I'm reminded of, I think we're all reminded of Tozan's answer to the monk who asked, how do we escape from hot, heat, and cold? And Tozan said, well, when it's hot, let the heat kill you. When it's cold, let the cold kill you. But I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to bore you with that one. Actually, if you wash your face and head with cold water, It's very helpful.

[01:02]

When you get a chance, just wash your face. And if you have a head, or if you have hair, you can soak it. It'll retain the water. Keep your head cool. You get very sleepy when it gets hot like this. and start dreaming strange dreams. Have you noticed? No stranger than usual. Well, mine are a little stranger than usual. But today, yesterday, I spoke about Dao Wu, and Lung Tan, and Da Shan, and Lung Tan's mother, Lung Tan's mother, the old woman.

[02:20]

But, and so today I want to continue talking about the lineage of Sekito Kisen. Darshan became a very well-known and successful teacher after his studying with Lungtang. He had two very good disciples. One was Shui Feng, and the other was Yen Tu. And their Japanese names, in Japanese they're called Seppo and Ganto. And I'm going to use their Japanese names because it's a lot easier to say Seppo and Ganto.

[03:30]

one word apiece. And people are usually more familiar with Sepo and Ganto than Shui Feng and Yen Tu. Although if you read the Blue Cliff Record, the complete translation, all the Chinese names are what are used. So we should be familiar with both Chinese names and Japanese names for these ancestors. So Seppo and Ganto were direct disciples of Dasan. Tokusan.

[04:35]

But they were very different personalities. Seppo was a little older than Ganto, and Seppo was not so quick. Even though he was a very good student, it took him a longer time to realize his understanding than for Ganto who was very quick and very bright and really was always on a level with his teachers. But these two supported each other and studied together and went to visit not visit exactly, but study with the best teachers of their time.

[05:45]

So they went several times to study with Tozan Ryokai. And when they traveled, they had to travel long distances on foot. In China, in the Tang Dynasty, they didn't have trains or automobiles, and people traveled mostly on foot. And it was very dangerous because there were always bandits and difficult passages. And sometimes they would have to travel thousands of miles So it took them a long time to get from one place to another. And it took a lot of determination for them to go someplace. And so it was rather amazing that they could actually travel so much.

[06:54]

Three times they visited, they studied with Tozan. that was considered rather extraordinary considering where they lived, with Dashan. Sepo was more had to work a little harder for his understanding. And he is considered very deep. His understanding is considered very deep. And Ganto's understanding, although equally astute, he didn't attract so many students.

[08:03]

And Seppo had maybe 1,500 students, and Ganto had very few, and none of whom are well-known, whereas Seppo was the teacher of Uman, Yunmen, who was maybe one of the most famous Zen teachers of the time. There are actually two lines of Zen which descend from seppo. But Ganto actually was instrumental in seppo's realization. Seppo and Ganto one day were traveling to see maybe Tozan, I don't know.

[09:10]

And they were caught in the mountains in a snowstorm. And they had to hole up for three or four days. And they couldn't go outside. And Seppo sat Zazen. And Ganto was just kind of laying back, taking it easy. And he got a little bit disgusted with Seppo. He said, what are you doing sitting straight like that all the time? Why don't you relax? Why don't you lie down? Take it easy. And Seppo said, well, I know it's easy for you to do that, but I still don't feel easy about my understanding.

[10:16]

I can't really relax. I just have to keep pushing. And he said to Ganto, why don't you help me out? And Ganta said, oh, OK. Tell me about the things that you understand. Tell me what you got from the various teachers that you studied with. And so Seppo started relating the various things that he'd heard from his teachers. And suddenly, Gonto said, look, he said, all of this is not stuff that you have brought out from yourself. This is all stuff that you, all stuff from somebody else. He said, you can't use somebody else's treasure.

