So welcome, everyone. I'm going to go into gallery view so I can see you all, or some of you, I guess, not all of you. I haven't given a talk in our virtual Zendo before. So this is my first time and if you have any trouble hearing me or anything, let me know. And I want to you know, thank the many people who have made this kind of online Zendo possible since really right after the Zendo was shut down. I know it's been a lot of work and attention to that and commitment really to kind of making a schedule and, you know, a lot of activities that, you know, have kind of continued our practice during this time. With that said, I also say that I, you know, miss the years of sitting with other people, the sort of physical support of sitting with other people.

[01:11]

I was visiting the Redwood State Park up in Humboldt County this summer and, you know, something like 98% of the redwoods have been logged already, but the ones that are left are left in these groves that were preserved of, you know, maybe 100 trees or 200 trees. And, you know, they tell you on the little printout that the trees are, they grow from right under the bark, so they grow outward from right under the bark, and that wood is a little bit softer But the wood at the center of the tree, and these are, of course, enormous, unimaginably big trees, gets harder and harder right at the center and, you know, kind of supports that incredible, straight, upright growth. And they also send their roots out, you know, a long way.

[02:15]

They're not deep roots at all, but they're rather shallow roots. and they connect to other trees and they actually communicate and nurture each other. They, you know, nurture each other with, you know, water and sustenance. And, you know, when I walked in there, I really did think of the Zendo, you know, the kind of sitting maybe during a session when there's 30 or 40 people around you sitting upright and, you know, kind of touching their center, their heartwood, and also supporting each other, supporting me and supporting each other in the many ways that we do at the Zendo. So I really miss that actually, but appreciate that I had many years of doing it. And also I appreciate this because people can join who don't, live near the Berkley Zone Center, and that's a great thing.

[03:24]

I will say that, to begin with, that the last six months have been, you know, very challenging for many of us and for many reasons, starting, of course, with the pandemic and sort of that's kind of the overarching framework But, you know, including the killing of George Floyd and the kind of activism and awareness that is, you know, kind of come from that. And, you know, recent fires that have been so. You know, devastating to property and people and animals and trees and the blanket of smoke that we all contended with if we didn't actually contend with fire. You know, that really brought climate change right here, right now. And, you know, part of that has also been the political situation, which is pretty intense, I think, for a lot of us.

[04:35]

And, you know, the death of Ruth Bader Ginsburg recently, which, you know, and all that that kind of portends And then, you know, there've been a lot of changes at the Berkley Zen Center too. And, you know, our lives have been disrupted, you know, in different ways and different kind of intensity, but I think it's been a challenging time, a disrupted time for everyone. Really nobody has been untouched by it. And I have been very appreciative of our practice during this time. you know, maybe particularly our Zazen practice, but, you know, our practice as a whole. And so I am going to talk about our practice today and also about letting go, which is our practice, and also about letting go of letting go. On the morning that we in the Bay Area woke up to those very orange, dark skies, my niece posted a picture on Instagram of that intense orange and a comment.

[06:00]

9.20 AM, every fiber of my being says it's time to get in my car and drive. escape. But there's nowhere to escape to. And, you know, I had that thought too. And, and I know other people did. And I know other people are thinking of escaping. You know, if the election doesn't go the way they want moving to Canada, I mean, it's a kind of a natural, almost instinctual kind of fight or flight response to you know, what feels like a threatening situation. But I would say, you know, our practice, our Zazen practice is kind of the opposite of that. It's a turning toward. And that can be challenging. But, you know, that's what we're kind of about, about allowing things to be the way they are.

[07:07]

um you know whether we like them or not and again and again and um there's a little bit of relief in that sometimes to just turn and face what's so um when we sit down on our cushion or our bench or a chair um we are allowing, you know, what's so, you know, in our physical sensations and our emotions and our thoughts, our mental constructions. And, um, you know, our practice is to let things be, you know, when I sat down on that smoky morning after closing all my windows and, um,

[08:10]

turning on my air purifier. You know, I felt a lot of things in my body that I didn't like. You know, I had a headache and my eyes were itching and my throat was sore. And, you know, my lungs felt sort of, you know, graspy or raspy. And just generally, I felt sort of armored, like, you know, I was kind of protecting myself. And so when I sat down, I just, you know, took a breath, you know, which I realized I hadn't really been breathing. And I, you know, kind of settled. And I, you know, I began to sort of really realize you know, what was kind of going on in my body and sort of soften to it and, and, you know, let what was there be there.

