An unsurpassed, penetrating, and perfect Dharma is rarely met with, even in a hundred thousand million Kalpas. Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good evening. Good evening. Thank you all for making it here on Halloween night. Good turnout. Yeah. A lot of people online, too. Yeah. Nice, nice. Well, they can all answer the door. Well, yeah, of course. Not everybody gets trick-or-treaters. Do you want me to start? Go ahead. So... I think I want to start and say something personal, which is, yeah, I was going to wear a costume and everything, but I'm not feeling it because I just found out this afternoon that a friend of ours and someone we've practiced with for a while at Tassajara, and also it's...

[01:28]

Leslie James and Keith Meyerhoff, who live in Jamesburg, his nephew, Nathan, someone we practice with a lot at Tassahara, well known to the community, took his own life a couple of days ago. And so we just got this news this afternoon. And frankly, I'm still processing it. I've spoken to Keith and Leslie, and then we spoke with Keith and Leslie. exchanged a few emails and texts with friends. Yeah, it's kind of ironic that tonight we're talking about sympathetic joy, so we'll see where this goes. But yeah, I just wanted to say that because I'm quite affected and I think a lot of you know, feel like Greg defaults to cheerfulness and sort of being upbeat.

[02:36]

I have that reputation, but not tonight. Can I say one thing? Say lots of things. I was reflecting as I was looking over my notes for class that I think in a way will be, we're talking about the practice of mudita of sympathetic joy. And it's not forced joy, but it's being open to joy when it presents itself and how it's practiced. So I'm feeling the wholesome effort of practice alive as we're talking about this. It's like in the midst of this, can I allow myself to be filled with the goodness of sympathetic joy and to share it with all of you, which is what I really wanna do this evening.

[03:37]

So in a way, I'm actually glad that we're here and with all of you and kind of, and thank you for holding this all with us. So, yeah. Greg. Nathan Meyerhoff. I don't know if anybody here knows Nathan. But he was at Tassajara on a regular basis. Nathan and I were on a crew together. Fire and light. Back when there were kerosene lanterns. He was responsible for splitting the big logs into. And so sometimes we worked on that together.

[04:41]

But we were just together, you know, every day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. During practice period in the winter, you know, some of you say, oh, it's cold. Tazara's got that reputation, you know, it's the bottom of the canyon, wintertime. It's cold, it's cold. Nathan would say, it's not Iowa cold. Thank you for that, Hannah. Thanks, Hannah. Okay. Yeah, so kind of occurred to me that maybe what I'm going to say next has got a little bit of bearing on this. It's a very famous Zen story. I like telling this story. Concerns our founder, I guess you would say, in China. Ninth century, the common era.

[05:44]

Great teacher, Dengshan Yangjie. When we chant the lineage of buddhas and ancestors as we did this morning. Tozan, ryokai, daiyosho, tozan. Where you get the to and soto. Saochan and dungchan. Sao, dong, or in Japanese, soto. Sotozan. Dungchan was probably not a cheerful Charlie. Reading the record of Dungshan, one gets the impression he's a pretty dour person. And the story I want to tell is about his first meeting with his teacher, the person who would become his teacher, who transmitted the Dharma to him, Yunyan.

[06:49]

Yunyan, When he first invited Dungsan into, you know, the Dokusan hut, first meeting, teacher and student, Dungsan says to him, being really forthright and transparent, doing his best to bring his whole self into the Dokusan room. not hiding, not trying to put on a good face. He says, well, I have karmic issues. No, issues is my word. I think he says, I have some karma to still work out. I always hear that as, well, I got some issues, which I think is great. Who doesn't? Who doesn't?

[07:49]

Yeah, I've still got some issues. And Jung-Yang says, well, are you joyful? Interesting question. Yeah, this is their first meeting. He says, are you joyful? Why? Why does he say that? Well, I think there's a good reason for that, which is to be found in the Avatamsaka Sutra, the Flower Ornament Scripture, very... important Mahayana Sutra, which I guarantee you they would both have been very familiar with. In the Avatamsaka Sutra, there's a chapter called the 10 stages, 10 stages of the Bodhisattva's career. What you got to do to be a Bodhisattva? First stage, foundational, is joy. Pramudita, surpassing joy. That's where you got to get to.

[08:52]

To begin. You know, just to set your foot on the path. Surpassing joy. So, again, Jungshan being really forward, you know, forward-facing and transparent and Not wanting to... Well, he does kind of skirt around it a little bit because he uses a double negative. He says, it would be untrue to say that I'm not joyful. He's trying. It would be untrue to say that I'm not joyful. It's like grasping a pearl in a pile of shit. Yeah.

[09:57]

Like grasping a pearl in a pile of poop. I meant to say poop. Sorry. So I really like that answer because A, it is just relentless honesty. Really great. B, that he understands, you know, and I think they both understand that you're not necessarily going to know what joy is or feels like. Or if you do, if you have a preconceived idea, that could be holding you back. Maybe finding a pearl in a pile of poop, that's going to have to do it.