[11:26]

Where is your own? And at this, Seppo had a big realization. And naturally, he danced and jumped for joy, cried, and was very appreciative to Ganto for giving him that something that, not that Ganto gave him anything, but kind of pushed him over. Of course, Tsepo was ready to have this understanding. It didn't take much, really. This is another instance of the hen and the chicken pecking at the shell. Tsepo was tapping Gondolin.

[12:30]

So there are many stories about Seppo and Ganto. And a lot of the koans are in the Blue Cliff Record and Muma and Khan are about Seppo and Ganto. And one which you all know about and which I've talked about many times is the story of Seppo and Ganto after they had settled. During the their time there were persecutions. You know, the Buddhists, the Taoists, and the Confucianists were all vying for dominance with the court in China. These were the three major spiritual institutions in China. And sometimes there'd be a lot of intrigue at the court that Taoists would whisper in the Emperor's ear about the Buddhists or the Confucianists would whisper in the Emperor's ear about the Taoists and the Buddhists and so forth.

[14:00]

And they would lose favor with the court if they were influential. So there were many persecutions in those times And in one great persecution, there was an emperor whose name was Wu, but not the emperor Wu of the Yang, who destroyed thousands of Buddhist monasteries and returned all the people to lay life, all the monks and nuns. And everyone had to flee. and uh... this was started the downward deterioration of buddhism in china actually started at that time and uh... the uh... a lot of the buddhist institutions were ruined because uh... they depended on the support of the government and uh... and on their own institutional

[15:07]

way of doing things, whereas the Zen monks didn't depend so much on the government and were very free of institutional necessity. And they fled to the mountains and set themselves up in the mountains and actually thrived. So Zen became later the dominant sect of Buddhism in China. And So a lot of the history of Zen takes place in the mountains during those persecutions. And Seppo and Ganto fled, and Seppo set up a hermitage, and Ganto became a boatman, ferrying people back and forth across the river. This is also very symbolic. Zen monks are often called boatmen, Zen teachers, ferrying people across.

[16:18]

So I don't know whether this is just a metaphor or that really happened, but I think it probably was so. A lot of famous Zen boatmen. And so Setpo lived in his hermitage and later Ganto lived in his place. Seppo lived at the base of the mountain, and Gonto lived on the other side of the mountain. But it's a big mountain. So, and monks used to go back and forth between them. So one day, two monks arrived at Seppo's place, at his hermitage. And Seppo walked out the door to the gate. And he looked at the two monks, and he said, what is it? Or he said, what is it? And the monks looked at each other.

[17:24]

They looked back at Seppo, and they said, what is it? And Seppo hung his head, turned around, and went back into his house. And the monks looked at each other and left. Later, they went to visit Ganto for the summer practice period at Ganto's place. And they talked to Ganto about the story, about what had happened with Sempo. And Ganto said, well, did you meet Cepo? When you were at Cepo's place, did you meet Cepo?" And they said, well, yes, we did. And they told him what happened. He said, did you meet Cepo? And his question was, did you meet the real Cepo?

[18:29]

But they didn't understand that either. They said, well, yes, we had a talk with him. And he came out, and he said, what is it? And we said, what is it? And then he hung his head, turned around, and went back in his house. What did he mean by that? And Ganto said, oh, that poor sepo. He didn't know what to say. If I had only given him my parting word, he wouldn't have fallen into such confusion. And the monks looked at each other, didn't say anything, but they stayed for the summer practice period. And when the summer practice period was over, they went back to Ganto and they said, what did you mean by

[19:35]

you would have given, you wished you had given Seppo your last word. And Kanto said, why didn't you ask me that before when you were talking to me? And he said, well, we were too timid. We were too shy. That often happens, believe it or not. People are afraid to ask. He said, well, Sempo and I, we grew up together, and we traveled together, and we studied together, but we won't die together. If you want to know my last word, my last word is just, this is it. And Ganto's, Seppo's statement, indicative statement to the monks, what is it, is not exactly a question.