[09:18]

And, you know, I, I didn't try to control it and push it away. And, you know, I did my little sort of personal Zazen instruction and, you know, and then I stopped trying to control what I couldn't control, basically. And, you know, when I softened in that way with my body, you know, my emotions, our emotions can start to, you know, to kind of appear also, and things that we, again, want to avoid. You know, for me that morning, there was, you know, some real fear, almost panic, And, you know, kind of maybe some, you know, just uncertainty about what was going to come next.

[10:26]

And I think in my experience, that's quite common that, you know, when my body softens a little bit, we do feel our emotions. basically in our body. And, you know, things come up that we have maybe tried to avoid. And, you know, we've hopefully found ourselves a safe space where, you know, the Zendo feels that way to me, we have our teachers and we have, you know, our monitor and, you know, the people who feed us and everything's You know, it feels like a very safe and supportive space. And in our homes, you know, I hope that, you know, we've been able to find a quiet and private space. I have to mention here that the other day after Zazen, I think it was Ben who said that he, his place to sit, the place that he can get away is in his bathroom.

[11:35]

And I thought that was quite a devoted practice to be sitting in his bathroom. But when we find that space and we kind of soften to what so we can, you know, feel the emotions that maybe we've been avoiding or pushing away and they can be surprising. And they can be Unsettling. For a long time, I had a feeling that I couldn't name. It was like subtle and sort of a discomfort or a dis-ease. And, you know, after a while, I realized that the word that I would use for it would be homesick. I felt homesick. You know, even though I was sitting in my home, you know, it was just totally made no sense at all. But that's, that was my feeling. And, you know, a lot of our feelings we're not proud of. You know, we have feelings of jealousy and pettiness and anger and, you know, things that we sort of wish weren't who we were.

[12:39]

But, you know, if we allow them to kind of be there, they tend to move through us and move on and not be there all the time. And, of course, then there's our thoughts. And again, you know, we sit with those, whatever they are. You know, I want to get out of here. Climate change is really here. You know, whatever, whatever, whatever. And, you know, we talk about that in a number of different ways about letting those come and go. Um, Utiyama Roshi has his wonderful metaphor of, you know, opening the hand of thought, um, of just opening your hand and not holding on to it. Um, Rev Anderson talks about making your thoughts gifts, giving them away.

[13:42]

Uh, You know, Dogen, of course, talks about think not thinking. And when I first started sitting, my mind was very, very active. I had two little children. I was running my dance company. My father had just passed away. My mother, I felt, needed a lot of attention. couldn't imagine what people were talking about, really, when I first sat down. But, you know, this is a practice and I kept sitting and, you know, I began to be more aware of, you know, my posture and my breath and my thoughts. And at a certain point, I realized that I actually did know what people were talking about when they said, you know, letting your thoughts go.

[14:43]

And I also thought that most people have had that experience, you know, when you're playing a box sonata, or when you're skiing down a steep slope, or when you're, you know, doing a carpentry project that you have to measure everything really carefully. You know, those are times when, you know, you really can't think about anything else. And if you do, you kind of mess up. And, you know, my experience that I remembered was when I was dancing and I was living in New York and I was performing there. And we would rehearse our dances a lot so that, you know, we really had them in our bodies. We kind of knew the movement in our bones. But then when we performed, we would perform in different places than we rehearsed, and the circumstances would be different. You know, the size of the stage would be different, and the lighting would be different, and the, you know, floor might be more slippery.

[15:52]

And of course, the audience was there, which changed everything. So, you know, you can kind of trust your body in a certain way. But everything else, you know, you had to be really alert. You had to be present. And so, you know, the lights would come on, and you would step onto the stage. And then, you know, you would be really focused on kind of navigating this situation. And, you know, maybe you needed to take three extra steps to make it to your, the person you were going to do the next thing with. Or you need to be particularly aware where the edge of the stage was. Just leap off it. So my mother, who lived in California, decided to come to one of my performances. But, and that was at a time when people didn't fly across the country, at least in my family, that much. And so it was sort of a real special thing that she came. But she didn't want to make me nervous, I guess.

