and unsurpassed. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Merkney's Uncensored Saturday Darwin Talk ongoing program. Today I have a good pleasure to introduce our speaker today, Susan Marvin. Susan grew up in Vermont, came to California in 1979, and arrived to practice here at BCC with Sojin Roshi in 1991. She received both lay ordination and lay entrustment from Sojin.

[01:12]

The name he gave her is Sen Te Kokyo, Spring Garden Virtuous Presence. Susan lives here in Berkeley with her husband, Victor, and they have one daughter, Lee Hong, who lives in New York City. Susan retired one week ago after teaching English as a second language at the community college level for 30 years. She is looking forward to spending a lot of time outside in the coming months and watching for what may emerge in this next chapter of her life. We'll be watching, too, as she turns his proverbial page. Thank you. Thank you, Ross. How's the sound? Is it too loud? So welcome.

[02:18]

Hello everyone here in the Zendo, full Zendo this morning and welcome online wherever you may be. And I want to especially welcome anybody who's fairly new to practice or may even be here for the first day. We're all really glad to have you here. Some of us, I guess a lot of us, are in the midst of our yearly spring six-week practice period. And we just completed our second week. And for this time, every year the abbot invites a seasoned practitioner to serve as the head student, to share the seat with him, so to speak. And this position is called the Shuso. And this year, our Shuso is Sue Osher.

[03:20]

And Sue sits throughout the six weeks in the seat beside the abbot sitting facing out. She gave her first talk last Saturday, and she'll be giving several other talks during the six week period. She sits daily Zazen. She meets with participants in the practice period for teas and discussion. She attends the weekly practice period Thursday night class among other events. It's a full schedule and she serves as a model for really the fullness of a wholehearted practice. Practice period is a time for us to deepen our practice, to intensify our practice in some way. You know, as we practice throughout the year, we might get a little bit sloppy or lazy, or we might stop cumming even.

[04:35]

We might feel a little bit stale in our approach or our understanding of our practice. So practice period is a way for us to renew our practice, add some freshness to our practice. That kind of renewal is important to our growth and to our ability to sustain a practice over a lifetime. I kind of think of it a bit like spring, the renewal that spring brings to the natural world all around us, kind of vitality. So as it offers us this opportunity to renew our practice, we may ask ourselves, what is this practice all about? Why are we even doing this? What is Zen practice and how do we want to practice? So as we look at all the parts that are being offered to us for practice period, we're encouraged to say yes to everything.

[05:49]

And then we sit down and we look at our schedule and our life. and we commit ourselves to what we can actually realistically do, each person individually, because ours is a lay practice and we all have responsibilities and commitments to our home, our job, or if we're a student, to our studies, other commitments that we might have. So we decide what can we reasonably do, and then we make an intention to follow through on what we can do to practice as fully as we can. Each one giving what we can, depending on our individual situation.

[06:50]

We don't make our choices based on preferences. Instead, we look at our schedule and see what fits the practice period schedule and then try to do what we can. So we pay attention to the question, what can I reasonably do given that I have these responsibilities? And we don't hold everyone to the same standard. We let each person make their own choices about what they can reasonably do. We encourage each person to stretch a bit more than what we usually do throughout the year, but we allow each person to make that kind of decision for themselves. So from early on in the Buddha's time, that community of disciples practiced together in a practice period.

[07:55]

And they did that in the rainy season in India in the summer because they weren't able to wander around as they usually did and beg and teach. So they began to practice together during these long practice periods, three-month practice periods. And in Dogen's time, the monks practiced together in three-month summer practice periods. And because it was a monastic practice, everyone had the same commitment. Everyone followed the same schedule. But ours is a lay practice. So each one of us decides what we can do, what will fit our life for this six-week period. One of Dogen's fascicles in the Shobogenzo is called practice period. And I'd like to just read a very few lines because it can perhaps give us a flavor of what practice period is to understand how we relate to it.