[11:03]

Life is real. Life is serious. It's not all fun and games. The joy does arise, but we don't necessarily know what it's going to look like. 20th century Japanese teacher Uchiyama, Kosho Uchiyama Roshi, he said, speaking about joy, it's a deep abiding. You know? It's not... It's not something like, well, actually what he says is, it's not like a kid running home from school saying, I won the spelling bee! Yay! In fact, that kind of over-elation and giddiness can be near enemy of joy.

[12:10]

You know, can actually be a bit of a hindrance. Halloween. But it's central, you know. The great Vietnamese Zen teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, apparently, once said, if your practice isn't bringing you any joy, you should consider What practice you're doing. Maybe you should be doing some other practice. If it's not actually bringing you any joy. Which I think is a pretty radical statement. And it's worth thinking about. It's central. It's central to this practice. We don't really talk about it a lot in Zen.

[13:12]

But it is central. It's first step on the Bodhisattva's path. according to the Avatamsaka Sutra. Are you joyful yet? Yunnan asked Dumsha. Are you joyful yet? How's your practice? Are you joyful yet? So, the... The joy, one aspect of the joy that Greg's talking about is, you know, it's the joy that shows up on many of those lists in the Pali Canon about the factors of awakening and wholesome factors and all of this. And it's it's a fruit of practice. It arises due to our practice, due to our Zasana practice, actually.

[14:14]

Too close? Maybe too close to this. And it's, you know, in the midst of the poop of our karmic conditioning, that we actually can touch the pearl of awakening, opening, even for just a moment. The pearl is real. The poop is real. But can we touch that? And can we know that it's... there for ourselves can we experience that for ourselves and that before we do that before we have some experience of that some taste of that there's a there's a faith and a trust in what we haven't yet experienced but once we have a taste of that the faith and trust goes to a whole other level because we know it for ourselves we don't have to believe someone else's account we know that this practice bears fruit.

[15:18]

And this is definitely one of the fruits. So the topic for tonight is a particular form of joy, a particular aspect of joy, I should say, which is mudita, which is, can be translated as sympathetic joy or appreciative joy and... Empathetic joy. Inclusive joy. Inclusive joy. Shared joy. I've also read it as like not just joy, but rejoicing. To rejoice in another's joy. And I don't know if it was like in the Buddhist times specifically. Joy in the fact that another had an awakening experience. And. I think that would be easier if you'd also had some of your own, but maybe a stretch if you hadn't. Like, what's this guy doing?

[16:21]

Getting that thing that I want so bad and I'm working so hard at, you know, how to like open ourselves to that. But the practice of Mudita, because like all the Brahma Viharas, it's a practice. Like, how do we open ourselves to this? Is said to produce a mental state that is... calm, free, fearless, and it's actually open to moments of deep insight. You know, it's a very open and receptive state of being. And it's seen as one of the foundations for this openness to being fully present with others, just as much as compassion is. With compassion, we're open to the suffering of others, Mudita were open to their joy. But all kinds of joy, really. And it's considered, I love this, it's considered an antidote to conceit or selfishness.

[17:27]

The opposite of Mudita is envy or jealousy. That's pretty obvious. The far enemy. The far enemy. Classically. a kind of a negative response to another's joy or good fortune or happiness. And the near enemies get a little complicated because I think there can be several varieties of those. And I want to say, for the most part, I think we want to be happy for others. We kind of have that general intention. So I don't, I think that... If we're not actually feeling that, but we want to feel that for someone and we're expressing something to that effect, that that could be a sincere wish to try to be happy for others, even if we're not feeling it. You know, it's kind of a social thing to want to be supportive, not to just like someone's excited about something and we're like, oh, that's great. And that's hard for me to hear. You know, you might want to say that and you might not.

[18:33]

So there's all these kind of relational things in that. And that's not what I'm talking about as being the near enemy. That's just trying to navigate a moment. Well, I mean, you know, this is a conversation we had this morning. As far as what I get out of that, and it's like you're talking about how you're practicing. Yeah. Whereas, you know, classically, the near enemy is just hypocrisy. Oh, how nice for you. And hypocrisy is, I had to look it up because I had a reaction to Greg saying it's hypocrisy. And it's expressing something that you don't really think or feel. I'm like, oh, well, that actually fits. So if you're kind of running over, I mean, it has a yucky feeling, usually, somewhere in there. So that's the near enemy. Yeah. The far enemy is tricky too, because jealousy can be competitiveness.

[19:42]

It can foster competitiveness and aggression even. And all these practices, ideally, are the things that bring us together. And these, the far enemy, It's driving people apart. Jealousy, competition, separating us. And I think that a number of people in this culture have kind of complicated feelings about happiness or being happy in general, about deserving, either deserving questions about do I deserve. happy or like i'm supposed to be happy like everyone is doing great social media performance thing about how wonderful their lives are i mean it used to be just christmas letters you know where you and now it's like all the time right you know it's like oh i have to like everybody else's life is great and i have to put on this life you know and how far does that extend so

[21:03]

So there can be that. It's like, it's odd that joy can be complicated in this culture, but I think maybe in any culture, but yeah. But it's this receptivity to another's genuine joy. So sometimes we might have a complicated reaction to someone's expression of joy. And part of our complicated feelings are that they're performing joy in some way to look good or to cover hard feelings or whatever. But the practice of mudita is to go straight for the heart. You know, it's to really go for the experience of joy. So we'll get to that when we talk about the practice part. So. We have a lot more openness to joy for ourself and for others when we let go of expectations and of a sense of having a separate self.