[16:56]

So she and my husband planned this without telling me. So I wouldn't, you know, be involved in it. And so when I started the performance somewhere early on, I looked out into the audience and I saw my mother there. And I, you know, thought to myself, what is she doing here? How did she get here? But, you know, I knew I couldn't think about that. I had to just pay attention to what I was doing. So that was a really clear memory for me. And I realized, oh, that's what they're talking about, letting go of a thought like that. And I think probably everybody has had that experience when they really can't do what they're doing if they don't focus on it. And so when Sojin gave Zazen instruction the other day, which I think is online if you didn't

[18:00]

see it or hear it. He talked about, you know, bringing our focus back to our zazen instruction, our, you know, our posture, our mudra, and our breath. And, you know, I think of that as kind of making, of deciding, of choosing, to make that our focus, the way I made my dancing a focus, or somebody would make painting a painting a focus, you know, that we make that choice. It's not as kind of, it doesn't, it's not urgent in that same way, but we kind of make it urgent in that way, or maybe that's too strong a word, but we make it our focus so that when we let go of our thoughts, you know, we bring our, awareness back to basically our bodies and our breath.

[19:03]

And for me still to this day, that's a potent moment when I can, you know, let go of a thought, even a long thought, you know, climate change is here. You know, I thought it wouldn't be here so soon. What am I gonna, you know, just a whole, whatever at point I realized that I've kind of been running after my thoughts or my thoughts have been dragging me off and I let go of them and I bring myself back to the present moment. You know, I feel like that moment is powerful for me and it makes me kind of separate in some way from, you know, you know, from our thoughts and our sort of stories about ourselves and the way we have kind of, you know, created our self image or our illusory or small self, and really the way we've constructed our whole world.

[20:12]

You know, so sometimes when I'm sitting, I'll feel like I'm just, like there's some release, some letting go of the way that I've put the world together. It's like I'm deconstructing my world. And I feel liberated, I feel free to be, you know, kind of part of something bigger, really. So when that happens, and sometimes, you know, when I've been sitting a long session, or, you know, you've been sitting a long session, there can come a moment when you know, really, we are allowing everything to be there. And, you know, it can be very quiet. And again, it sort of reminds me of being in the Redwoods. And, you know, all these girls are right along Highway 101, and the cars are

[21:20]

you know, still going up and down, but something about the Redwoods make it very hushed. And sometimes I feel like my thoughts are like, you know, I can sorta, I sorta know they're there, but you know, it's very quiet. And, you know, I really can feel or one can feel that, you know, there's an opening, a container for all of this, a big mind that can sort of allow all the things we like, all the things we grasp, all the things we want, all the things we don't want to be there as they are. Suzuki Roshi says it well, of course. The true purpose is to see things as they are, to observe things as they are, and to let everything go as it goes. This is to put everything under control in its widest sense.

[22:25]

Zen practice is to open up our small mind. So sometimes when you have an experience, even a little one of letting go, but even also a big one of letting go, you know, of sort of feeling connected to everything or some sense of boundlessness or boundarylessness, when everything's kind of in flow, there's a tendency to wanna hold onto that, to not wanna let that go. And I think that's maybe a common experience. There is a calmness and a relief in this kind of allowing And, you know, it's tempting to want to stay there. And, you know, in our Zen literature from, you know, the 10th, 11th century, there's a koan that addresses this.