[09:08]

Even though he's talking about monastic practice, the attitude that we bring to practice period is really no different. So he says, to grab hold of this spirit, to train constantly for 30 years, eating meals, sleeping and stretching your legs, this requires unstinting support. The structure of the practice period provides such support. It's the head and face of Buddhas and ancestors. It's been intimately transmitted as their skin, flesh, bones and marrow. regard the whole of each practice period as the whole of the Buddhas and ancestors. Although the practice period serves as a support for us, the Buddha ancestors did not create it on our behalf.

[10:13]

They only handed it down to us from the past, heir to heir authentically. This being so, To experience a practice period is to experience all Buddhas and all ancestors. To experience a practice period is to see Buddhas and ancestors directly. Buddhas and ancestors have been produced by the practice period for a long, long time. So it's important to remind ourselves that we didn't make this up, that we're connected to a long line of ancestors, that we're part of them and they're part of us in a really, I think, a very real sense.

[11:14]

My feeling is it's like a stream flowing into a large lake or a river flowing into the bay and the ocean. You can't tell one water from another water. It all mixes together. It's all one. And I think that's how it is in our practice. The ancestors support us and inspire us and encourage us. And we help to keep the ancestors alive. through our practice. Without us practicing, without us continuing the practice, there would be no ancestors. So this is a very important point. So during practice period, we try to stretch a bit, and then we have the opportunity to watch, to see how that plays out in our practice and in our life.

[12:24]

we learn more about what we're able to do. So since we've just finished the second week of our practice period, it's kind of a good time to think about how it's going. A couple of weeks ago, I was cleaning out some papers and I came across this single sheet by Sojin Roshi. It's called Practices by Sojin Roshi. And every year he used to talk about practices we could take on during practice period. And I want to say, if you're not signed up for the practice period, if you're not in this practice period, that's absolutely fine. it's okay because you can still come to the Zen center and do daily Zazen.

[13:34]

And that's really the basis of our practice. And it's actually the basis of our practice period. So my hope is I'm going to read these practices by Sojin one by one. And I've written down a few comments of my own that I'll share. And my hope is that they're relevant to all of us, that it doesn't matter if we're in the practice period or not. They're practices that we can consider in our daily practice. So he starts by saying the following are items to be aware of during our practice period. One may be more pertinent to you than the other. but each one is an important element to be aware of. I suggest practicing, selecting at least one to practice with and bringing it as a subject for Dokka-san or practice discussion.

[14:38]

We can meet with practice leaders and priests and have a little talk about how practice is going and I recommend that during practice period or any time really. By the way, Sojin used to put a stack of these out on the patio shelf, and I've also put a stack out there for anybody to take one after the lecture, and I'll post it online for those of you who aren't here in person. So the first one, there are 15. We'll see how far we get. First one is not in competition. Don't attach to comparing. So this is really important, you know, competing and comparing. It's deadly, really, because in terms of our practice, it takes us right away from what we're doing.

[15:44]

It takes us right away from pure practice, pure practice being No division, no separation, no gap, right? Doing what's right there in front of us. It distracts us from what we're doing. So, you know, practicing with a vow of intention may help us. vowing not to compete, vowing not to compare. We're also trained in Zen practice to lower our eyes when we're practicing together. This really helps us to focus on just this being, just this practice, not looking around to compare ourselves with others. Some can do more, some less. It really doesn't matter.

[16:45]

So instead we can inspire each other and be inspired by each other, support and encourage each other. The next one is called limiting your activities. Stay with the essentials. So we might ask, what are the essentials? A good question that comes up is, what do I need? What do I really need? And we might consider reducing things that bring us momentary pleasure. Take a look at our activities and what do we really need to sustain our practice. I kind of feel like with limitation, when there's limitation, there's a greater opportunity for

[17:51]

universality and also it's not as important how much we do as it is how we do what we do so if we limit our activities we can take a look at our attitude and how our vitality emerges where joy comes from How we're connected to something that's so much bigger than this small person. There's so many interesting things to do in the world. So it's a good question to carry around how to limit activities. What do I need? The next one is called spring cleaning.

