My name is Ross. I'm a resident here. I've been practicing for about years. There's more to that story called Wayseeking Mind talk. But as Sojin said, the founder of our temple, when I asked you to be a Shusa, or head student, for a practice period, the first talk, is your way-seeking mind talk, you know, how you came to practice, your parents and family and school and career and all that sort of stuff. It's kind of like a free spot on a bingo card because subsequent talks are, as he says, something. So here comes something. We are here.

[01:13]

We have a reason. All of us, fundamentally, we're dissatisfied and we're trying to find out what is the source of that dissatisfaction and how am I going to deal with it? It has that question. Some are more obvious than others when we observe their behavior and engage with them. Others may be more subtle, may be more hidden. But ultimately, we have the same question. Who am I and how did I? We received the world through the five senses. eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body. In the study of Buddhism, there's other pieces of us that coordinate all that information and create a Ross.

[02:29]

Along with these skandhas, are feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness. And that comprises our whole being. So, at one point, all these parts of Ross cause discomfort. And I felt it as we all feel our discomfort. Some are more proactive about wanting to fix it and others to not deal with it. And there's no judgment. Either way, we do what we do. I had the good fortune to stumble into a Zen Center in New York in 1984 on January 11th. And that's what changed my life. And my life has slowed for that moment.

[03:37]

I had a career, wife, lovers, former lovers, former wives. But ultimately, I'm still myself. So, the thrust of my talk is the convergence of talk therapy and silent therapy. I don't know much about talk therapy. I have a lot of friends who are in therapy before, but with the life of a Dharma practice, I have some experiences that have helped me clarify my discomfort and make sense of my world that I share with you all. what I heard as a kid in 1984 had come true.

[04:43]

I didn't understand it then, and I mostly understand it now, but I'm continually learning. So if you take anything away from today's talk, It's my sincere wish that you stay on the cushion, on the chair, on the bench, whatever means by which you can be still and look inward, which is a revolutionary turning of one's life from being out there and blaming other people, other things, other circumstances. It ultimately comes back here. And one realization around that was when I was in a lot of discontent here at Berkeley Zen Center, and I would go in and complain to Mel or Abbott, his given name.

[05:57]

And he would say a few words, but he wouldn't try to explain things. He wouldn't pat me on the back or... say, yeah, so sorry, and all of that, I had to figure it out for myself. So while in our tradition we face the wall, facing Sojin, I was facing another wall, which is ultimately I have to see for myself what is going on here. He can't tell me, and I can't tell him what's going on with himself. So in Not Always So, Suzuki Roshi says, when you practice zazen, trying to improve yourself, you may want to know yourself in a more psychological way. Psychology will tell you about certain aspects of yourself, but it will not tell you exactly who you are. It is just one of many interpretations of your mind.

[07:02]

If you go to a psychologist or psychiatrist, You will endlessly have new information about yourself. As long as you are going, you may feel some relief. You may feel released from the burden you get. In San, we understand ourselves quite differently. In other words, seeing into the essence of who we are, not the particularities of who we are that we talk about and figure out how we are relating, what the Mishigas is, what the aspirations are. of the person, which is beyond words and letters. Tozan, the founder of the Chinese Soto Zen School said, don't try to see yourself objectively. In other words, don't try to seek for information about yourself. That is information. He says that the real you is quite different from any information you have.

[08:03]

The real you is not that kind of thing. I go my way, and wherever I go, I meet myself. And what that means, wherever I go I meet myself, is related to that expression, you're full yourself. When you're full of no self, then what fills you? Every single thing in your life. Every single thing is a mirror for you. So in the midst of my dire discontent, speaking with Soji Roshi, him not responding, but listening actively, ended of himself so he sees, I get to see him, and we're just there with my sadness, my upset, my disappointment, and all the rest of the stuff.