[23:38]

And it's a koan that I think many of you are very familiar with. It's both in the Book of Serenity and also in the Mumonkan. And it's, I'm gonna use a kind of short version from the Mumenkan. This is case 46, step forward from the top of the pole. And the koan is a little dialogue that involves Sekiso, who was an 11th century, more in the Rinzai tradition, I think, Zen teacher, but he quotes a teacher from the 9th century named Chang Sha. So Master Sekiso said, from the top of a pole 100 feet high, how do you step forward? And an ancient master, that's Chang Sha, also said that one sitting at the top of a pole

[24:50]

100 feet high, even if he has attained it, has not yet been truly enlightened. He must step forward from the top of the pole 100 feet high and manifest his whole body in the 10 directions. So, you know, this is about letting go of everything, of our little experiences, our enlightenment experiences, our awakenings that we want to hold on to. Very specifically, I think this talks about, you know, a moment of really seeing the world of oneness, of the absolute. And, you know, having that experience and wanting to cling to it. And, you know, this comes up kind of frequently in our in our literature, in our tradition.

[25:51]

Ross talked about it in his class on the five ranks. And it also comes up in the 10 ox herding pictures. And the 10 ox herding pictures are also probably well-known to many of you, but they're a series of of ink drawings and with some kind of captions and commentary that depict kind of a path toward awakening, you know, sort of following that path. And it uses a young Oxforder and, you know, sort of trying to find and sort of tame an ox as a kind of metaphor for, you know, following our path and finding our awakening. And I'm not going to talk about all of it, but I will just talk about the last three pictures.

[26:59]

And in the eighth picture, you know, it kind of expresses enlightenment. It's just a circle, which is completely empty and, you know, depicts, you know, oneness, complete, absolute oneness. You know, you might assume or think that that was the last picture, but it's not. And the next picture is a picture in the version that I have of just sort of nature or the world. So leaves and trees and so on. And it's that one in the caption is returning to the origin, back to the source. And, you know, it's expressed as somebody coming back into the world who's willing to kind of live with, you know, duality with the ups and downs and, you know, changes that we're all living with, you know, and letting go of that, you know, sort of experience of oneness.

[28:03]

And the last picture is called, it's a picture of a, you know, old monk sort of walking down a road and, And it's called entering the city with bliss bestowing hands. And, you know, it depicts a man living, you know, with, you know, the poor in a city and, you know, living their life with them really. And so, you know, that's kind of the, you know, a way, again, of looking at this koan of stepping off the 100 foot pole that, you know, we have the kind of commitment really to seeing the world the way it is, to seeing the emptiness, the oneness of everything.

[29:07]

But we also have our vow, you know, to save all beings. and to listen to the cries of the world. And I think, you know, right now, you know, is kind of a moment when, you know, this kind of question of like, what are we doing and what should we be doing, you know, is a little bit addressed by this koan. And, you know, so, you know, when we step off the pole you know, back into the world, um, you know, we are dealing with, you know, the, you know, the kind of many aspects of the, of, you know, the, you know, physical world and the emotional world and everything. And, you know, we have to make choices. You know, we have our commitment to generosity and kindness and

[30:08]

you know, patience and helpfulness. And also, you know, at this point, you know, I think a lot of us are involved in, you know, making decisions about, you know, our political action and, you know, standing up for what matters to us in this, you know, tumultuous time. So we have to make a lot of choices and really, you know, ponder, you know, what we can do and what we're able to do. what's safe to do. And, you know, we have to let go of oneness and really engage with that and engage with, you know, our current situation that we're all living in. You know, one question that I have a lot myself is, you know, what do we bring from that, from our Sansan experience to our action in the world? um you know what's the you know what's the the crossover um you know if we are sitting you know if we spend 40 minutes a day or an hour a day you know sitting um you know what's the what carries over so to speak does anything

[31:31]

You know, I like to think it does. I like to think in some way, and sometimes I do feel this, that, you know, like when I'm dancing, like I have my zazen in my bones, you know, that it's, it's really comes with me, that, that realization, that understanding, that sort of soft mind that, you know, allows for me not to be right and allows for my opinions to just be my opinions and allows for other people you know, to have a voice in my world and to know that, you know, the way that I see the world is just my construction of the world, my own way of seeing it. You know, I guess I think of the election session a little bit. You know, we, I've been participating and many of you have, And, you know, we gather for like four and a half hours. And, you know, for part of that time, we meditate.

