Zen Center since 1976. She was at BCC in 1996, was Shuso in 2006, and received lay entrustment from Sojin Roshi in 2010. During her 47 years at BCC, she has held many practice positions, as you might imagine. At some point, right? including Sashin director, Tenzo, and librarian. She currently leads a Dharma group, study group, and has taught Dharma in prisons and libraries, which she intends to rekindle. She worked for many years at the San Francisco Public Library. She was program manager of the Jane C. Hormel LGBT Center and established a weekly period of zazen for patrons and staff. She lives with her wife, Nancy, and their cat, Bella, in Oakland. Please welcome Karen Sunheim.

[02:14]

Thank you, Ross. Thank you for the introduction and the invitation. And I'd like to welcome everyone today. I see that there are a lot of faces that I don't know. So if you're here for the first time, welcome. What I'd like to talk about today is seeing, how we see things, perceive things, understand things. And today is July 1st, and I've been thinking about how rich the month of June was. There was a lot that happened that brings me to this subject. We finished our practice period, and our shuso, suosher, spoke of a koan, the main gate and the kitchen pantry.

[03:29]

And one of the key phrases in that koan is, everybody has a light. So we all have a light. Do we see it in ourselves? Do we see it in others? The second June theme is LGBTQ pride. I managed a lot of archives at the library, so I interacted with a lot of people who go way back in the early days of gay pride, a lot of the founders. And it started out a bit as, because there was, you know, employment discrimination, all sorts of things happened. So it began, and I think the first Gay Pride March was in Philadelphia, where I grew up.

[04:33]

And I think it was in either, something like that. And then it came out here to San Francisco. It was a very small march in Golden Gate Park, not what it is today. But in addition to the protest, it was also a chance for people to be visible. And that is a really important thing. There were all sorts of contingents. Marching, I mean, I was with the library marching with a bookmobile, holding up signs that illustrated books. And we passed out fortune cookies with a fortune in the middle. It was queerest library ever. But as an archivist, which I wasn't technically, I was kind of

[05:35]

But it was documentation of people's lives and the diversity of them. I mean, the LGBT community is vast and includes every imaginable in color, culture, class, whatever it is. It's a bit painful to me this year because there has been such a backlash recently, particularly towards trans people, but towards all of us to list political events, because that's not what I'm here to do, but I'm sure you know about them. So that's an aspect of being seen. which is really important. And the third thing is at the Berkeley Sun Center, we completed our year-long program called Many Communities, One Sangha.

[06:47]

And about 33 of us participated, and it's very sangha-focused. It was led by Dr. Rhonda McGee, who's an attorney and an author, and she wrote a book called The Inner Work of Racial Justice, and it's a lot about mindfulness and our perceptions about race. And it's very Sangha-focused. So what she often referred to in her talks is We need to widen our lens when we see. When we see who we're with and who we're talking to and be aware of ideas that may cloud our perceptions and our vision.

[07:49]

And this is a really, this is a very old idea in Buddhism. Back in the Buddha's time, one of his earliest teachings, as many of you know, his first ever Dharma talk was the Four Noble Truths. Now I see some new people. Do people know what I'm talking about when I say the Four Noble Truths? Does any, would you like me to? You're okay. Okay, but it's the truth of suffering, because the Buddha once said that I teach one thing and one thing only, and that is the cause and the end of suffering. So the fourth noble truth is the Eightfold Path.

[08:55]

So you've heard of this, I'm sure, right mindfulness, right speech, Right, livelihood. They cover all aspects of our lives. Morality. What are they? Understanding. Anyway. There are eight of them, and the eighth one is called Right View. It's the first. Well, it's the first. Thank you. It depends on your point of view. Sorry. Actually, Hosan is the founder of a project called the Clear View Project. So, okay. Well, it's good for me to be reminded that it's the first because in a lot of ways, it's the way I enter practice. So, right view, just to list a few aspects of it.