[09:05]

Or my love and aspirations and excitement. It goes both ways. It's not all dark and depressing. Though if we're happy, we tend not to seek out psychologists or Zen teachers. Anyway, it all comes around. So when you enter your mind, when you give up everything, and just practice Zazen with an open mind, then whatever you see, you meet yourself. beyond she or he or me. As long as you are cling to the idea of self and trying to improve your practice or discover something, trying to create and improve better self, then your practice has gone astray. I practiced on Zen for 10 years, but I didn't get anything. Zen is no good. Well, there's no rush to wake up.

[10:07]

Please don't rush to wake up. Please don't rush to wake up. They have time to wait. Because it just is happening. Ross is wiping his nose. When we put our shoes on the shoe rack, take your time to put them in a pair, nice and neat. It's not like a Japanese thing is in teaching it's an opportunity to slow down and just place the shoes there because those shoes are no different than you if you take care of your shoes you take care of yourself if you don't take care of yourself then you're likely to just kind of whatever whatever we treat people as whatever when discovering the essential nature of us in Dharma practice, we study and see the oneness of all things.

[11:19]

Of all things. And the study of the self in talk therapy is more of an analytical study of the two-ness, self and other, in a way that we objectify things for a particular way to understand why am I in this relationship and this mental state with another person. And that has a lot of value to it. But it's not Zen practice. It's therapy practice. It's very valuable. And many, many, many people do them concurrently. There are many Dharma teachers who are also therapists. In fact, I met one in the capacity of being a talk therapist. A friend of mine asked me recently, in a bit of frustration, why do we have an ego?

[12:24]

It's so painful. Well, that's a good question. Why do we have an ego? Well, ego gives us a sense of self, but with a caveat that it's not the true self. So it's a way of orienting ourselves to things. We all have an ego, and we feel that ego when we're around people. Big ego, small ego, mixed-up ego, compassion. Those are expressions of ourselves. My sense is that my friend who was complaining about how we have an ego is that it was getting in the way of her true self, her full accepting self. So in the Yogacara study of how our mind works, When there is an awakening and the wisdoms transform our consciousness, the ego becomes, the ego consciousness becomes the ego of equality.

[13:29]

So when Dogen came back from China, Dogen is the founder of our school, 1370. When he came back from China, someone said, what did you learn over there? He said, eyes horizontal, nose vertical. What the hell does that mean? Well, what that means is that there's a horizontality to life, which is all one thing, and a verticality to life, which is just this hierarchy. And if we stay on one side or the other, we're going to get screwed. So how do we balance the horizontal and vertical? Well, in each moment, there's this urgency, this point. And depending where you're at, you'll be able to see yourself clearly, or you won't be able to see yourself clearly. But that's the practice. moment, there's always the one and the many. Don't get stuck. Huzan Roshi was once asked, what is emptiness? He said potential.

[14:33]

For what? Well, what will be revealed in the next moment? But when we're coming from a place of emptiness, We're more apt to see fullness. So I've told this story before, but it's one of my favorite stories, which is I practiced here years ago who was, I'll say, not my favorite person. Maybe you have a not-so-favorite person that you practice with. So anyway, with regard to this person, we practiced together, and that was a thing that I struggled to hold. How can I approach this person who is just, I don't want to be around them so much for whatever reasons. There are different reasons. They weren't whatever. Now is not the time to list them out. And I know that they have that same, a different list. They list also for me. We connect.

[15:37]

Because we're all together. We all have our stuff. We get to share that. We keep it close, and then sometimes it comes out. So anyhow. So, all dharmas are marked with emptiness. So the whole world is empty, but we see the fullness of it and the relativeness of it. And the zendo is a really great place to experience fullness of the emptiness, moment by moment. Because we're sitting still, we're not doing anything. We are doing no thing at all, which is very contrary to the way our life is, which is we're doing everything all the time. sitting Sashin, stepping out the Zendom door, walking down the steps. There's my not-so-favorite person, squatting down, like plucking some weeds or something. And I wasn't thinking any of that when I crossed the threshold out of the Zendom to the garden, my ego.