[32:35]

We don't write letters. And, you know, one might wonder, you know, why we don't just sit there for four and a half hours and write letters? Why we spend time, you know, meditating? And, you know, I don't have your answer, but maybe my answer might be something like, you know, we only can do what we can do. And sometimes that's very hard for me, you know, that I want more impact or more control or more, you know, kind of, you know, like making more of a difference than I do. And, you know, And so, you know, writing my 20 letters, you know, doesn't feel like enough. But, you know, I do it. And I do it partly because, you know, I sit down and I realize that I'm doing it with, you know, the whole country. It's so many people in this country. 200 people came to the last election session, but I know many people who are working on letter writing and texting and phoning.

[33:43]

It makes me realize my connection and, you know, my small part that I play in all of this. I'm going to end with a quote about this koan, actually, though, stepping from the 100 foot pole by Akin Roshi. Let us be grateful because Shang Xia is our teacher of Zen. in this age of grave danger to the earth and its music, art, animals, and everything else. He is urging that we move off our seats and transform our attitudes and our systems. If everything is one, then it is also vital that we show that fact in our conduct. Worlds in the 10 directions are indeed my total body and yours. And we, we neglect this primordial truth to our peril.

[34:48]

So I'm going to stop there. And, you know, take your comments and ideas and questions. And so I will, I will be the blue hand person and Blake will, if you just raise your hand or you send a question to the chat box, he'll handle that. Okay, so the first person is Ross Blum. You could unmute. Oh, you did. Hi, Ellen. Hi. Thank you so much for your talk. I was really taken by your description of rehearsing in one space and then performing in another and having to adjust. to that, and we talk about our practice being a body practice, and then I had the thought that we sit zazen on a cushion in a zendo, or at home, and we're rehearsing in a way.

[35:57]

And so my question is, when we get off the cushion, as Eiken Roshi encouraged us, we go into the marketplace, and we are now in front of an audience. How do you integrate what you've been rehearsing in your body with your interactions with people and the cognitive side of our practice, the mind practice. Well, Ross, I have been thinking about that. And, you know, hopefully I'm not performing, although, you know, that's a habit that dies hard a little bit. Uh, you know, I really think, you know, it is kind of, um, taking really the experience of softening and allowing and, um, and showing up, I guess, with, with, you know, that kind of experience, you know, really as an experience.

[37:08]

so that I don't tighten up and react to a point of view that I don't agree with. And I don't shy away from someone who is in some way offensive to me or who makes me feel badly about myself. you know, is critical of me. And of course I do all these things. I do react and I do get upset, but, you know, I think I bring some more kind of, you know, the word I would use is a kind of, well, like I said, sometimes I feel like when I'm dancing, but a little bit like I have this experience in my bones, like it's in the marrow of my bones. It sounds like having a soft, pliable body to adjust to circumstance, in your mind you kind of maintain a self-pliableness so you can adjust to, as you said earlier in your talk, to turn and face what's so.

[38:23]

So even if you have a heckler in your audience, you turn and face and you continue to dance and communicate and connect, it sounds like. Yeah, one would hope so, yeah. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you. I have you. Oh, there's a line. I don't know. Oh, Joel. Let's see. Joel? Hello. Rondi and Charlie, do you have a question to ask? I do. OK, go for it. Ellen, when you were at the Avenue of the Giants in Humboldt County, Did you think about the journey the redwood trees have taken from Asia to North America?

[39:26]

No, I didn't. That's where they come from. They come from China and they crossed the Aleutian chain and came down to a more friendly climb of the Pacific coast where it's damp and and foggy, and this process took eons. No, I like that, Charlie. That's great. I didn't know that. It's sort of like Dharma. Yeah. Coming from China. Yeah, that's really good. I like that a lot. Thank you. So Joel. Hey. Hi, Ellen. Thanks for beautiful talk. Can you hear me? Thank you, John. Blake, is there a way that I can see people? Or can you maybe unspotlight me so I can see them?

