas. I keep looking for a teacher. You are one of my teachers. And in the past, every teacher I've had is very helpful up to a certain point. And at a certain point, I realized our selves to leave the teacher and go my own way. And when I'm meditating, things get clear, which is why I'm here, but then I'm out in the world and people confuse me. I lose my path. I lose my center.

[36:33]

I'm going through a lot of torment right now because my father has visited It's not the words, it's not the sentences, it's the energies underneath that are so difficult to deal with. And I don't know how I'm here trying to make sense of it all. And the energy underneath the very polite words and everything being proper, the energies are so chaotic. And what we practice is not being thrown off by anything. And in the midst of the most difficult things, to not be pushed over. That's our practice. And it doesn't depend on a teacher, or a teaching, or anything.

[37:38]

It's just, you are your teacher. If you don't realize that you are your teacher, and that if you have a teacher, your teacher should be helping you to understand how to be self-reliant. So, when we're not self-reliant, then we keep looking around Well, maybe this one will teach me something, or maybe that one will give me something. Nobody can give you anything. We keep looking and looking and looking. Nobody can give us anything. That's why practice is so important. Practice is what gives you self-reliance. It just keeps pointing your nose in that direction.

[38:44]

That's what the teacher's for. To keep pointing your nose in that direction. If that's not the direction a person wants, then go in another direction. It's fine. But it's very simple, actually. But the simplest thing, of course, is not so easy. But we're looking for something more complex, something that we can We're coming in our head. But it's all right here. What sort of differentiates a Zen priest and a Zen teacher? Well, a priest isn't necessarily a teacher. A priest is a priest. And a priest may have some function. Sometimes a lay person will be a teacher.

[39:46]

Sometimes a priest will be a teacher. And sometimes all of us are teachers. But just because a person has ordination as a priest does not mean they're a teacher. But we do teach certain things. And someone can be a priest and they can teach classes and so forth. But it's not the same as being a teacher, a Zen teacher. But hopefully the priests will be teachers, ideally. but just because someone has ordination does not automatically make that person a teacher.

[40:56]

After a person has ordination, they should train at least for five years with their teacher, or longer. And also, visit other teachers. So, a person who has ordination we would hope would want to be a teacher and be training as a teacher. But there is no guarantee that because you have ordination that you will be a teacher. Because it has nothing to do with what you learn. See, if you go to college, you learn something and then you get a certificate and then you can teach. But that's not the way it is in Zen. Because it has nothing to do with what you learn. I'm not saying it has nothing to do with what you learn, but their learning is not the main thing. It's what you bring forth, and what you understand about yourself, and what you actually have faith in.

[42:05]

So, when a person has developed in a certain way, then they have some authority. And when the person has personal authority, then they can be a teacher. Personal authority and self-confidence. And the ability to meet any situation. You said, I heard you say earlier that there was a difference between the priesthood here and the priesthood in Japan. Could you talk a little bit more about that? Well, the whole Japanese situation is different. You know, in Japan, the priesthood has a kind of history of development.

[43:22]

And the priesthood is on this hand, and lay people are over here. So in America, we're all together. The way our teachers developed our practice was to put lay people... I mean, you don't find lay people practicing Zazen like we do here in Japan. I mean, it's not the same at all. As a matter of fact, you don't even find priests sitting on Zen. The way lay people sit here in Japan, for the most part. So, and sometimes people... There are places in Japan where you can go and practice, which are good places, but not very many. So, this is probably the best place for people to practice. Right where we are. Sometimes people say, well, I'm going to go to Japan, you know, and get the real thing. They go to Japan, they say, well, you should go to America.

[44:28]

You know, you don't find this openness and men and women practicing together, priests and lay people practicing together. It's all, you know, it's just, it's not comparable. That's why it's very difficult for us to have a relationship with Japan. Because, you know, we're so different. I can't tell you. Very different. Just our customs, and we're so loose, you know, in so many ways. I mean, men and women practicing together, and giving women leadership, I mean, authority and leadership in a place where men are practicing. And that's just, you know, we're just miles apart.

[45:32]

So, and having thought about this and analyzed it and interacted with priests from Japan and the hierarchy and so on. It's just become more and more obvious that it's like this is the ship that's left ashore. We have to kind of wave goodbye. But it's great to have that relationship. And there are priests, you know, who are... I think in the future our relationships will not be with the official dome of Japan, but with individual priests, you know, who are interested in practice the way we are. And that's where our connections will be. And I think that our practice will help

[46:40]

help modify their practice because they're looking for a way to enter the modern world, actually. They haven't entered the 20th century yet, exactly, in many ways, and we're not burdened with their history. there will be interaction and also beneficial interaction. But it will take time, and it will be with individuals, not with the comfortable status quo. Maybe that's just the right note.

[47:44]

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