[10:00]

It's a deep understanding of the Four Noble Truths. And also having the faith and confidence that we can transform our suffering. It's the ability to know wholesome from unwholesome. So what's a wholesome action? What's a wholesome thought? What's a wholesome desire? and what's unwholesome. So it's important to be able to nourish those things. And then to water, to nourish those seeds that are wholesome. And we practice mindfulness so that we can identify the seeds, wholesome and unwholesome. So all the aspects of an Eightfold Path really are

[11:01]

legs of one limb or limbs of one body. So here when we practice mindfulness, which is really what we're doing in Zazen, we have the opportunity to see what arises in us. What kind of thoughts are we having? What kind of feelings? Are they angry or happy or joyful? What kind of stories are we telling ourselves? One thing the Buddha said is, where there is perception, there is deception. So, Things come into our senses and we can perceive them in many different ways.

[12:12]

For example, we can be walking along and believe that there is a snake crossing the pathway. Maybe be frightened of that. Get a little closer and realize it's a rope. That's one example of false perception. And then there is the perception of things, as he used to say, things as they is. or things without the filter of our minds. Or, excuse me, what I mean to say is, without the rising of our ego self, full of desires and opinions,

[13:22]

Because in order to perceive, there has to be something to perceive, right? You look at a flower, for example, and one might think, I see a flower. But it's really your mind. I remember once asking Sojin Roshi What is mind? And he said, look at a plant. And that was the end of the conversation. It took me actually a few years to understand what he really meant. Seeing through my own perceptions So Buddhist teachers arose.

[14:38]

So there was a teacher, Nagarjuna, who taught either in the first or second century. And he is known as possibly the most important teacher since Shaka, who was probably five centuries earlier, five or six. And Nagarjuna went on to say that everything is without essence. So those of you who practice with us regularly and chant the Heart Sutra, know that this sutra is really that all things that we perceive and think are empty of inherent existence.

[15:46]

So he wrote a famous set of verses that's basically called The Middle Way Verses. And he has an argument. He takes on life and argues in each chapter that these things cannot possibly have inherent existence. For example, some of the early chapters of like sights and sounds, and others' emotions, feelings, movement. Then he goes on to negate even the Four Noble Truths, Buddha.

[16:57]

And then later on, a few centuries later, a teacher named Vasubandhu who was a, he was both like Nagarjuna, a practitioner and a scholar said that we are all, what we hear and what we see is all through the lens of our conditioning. After the MCOS program concluded, you know, I've thought a lot about what's going on with racism and homotransphobia and how misperceived it is.

[18:06]

people claiming their children are endangered by drag queens reading stories in libraries. You know, I was working in the library where I believe the first drag queen story hour happened. Now, I can't verify that, but there was an author you may have heard of, Michelle T., and in San Francisco, and she did a monthly program at the Harvey Milk branch, where I was the manager. So she started, I think, Drag Queen Story Hour, and it was really . I mean, the kids loved it, and then it spread all over the country. They actually talked about it in the New York Times and mentioned her name So I'm sorry if it isn't accurate, but children obviously are having a problem with drag queens.

[19:18]

You know, it's adults that have the problem. I mean, let's face it. I did want to say a few... things about perception because a few personal things. What time is it? Does anyone know? Okay. At Berkeley Public Library, which was long ago, this was the late eighties. We had one of those diversity programs, you know, for the whole staff. And at the time, the professional staff were white.

[20:19]

And a lot of the paraprofessional staff were not. A lot of African-Americans and other, you know, colors of skin. And so I was in this mixed group. And the leader of the day-long program, who I thought was very creative, had us sit together. So I was in a group of about eight people. And we were given the instruction, tell the group something about your cultural background. Tell them something you think they ought to know, or something you would like to know. And I come from a very kind of Jewish European community in Philadelphia, and that was pretty much who I knew when I grew up.