[40:28]

It's hard. OK, is that better, Ellen? No, but I can hear you at least. OK. Well, we'll keep going. Maybe it'll become possible. Thanks for a beautiful talk. I was really struck by your discussion briefly of the response, like if the election goes badly and everything falls apart here, about staying or leaving. I was very struck because I've been mainly thinking about leaving the country or escaping. And it really brought it back. So it gives me a lot to think about, realizing that that's where my mind goes. And so, you know, thinking about,

[41:32]

the Nazis and some Germans left and some Germans stayed. And which ones were really facing it? Probably both of them. But anyway, so I don't know if I have a question, but if you can enlarge on that. I think you do have a question and it's something that I sort of neglected to mention and I and I'm happy to mention it, which is, you know, I didn't run outside and, you know, enjoy the smoke. You know, I did close all my windows and, you know, turn on my air purifier. I mean, you know, this isn't about like, you know, putting your finger on the stove and letting it stay there. You know, this is, you know, you know, it's not about that. And, you know, and, you know, I don't want to get into the Nazis, but, you know. What's appropriate action? It's appropriate action in circumstances. But go on, yeah. Well, no, I don't really have more to say, but I just think, you know, that, you know, kind of instinct to run is, you know, is one that is worth looking at.

[42:44]

Sure. Well, thank you. But it opened that up for me as, oh, wow, this is something to practice with. Thank you. Thank you. Alan. Yes, good morning, and thank you so much for the talk. A couple of things I'll try to be succinct. One is just to let you and people know that one of the primary people who was an advocate and sort of really in the mechanism of creating that Redwood Park was Bill Duval, who was a student of Meili's. Really? Yes, and he was until he died in Arcata, a key member of the Arcata Zen group. So there's a lineage there in an interesting way. The other thing that occurred to me is that on that day, that Wednesday, when the skies were orange, I guess I had an instinct.

[43:58]

I had an instinct to go and really see it. So we drove to the before we sequestered ourselves in our house, we drove to the marina and and captured it so they could really see the impact of what was going on. And then it was interesting, because we went back exactly a week later and took a walk. And it was such a jarringly different reality. Yeah, I was jarred, actually, that it went away. Yeah, me too. And finally, just picking up on what Ross was saying, at least in my experience, and I wanted to check with you, this is actually a question, my experience of rehearsing is different than my experience of performing. Rehearsing, I try not, I feel like I don't want it to be perfect. You know, I just want kind of the details to be sketched out because if it's too perfect, then the performance won't be up to it.

[45:09]

However, That's never the attitude that I think we should cultivate towards Zazen or towards our activities in the world. You know, it's like. You don't want it to be sloppy. You want it to be on the mark, so there's a difference. There may be a difference between the artistic endeavor of rehearsing and the actual activity of, say, practice and Zen. I wonder what you think about that. You know, I think I learned pretty early on that I didn't want my performances to be perfect. You know, that really, you know, that really, that was a dangerous goal for me. And they never were. So, you know, I think it was, you know, I didn't really have that concern, so to speak. And I don't think I know what to say about practice. You know, I think, you know, I've only recently really come to see it as practicing something, you know, and yeah, I can't really.

[46:22]

Well, let me make a distinction. Perfect is probably the wrong word. Wholehearted. Oh, you want your performances to be wholehearted. You want and that's at least I do. And I want my practice to be wholehearted with nothing held back. Huh, no, I don't think with dancing I was quite like that. OK, that's fine. I mean, partly because I think often. You know, especially when I was dancing for other people, that I was always performing for the person who was, you know, the choreographer. You know, so there was always some element of wanting to do it really well. But Ellen, I wanted to say something to you. you know, this kind of making this talk has really made me appreciate, you know, the work that you've done in the world a lot. So thank you so much. I really appreciate the work that and there's so many people in this sangha who are also doing this work.

[47:27]

We're seeing this during this election period and we have a lot more work to do and it's and we're all Many of us are frightened and you know, I think reasonably, but thank you very much. Susan Marvin. Can you hear me? I can, and I can see you. Good morning, Ellen. Thank you for this really thoughtful talk. Towards the end of your talk, you were You spoke about the cries of the world and responding to the cries of the world, and you had some questions. I'm just paraphrasing, but something like, what do I do, or what should I do, or what's enough? And here's where I went. I had this image of us in the Zendo, as you described earlier.