[22:16]

You know, this is where Zazen is really supportive. It's like, oh, we're actually not separate. This person that I'm sitting with is not separate from me. I can feel compassion for their suffering and joy in there. Joy. And it really helps us. Again, when it's really kind of empathic joy and we can imagine what this is like for this person, however much we know about them. Oh, what this means to you, how this is for you. It really helps us appreciate other people as whole and complete beings in themselves that have their own interiority, just like we do. you know, that we're kind of imagining ourselves into their world. Oh. That's Sangha Joy. Sangha Joy. That's another one of our ancestors, Indian ancestor. So Yanandai Dayosho in India is Sangha Nandi, Sangha Joy.

[23:24]

What a great Dharma name. So this is from the sutras that the Buddha compared Mudita to an inner spring of infinite joy that is available to everyone at all times, regardless of circumstances. And he said, the more deeply one drinks of this spring, the more securely one becomes in one's own abundant happiness. The more bountiful it becomes to relish the joy of other people. So this is kind of like love. You know, it builds on itself. It grows on itself. And it's something that we can actually share with the world. And we can celebrate. We can offer joy, extend joy. And to rejoice is really connected to generosity, to dhanaparamita, to being able to give out. And it's similar in that way to compassion and goodwill.

[24:27]

Well, I think what I'm noticing tonight, and I don't know, I might be to blame because I'm sorry to start things off on such a somber note. But the last two classes, the thing that we were really loving a lot was how many interesting questions and comments were coming up as we were going along. So I hope we haven't done or said anything to suppress that joyful spirit of engagement and don't hold back. Thank you. Well, thank you both. I'm just reminded that I received a postcard.

[25:36]

I have a card. It's a little calligraphy. I know what it means. It says, beneath it all, there is a river of joy. And I have saved that card for that reason. Keep it in plain view all the time just to remind myself. Yeah. Thank you. Beneath it all. So it's foundational. Yeah. But you have to dig deep for it. You have to dig deep to that wellspring. Yeah. Yeah. That artesian fountain joy. But it's there. It's there. I sort of kept waiting for the right time to raise my hand.

[26:48]

I was like, wait a minute. I feel like in one of the past couple of times, it's like, yeah, we're getting to that. We're getting to that. Like, oh, I jumped the gun. But what comes to my mind is I think we have a pretty twisted sense of joy in this culture. You know, like getting stuff for ourselves, you know, whether it's material things or experiences like there's there's a selfish joy or something related to our concept of happiness. So what I'm thinking of are situations where I see people expressing this joy or happiness about getting something. And I observe it as being sort of misplaced joy. And I have a hard time celebrating with them. Like, oh, I'm getting this new car or something that was unnecessary.

[27:52]

It's like a luxury thing or something. And so I... I don't feel comfortable sort of joining in, in that joy, you know, and, and then I feel like, or am, or get caught out as a, called out as a kill joy, you know, because I'm not joining in with them, you know, it's very apparent because I don't want to be that hypocrite going, you know, Oh, great, great. You got a new car, you know, when you just bought another one last year. So, yeah, I was curious about that, you know, that, That sense of how, and to me, the way I look at these teachings is like, not always so. They're like guidelines and they're not hard and fast rules that every time someone is in a pleasant mood, I have to join in. There can be times when that's not appropriate. So, but that's what comes to my mind, you know, with family or friends who are very materialistic driven or whatnot.

[28:55]

So, yeah. I think definitely if someone is expressing joy or happiness in something that's harmful in some way, that would not be so appropriate to chime in with that, to just jump on with that. And I think it depends, as you were saying, I think it depends so much on the relationship that you have with that person because it's, I've actually experienced that it's quite possible To be fully present for someone's joy, even though what they're joyful about doesn't bring you joy or you have questions about it or, you know, whatever. Because you're just being with them. And I think it runs such a wide range. There may be people that you're close enough to to actually have a conversation, a real one. And other people that you're just, like, not there with.

[30:00]

And other people, it's like, like kids, you know, you can take pleasure in their joys, even though, you know, getting on the kickball team is not the be-all and end-all that they think it is in this moment. Things they won't even remember necessarily. It makes me think giving money to... you know, someone on the street who's wanting to buy drugs or, you know, booze or something. And I've heard both sides of the argument, you know, like, I don't want to support this. I can't support this addiction. And then also, this is what, who am I to decide what they do with this money? Do I give it to them or not, you know? And yeah, yeah, I think... I don't necessarily want to call them gray areas, but this complications seem to come out to me quite quickly when it comes to these sorts of things.