[21:31]

So I said something. You know, I wanted people to... Not all Jews were rich. There's a stereotype about that. And then this woman, an African-American woman who I knew, I saw her every day, although we never really talked very much, said, well, I want you all to know how many young... African-American men are trying so hard to succeed in school and get to college and get jobs. It was something about or, you know, that opened my perception because partly because it was so personal. It was not something that You read in an editorial, like all of a sudden you've woken up.

[22:40]

It's really these personal, personal interactions Another thing that happened to me was when I came and I was in my first relationship with a woman, I decided I was never going to tell my mother. Because why? I didn't want to torture myself. It wouldn't benefit her to know she was 3,000 miles away. I just thought it wasn't necessary. And they came out to visit a lot. And so I brought my girlfriend, Elaine, because my parents always wanted to meet my friends.

[23:48]

So I thought, they're never going to figure this out. So actually, she called me up after I came, after she flew back home, she called me up and asked me, if I was a lesbian. And it wasn't that Elaine. I said yes. And she said, oh, that is so disgusting. Don't tell your father. It'll kill him. So I thought, OK, I won't tell my father. What difference does it make? I went back to Philadelphia a few years later to visit, and I go out to lunch with him. He wants to go out alone. So we're having lunch, and we finish up, and he's paying the bill, and then he says, by the way, Karen, I know all about your relationship with Elaine, and it's perfectly fine with me.

[25:04]

Now I have to say this is, we're talking early age. Anyway, that had such an effect on me, not just that it was fine, but it was important for him to tell me that and make a point of it. And speaking of my mother, I had a very difficult relationship with my mother. She was a screamer. And I thought I would describe her as a rageaholic. And it seemed to me she was screaming day, day and night. And I was terrified. And she was very judgmental.

[26:13]

Speak a lot, particularly about LGBT people who she couldn't stand. But she kept wanting to visit me, talk on the phone, and clearly she wasn't cutting the ties. She just wanted me to know how much she didn't approve. And I felt a lot of shame that I could not figure out the exact source or the nature of. It was just kind of a thing that I had. And I felt criticized a lot. But then when I was in my early 40s, somehow I realized that my mother was terrified.

[27:25]

Rather than being powerful, which is what I actually perceived her to be powerful. I mean, she had the power to really practically ruin my life. She was powerful. But then, I realized that all this screaming and yelling and raging, it was really out of fear. And that she was actually powerless. That's what I was talking about. This sense of being powerless. And then, as a complete accident, I forgave my mother. We talk about forgiveness. It's very important, and so just gave a talk about the importance of forgiveness. But sometimes it's hard to do it intentionally. You might say, I'm going to forgive this person, but still, you know, you're holding on and holding on and have an internal battle with, but you do this, you know, you haven't said you're sorry, and, you know, everything.

[28:41]

But when I realized her suffering, I couldn't help but forgive her. So I wanted to go on to a number of our important teachers, Dogen, who lived in Japan in the 13th century. And I want to read my favorite verse, which I know I've read before. Our tradition here at Berkeley Zen Center comes through Dogen.

[29:50]

Wouldn't you agree with that, Hosanna? Yes. He wrote many fascicles expounding his understanding of the Buddha Dharma which we read and include in our study. One of my favorite writings of his is called and it's called it translates to I think actualizing the fundamental point or I like to use the word manifesting but at least in this book Moon and a Dewdrop translated by or edited by Kaz Tanahashi and translated by many people That's the translation. But I think this verse to me about perception and how we can practice mindfulness and really investigate ourselves and what manifests as self.

[31:14]

So I'm going to read it. To study the Buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is when actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind, as well as the bodies and minds of others, drop away. So we come to practice the Buddha way. And the first entry, usually we begin with zazen. I know a bunch of you came today and received zazen instruction from Jerry. So we study the self.

[32:18]

We sit down on the cushion. And what happens? We see ourselves, whether we like it or not. I remember when I first started, I thought, Sitting on the cushion meant that the mind went blank and you were all peaceful. And that's what meditation was. But it took me about one second to realize that wasn't the case. So, one sits down on the cushion or the chair to practice Zazen and one confronts oneself. That could be in many forms. It could be in the physical discomfort, a mind that just thinks constantly, going round and round and round, which is something I'm familiar with.