[16:40]

was keeping me oriented, my self-consciousness. Okay, step here, step here. Boom, boom. Recognition. And my arm goes up. And I continue walking down the path, leaving my hand off the shoulder and out. And there was no thought at all during any of that. So, what that experience was for me was of what? Love. Not the love of, I want to hug you and kiss you. Not the love necessarily of, hey, let's go out for a year. It was this unconditional love. which we all have the potential to feel and express, but more often than not, we don't, because we're caught by the particularities of each person and the particularities of ourself.

[17:55]

So, Suzuki Roshi said, you should have enlightenment moments all the time. You don't necessarily have them all the time, or they aren't like earth-shaking, huge explosions that you read about in the books. It can be something as simple as walking down the path without any intention of doing anything. I have to say it. Buddha's hand is up and connects to this person, and there's no longer any separation. No longer any separation. This maintaining posture, awareness of breath, this body, wherever we go, we have the Zen-do. Everywhere we go, we have the Zen-do. All we have to do is tap into it. We can go on retreats, we can go to far away places to explore other Buddhist temples and all, but it's all right here.

[19:00]

As David said, you don't have to go off to dusty lands to find this access. to the fundamental, the essence of Ross. Shikhan Taza is our main practice here. Shikhan Taza is generally translated as just sitting. It's easy to become attached to sitting, but Shikhan can be used in many different instances. Like Shikhan washing your hands. Like Shikhan drinking a glass of water. Like Shikhan wiping your butt. Just this. Whatever is happening, it's just this. But what happens? We get bored and we want just that. And we can see our body moving, looking for other things. It's just this in front of us.

[20:01]

And as we practice just this in front of us, we actually do see other things. There is a physical, sort of peripheral vision that widens. There's a quiet in the hearing that you start picking up. And as Suzuki Roshi said back in the 60s, when there was a lot of individuality, well, maybe no more individuality expression than there is now, but there's a particular individuality of freedom and love, free love and all that. Everybody's going to do different things. I can't see your individuality when everybody's doing their own thing. It's counterintuitive. When you sit still and maintain the posture and not look around and just be nobody, then I can see your particularities in your ego and yourself. Well, that didn't make any sense. But it does make sense. It does make sense.

[21:03]

Because when we sit sashim, when we sit seven days sashim, coming up shortly, that is into near you, we will feel the particularities of people, no doubt, see them, and we will love them, and maybe not so love them, but they're there for us to see ourselves respond to whatever is in front of us. Something I think a lot about is the exchange between Yanyan and Dengshan. Dengshan is the founder of the Sokdo school, and Yanyan was his teacher. And when Dengshan was going to leave his teacher, this is like 800 or so AD in China, when Dengshan was going to leave his teacher,

[22:09]

Yang Yan said, when you take your leave, it will be hard for us to meet again. And Dung San said, it will be hard for us not to meet. And he didn't use again. And the comment on that is that again means another time. Like for now, then again, I'll see you again, see you later. But in fact, all we have is now. kind of left his teacher with a turning word by taking a turning word away, leaving out again, and that's just now. And how that works for me and helps me is that all the people that have come into my life and encouraged and supported me, and all the people that have come into my life who have discouraged me and made me feel not so great are still with me. and I meet them moment by moment.

[23:11]

Not all of them are on my altar. It's a picture of Buddha, some cards from people that I've appreciated knowing for a long time. These are photographs of my parents, and these are photographs of Bernie Glassman and Sochi Roshi, my teachers. So every day I offer incense and bow to them, and I meet them with a vision. The pictures are helpful for me. So I would like to talk about talk therapy. ...about it though, but I can tell you what my experience was. I had a... I had a realization in the bathroom while relieving myself a couple days ago. You never know when you have a realization, so be prepared.