[31:07]

So nice to share and hear back from you about that. Thank you. Jeremiah and then Jim. Can I tell a story about sympathetic joy? Yes, please. So... You know, many of you know that I work in a prison and people get released every once in a while to become our neighbors. And sometimes when someone gets word that they're going to be released, they don't tell anybody because they're afraid someone's going to write something to custody about something they didn't do just in the hope that they don't get to leave, right? So there's a lot of people who keep their good news or their joy private because they know there's people who look at them and go, I'd be a little happier if you weren't quite so joyful.

[32:09]

So they don't tell anyone. But I just left a wheelchair basketball practice inside the facility. And there's a guy who's been incarcerated for 18 years. And the first 14 years of his incarceration, He was involved in all kinds of, you know, criminal activity behind the walls that allows people to get contraband through essentially porous walls. And, you know, I met him four years ago, and we started this wheelchair basketball team, and he's our best player. And his life has completely transformed. You know, now he's a peer support services worker. He does all this amazing mentorship stuff. And he's essentially become a new person. And the main community member that comes in to help this team is a former two-time Olympian who comes inside twice a week to teach wheelchair basketball.

[33:11]

And he has been gone for two weeks. And I was like, where's Joe? And then I talked to Joe last night and Joe's like, I'm so sorry I've been gone, but I'm coming out of retirement. And I'm going to join the Clippers. This is the former Olympian. I'm going to join the Clippers wheelchair basketball team. They offered me a roster spot. And I was like, well, hey, can you come tomorrow night? Because Levante's leaving on Sunday. And he's like, Levante's leaving? Well, then he's on the Clippers too. I'm like, what are you talking about, Joe? Do you think Levante's skills are anywhere near like the championship division? And he's like, look, he's going to get on that court. And things seem to be going so fast his head's going to be spinning. But I know that he can be a player in the championship division. And so he's worked out a tryout for Levante after he gets out next week. And it's been so hard for me to not say anything all day because I wanted Joe to tell him.

[34:16]

So at practice, Joe comes in and tells him, And the team is, there's about, you know, 15, 16 guys in the circle. And everyone was like, so, and including people who have life without the possibility of parole. So according to current policy, they're going to die in prison. And they're young men. And everyone was so happy for Levante. And it was just an unbelievably... great experience to see all these people who have like everyone on the team it's a character first skill second team everyone on the team has like walked through some type of threshold to become some type of change agent inside those walls you know and and they are all so so just amazingly pleased with um for and happy for levante who's gonna you know

[35:17]

wheel out of here and into the Clippers, you know, whatever they call that facility, and get a tryout with the team. So that was just like a wonderful experience, seeing everyone so happy for him. And I thought everyone was going to be in costume. I was going to. Sorry. So my costume is the light in the dark, you know. Thank you for that beautiful story. And it reminds me going back to Joe that it may look to us like. People's joy is about something superficial, like I got on a team or something, but we don't actually know what it means to them. You know, I got a new car might be a celebration of I'm not struggling with the level of poverty I grew up with.

[36:19]

Like I have agency in the world. I mean, and maybe it doesn't mean that to them. It's just like chalking up another car every year. But I think there's a possibility that it means deep things that we don't yet know about to people. And practice of generosity, which is intimately intertwined with the practices of the Brahma-Vyaras. In order to do these practices, it takes a generous heart. And I think one of the nicest things that you can give somebody is the benefit of a doubt. Yeah. Jim. I hope my thoughts somehow coherent i'm a few few strands of things i'd like to say the first is i think poop um there's joy in poop we can't live without pooping um and we're lucky we find pearls in it might be corn but you know but it's it's part of life and it's relieving and it means we've been fed and so we can find joy in poop if we look carefully

[37:41]

The other thing I want to address is that several people have talked about how do we identify joy or can we be joyful about other people's false joy or what appears to be their vanity or their social media, whatever. And I've struggled with that sometimes. And I think in the same way that we sometimes begin identifying meta with an infant or a pet or something. It really helps to watch cat videos. I love cat videos and their kittens are joyous and they make me feel joy. And it's without any real attachment. It just said, look at how happy that being is doing something that brings some joy. So I recommend cat videos as a practice. Yes. Baby and dogs are great, too. Yeah, those are good, too. And then you move on to children. Yeah.

[38:42]

Adults, eventually. Work your way up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's good advice. Yeah. Actually, in my opinion. Yeah. So, I mean, we're chuckling about it, but I just want to say. I consider that good advice, you know, start with something you can, especially if you're having a hard time. Yeah. Ross, there's somebody online. Yeah. Can go. Hi, I'm on. Okay, just a second. Hold on. Hold your again, both. You open up the class with the dialogue between. Dengshan and Yunyan. And to me that sounded it was unconditional.