[21:11]

It's a question, but it's also a statement. He could have said, he could have said it in many different ways. He could have said, what is it? Or he could have said, what is it? Or he could have said, what is it? And the monks could have said, what is it? What is it? What is it? If you turn the question around, you'd say, it is what? It is what?

[22:12]

Or it is what? So Ganto says, my last word to Seppo is answering for the monks. This is it. This is it. Ganto said, we grew up together, traveled together, studied together, but we won't die together. Seppo will always be Seppo's. Seppo's way will always be Seppo's way. Ganto's way will always be Ganto's way. But Seppo's way is always, this is it. Ganto's way is always, this is it. What is it? What is it?

[23:16]

Suzuki Roshi used to say that in the same way. He just, what is it? When you're sometimes asking the question, you say, what is it? In such a way, just like Seppo, what is it? If you take the name away from everything, we can point to everything and say, it. We don't like to be anonymous, so we like to have our name. But you can point to anything and talk about it. So we can say the floor is an it, if we're talking about the floor, or the pillar, or the bench, or each one of us. We can point to it and say it. And it is a name for everything.

[24:23]

It is a name that applies to everything or anything. And yet, we pick out a name. There's the bell. It is the bell. It is the Mokugyo. It is Steve. Steve is it. The bell is it. In the introduction to this koan, Setcho says something like, if you fall into good and bad, yes and no, right and wrong, the absolute or the relative, you're already lost.

[25:28]

If you think about breath, is that the subject or the object? What is breath? What is this breath? You don't have to think about what is this breath. If we just let breath be breath, this is it. Is this it, or is it breath? If you say, this is breath, that's an idea about breath.

[26:58]

Breath becomes an object. But just to be bread is to be it. If you want to, someone said, if you want to see it, you have to be it. Is this zazen? What is it? Is this eating? What is it? So if someone asks you, what is it?

[28:07]

What will you say? Everything is it expressed, expressing. Everything is expressing it in its own way. You express it in your way and I express it in my way. What is it? Do you have a question?

[29:32]

Did they go back? Well, I don't know if they went back and told CEPO, but after this incident, Gonto was killed by bandits. And when he was being killed, he said, when I'm killed, when I die, I'm going to let out a great shout. And so, as the story goes, when Gonto was killed by a mob of bandits, he let out a great shout which was heard for miles and miles around. And this became a koan for Hakuin. Hakuin said, why did Ganta let out a big shout at that time? That was a big koan for him, which was very significant.

[30:56]

It took him years to get past that. Where is the end to why? Where is the beginning? Do you think you can find out? No. Why?

[31:59]

I'm curious a little about the history of the church. When the Buddhist temples were destroyed, and then then managed by the monks, it sounded like you were talking to them, wasn't it? It was, but there were different schools of Buddhism. Most of the schools of Buddhism were focused around a sutra, or the Tiantai school and the Avatamsaka school. and schools which used a sutra as their focal point. And those were well-established schools.

[33:04]

Zen, although it was established, didn't need the same kind of facility. were not so bureaucratic. Those other schools became more bureaucratic and had strong ties with the government. What period are you talking about here? Well, from the 7th, 8th, 9th centuries up to the 10th century. 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. The Tang Dynasty was considered the golden age of Chan. And most of the stories that come to us, significant stories, come to us from that time.

[34:10]

And when you study the Blue Cliff Record or the Mumban Khan or the woke up equanimity. All those stories are about that time. Does China have a history of killing its problem? Just like every other country, yes. We have many subtle ways. Well, this is a very young country. Yeah, give us time. We killed each other out once. Remember that? It was called the Civil War. Yeah. And we don't have so much history.

[35:27]

And nobody has ever attacked us here. We never had to go through that. So we're still rather arrogant. As far as the world scene goes, But Seppo and Ganto, Ganto's response to Seppo, this is it, is where is our response?

[36:34]

What is our response to what is it? What is it? Thank you.

[36:58]

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