[33:28]

It can be some emotion that just keeps following grief, fear. So we study the self, though. So what does study mean? It means looking, seeing. So when we sit down, one might be consumed by anger, for example, in that moment. So what does one do? We study or investigate. Now, this is not analytical. We're not talking about therapizing ourselves or trying to figure out where everything came from.

[34:35]

We get the nature of the feeling. So, as most of you realize, feelings and sensations and thoughts are impermanent. So 10 minutes may go by and you forgot you were angry. You're onto something else. It's important to really understanding permanence. In fact, Dogen said that that's the number of understanding in one of his first books, Instructions to the Monks. He said, you can't study the Buddha way without understanding impermanence. And that's something we see and experience all the time.

[35:35]

slowly as we sit with ourselves and investigate without judgment. It's very important not to beat yourself up. Try and make something happen. Just be with whatever is arising and let it be there and look at it. One can see the nature of the self. So then he goes on to say to study the self is to forget the self because that kind of ego self that's complaining perhaps, longing, hungry, starts to get smaller. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things.

[36:46]

So for my observation, as the self is smaller and not interfering with every encounter and interaction, the myriad things, meaning everything that we perceive here, smell, comfort, and we can see them more clearly. What time is it now, please? I don't want to go on forever. Okay, I think I'm going to stop. I think what Dobin has to say is so important because as we sit, we drop our conditioning. We drop our thoughts.

[37:56]

We illustrate our conditioning, our emotional habits. We have some time for responses or... Hosanna, I just would like to ask you if you'd like to comment. Well, thank you. I really appreciated the personal sections of the talk. Can you hear me okay? Can you hear me out there in Disneyland? I think that Part of what I understood the MCOS program and our kind of larger responsibility is in order to see the people around us, or the world around us, be able to see our conditioning.

[38:59]

That's hard. And I'm wondering if you have instruction as to how can we zero in on our conditioning? to see what arises in one's own mind when we're in particular situations. I think it's really important to talk to people, which is one of the beauties of the MCOS program. I was talking to people and hearing, you know, what happened to you? What was your life like? A lot of us, you know, I said that I grew up in kind of a particular community.

[40:03]

I wasn't really exposed to other people until I was older. I think that one of the successes of MCOS was people felt more comfortable talking. Do you agree you were in it? I do. Our practice often is just sitting here silently and we learn things about each other in a very nitty-gritty physical way, which is also important. But there are surprising, infinite surprising aspects of everyone's life that we have to be in a position where we can hear them and where they feel free to see them.

[41:05]

And I would just, to give a plug, we're about to, we're going to enter a second round of MCOS. participate in it, right? Yes, we will do MCOS again, starting in the fall for nine months with Professor Rhonda Magee. And I hope you will consider that. But I think, I really think like you're saying that you have to know people. You know, you have to get to know them and to talk to them. Sue and then Colleen. Yoni will pass around the mic. Okay. And if you're on Zoom and if you would like to say something, please raise your digital hand and I will check back.

[42:13]

Thank you, Pam. I kept thinking about what was coming up in the moment that was so uncomfortable for me to face. And sometimes sitting in Zasana, that's an opportunity. Those delusions are also Dharma gates. And when I was tired, I felt like weeping. And I thought, well, Karen said, we can examine it. And I started to do that and breathe into it. And I just feel like weeping, and that's okay. What I would really ask of you is to read the Genjo Koan. Thank you. I'm going to read that, and I'm also going to read something I forgot that I also want to read. This is just a verse from the Genjo Koan. To study the way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self.

[43:15]

To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind, as well as the bodies and minds of others, drop away. And I did want to read one of these. This is from Nagarjuna's middle wave verses. This is a verse about views. And this relates to emptiness. People confuse emptiness with either non-existence, for example. The victorious ones have said that emptiness is the relinquishing of all views. For whomever emptiness is a view, that one has accomplished nothing.