[39:46]

Yunyan asked him, are you joyful? And that was left to for Dengshan to respond just in that moment in the Dokusan hut or whatever the venue was. And what we've been talking about is conditional. about our relationships with different people, different circumstances, trying to find can we be happy for another person's joy when we don't particularly believe in it or don't condone it or what have you. So could you say a little bit about this sort of unconditional joy, which what I'm hearing or feeling is kind of the basis of our practice, no matter what the circumstance. The closer I've come to thinking about where I've read something about it is Suzuki Roshi said, just being alive is enough. And it's just joy to be alive and the potential for all sorts of circumstances to happen and then an opportunity to respond perhaps to a circumstance and then have some activity and some engagement and some understanding, some challenge, all that, to become circumstantial around that.

[40:59]

But could you say a little bit about just that fundamental joy, which... I think it's at the heart of what this Brahma Bahara is getting at or pointing to. I hope we were talking about both these aspects that you're bringing it up in this way, conditional and unconditional. I mean, strictly speaking, it's all conditional. just to be alive is enough is predicated on you're alive. That's a condition, you know, but I think I understand what you're getting at Ross. And yeah, it's like this underground river that Peter was talking about that kept this postcard for so long because it's so meaningful.

[42:01]

It's important to remind ourselves of that, I think, over and over again. And it's always with us. It's our birthright. So as we've been saying over the course of this practice period, you know, there are things, these are qualities that we all have, and they can be cultivated. So it's a both-and kind of situation. You know, that's the non-dual Dharma. It's absolute and it's the relative. It's the absolute manifested to the relative. So, you know, it's pointing to God, Brahma. We don't talk about God much in Buddhism, but, you know, Brahma is, you know, the divine, the ultimate. God of love, you know, what are the qualities of that?

[43:03]

Yeah, so anyway. Yeah, I think it's just, it's both and, you know. Thank you. Yeah. Like absolute and relative. Thank you. Kenpo? Thank you. Yeah, I wanted to just, I really appreciated Linda putting it in perspective into the early Buddhist sangha and the experience of the monks, you know, being very aware of one another's training. For me, that really made me think about my own monastic experience. And like, especially in the koan curriculum that I was working in, like, I remember feeling very aware of the other people and the comparing mind was like right at hand constantly. Um, and I think that like, that can be very intense.

[44:08]

Like it can have kind of this powder keg effect where, where jealousy is, um, bubbles up very easily. But I do feel like hearing you talk about it, I can see that the point of that was kind of to get people to the next thing, which is mudita to get people to, to, you know, celebrating other people's successes. So I wanted to ask if either of you had a story, um, about, you know, your time at Tassajara, either training there or teaching there, um, where like these qualities came, came forth or where they were really challenging to access. Tassajara stories, huh? You know, one time somebody invited me to tea. Oh, that's nice. You know, get to know somebody a little better. Okay, so we're having tea. This is great.

[45:11]

But it turned out the person had an agenda. They wanted me to join in with them in bad-mouthing a third person who wasn't there. Yeah. Like, hey, let's talk about how crummy so-and-so is. Not exactly, but pretty much that's what was going on. It took me a while to figure out what's happening here. And then when I did, I don't know because I'm not so clever, but somehow Somehow, something got me to say I just started praising the third person's qualities. I just started praising them, you know. Well, let me tell you, what I really like about them is that they're... And it just completely diffused the whole thing. And I don't know that the person who invited me to tea was exactly joining in with me in praising this third person or...

[46:23]

really appreciating the good qualities. And, you know, I wasn't making them up either. They were good qualities. It was a good person. But at least, you know, they let go of wanting to slander. I don't know if that applies or not. But that's just what came to mind at the moment. Yeah, it feels relevant. Yeah. I guess what comes up for me is a time when it's just really easy to have sympathetic joy is when I'm talking to someone in Dokkasan and they're talking about good things that are going on in their practice. And it's just like the sympathetic joy just really wells up. And I think, yeah, because they've been transparent about whatever they're going through. And now this is going in a certain way. We're just kind of celebrating that together, which is so available and so lovely.

[47:27]

It comes out of that whole relationship. And I see another hand there. And I'm thinking it's time for a break after that. But let's have the other person online. Sue, hi. Hi. Can you hear me okay? Sure can. Oh, great. I'm so grateful for this conversation and I'm so grateful for Ross bringing up conditional and unconditional aspects of joy because it cleared up some, partly cleared up some confusion and bad feelings I've had and definitely recognize what's going on is jealousy and hurt feelings. And it's like, oh. I feel so much better now. That's what it was. I knew I was uncomfortable. But, and then I won't go into details except to say that my granddaughter is supposed to have bought her van or used van yesterday.

[48:42]

And I can't make her or, you know, tell me how it's going. And it feels awful. You know, I'm ready to be sympathetically joyful in a very conditioned way. Ross's comments really helped broaden my perspective. So I thank you all for that. I think another way to possibly think about what Ross was servicing is is is the is your joy dependent on these conditions does it require is it a prerequisite to have certain conditions in order for you to experience joy that's an interesting question which we're going to get into after the break five minutes ish okay thank you very much thank you New timing.

