While I'm giving a talk, although when we have individual conversations, I'm very happy to have you see me as you see me. But you can give me maybe a little bit more leeway. I'm going to figure out how to do this. So, I'm feeling a little uneasy today. a little wondering about being self-revelatory, perhaps. Although I have been in the past in many ways, but for some reason, just to let you know, I think there are some things that I will say that might not sound that they have any charge, but for me, they do. So I'm just letting people know my state of mind right now.

[01:03]

In Sashin, where things have come up, and as they always do, and usually, and I have made a vow to not spiritually bypass, but to actually try to embody what's there. So that's the backstory. So I found surprisingly during this practice period, as we studied the teachings of the Lotus Sutra and we talked about all the world is medicine, that I was feeling that they seemed kind of too abstract for me or sometimes too idealistic. And my inner cynic appeared. And when that happens, you stop opening sometimes to the understanding that may be right before you.

[02:15]

And that very resistance actually is a clue that you need to listen, or that I need to listen anyway, and I need to delve in more. So, I had a funny title for this at one point, which embodied my cynical self, and it was a quote from Sarah Palin from one of her vice presidential talks. She said, how's all that hopey-changey stuff working out? And that kind of embodied how I felt about the teaching of the heart syndrome. But I can't stop there, right? That would be bypassing, making a joke, you know, saying, well, we all talk about all this airy, fairy love and compassion and whatever.

[03:17]

What about down here on the ground in the front line? So I decided to investigate. a little bit, and I investigated my own relationship with the Lotus Sutra from when I first heard it and studied it. When I first studied, when I first, what would I say, crawled into Green Gulch, it was after a murder of a dear friend whose body I found stabbed to death. and near her baby's crib. And I was just found out that I was pregnant at the time. And so I figured I had to do something and I'd heard something about Zen and whatever. And so I made my way to Green Gulch. And there I met Rev Anderson.

[04:23]

Now, some of you know Reb well, and some of you may not know him at all. But Reb, especially in his glory days, was beautiful. He would just look like a god or a Buddha. And he would wear flowing, colorful robes. Each time it would be a blue robe or a red robe or whatever. And he'd float into the zendo and kind of sit on the platform with all his colorful robes. And there was always a lot of ceremony. They did a lot of extra things in the ceremonies that we don't do here. To make it more and more, they had, and of course they had an incense burner thing and whatever. At any rate, I immediately fell for it. It was going to be the answer that this light emitting, colorful, beautiful person sitting there so stably, smiling, so seemingly accepting that that was going to save me.

[05:34]

And so I developed an ongoing relationship with Reb and Green Gulch and did a lot of practice periods and things there. And my experience of practice in those early days was, it was magical practice. I guess it's like Prachega Buddha practice where you don't really understand anything, but you sit down there in the comfort of that Zendo and your mind blows up. And so I would have these, all of these Kensho experiences. I would have, every time I walked out the yard or the garden, I would see the flowers and see the dew on the grass and see the colors. And I would just have these hyper- My senses were heightened and I would see in a way that I hadn't seen before. And it managed to make me feel safe.

[06:38]

And even safe enough eventually to experience, re-experience the trauma and the zendo and not, and cry, but not fall apart. So I believed, I was a believer, right? And from that, those first wild moments of, you know, these random enlightenment little bits of pieces that we call them Kenchos, which of course got me caught at first. But then the actual experience, not of that, but of, but of the actual being next to the crib with my friend. and saying goodbye, I could actually do that. So it was more than just my initial falling in love with the trappings and the ceremony and the beauty of it all was being safe and being able to actually experience fully what had been really preventing me from living my life in a

[07:53]

easeful and productive way. So this, but Reb, of course, was more than that. And he was quite skillful. And one day when I was in Dokusan, I told him about one of these great awakenings. I don't even remember what it was anymore because, you know, you can have these things there, they pass. whatever. And he looked at me and it was a story, a whole story about how I understood something. And he looked at me in the eye and he said, that was a great story. Now, why don't you go back and sit in the Zendo and come back tomorrow with another story that explains that same phenomenon. Ah, so he said, get your feet on the ground and get your feet on the ground and be here.