[44:22]

So you have to be careful when people toot a horn about things being empty. I hate to say it, but that Supreme Court about affirmative action reminds me of that. Colleen? Oh. Go ahead, Colleen. Colleen and then Margot. Thanks, Karen. I was just so moved. mother and your father. I never heard that about your father. It really, really moved me. And I guess I'm curious. I mean, I know enough about your ongoing relationship with your mother to know that it wasn't all peaches and cream, you know, after that. But speak a little bit about what your seeing of her fear invited her to do, or what effect did it have on her?

[45:30]

Did it have an effect on her? She just thought we had a great relationship. Bless you. You just gave her such a gift. You gave her such a gift. Well, you know, I think she felt she had to chase me around to force me to relate to her. And it was kind of true. She did have to. Then I gave up the resistance. And I, because my mother also was a very intelligent, witty, smart woman. She was engaging on many levels. I appreciate about her. So Margo? Let's see if they can hear you. Can you hear Margo? Wait a second.

[46:30]

In Zoom? OK. My question is about, I think, maybe fixed use. it seems that when we're totally caught by the thinking mind, like we're totally caught by that, then it's hard to even know that excuse exists because it just seems to be the truth about the world. And even my sitting with Azen, and becoming silent, but then we stand up and act in the world and there's kind of this implicit thing functioning. I don't know. I think maybe I have some desire to get an answer of how to... Like, is it possible to...

[47:40]

really see that? Is it possible to drop your views? Or even just recognize the things that we hold as true. I don't know about holding a belief as true. It's hard to even recognize that it's a belief. That's a really good point. I think a lot of I'll project. I think that is what the big problem is in the world. People believe their views, and they don't think of them as views. It's very possible to look at ourselves and see what is an actual view.

[48:42]

Now, one thing I forget which teacher, if it was Thich Nhat Hanh or somebody who said, ultimately the right view is no view. You've dropped your views. It's really hard to have compassion for others when you have a really strong viewpoint. The woman at Berkeley Public Library, this thing which now is so obvious about young African-American men, I have to say that it surprised me, and I don't know why it surprised me, but it changed my view or my understanding. Let's use the word understanding. But I encounter my views all the time.

[49:51]

Read the news, read the paper, get upset. So does that address your question at all? You can follow up a few. You think so? Okay. Anybody? on Zoom. Gary. Well would you say the use is dropping a body and mind or how do you see body and mind in Mike Dogen's statement? I see body and mind as all the things that we experience as ourself.

[50:55]

So, maybe an aching leg from sitting zazen, or some health condition we're in. Mind is all those... Saying this emotion of sadness. That's all body and mind. And that's all the self. That's what Dogen means about dropping the self. It's dropping our conditioning. Hosanna. It's all well and good to posit the right view as no view.

[52:00]

And that's one side. The other side is what we're called upon to have views and make evaluations. How do you live with that? that tension, perhaps. When I'm at a point, I tend to have a strong emotion involved. Sometimes anger or self-righteousness, for example. That doesn't get me anywhere in terms of I have to wait. I have to let my reactions settle down. Now, I agree that, I mean, I have viewpoints, and you can say that the Buddhist tenets are viewpoints.

[53:18]

I mean, it is because it's not like anything goes. I mean, this verse from Nagarjuna on views is if your view is that things are empty or that there's nothing, then you don't get the point. Say, young African-American men suffering from really having their path to actualization blocked, or if you're seeing the astonishing pushback around in states and governments around LGBTQ Well, I lean on my bodhisattva vow.

[54:49]

The bodhisattva vow is to end suffering for all beings. That includes people in prisons, people everywhere who are suffering. Including those who cause suffering? Yes, including those who cause suffering. We vow to save everyone. And the ones who cause suffering are suffering too.

[55:44]

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