[50:01]

So we're gonna break up into dyads. So find someone close to you or not close to you, but, and like, please, or Rich, please pair them into twos. We've talked a lot about joy, many different aspects, many different qualities, many different ways of looking at it and thinking about it. So now, you know, Hopefully you've metabolized that a little bit and think about how is it in your life? You know, how does it show up? You may not know, you know, it might be very recognizable. It might not be. And yeah, what supports it and what hinders it in the process of, you know, whether or not you can cultivate joy. What's supporting that? What's hindering that?

[57:37]

Yeah. So you'll have two minutes each. Go. And I will indicate when two minutes are up. I'm going to play a bell in the middle. Okay. Online, you'll have to do it yourselves. Did you just swipe that bell?

[58:50]

Thank you. And that was it. I'm that person.

[60:17]

That must be the reason why. That must be right. Why would I see a whole lot of things about . [...] It's almost.

[61:26]

Yeah, just like. Thank you. Thank you.

[62:38]

Thank you. Thank you. Does anybody want to share anything that came up in your conversation?

[63:45]

Did you learn something new? Did you have any big insight? Did you have a new take or aspect of the practice of joy? Yeah, please. That's joyful, Ross. When you can feel joy for yourself, you're able to feel more sympathetic joy. You're able to recognize it in others and also appreciate it in others as well. Also on that, so I wasn't so joyful earlier in my life because I had a lot of suffering.

[64:53]

I wanted things that weren't being actualized. So I had sort of a fantasy dreamlike response to feel joyful even though it was a dream. And then it just kind of came out in our conversation with Julianne that living the dream, I never thought of it as a context of this dream life and fantasy just to kind of sustain oneself and then actually living it, living the dream, which is not exactly what I think that phrase is meant to mean, but tonight it feels fitting. Trick or treat, I'm not sure. A little of both. So I just met Jeff and he was talking about something that might be hard to find joy in, which is the ending of a significant relationship with a partner and talking about where, I mean, obviously it's difficult and hard, but where the joy

[66:14]

is in that, which is nice. It's interesting to talk about it from that angle. I told Paolo a story where on Saturday I was hunting for the sibling to, there's these two cargo bowls that go on the Sajiki altar. And one was missing. I was asked to run around, look for it, couldn't find it anywhere. I was looking for alternatives and hidden under a stack. I found the bowl. And I just, I found it. And Yoni was in the room and goes, good job. And that was it. We didn't, you know, there was no conversation about it. And he didn't, He didn't stop, look me in the eye and give me a hug. It wasn't like a big moment.

[67:14]

But it's really been on my mind this week with this subject of joy. And also, I think because the way I've been understanding Mudita is giving and receiving. Someone gives their joy, you receive the joy. And this kind of sharing aspect. And I think that I can be a complainer and critical person. And so I can complain about a lot of things at BCC, but I think this is where BCC stands out quite a bit in terms of joy and sympathetic joy. There's just a lot of joy, you know, like the highlight for most people of the year is Jukai, you know, watching the new Ordonese receive the precepts in a rope. There's a lot of joy on that day. Whenever, whenever someone announces, oh, I'm going to be sewing or something, it's like, oh, great.

[68:14]

You know, like the other person is almost always more enthusiastic about it than I am sometimes. And then, and then it, it kind of lifts me up a little bit, you know? So I think there's a lot of joy within this Sangha life. You know, I don't have a lot to compare it to. I've never been anywhere else, but that's just what I felt almost from day one is the amount of shared joy and the, the, sympathetic joy that i feel here and i think that that's that's maybe attractive i think that it's i think that it can be uh greatly missed in the in the wide world or in our culture um paulo mentioned about work and um didn't get too into details and stuff but yeah there's i did not feel a lot of joy at work when i prior to like health problems that have stopped me from working. So I'm interested in that, what work, our relationships with work and how that within this neoliberal capitalist society, how that affects our joy, you know, and how wonderful it is to have this place to receive it.

[69:32]

Yeah. I'm just marching, so I think. Should I respond? One more? Please go ahead, please. I'll just respond to that. I've been finding a ton of joy at work, specifically, in that it's, and the reason of that is because it's a very community-oriented job. Even though it is a neoliberal capitalist, we are, like, on VC money trying to make a profit. There is, like, the from the top down, they've tried to build a company where people care about each other. And that's like, it's important. Like, this is the first job I got where one of the, like, almost as long as the technical interview, was it like character background interview, or it was just like asking questions of like, describe a situation where you've had to deal with this kind of thing. And it really comes through and to the last two dates. So I worked for a big industrial loom company.

[70:39]

And today and tomorrow, we're basically swapping all of the... There's like 3,000 warps, like yarns that have to change over. And so this happens sometimes. Basically, like all the spools are running out, and you have to switch them. And it's just a lot of manual labor to switch 3,000 spools of yarn. And the company culture is that engineer, CEO, technician... everyone stops with the drink for those two days and just tie knots. And saying tomorrow are those days. And it's been really fun. Just tying knots and hanging out with people. Thank you. I think what comes up for me about that is integrity. You know, so there's joy in that. Just joy in what brings us together. Yeah. Yeah. Jeremiah, then Peter.