[18:53]

Create a clear path. And some of these kind of overlap, like limiting your activities really overlaps with spring cleaning. But spring cleaning has this kind of feeling, at least to me, of freshness. You know, go through the closet and get rid of the clothes that I haven't worn for 10 years, right? Clear a path. Get rid of things that are unneeded, right? loosen attachments it helps to reduce clutter we can say that physically in our homes but also in the mind create a clear path helps us to center the mind be more fresh It's possible to focus on doing one thing at a time. Full absorption with less clutter.

[20:02]

The next one's called review and balance your activities. Create a reasonable schedule. So creating a reasonable schedule has to do with balance, right? I kind of think myself of home life and work life and temple practice in a kind of triangular image I have so that the effort is given equally to those three very important parts of life. And that word review, you know, that's helpful because it means that we don't just set a schedule and then that's it forever. We have to continually review what we're doing and how we're doing and make adjustments. So adjusting is important.

[21:13]

Maybe I'm doing too much. Maybe I'm not doing enough. Adjust, right? No criticism, just observe and adjust. Helps us slow down. Pay attention. When there's balance, drop this me, myself and I. The next one is home and work practice equal effort. So equal effort really makes me think about seamless practice. When we leave the gate, what then?

[22:17]

you know, when we come here, this is not just one of many interesting activities. It's the center of life that helps us live a kind of seamless life, going from one activity to the next activity, equal effort, kind of like a sushine, where we move from one activity to the next in a schedule. And as we practice that way, our life is more seamless or our effort is more seamless. Equal effort also helps us develop patience. Actually, just the question, what is equal effort?

[23:26]

I find that's a good question. Just carry around, not even have the answer, just carry the question around. What is equal effort? The next one is harmonious family and Sangha practice. Your partners are all practicing Buddhas. I love this one because it reminds me of Sojin Roshi. He was always telling us, don't think that you're any better than your partners who are home in bed sleeping. Right? We are all practicing Buddhas. It's kind of refreshing. Harmonious family and Sangha practice. So that's about our attitude, right? Harmonious is about our attitude. Remind ourselves. Especially when we're in difficulties or having a problem.

[24:41]

in our family or our sangha or conflict. Sojin talked about, used the word blend. We have that opportunity in chanting to blend. He used the analogy of mixing water and milk and you can't tell which is which. So one person with many personalities Thirty is one and one is thirty. We don't always feel harmonious because of our own self-centeredness. So taking a look at how we're opinionated how we retreat or how we criticize, critical mind, gossip, inability to say yes or inability to say no.

[26:02]

Have some awareness, focus on some awareness of our behavioral problems or difficulties. practicing forgiveness. You know, just watching all of these things, not criticizing ourselves, but just noticing, observing. The next one is called helping others, not withholding spiritually or materially. So this is kind of tricky because that word helping is tricky. We have to watch for gaining idea when we think we're helping, right? How to help with no gaining idea, with no attachment to fame or gain, not withholding spiritually or materially.

[27:12]

How do we do that? Well, how do we support the Shuso? How do we support each other during the practice period? How do we support our family members? How do we support the ancestors? And how do we put aside our self-interest? Suzuki Roshi said, it's possible to practice alone. You know, we can do that, but When we practice with others under the same conditions, then there's the possibility of eliminating our self-centered practice. And that's the way that we help each other. The next one is called paying attention to how greed, ill will and delusion arise, as well as when loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity arise.

[28:36]

Make an effort to transform the former into the latter. So how do we do that? Notice. observe don't criticize you know ask ourselves what is buddha's intention practice generosity generosity of our attitude our spirit Here in the Zendo, but how about out on the street, or in our car, or on the bus, or at the store? Walking down the street, how we greet people. Are we friendly? Do we smile? Just paying attention to how our feelings arise.