[24:14]

Realization, I came out of the bathroom. I opened up, not always so, and read the passage that I read to you all. And I wrote a letter to my former psychotherapist. This is what it says. Names have been removed to protect the, not so it isn't. I was in therapy twice in my life. Both were couples therapy. I received attorney word from you when we were in your office and you said it seems like so-and-so wants to go on an adventure. This helped me let go, having a kind, compassionate observer express what happened with that person, and for me, not to take it so personal.

[25:23]

So it's helpful to have a friend or a psychotherapist, not in silence, but in talking, analyze what's going on with these two people? What is suffering going on? And what is their relationship and what does each person want to do? Are they coming together? And so you would say, are practices coming together? Or is it being pushed apart by a desire of one or the other? Well, so it's no longer about me. And so my ego was not so... It was like, oh, they want to go on an adventure. Now, admittedly, I can talk about it with a little bit more even-handedness than when it took place. I wasn't so comfortable without me, but, you know, it is what it is, as the people say. And in that room,

[26:31]

I saw my part in that adventure that was about to take off. It felt less about me as I then understood that juncture in my life. In the other therapy, my perception of my friend being strong, while I was just a nice guy, neither particularly strong or weak, were switched in the therapist view after hearing our stories. So-and-so actually perceived me as strong and realized, and I realized that they were actually more weak than my perception. So our perceptions aren't reliable. We have perceptions. We need to get them checked out, and we can check them out with the person in front of us, or the watch in front of us, are you still working?

[27:35]

No? Okay. You have to check it out. And a therapist can be helpful in helping one to check it out because we can get caught and mixed up in our own safety by ourselves. So we'll go to friends who will like pat us in the back, oh, you're a good person, and they weren't worth all that trouble that you were having trying to get over the relationship. Whereas a true friend will tell you the strength. Because they aren't in it for the money. They aren't in it for the position. They're in it because of you and the relationship. So, we get to practice being alone. Break up in a relationship. But are we really alone? We're actually practicing all together. But there is a shift. There was a shift indeed. So, Suzuki Roshi's words, I did feel relief and release from the burden of information about myself, which has been a helpful reference point ever since.

[28:42]

Sincerely, yours, Ross-Plan. So, Soja Roshi once described our practice as Zen therapy in the Dharma stool practice having three legs. The stool's three legs are zazen, Study by oneself and study with the teacher. And depending on our particular inclinations and aptitudes, we'll be like all over the zazen thing, but not so much. We'll be all over the study and not really sit so much. We'll be all over like meeting with the teacher and talking, but not really doing so much study. So how do we balance all three of those legs? Well, that's a good question. I didn't study for a long time, and I observed somebody studying every day right across the apartment from me.

[29:47]

And I wasn't thinking about, what is she doing? I was just busy reading the newspaper. from a book called The Nine-Handed Dragon River, which was Peter Mathis' book about he and Bernie's trip to Japan and visiting the temples of Minizumi Roshi lineage that they came from. And I remember reading that book. It was on my bookshelf, so I went over and I said, oh my God, this book is great. It's a travel journal to Japan to all the things I like. And it's my teacher and my friend who actually, in just a nonchalant way, you don't have to stay here when I was a ZCNY. That got me thinking, oh, right, I don't. So Peter Matheson, rest in peace, bless your soul. Thank you for putting me to the way. So after that reading Nyahed Drag River, rereading it, I just started pulling books off the shelves.

[30:53]

and reading and studying. I didn't feel bad about the time so-called wasted, because everything appears in its right time. Everything is in time. And now is the time to pick up books again and study. So even though Zen practice focus is important to try to maintain a balance on the three stools, the three E. legs of the one stool. And doing that with friends, joining a study group, or studying with a teacher, is very helpful, both for the word that hopefully will mirror what your experiences are on the cushion, or the wheelchair, or in bed, wherever you happen to be. But ultimately, you have to figure it out for yourself, by yourself.