[71:41]

I'm going to touch back on a comment Ross made, and then maybe relate it to Jeff's comment, which is the way I heard Ross's comment, and maybe you could think, respond to this, maybe Ross or maybe you, anyone, is like unconditional joy. I think of that as like we all have an opportunity to begin again by just bringing it and touch that. Put our mind and connect it to our body. And that's just a moment. And we can do it again. And again, and maybe, you know, there's a way to begin again with that breath without like all the regret or acute sense of loss or whatever it is that you carry, you know, and then that can be like just the metaphor for what you can do moment after moment.

[73:01]

You know, and so it can be just a breath, but it could also be a life. And I'm wondering if that's unconditional joy, you know, just touching that river or beginning again and, and, you know, touching that, the gift of what it actually is to be alive. I think that's, I think that's exactly right. Because when we let go of our preoccupations or our worries or our thoughts or whatever is hindering there, then we open to joy, to the pearl, to this moment, to this person. However it's manifesting in that moment, then we're actually open and available to, you know, reality with a capital R. You know, it's like, and it... Even if it's a pretty wild ride, that can also be beautiful.

[74:05]

I'm not sure where this fits into the conversation we're having right now, but I got a call, I guess it was Monday morning, a friend of mine who I just love her dearly and appreciate her so much. known her for 25 years. She's been married for 28. She's got two kids. One of them is high special needs teenager who she spends most of her life with. And called me up and said her husband told her the night before that he wants to open their relationship. And she's just crumbled, like just completely devastated, confused, bewildered. And I happened to have had nothing on my calendar for Monday afternoon. So I just said, I have nothing on my calendar this afternoon. How about if I drive out to San Leandro and spend some time with you?

[75:12]

She was like, oh, you don't want to come that far. I've got to be home by 3.30. I said, I'll be done by 1. I can text you. Where do you want to meet? And she said, you know what? It's probably a good idea. So we met at the lovely San Leandro. Marina, which if you haven't been there, is a lovely spot. And I just sat with her for an hour, maybe an hour and 15 minutes and just listened to her. Now, she wasn't experiencing any joy in the moment at all, but it was a very joyful experience for me to be able to just sit there for her at a time when I knew she was better off with somebody than me. by herself and that she knows and trusts me enough to actually talk about what she was thinking, what she was feeling, et cetera. And I could just say, yeah, great. Yeah. Give her a little pat on the back. And then she had to go off and get her kid, but made my day, you know, and it's, so it's not exactly sympathetic joy, but it certainly was a joyful experience for me to be able to do that.

[76:26]

Thank you. Thank you. Maybe that's the connection between joy and... Maybe so. Or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Or the fruit of your practice is experiencing that joy. That, you know, the Sambhogakaya, the bliss body, you know, I sent that email out today because we were joking about Suzuki Roshi saying candy is the most important food. I thought it was apropos to Halloween. He was actually talking about that, the reward body. It's something that's difficult to talk about, but it is the rewards of your practice. It is this feeling of bliss. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very closely connected. Yeah.

[77:30]

And it can also be closely connected with all kinds of other things like grief. In fact, we were grateful that Jerry in her Wayseeking Mind talk mentioned New Orleans. And, you know, Linda and I have been traveling monks. for past year-ish. And we spent a lot of time in the South, in the Gulf Coast. And we spent time in New Orleans. We lived in the Treme, you know, the oldest black neighborhood in the country. And there are signs of, I mean, literal signs, you know, historical markers and placards all over that city. that speak to unspeakable horrors, terrible, terrible things.

[78:32]

We want to talk about inhumanity, you know, man's inhumanity to man, just the crazy, terrible things that people have done, the unbelievable suffering. And in more recent times, you know, there's Katrina crushing poverty and you name it. And everybody thinks about New Orleans as, Jazz and Mardi Gras and Downtown Super Sunday. And it's true. It's all true. It's really like that. It's so joyful. It's the kind of place where you hear a brass band and it's like, what's going on? It's the second line. Where? It's just a block away. Let's go join. We'll march with them. You know, people do that all the time. And death is ever present. They're just right there, right there, side by side, you know. Not to get too into it, though.

[79:36]

And then did you want to talk about Montgomery, Alabama? Yeah. So we went to Montgomery where the legacy sites are, the lynching memorial and the museum and now the sculpture garden. And we went for Juneteenth. We were invited to go there for Juneteenth, which was amazing. And what a celebration. It was really powerful. So much joy. And so many speakers. And it was like, I think there were like 1,300 people there. And it was just, wow, it was huge. And We'd been to the museum and the memorial site previously a couple of years ago. But the sculpture garden had just opened. And you go through this whole beautiful sculpture garden that's very near to the museum. Montgomery is surprisingly small, quite a compact little town.