[29:41]

The next one is called taking time to study. Even a short time each day is beneficial. So in our practice period, we have a class every Thursday night and the importance of coming prepared. And when we're not in practice period, just having something small to be Reading or studying or discussing with someone is a good thing to do. Taking time to study. The next one is being mindful. Awareness is an aspect of enlightenment. So. Mindful of what? Maintaining an awareness of breath, right?

[31:01]

Moment to moment awareness of breath. Sojin used to say, wherever you are, you're home. So know where your breath is. He was always telling us that. Know where your breath is, no matter what situation you find yourself in. And every time you let go, that's an opportunity for returning and enjoying that moment, renewal. The next one is being aware of self-centeredness and letting go. Enjoy the relief. It is a relief when we let go of self-centeredness.

[32:04]

So we can notice self-centeredness, not criticize, just notice it. Come back to the breath and enjoy the relief. Surrender. return. It's like beginner's mind, you know, practicing shikantaza, just sitting. When we let go, we kind of renew our life moment by moment. Self-centeredness is just another form of expression of ego that we can practice being aware of and letting go of. This past semester, there was a woman in a class I was teaching, a wonderful young woman, really smart.

[33:15]

And every time that she began to say something in class, she would preface it by saying, my English is terrible. I'm so bad at English. I'm so embarrassed to speak. I really need to learn English. I'm just no good at it. One of those things she would always say, and I took her aside one day and I said, I have a suggestion. Stop saying those things before you speak. and instead say to yourself, I'm doing this. I'm learning English. I'm making this great effort. I'm in the midst of it. I'm on this path, right? And I'm helping myself. I'm helping to improve my life and I'm helping to improve the lives of my family members.

[34:19]

and my community. I said, just try saying that to yourself and drop that other stuff. And she did. She stopped saying that. And you could see that relief. And on the last day a week ago, when we had the final exam, when we were saying goodbye, I took her aside and I said, you know, As far as I can tell, your confidence this semester has grown enormously, your confidence in speaking English. And she said to me, oh, that's because of you. And I said, no, that's not because of me at all. That's because of your own great effort to be positive, to bring forth a positive attitude. So being aware of self-centeredness and letting go. Enjoy the relief. The next one is taking on a particular personal practice such as one precept.

[35:27]

So it might be a precept that you're particularly drawn to or that's up or there are people sowing rakasus and going through the precepts. There might be a precept there that's of interest to just take a look at as a personal practice. The next one is called integrating practice and daily life activities with zazen as the fundamental touchstone. So this really is a seamless life. with no gap. Integrating practice and daily life activities with Zazen as the fundamental touchstone. That's the secret to Zen really, right? Seamless life.

[36:31]

Takes a long time to develop that attitude, right? The next one is called stillness within activity and activity within stillness, back and forth. So this really is our life. Notice this is zazen, activity, stillness within activity. activity within stillness. This is zazen and this is our life. I heard this composer recently say that silence is the source of music. Silence is the source of music. And I thought, Yes, that's absolutely true.

[37:40]

And I thought, and silence is the source of our practice. Silence is the source of Zen practice. So silence is the source of our life. Stillness within activity, activity within stillness, back and forth, right? When we come to practice, sometimes we think we're going to get rid of thoughts. You know, we're going to sit so marvelously that we're not going to have thoughts anymore. But of course, we learn that's not true. There's stillness in activity and activity in stillness. The next one is called finding the right rhythm and making adjustments.

[38:50]

It makes everything work more easily. So we know that word rhythm from music, or athletes know that word rhythm. Finding the right rhythm. Rhythm is always changing, right? So the stream is the continuous practice. We're always in the stream of continuous practice. And the rhythm is the adjustments we make to that practice. Finding the right rhythm. And making adjustments. It makes everything work more easily. Are we doing too much? Are we doing too little? Adjust.