[31:54]

teachers and the and the cushions and all that are a way to kind of put it all together. And we don't push people and force them to do anything so you're on your own to have to find your way, just like as I did, dropping off a study for many, many years and coming back to it. However, zazen is highly recommended because if you do it daily for however long a time, five minutes or five hours, you're doing it in all states of mind that are coursing through your body. You're not doing it because you feel good and I'm ready to sit on it then, or I need to sit on it because I feel really shitty, no matter what. And if you do it no matter what, when the alarm rings or when the person you share the home with says, hey, get up already, whatever that is, you're doing it no matter what. So with the circumstances coming in your life that are a little challenging, You have more the experience of our mind when it's like this or it's like this.

[33:02]

It's, oh, I recognize this feeling of unsettledness. What did I do when I was sitting zazen? Oh yeah, right. Come back. Come back. Just this. Because when we come back, it's just this sitting zazen and so-called emptying out. We're ready to receive what's in front of us. And this has come in really handy for me when I'm in front of someone who I feel a little uncomfortable about, either with what they've written, or just the vibe of what they feel like. Because that's the first place that we go, right? The world of difference. The world of difference is the first place, or perception. And sometimes we find out our perceptions are wrong. Yeah. I recognize that person rubbing his eyes over there, but there's more to him than that.

[34:04]

There's way more to him than that. My old Dharma brother from residency ages and ages ago. So, what I found, not unlike that faithful walk down the path and touching the Sangha member's shoulder across the neck and to the other side, is that if I sit upright, or if I'm standing upright in front of someone who's offering themselves to me in a way which is hard for me to receive, breathe, don't think about what you want to say, breathe, and stay in touch with them. And that relationship changes time and again. They're being leered back what they are expressing. And if they don't like what they see, they will change their behavior.

[35:06]

It really does happen. And it takes a lot of patience on the person receiving it, just like a parent receives their child's disability. It's an amazing thing. How do parents do that? I guess it's a wired thing. So I started in New York at ZCNY, in New York. And there were many people who were priests, but the practice by and large was where priests were practicing there. And I wanted to be a priest because that's where the heat was, that's where the action was. And I didn't become a priest there because there's a particular caveat that didn't fit my sensibilities. sold a rakesu, a black rakesu, for lay ordination. And I came out here with that rakesu, and I posted something on the website about where that rakesu wound up around my neck back in 87. And then I was practicing here, and BCC is a lay practice center with priests, but mostly in lay practice.

[36:15]

The New York thing was more monastic and priest-like. So with that, one day, after Zazen, I forget, must have been somebody talking, I don't know who, or an event, I was walking right down where Marlee and Nancy going out the door, and I feel this arm on my shoulder. Now this is before the event outside, that hadn't happened yet, but it's somebody else's arm on me. And I look up, and it's Ed Brown. and perhaps a long time Zen student from Zen Center. And he's smiling at me. And I had never met him. I recognized his face from our bread book. And he's got this thing where he kind of brings you in close. And he says, you don't look like a priest. And of course, I'm not a priest. But I realized what he was thinking is that because I had a black rock, I must be a priest.

[37:18]

And here, the Rakisu's are blue in the Suzuki Roshi lineage. Orioki sets here are white for lay students. In New York, they're brown for lay students. That's why I have an Orioki cloth covered. So anyway, I told them, no, I'm not a priest. But here we are. And that was essentially that. And we have until 11.15, I believe. So thank you for the warning. Occasionally, Berkeley's Ed Center gets calls from people in duress or family members who have a family member who's in duress. So we got a call. a priest to come to John Muir Hospital to be with someone who was in a pretty tough place.