[80:43]

And it's right on the Alabama River, the sculpture garden. And you can take a... a little boat down it, which is where the slave boats went. And it looks, I'm sure, exactly like it because the stuff is very lush there. And it's just grown right down to the river. And then you walk up and go through this wind, through this sculpture garden, which is beautiful. And it's kind of going through the whole history of slavery. And then at the very end, you come to the memorial itself. And it's in the form of this open book. So you're kind of walking into it Like, it's like, what, 40 feet high, I think? Four stories. Four stories high and about 150 feet long. It's really massive. And it's clearly like this open book. And it's covered with names, front and back, of all the last names of formerly enslaved people from the 1870 census.

[81:47]

the first time they were counted in that way with the names that they had chosen for themselves. So you're coming up on this, and I didn't quite know that piece of it. I'm coming up on this as like National Memorial Monument. Monument to Freedom. That was what I was getting to. So I didn't realize, so I just knew it as like the national monument, like other national monuments, very monumental, literally. And because we've been going through all the suffering of slavery in many powerful forms, on one side, the left side of the book, it said like national monument. And then I was kind of expecting it to be still in the suffering side. And it said to freedom in letters about this high. And it just hit me. It's like, oh, This is the celebration.

[82:49]

We made it. We survived. And we survived whole enough. It's like so much in the museum is about the intense suffering of families being torn apart. And just really highlighting how people didn't shut down. They didn't choose not to marry or not to have children. They kept their hearts open. They did everything they could to protect their families. And a lot of people after the end of the Civil War chose to keep the names of the enslavers because they knew that was how their family could find them again later if they'd been separated. So, you know, it has this many layers of complexity, but just it's like, oh, we're... The monument is not to the suffering. The monument is to freedom.

[83:51]

And it's like, wow. And just feeling all these people through centuries, like holding that up and keeping going. I'm like, yeah, okay. This is like so much bigger than I am. It really opened my heart and helped me. And one thing Greg and I have talked a lot about, together is that in both, you know, New Orleans and Montgomery, we had such an experience of joy as resistance. Like, you're not going to get my spirit. You're not going to take this away from me. So when there's an opportunity to celebrate or be joyful or have a full belly and a plate of some good food, you know, I'm going to enjoy that completely with friends and family. And just wholeheartedly. So joy as resistance and joy as a choice that's made over and over and over again. And like Greg was saying, the suffering and the joy are just, they're not separate at all.

[85:03]

It's not like one X's out the other. They just exist side by side. And I think... One of the things that it seems to me supports that is that death and suffering is actually so close and it's undeniable. So you can't try to cover it up. It's there. So you're all there in it together, and then you can keep your heart open for both ways. Anything you wanted to add? I thought I could... I had to talk about the Northside Skull and Bones gang, but we just don't have the time. Should I do a little guided meditation instruction? Oh, that would be so great. Just take us out with a nice guided meditation. So this is actually kind of guided instruction, guided practice instruction, but you can just sit and take it in. And this is from the Buddha and from Buddhagosa.

[86:06]

a fifth-century scholar who wrote the Sudhimaga, or the Path of Perfection. So, unlike metta practice, in beginning mudita practice, the suggestion is that you start with a cheerful person, or a cat. But it says with a cheerful person that you know and a good friend or someone who's dear to you. And you really contemplate this cheerfulness with appreciation. That's what this person or this being is like. and how you appreciate them, and just let it in, and actually let it fill you.

[87:12]

It's not that you're doing anything to create this or force it, but you're bringing to mind, bringing into your awareness, a manifestation of cheerfulness and joy. And just letting it, allowing it to fill you. And because Zen is a body practice, you can see what you notice. about that experience in your body, in the quality of your energy or of your awareness?

[88:19]

Where in your body? How it is? Does it feel warm or cooling? tingly or soothing, settled, buoyant. Just what's your experience? And with practice, this can become a kind of a touchstone. In the same way that bowing to and away from your seat and settling into zazen posture can actually help just in itself to settle body and mind.

[89:26]

When the experience of sympathetic joy is strong, you can then direct it toward a dearly loved person, a neutral person, and a difficult person, as in metta practice. And, or, the Buddha described the form of practice of mudita meditation very similar to how he described radiating metta. He said, here, O monks, a disciple lets his mind pervade one quarter of the world with thoughts of unselfish joy, and so the second, and so the third, and so the fourth quarter, and thus the whole wide world above the

[90:39]

below, around, everywhere, and equally. She continues to pervade with a heart of unselfish joy, abundant, grown great, measureless, without hostility or ill will. Okay. Thank you very much, everybody. So I want to say one thing to end, which is that someone once said, I'm not going to give you homework. I'm going to give you home play. And I like that a lot. So for your home play, you might consider how you would like to practice mudita this week. where might you do it and what might it look like um yeah okay thanks for coming everybody happy halloween they are numberless i vow to awaken with them delusions are inexhaustible i vow to end them

[92:09]

Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Beings are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gaze are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Good night. Thank you all. Hi, everybody. I'll Zoom. Thank you, Blake. Thank you. Thank you.

[93:10]

Thank you. Bye. Happy Halloween.

[93:14]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_88.98