[08:58]

This is the end of the part where you're at for all. This is the end of the part where I always say nice things. This is the time when I say sit down. So ultimately then, so that was my experience with that and sort of that remnant of that Shravaka practice that whatever the seeking enlightenment or experiences practice was there. But I switched to Zen centers at some point for lots of reasons and met Sojin. And Sojin in his first, early on in my meeting with him after I had kind of come to him with some of these experiences I'd had and so forth, Surgeon said, you just need to sit right down here.

[10:00]

You don't go to any of these women's retreats or other practice places or whatever. What you need to do is be here. I want to see you here. Figure out how many days a week you can come. I'll see you here, stay here. So he kind of saw my practice, which was whatever name you want to give it. loving Zen, being in love with Zen, having a transference relationship with the teacher, they saw that and they said, no, Jerry, you're on the wrong track. Not in a harsh way. It was never a harsh way. It was just like Rev said it in a playful way. When I was thinking today about this, and I was thinking about Sojin, and this song came to mind, but it's just a remnant. You know, it was, hey, hey, you, you, get off of that cloud.

[11:04]

Hey, hey, you, you, get off of that cloud. We're running around all over town. Anyway, that's what it felt like. And I think that's my tendency. You know, and... And they saw it, and they fostered me. And so that's kind of my experience of this journey from Shravaka, Prachika Buddha, whatever, to something, this may be a mix of all three, but actually coming to practice. And it took 12 years, I don't know, something like that. I have to say, I did enjoy being in love with practice. It was really wonderful. And the spiritual bypass was great. But I'm sorry to say it didn't last. So that's my experience of my journey through what is not the Lotus Sutra, but my life.

[12:07]

And putting that in the context of how I received the Lotus Sutra. So, heck, the rest of this is going to be boring, I think. So I, but I started feeling when we were, when we were studying the Lotus Sutra, as I say, I started feeling a resistance, some oppositional thing going on. So here, so this is, this is where I got, so I get the Shravakas or the listeners or the disciples of the teacher are limited by their dependence on a teacher. or the Dharma and attached to doing things right so that they can achieve personal liberation or Nirvana and thus are self-centered. I get that the Pacheca Buddhas took the express train to personal Nirvana and didn't care about helping others. But the actual way that we get through these lesser vehicles to embody the Bodhisattva ideal seems elusive for me when reading the Lotus Sutra.

[13:16]

There are a lot of kind of Wizard of Oz special effects, you know, flower petals dropping, golden stupas, doors opening to wondrousness, beams of light coming out of people's faces, giant tongues appearing to tell the, you know, all of that stuff that I, when I was in love with practice, I was in love with that aspect. And I just accepted that. It just seemed wonderful. But for me, as I say, so I went back to thinking about the Lotus Sutra in terms of what was it that was eating at me, you know, from my history, from my understanding, what was going on? And so I just sort of, This is the cliff notes of the Lotus Sutra.

[14:17]

So in the beginning of the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni tells Shariputra, the wisdom of the Buddhas is profound and incalculable. Saravakas and Prachika Buddhas cannot achieve this wisdom. When Shariputra asked to hear the teaching, the Buddha said, but when Shariputra asked in response to this, to hear the teaching, The Buddha said, cease, cease. No need to speak. My dharma is subtle and hard to imagine. Those of overwhelming pride, if they hear it, shall surely neither revere it nor believe it. So it kind of sounds like, well, I have this secret gift. It saves all beings, and you're not ready for it. You know, shravakas, forget about. You guys... have your own experiences, this place is not for you. That's how I was feeling it.

[15:20]

But then a bit later, in the same chapter, he says the opposite. All of you knowing now that the Buddha, the teachers of the ages, in accord with what is peculiarly appropriate, have recourse to expedient devices, need have no more doubts or uncertainties. Your hearts shall give rise to great joy. Since you know that you yourselves shall become Buddha, needless to say, needless to say, I was confused. In a couple of paragraphs, he went from go away to everybody come and hear it. So that's too fast. Certainly too fast in a conversation with one of his disciples. So that didn't feel real. And then the rest of the sutra talks about how everyone can become awakened if a Buddha teaching them can discern the skillful means by which to convince them they're a Buddha.