[38:23]

And the priests here at BCC were not available for one reason or another, and somebody asked me, I said, I'll go out there and do that. So I went out to John Muir Hospital and wore my rakasu and brought a bell and chanted the Imejuku Kananugyo, or Shosan Myokichi Jantarani, I can't remember now, it was long ago, the person in the bed that didn't appear so conscious, and people around, family members around. And I came back here, and then some time later, the person had been in the bed, and family members came to BCC, Saturday program, you know, hanging out with tea and cookies after the talk. And they approached me, and kind of like Ed, but not with such a face. You know, you're not a priest. This person said, what are you?

[39:26]

And that's a really good question. Everybody should have, you know, look in the mirror, what are you? It was based on, you know, you're not wearing robes, and you're this guy, and I don't know if you remember to see me from the hospital days, but anyway, What are you? Really good question. And I don't remember. I'd probably say something like, I'm a lay practitioner here. Nice to meet you. You know, something like that. I'm glad you're... But, you know, deeper than that is the question is not for me. What am I? Who am I? In our culture, we're used to seeing people in robes as... that they have some credibility.

[40:31]

They have some authority that's been bestowed upon them from their study, whatever happens. Be it a imam or rabbi or priest in the Catholic Church. Or Presbyterian Catholic or Protestant. Thank you very much, Protestants. As well as judges in courthouses. So robes kind of connote a certain authority. And it's deceptive, but the Buddha's robe, the okisa, that the priests wrap around the robe, many panels and all that, Well, this is also Buddha's robe, but it's very small. It's very portable. And you can hold the whole thing up easily, whereas a priest's robe is much more involved. It's a full-body wrap, and not so easy to do that, to show it all to people.

[41:37]

We're wearing robes, and we have been given the encouraging words of our dating teachers to please support the practice. and do your best, which is what we try to do. As far as maintaining equal or relatively equal support on each leg of that stool, we, the senior students at Berkeley Zen Center, encourage you all to meet with one of the teachers. Regardless of what kind of robe they're wearing, or what color robe they're wearing, or what their perceived gender is, because we're practicing together in this sacred place, and we have something to offer each other. The teacher has something to offer to the student. Likewise, the student has something to offer to a teacher.

[42:39]

And if you think, as I have from time to time, I don't really have a question to do. to go in to see Sochi Roshi or to see Hosang Roshi. But just meeting, just going there, face to face, something will come up. And it's a valuable opportunity because, as the saying goes in Dōgu's fascicle, only a Buddha and a Buddha. And Buddhas and sentient beings are not two. So we're all in this together. And we would say, sometimes the teacher is a student, the student is a teacher. But the teacher is still the teacher and the student is still the student. So we need to maintain an awareness of what our relationship is. And irregardless of who came here earlier or what we're wearing, we're just practicing together. We're just practicing together.

[43:45]

is, speaking for myself, is the most precious thing in my life. It includes everything. And in this practice of studying myself and appreciating all the things that informed me, my life changed and the quality of my life changed. And I can't believe this person so-called was that person long ago in a very different place. I won't say it's a success story because there's no succeeding in this. It's an endless practice, an endless investing. The beauty of it is when you think you got it made and you can sit back and smoke your cigar, you can't because the next moment, Something is going to happen to wake you up from your slumber.

[44:50]

Pick me up from my slumber. The waking up is an awakening, and it's an opportunity to wake up with a kind and happy awakening to just this. It's just my life. It's just this life. I'm calling it mine because I still have that greedy thing. It's my mind. in my life, in my friend. Well, I had to say something, and that was what I said today. And I hope that it was encouraging and helpful. And if you have any questions or comments about anything I said, or your real hand, that feels like a virtual hand here, but now there's one. One last thing before I call on you is that there's limited sign-up on the DocuSong practice discussion side of the port.

[45:56]

Practice leaders' contact information is below that, so you can meet with people outside of the context. In fact, most people I chat with are not here, but out and about, or here, but in a more informal way. But I promise you, even though it looks informal, is formal, important thing, so I'm not gonna be chit-chatting about this and that. Let's talk about our life and practice and why we're here together. Thank you. Hi, yeah. Two words placed together in a sentence. I'm hoping there was a comma between them. You said Japanese obsessive compulsive. Buddhism in America all came from somewhere else and has the aesthetic of those places it came from.