[39:53]

Finding our breath in that rhythm. It reminds me of the way seeking mind talk that Peter Overton gave on Monday. He talked about returning to what he called neutral space and posture. You know, It's a familiar place, but it's different each time. Just like a place we might really love to visit is familiar, but each time we come back, it's a little different. So he talked about bringing aliveness to everything I'm doing. Finding the right rhythm. And he asked the question, how do I want to move in this situation with no gaining idea or idea of accomplishment?

[41:16]

These are good questions to carry. And maybe the secret to our enlightened activity, finding the right rhythm and making adjustments. A couple of weeks ago, two weeks ago, my husband and I were in New York City and we went to the MoMA Museum to see a new exhibit of Georgia O'Keeffe's very earliest drawings and watercolors. And there was this little quote along the way. She said, to see takes time, just like to have a friend takes time. And I thought, and to have pure practice, to really practice in this way, takes time, takes a long time.

[42:23]

Finding the right rhythm, right? And making adjustments, practicing continuously. So at the end, Sojin Roshi says, practice period is like a tune-up. Even the Bodhisattva vehicle needs periodic renewal. What time do you have? I have two minutes after 11. So do I. Well, that seems like a good place to stop. And we have some time for comments or discussion or questions. Thank you all very much. And those of you online can raise your digital hand if you have something to say.

[43:30]

And hi, Austin. Thank you for this beautiful talk. Can you speak a little bit more about stillness in action and action in stillness? Well, I would think you might be a good person to say something about that as an artist. What's your experience of stillness in art? Well, it starts with observation, really. Looking mindfully, or thinking mindfully, or paying attention mindfully. Is that a still place? There you go. I'm watching you. Thank you. Jeff Taylor, unmute yourself. Susan, thank you so much for a wonderful lecture.

[44:32]

You called so many things for me as you spoke through that and the way that Sojin used to talk about practice, period. And one of the things that came up for me was when Sojin used to talk about hearing with your eyes and seeing with your ears. And so many images came up for me of practice, and you called my understanding in some really nice ways. And one of those images was around sewing my rakasu, And understanding or having an understanding then of stillness and motion and finding motion and stillness. Those things are still important to me. And I want to thank you for all the things you brought back. I'm looking forward to resting and resetting and staying with the silence that informs everything that I do. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much for those refreshers and reminders.

[45:42]

Early on in the talk you said something about how limitation promotes universality and I wondered if you could expand on that. I'll try and maybe others have something to say about that. You know my feeling is that Sojan used to talk about this. Culturally, we think we're free by having more and more choices. The more things we can do, the more activities we can try, the freer we'll be. But actually, when we limit our activity, when we really pare it down, we're more free. The thing is that the kinds of freedoms that we think of culturally really come at the expense of other people, don't they?

[46:44]

We enjoy the ability to do almost anything we want to do, but it often comes at the expense of others. So I guess what I mean by universality is that when we limit ourselves, we offer we could offer more to others. Does that make sense? I understand. Yeah, I understand what you're saying now. I thought there was something else in there that I don't quite have yet, and I just wanted to probe that a little bit with you, although it's almost the opposite. What came to mind when you said that was how Suzuki Roshi said, when I see you out on the street, I can't tell you apart. but when you're all in here sitting doing the same thing, I see exactly who you are. Well, that's a nice way of looking at it, too. It's not quite what I was thinking, but I like that as an alternative. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

[47:48]

Question? Yes, my question was, you kind of evoked the ancestors several times, and it seemed to be in a way that was more fundamental than this kind of intellectual transmission of talking about the Dharma. I guess I was just curious if you could talk about how the ancestors show up for you during practice period. Could everyone hear, Margo? How did the ancestors show up or how to emote them? You know, What really pops into the mind right now is it might be a function of age. The older I get, the ancestors feel very close to me. You know, my parents have both passed away. And every morning when I put on the Raka Sioux, I thank them for being here. And I feel a closeness to them.