[16:25]

Once they get that, that they may be a Buddha, they have hope and faith and they hear the true teaching. But they don't really say again, what is that effort? So I'm going to tell you something. But then what? Okay, so I can. Okay, we all can. But then what? Do we just come and sit? Could be. So I was struggling with all of this, not knowing how I, as a recovering Shravaka, could actually move along the path, really get it. Maybe I'm not really getting it. Maybe I'm one of these people who can't hear it. You know, what's going on? And then I remembered that I had ordered a book, which I'll just show you, some months ago and put it on the shelf and I noticed it.

[17:35]

One of these synchronicity things by Thich Nhat Hanh. called Opening the Heart of the Cosmos, Insights in the Losa Sutra. So I greedily, you can see all the little post-it notes. I greedily dove in and the rest is history. So I started to find, I started to get some of the seeds that I needed to begin to get past my resistance and begin to penetrate what would feel murky to me. I just couldn't see a way. The way was blocked. He begins by discussing the three vehicles again. The teaching of the Shravakayana, he says, are the four noble truths, the eightfold path, and the three Dharma seals, and they're taught to help people free themselves from delusion and suffering.

[18:36]

The fruit of this path is nirvana or extinction. But this is just what he says, but, a big but, but this is just the first part of liberation. And it's a skillful means for practice. So that first feeling of letting go, of disappearing in Zazen, that first one is just a warm up, right? That's what he's saying. It's just a warm up. You're not there. That's just extinction. And he says, true Nirvana is only possible in the here and now when we're able to get in touch with the ultimate dimension of reality. we do not have to extinguish ourselves in order to reach nirvana.

[19:41]

When we get in touch with our true nature, our ultimate dimension, we are freed from fears of existence and non-existence. We know samsara and nirvana are just distinctions in the realm of historical dimensions. And no such distinction exists in the ultimate dimension. And as a bodhisattva, assured of Buddhahood, we ride joyfully on the waves of birth and death, abiding fearlessly in samsara to help guide others to liberation. He continues in order to touch the ultimate dimension, we have to transcend the conventional notion of same and different coming and going inside and outside above and below before and after birth. Well, this sounds a little bit like the Lotus Sutra, right? We're back at, we're back at, Something happens. We get this experience of the ultimate and we're riding on the waves and we're back in that land that seems a little unreal.

[20:51]

So I had to read more. So this is where he kind of starts getting me, starts catching me. with some helpful seeds. He suggests that we first have to look deeply into the historical dimension, which is defined as our own experience over time or a historical record of the phenomenon over time. Even after we have an enlightenment experience, an experience of oneness or bliss, we cannot rest there. Well, I certainly learned that. Thich Nhat Hanh says the ultimate goal of our practice and studies is to be able to touch the true nature of reality with our mindfulness. So he repeats that being able to leave behind the world of historical dimension and enter the world and enter the ultimate dimension isn't easy.

[21:59]

Thank you very much. For a long time, we've been accustomed to perceiving reality only in terms of the process of history, in terms of time and space. So when we try to look into the true face of ultimate reality, it's very, very difficult for us. So that's really interesting because it is true, isn't it? When we have just what I was doing here today, I was looking at a mental state and I looked at history and I told myself the story of the history. So I had an understanding of, on a certain level, I had an understanding of why a suffering person comes and how they can get drawn to Shravaka practice and want to get rid of their suffering and maybe even do that. So that's the historical perspective. But he is saying, that's not it. That's not it, he says.

[23:02]

We have to transform our way of looking. What he means is that we have to go from the realm of birth and death to a realm of no birth and death to realize our Dharma body is indestructible. He then talks about a personal experience that he had when he was in Helmut in Vietnam. they would go do walking meditation outside and he came upon a beautiful gold leaf and he was enamored with it. You know, he had that experience of the beautiful gold leaf and then he felt himself unwilling to walk anymore. He had, he had a resistance to going on because there were all these beautiful leaves and he was going to disturb this idyllic picture of beautiful leaves by walking. And then he said, staring further, focusing my mindfulness on the leaf, seeing beyond this iteration of the leaf.