[48:27]

like during a session where everybody's got a particular job. And that question of what's enough doesn't really come up. It's like we're all working together to get something done. And each part is so, so important. It doesn't matter if it's a so-called small job or a large job. And I was just wondering if you could say more about sort of how you take that spirit out into the world with that question of what is enough and how to respond to the cries of the world? You know, I think more than anything right now, I'm feeling like, you know, it's a very personal thing, you know, that really, you know, We're all aware of what's going on, but, you know, I mean, I'll just use this example. I have a friend, and it's not Andrea, I have another friend who takes care of foster dogs.

[49:34]

And, you know, I would, that's her contribution to the world. I would never do that. You know, that doesn't seem interesting to me in any way or vital. But, you know, my concerns are the ones that call me, you know, the animals and the trees and the people who've been burned in these wildfires. And, you know, so I think it's very individual. You know, we don't, I mean, we're not Avalokiteshvara. We don't even hear everything, much less can we do everything. But we're called, you know, to each of us, I think, to do certain things. Or, you know, maybe we have, you know, somebody who's doing something like, you know, my husband's church you know, feeds homeless people, you know, once a week, you know, maybe, you know, that just makes that available, you know? Yeah, I think that's, thank you. That's a good example. As you speak, it strikes me that the other part of our practice that's so important to bring into that is not to compare ourselves to one another, that each part is really vital and important and enough as it is.

[50:46]

Yeah, I think that's really hard right now. It's hard for me, but I think that's a really good point. Thank you. Thanks, Ellen. Blake, do you have someone or should we go on to Ken? I'd like to know, there's a question from Blake that is, How, when you're choosing the lead dancer, do you not get caught up on stereotypes and maybe preferences that don't have anything to do with the actual dancer's ability? Well, I think the first thing I would say about that, in my experience, which was kind of not the traditional ballet kind of dance, you know, was that, you know, there was a fair amount of openness to all people compared to other, you know, other situations, just in my experience.

[51:59]

And, you know, ability was kind of key. You know, people who were really good at what they did, you know, tended to be very, I mean, you wanted to work with them. You just wanted that. I mean, you know, it was just like, it was gold, you know, it was so important. And, you know, I think kind of contemporary modern dance did not appeal to everyone for various cultural reasons. You know, I really, in my experience, generally felt that, not in ballet, I'm not talking about ballet, but in the kind of small modern dance world that I was in, you know, if you were good at what you did, you got to do it. So. Thank you very much. Maybe time for one more question. Okay. Ken? Yes.

[53:04]

Thank you, Ellen, for a fine talk. I'd like to get back to the idea of performance, which I think has some mixed qualities to it. Usually, if we think I'm concentrating on my performance, that could be a kind of egotistical thing, like I want to appear good. I don't want to blow this thing now that I'm out in public. But another aspect of performance is, I think, quite the contrary of that. It's concern for everybody else. And when I'm head server, I sometimes am sort of talking about the way that the servers present themselves as they enter the Zendo. I know what you mean. I do. I sort of jokingly, and people always chuckle about it, I say this is like you're performing out there because, look, everybody's looking at you for a few minutes.

[54:13]

And so if you, it's not just that you should be calm and so on, but you should also appear calm. Because if you look nervous, like, oh, should I do this, or did the other, something like this, everybody else is getting nervous, because they're following your nervousness, and they're thinking, oh, well, he noticed this, or did he do this, whereas if you look like everything's happening as it's supposed to, or even if it isn't, then it's no big deal, then that calms everybody down also. So, kind of like it's looking at this performance thing is not just like how do I come off, but it's like how do I create or contribute to the ambience of the whole scene there. And, that's like, I think that has to do with, it doesn't, wouldn't be just serving, but that could do

[55:18]

an election session or something else, that you're not just concerned with your own thing, but how the overall thing appears. Because that appearance affects people profoundly. You know, if you knock on somebody's door and talk about something, how you appear is going to have some effect in how you communicate. And, you know, I think that's a really interesting point. And actually, you've thought it out a little more than I have. I definitely know what you mean about, you know, serving being sort of like performance. It always made me a little uncomfortable, actually, that, you know, you know, I made that connection. But you're right. And I think everything else you said is right, too. I actually really agree with that. So that's a great point. Thank you.

[56:09]

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