[48:50]

And I feel that with our former abbot. Sojin Roshi. And I just think it's so easy to think we can change this all up because we're modern and we're smart, but this is an ancient practice that connects us to the ancestors. And it's really important for me to remember that, to remind myself that we're really connected to the ancestors. So I've heard sometimes people say they don't like the Japanese when we chant in Japanese or that we could do away with chanting in our practice in the future. And for me, the chanting in Japanese connects me to the ancestors. It helps me remember that our practice came from another place and time, and that we're just part of that stream.

[50:00]

And we will be the ancestors of those in the future. So does that, did I answer your question a little bit? Sure, I'm working for that specific answer. Let's see. Kabir and then Joel. Hi, Kabir. Hi. Thank you so much for this great talk. When you mentioned about competition, I kept thinking about the four different types of horses. And I wanted to ask you, what is your take on the four different horses, types of horses? Well, you know, I've always been a slow horse. You know, it was really Sojin Roshi that helped me realize it's okay to be slow and methodic.

[51:07]

I always grew up thinking it was a flaw, you know, to be a late bloomer. Everything I've done in my life has been... late, I used to say, but late implies some kind of value judgment, doesn't it? Yeah. So, you know, there are some flowers that bloom like right before frost, and they're just as beautiful as the ones that bloom all the way through the season, right? Yeah, yeah. So that's kind of the way I look at it now. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hi, Joel. Hi. Hi. This is wonderful. Thank you so much. Hi. Okay. Well, my question is probably pretty obvious, which is which composer said silence is a source of music?

[52:12]

Sorry, I didn't catch that. Say it again. Which composer is the one who said that Saga is the source of music? Oh, yeah. I think you and I had this conversation. It was that Japanese composer that recently died. That's right. And I don't have the name on the top of my head, but I'll tell you when we talk. And so do you recall something about his understanding of what he was saying or the context? or your understanding of what he meant by that. Well, you're the composer. Why don't you say something? Well, you know, I was thinking about that. It's sort of like sound in your head. And that sound happens in silence. It can't happen any other time.

[53:16]

You know, when we're flipping around with whatever movie we're telling ourselves, it's not going to happen. I mean, it happens in session. And so that's when I violate the precautions. And it's a true confession here. And that's when a lot of the best stuff happens. So there's silence. And then this stuff pops up and I violate the precepts if I really like it and write it down. Thank you very much. Jake Van Ackeren is there and he just put up this signal. So I guess he liked that comment, as did I. Thank you very much. Thank you, Susan. Yeah, that musical question is intriguing. My question is, what would you say to people? You spoke of the rhythm, getting into the rhythm of practice.

[54:23]

But so many of us, for whatever reason, psychological or physical, find our rhythm sometimes suddenly or sometimes gradually thrown off course, such that what was once our practice can no longer be our practice, and how to find stability still in the flow when that happens. So, what would you say? I would say I'm looking at you laying in your bed with your beautiful green rakasu on, and you have a new rhythm. And look at that smile on your face, and I appreciate that you're practicing. with my heating pad and that's okay. Well, thank you. But for others, do you have like some other words of wisdom? Well, the other thing that pops into the head is the word return.

[55:28]

I mean, I think we all fall off the cushion from time to time and, or the chair or the bench or, whatever and that our practice is about returning and we know how to do that and returning might have a different time span you know it could be a day a week a month several years but we have the practice in our bodies and we know how to return whether or not it's in the temple? I don't know. I just made that up. What do you think? Well, I agree. For me personally, it's been to stay with Zazen for however short periods I can and try to make it as routinely as I can, but to be easy on myself.

[56:38]

do what I can. So, thanks. That sounds good to me. Thank you. I think it's time to stop. Thank you all very much. And I hope you have a wonderful weekend.

[56:59]

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