[24:15]

But looking into the ultimate dimension, we can see that the leaf is only pretending to be born, to exist for a while and to grow old and die. The teaching of interdependence and no self reveals to us the true unborn and undying nature of all phenomenon. And then he goes on to bring it closer to maybe home for us. He continues, you may think that your mother has passed away, but her passing was just a pretense. And one day when causes and conditions are sufficient, she will reappear in one form or another. If you have insight enough, you'll be able to recognize your mother in other forms. We need to look deeply into all those we love and recognize their true nature. When someone we love passes away, we feel great sorrow. And when we believe we lost a person, and then we believe we lost a person, but ultimately, nothing is lost.

[25:17]

That, this is starting to, this was starting to juggle my consciousness, because I remember after my dad died, he would periodically be in the back of my car when I was driving. That's one experience for me that, you know, and then when my sister died, I kept all of her clothes, even though she was five foot ten and whatever. I put them on and I had my sister. So that feels very real that My sister never died, and my mother never died, and my father never died. But knowing that and thinking about that and really getting that in the moment, that's the hard work. It's easy to say, let go of it. Your mother's not really dead. That's not the work, though. The work is being in that, right?

[26:20]

And not cutting off the feeling of the loss. Not dismissing the loss because that's, I would call that more Shravaka or maybe Pajajka Buddha. Not dismissing the loss as, oh, everything is impermanent. Going through that and noticing that and looking for your mother or looking for Sojin. Feeling Sojin, he's still here. That's the hard work because you have to go through the pain. And that felt more real to me than you know, flowers falling and golden Buddhas. That felt like it was opening something. So, and then he generalizes and says, when we look deeply enough into any phenomenon, a pebble, a drop of dew, a leaf, a cloud, we recognize the three treasure, the three Dharma seals of impermanence, no self and interdependence. In this way, we can discover true nature.

[27:22]

I think he's kind of instructing us that this study or this practice is always there everywhere. We don't have to be looking anywhere for it. It's everywhere. So all we have to do is go outside, walk in the garden, do anything really, wash the dishes mindfully, then the seals are there. right with us all the time, if we're mindful enough to be there. So he continues. We have to use mindfulness in order to touch the ultimate dimension. When we notice the yellow leaf underfoot walking meditation, it's an opportunity to look deeply in the nature of no coming, no going. When we breathe mindfully, we're in touch with our breath and body. and we already feel different from before.

[28:28]

Using mindfulness, everything appears more clearly. When we practice mindfulness in our daily activities, working, gardening, cooking, washing dishes, greeting guests, we are in touch with the phenomenal world very deeply, much more deeply than when we're not mindful. So, In Thich Nhat Hanh's teaching, this mindfulness is the central element of transformation. This mindfulness is the central element, the central teaching that he takes. And I'll say a little bit more because he has a chapter then on the light of mindfulness. He reminds us that when we become skillful in concentrating our minds on objects of on objects of minds or on our mind, we begin to recognize that we too exist in the ultimate dimension and can touch our own ultimate nature and spiritual power.

[29:32]

We can see that we have a source of light in our own consciousness and our own understanding increases. Thich Nhat Hanh goes on to see that in fact, the Buddha is none other than the light of mindfulness. That's pretty radical. The Buddha is nothing other than the light of mindfulness. Seems radical to me. And yet not. And yet, of course. Right? Of course. Lightness, awareness, seeing, seeing how it is. But that takes shining the light It takes focused and very dedicated, and it takes the mindfulness of every action.