[47:06]

I think many of us chose this temple because the Japanese aesthetic is very us and helps us with our practice. Obsessive-compulsive is when someone gets too fussy in correcting others about practice, and that's not the Japanese aesthetic. I agree. So I just want to be sure that we're clear. Yeah, thank you. So on point, Hannah. My disposition and way has been like how people see me way before I stepped into Zen Center. I don't know why, but that thing, the fussy, anal retentive, whatever, that's the way I've been in my uptightness. And one of the things about having someone mirror that back to you is I got to see myself.

[48:12]

And that was... basically the thrust of those that I was in. And after that, even though my place looks like it is and my disposition is pretty much the same, it's a very different outlook of practice with that. So I appreciate the Japanese aesthetic, but my bearing is very different from those early days. And I probably should have used a different word But a lot of people don't come here because they feel it's too uptight and all that, because it's a different style, the way maybe most of us grew up. And I get that. My role as a reminder of all these forms and things is that I need to be aware of the forms as they were handed down to me, and at the same time, not cross every T or dot every I when I experience something that is so-called off.

[49:13]

Because, actually, it all is the bitter and the sweet. So, thank you. Does that bring me some... I appreciate very much what you said. I just want to be clear that the Japanese aesthetic is not an indicator of obsessive-compulsive neurosis. Good point. And it's a reminder that sometimes people will mimic that particularity of things, but it's not coming from their heart. It's coming from their head. And you can feel that. The attention and the aesthetics, it has to come from down low. And the only way it can come from down low is from sitting down low with your mudra in front of the low spot. If you don't sit, you don't get feedback from people who say, hey, you're being picky and fussy, loosen up, then it will be from the head.

[50:24]

In college, you know, all the things were squared. Also, my desk coming into the little room there. Brian Brown, God bless you, you are in freshman year of college, would come in and he would do this with his finger and knock things off. One thing off, just askew. Just to kind of, you know, don't be so uptight, Ross. Everything doesn't have to be so perfect. That's the way I was. And I didn't understand that until many, many years. And dear friend Hannah, thank you for bringing it up again. Thank you. Sarah Lu, Leo. Yes. Hi. Hi. I was wondering if on how much or whether the Zendo cats have influenced your practice. Yes.

[51:25]

Thank you, Sarah. Well, there were two cats. There was Rocky and Sweet Pea. Rocky came with my former girlfriend, and Sweet Pea came with my mom, a wandering monk. And they're both buried underneath the chairs outside my apartment. Sarah's referring, I think, mostly to Sweet Pea. So as patient as I can be, I can be a little impatient sometimes. And Sweet Pea, the things I've learned about Sweet Pea, and most of all, I'm... is that they have unconditional love. Yes, they want to be fed, like we do, but basically they don't remember things when you scold them or yell at them. They're just fresh each moment. And I remember a couple of times where I kind of raised my voice and was impatient with one or both cats. And they looked at me with those eyes just as a little child would look up at their parent and say, yeah, thank you for mirroring my impatience.

[52:26]

I am so sorry. I know you don't understand what I'm saying, or maybe you do understand what I'm saying, but I tried harder. And I was blessed with five and a half years of custodianship of that little cat who meant a lot to me. And karmically, you know, I didn't want to have kids nor pets to take care of. And I took care of the... at Kaiser Hospital. But the cats came into my life without my wanting them. But they came, it was a package deal with one, and the other came with his own package. So things have a way of finding us to help us with our sticking points. If we don't go into therapy, then it's a little gray puff. Well, thank you all for your attention and your practice, and I look forward to an ongoing conversation around these things that are close to all of our hearts.

[53:32]

Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. There are a lot of other places we can. Thank you very much.

[53:37]

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