[30:33]

It requires the mindfulness of every action. It's possible, just like saving all beings, but how is that? How is that? That's the work. I wanted to have the work. I want it out of it. What do I, okay, what? What? Okay, if I want to go, if I want to deepen, if I want to more embody the Bodhisattva ideal, if I wanted to really, really embody that, I really have to work hard. You know, there's, at least for me, maybe the rest of you don't. Maybe you can do it. that in the effort. So that's kind of... And the other analogy he looks, he talks about is the jewel in the Atthamsaka, Atthamsaka, yeah, Sutra, with the Indra's net, that there's this jewel and shines all around the world, and that kind of light, so that light

[31:48]

is not just our light, but our light is part of that universal intricate net of lighting. So we join that when we cultivate our mindfulness and turn our own, and allow our own light to come through. So, let me see here right now. Okay, very close. It's okay. So he goes on in talking about the never disparaging Buddha and says, not only did his mindfulness cover the infinity of the Buddha's lifespan, but that his sense organs had been purified and that he could see deeply and understand how the six sense organs produced the six kinds of consciousness. And there was no more confusion, no more delusion in his perception of things. Basically, he's describing the transformation of consciousness through mindfulness leading to self-awareness.

[32:54]

He's talking about using mindfulness to rewire our consciousness. Well, that's not a new thing. On the other hand, how often do we actually, how are we actually focused and aware, you know, Of course, we see and learn and we can see habitual behaviors, conditioned responses and so forth. But what do we do with those? Do we just say, oh, that's my visual response? Do we look at the historical dimension? Do we look at the coming and going? It's actually a complicated thing to rewire. And most people I know have a really hard time. You know, my husband cannot forgive his mother. He cannot forgive her. He goes back to when he's five years old and he heard her talking to somebody and she was having an affair with another man. That is his story of his mother. He knows it's a story.

[33:56]

He knows it's historical and he can't let go. And a lot of people have, that's a kind of dramatic one, right? But still, we all have those stories that justify us in our behavior. I do this because, because, because, and this is why, and I'm conditioned that way. oh, I understand now. It's like going to a psychiatrist or a psychologist and talking a lot and nothing changes. You just tell them all your stuff. They say yes, it's true. They may make some suggestions, but a lot of people go into analysis for years and come out the same, but they've told everything. They've talked about all their stuff, but that's all. So this is taking us to a place where understanding is beyond the historical dimension to the ultimate dimension. And in the ultimate dimension, when we recognize everybody's got a mother story, you know, everybody has some pain and trauma. I can work through mine.

[34:56]

I can let go of it. There's a way for me to do that, but it takes penetrating mindfulness, radical mindfulness, I call it. And it's something closely akin to radical acceptance. You radically look, you radically accept what you see without judgment. And then the healing can start. And then the maturation can start. So I could have talked more, but I won't. So my journey basically was one to find a way for my, you know, it was very personal for me in a way. But then universal in another. And I thought, and so I'm interested in people's own journeys through the Lotus Sutra and how they managed their way through the Lotus Sutra.

[35:56]

Did they actually work with it? Rather than an intellectual exercise, did they actually work with it? And what were issues people having? All right, so I will entertain questions. I have a question. Yes. You were speaking of Lotus Sutra. At several points we hear of the reluctance of the Buddha. Yes. And we hear that in his, this is what happened when he cut his enlightenment as well. He didn't, he was not, not planning to teach, because he didn't think what he thought could be understood. And there are other places in the story. So it's interesting, I wonder what you make of the Buddha having to do his own internal questioning and working, which is not how we usually depict him.

[37:08]

We don't usually depict him. And yeah, actually this is, This is almost the untold story, the backstory, that the Buddha, first of all, went alone. He gave out teachings very carefully, very slowly. And I think that in a way, the way that Thich Nhat Hanh talks about it is the recognition of, first of all, the recognition that you actually are aware enough and mindful enough to be able to see if that teaching is helpful in this, in this particular situation, that you're able to see the readiness of the people that you're talking to when you, when you actually really focus on somebody, you know, even when you're just having a conversation, they're either with you or not, you know, you can see people change when they become more or less receptive. Um, There's ways of intuiting that.

[38:09]

Sojin's big intuition thing really was that. He would look at you with piercing eyes and he'd see, you'd feel, and read that too, you know, and piercing. And he comes up with the answer to me, you know, maybe you should make up another story about that. That enlightenment experience. And it wasn't just that he was reluctant. or stingy. Yeah. You know, you get, you have this place in the Lotus, where very early on, where he says, this is the Lotus, and she presents it. Right. The beam of light zooms out. Zooms out of them, yeah. Yeah, and 5,000 Bodhisattvas get up and leave. Yeah. They come back later. Okay, Ross. Thank you, Jerry. With regard to the whole world as medicine, I was at Renso Inn, sleeping, and there was this red leaf on the ground. I was so enamored by it, I had to take it.

[39:12]

So I picked it up and put it in my suitcase and brought it home. And over the subsequent decades or so, it's still on my table, but it's not red anymore. But it's still beautiful, and it was a lesson in impermanence and change. Right? Yes. And so the tantalization and the grasping turned into an opening and an acceptance. That's how I understood the Sutra and the story. When you were talking about, you know, the page turned and all of a sudden, like, what happened? Like, it's one way and then it's all of a sudden another for the teaching. That's kind of like our life. If we're talking about it in that there's this whole lifetime that we're describing it just in a moment. So how do we understand your experience, say, at Green Gulch? with the luminescence coming out of people and the dew, and that you probably still see now, I'm assuming, the beauty of people and the darkness, but it's the same, but it's different. Can you say a little bit about the experience and how you have changed seeing these experiences and the process of that?

[40:20]

Well, in some ways, recognizing that heightened awareness that we can get when we're, especially when we're sitting for long periods of time, right? If you, if you go out of the Zendo, get your stuff, start making phone calls, looking at your phone, you miss the whole point. You know, it's like, it's like go out and look at the, look at a blade of grass. You got it. There, you know, there's a verb singing as, as, as Hosan said, you know, there's a, there's a new flower coming out. It's all around. So living with that period of my life, I had some sort of, I developed a sort of, oh, I forget, and then I remember. Oh, I forget, and then I remember. And I see myself distracting myself, not actually paying attention to who's there or to what's there.

[41:22]

And what about the luminescence coming from the phone? So it's not just flowers and pretty things that are poetic, but just the ordinariness of our life. Can we see the luminescence in that and see it as a thread in our practice? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, we, I mean, we carry that light every time we look, we do it right. We're radiating it. It's contagious. Mindfulness is contagious and we radiate it. Yeah. Judy, I'll get to you next. what comes up, because the Lotus Sutra is all about imagination, and it's like the image of the burning house, not so much when the parent is outside wondering how to get the kids out, but the experience of being in the burning house with those children. How do those two Wait a minute, give me the, I'm in Burning House with the kids, but what was the other place?

[42:29]

Well, the story talks about how the parent. What the parent did? Yeah, and the parent is getting them to come out of the house. My experience in these times, a lot, is that we are right there. In the Burning House, absolutely. And then what to do? what to do. If we're mindful and we have agency, there are skillful means that we can use to address a particular horror that we see of the many every day. But we can't do nothing. We can't do nothing. So whether we're helping other beings by teaching the Dharma or helping other beings by volunteering somewhere or whatever we're doing, we're doing something.

[43:34]

I don't think you have to burn up. You could burn up. I mean, metaphorically. But then what? I don't know. I guess to me that's a really important thing, especially around active hope. and letting go of outcome, that our stillness is wholehearted activity, is to not just focus on being out of the house, getting the kids out, but recognizing that the moment that preceded that is being in that house, and I hold that at the same time that I'm there also. Yes, absolutely. So you know what we can't get, I don't know how you can get away from it, but we're living in this great universal container of everything that possibly could happen and has happened over and over again.

[44:38]

We have that awareness, that too. That's part of the Lotus Sutra by saying, so what's new? I listened to a George Carlin documentary, I don't know, for those who are old enough, but recently. And one of his last gigs was, I don't know why we're so worried about the earth. The earth is not the problem. We are the problem. We think we're so important that we have control over the earth and whether the earth will survive or not. He said, we have no control. we can harm, we can do whatever we do and things will happen, but the earth is going to be around long after, long after we're gone. So we can't have an, what I'm saying is we can't really have an egocentric like I'm suffering in the middle of all this stuff. It's like suffering is all around me. Everyone is suffering. And all I can do is look for opportunity or be awake enough to find opportunity.

[45:42]

but make sure I'm awake enough and I'm mindful enough to find opportunity to create ease and healing, to do some medicine in this horrible time. Hiko. Thank you, Jerry. We also have a question in the chat when you're ready or you're online when you're... Okay. Thank you, Jerry. The idea of... owning our suffering, recognizing we're in a burning hell, wasn't part of my question, but it seems very important right now after Judy said it. My question is, you mentioned, for example, you saw your father in the back seat, or you recognize the being of Sojin in places by paying attention. And my question and my take on the Sutra really is that like the Buddha, Sojin was there before Sojin was born and Sojin is there after Sojin dies. And so when your father is in the back seat, could he not have been in the back seat before you were born?

[46:45]

And can you address the idea of being that seems to come out of it, which is, to me, the answer being yes. Yeah. How would you experience your father in the back seat before he was born? Well, it's just, I mean, it's a realization that there's an That there's a forever. That there's a forever. Whatever that is. We don't know it. It's beyond our knowing. But there's a forever coming and going. And sometimes we get visits. Sometimes we get visits if we're lucky. And that's a separate being that we get visits from? Or how would you describe that? It's probably a creation of my consciousness. It might be. Or it might be something... that triggered me some, you know, some memory of some, my father was very funny. You know, he, some funny thing I remember about my dad conjures him right up.

[47:47]

It might be just some association, some opening. But as I say, I would go, I went through my I finally gave away my sister's clothes. I had to get rid of them. But it was wonderful to just... I would put on a jacket and walk around, and then I would just invite her to join me walking around. It's like she's... Who knows what she is now? A bird? I don't know. Anyway, we'll do one more because I didn't notice whoever's on... Peter Overton. Hi, Jerry. Thank you. Just in terms of mindfulness practice, I'm wondering whether or not you would draw a distinction between the way we understand Shravaka practice in that regard and the way we understand what Thich Nhat Hanh is suggesting. And whether or not we just had different stories about all of that.

[48:53]

Yeah, I think Thich Nhat Hanh is talking about that Shravaka practice, which is fine, right? Which is looking for your own relief from your suffering. There's nothing wrong with Shravaka practice, except along the way. It gives us the strength to be able to become a Bodhisattva because we're not so suffering anymore. But... But he says that what's missing in Shravaka practice is the deeper mindfulness of recognizing the universal. So instead of the situational, you take it beyond this current situation and you take it to the realm of the universal. So that you may be seeing the same historically, you're seeing the same event. But if you see it in that larger context of the universal, that's a whole different way that you're going to... So where does that frame of reference come from? Ah, this is why I have all the post-it notes.

[49:59]

Because I can say what I think or what I feel. And then you can tell me how that feels for you. For me... It says that you have to keep, you can't rest on your laurels, so to speak. Just the way I couldn't rest on, Rev wouldn't let me rest on my understanding of a koan. You know, no, there's more. No, there's more to know. You know, I'm still curious. I'm still going to look. I'm going to look at that koan again. tomorrow, and it might be very different understanding. And it is sometimes, right? You hear it a million times and then all of a sudden, I never thought about it that way. So there's another level of understanding, which gives you the universal understanding of things are coming and going, meanings are coming and going, our understanding is coming and going.

[51:04]

That's how I hold it. So just to sort of respond, It seems like that level of investigation, that going beyond the initial investigation, is something which is sort of inherent in mindfulness practice. Mm-hmm. Just sort of paid attention. You know, it's like, that's why I called it radical mindfulness, because it really is demanding that we don't settle for the simplicity, you know, the simple first process. first couple of rounds. We know that, you know, we have so much conditioning the way we see things. How can you, you know, how can you really believe what you think? Don't believe what you think. That was it, wasn't it? Well, I know, I know. Bumper sticker on my car. Bumper sticker on your car. I knew there was something like that. Or what I have, you know, by my computer is a big blob, a big wooden block that says blah, blah, blah.

[52:08]

You know, we're having a conversation. What are we talking about? I mean, so I can't take it too seriously, which is why there's, you know, if you get to that point where you can't take it too seriously because you thought of 15 explanations for the thing, then you can just have it. You can just let it go. You know, it's lighter then. You're not stuck on something. It's just another thing. phenomenon.

[52:41]

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