I love to taste the truth and love to talk it through. Yesterday I was using Koum Ejo's talk on the samadhi of radiant light. And in this same book on meditation practices in Zen, there's also a talk by Master Chih-Nu, the Korean Master Chih-Nu, who lived about the same time as Dogen, a little older than Dogen.

[01:21]

I think he died when Dogen was 12. But he's the founder of the Chogye school at Korean Zen. I don't know what that is, but... What is it? Well, it's unifying that whole variety of practices including Zen and other forms of Buddhist practice and so on, further. So, all the Buddhists in Korea are from the Chogye world. I see. Yeah. So... He has some interesting things to say which talk about, he calls it, the secrets for cultivating the mind. And he says, if you want to avoid going around in circles, nothing compares to seeking Buddhahood. That's what they say, right?

[02:25]

And if you want to seek Buddhahood, Buddha is mind. Need mind be sought afar or at a distance? It is not apart from the body. The material body is temporal, having birth and death. The real mind is like space, unending and unchanging. Thus it is said, when the physical body decays and dissolves back into fire and air, one thing remains aware encompassing the universe. What arises in my mind when I read that is there's this huge ocean of water and we take this water and put it into jars we call it a jar of water, but if you think about it, if you see this big ocean as the infinite ocean of buddha nature and each one of these jars is like a shape, has a unique shape and is filled with buddha nature, is a container that gives buddha

[03:47]

is the shape of each one of these containers. So in a sense you can say each one of us is a container and gives buddha nature a certain shape, a certain form, but when the jar is cracked Buddha nature is still there, but the container has changed, or the container no longer has that shape, but the true nature of the container or what's in the container is just the ocean, just the Buddha nature, just what's called the light. So, any kind of So we call this, when the container is shaped, it's called birth.

[05:08]

And when it disintegrates, it's called death. But actually, it's simply flowing. There is no such thing. really is, in a real sense, is birth to death, because everything is just flowing. So the container has two ends. One is called birth, the other is called death. That's a book of nature. It's constant. So this is unfortunately People today have been confused for a long time. They do not know that their own mind is the real Buddha. They do not know that their own essence is the real Dharma. Wishing to seek the Dharma, they attribute it to remote ages. Wishing to seek Buddhahood, they do not observe their own mind."

[06:10]

He says, if you say there is Buddha outside of mind and there is Dharma outside of essence and want to seek the way of Buddhahood while clinging tightly to these feelings, Even if you spent ages burning your body, branding your arms, breaking your bones and taking out the marrow, wounding yourself and copying scriptures in your own blood, people did that. Standing for long periods of time without sitting down, eating only once a day, reading the whole canon and cultivating various austere practices, it will only be like steaming sand to produce cooked rice. It will only increase your own fatigue. Just know that your own mind, just know your own mind and you will grasp countless teachings and infinite subtle meanings without even seeking. That is why the World Honored One said, observing all sentient beings I see that they are fully endowed with the knowledge and virtues of Buddhas.

[07:11]

He also said, all living beings and all sorts of illusory events are all born in the completely awake subtle mind of those who realize suchness. So, someone asks him a question and he says, If Buddha nature is presently in our bodies, it is not apart from ordinary people, then why do we not perceive Buddha nature now? Why don't we see it? That's an interesting question. If Buddha nature is pervasive in all of our bodies and minds, why do we not see it?

[08:20]

If you try to see it, you become self-conscious. And when you're self-conscious, it obscures your vision. So, rather than looking for something that obscures your vision, just be that thing itself. Just let it be what you are. So he says, it is in your body, but you do not perceive it yourself. At all times, you know when you are hungry. You know when you are thirsty. You know when you are cold. You know when you are hot. Sometimes you get angry. Sometimes you're joyful. Ultimately, what is it that does all of this? Now then, the material body is a compound of four elements, earth, water, fire, and air. Their substance is insentient. How can they recognize or cognize?

[09:29]

That which can perceive and cognize has to be your Buddha nature." So he quotes Master Lin Ji or Rinzai. This is why Lin Ji said, the four gross elements cannot expound the teaching or listen to the teaching. Space cannot expound the teaching or listen to the teaching. Only the solitary light clearly before you, that which has no form, can expound the teaching or listen to the teaching. What he called that which has no form is the stamp of the truth of all Buddhas. That's the Dharmakaya. And it is your original mind. So the Buddha nature is present in your body. What need is there to seek outside? If you not believe it, let me mention some stories of how ancient sages entered the way to enable you to clear up your doubts. You should be one with clear understanding of truth.

[10:32]

In ancient times, a king asked a Buddhist saint, what is Buddhahood? The saint said, seeing essence is Buddhahood. The king said, do you see essence? The saint said, I see the essence of enlightenment." The king asked, where is essence? The saint said, essence is in function. If you want to see Buddha nature, if you want to experience what is Buddha nature, understand what is Buddha nature, you have to see it in form. the Heart Sutra says, form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. If you try to see emptiness as emptiness, even though emptiness, we also say emptiness is emptiness and form is form, but if you try to see the emptiness, you can't, there's nothing to grasp.

[11:45]

We have to see the form as emptiness. That's why we live in the realm of form. This is the world of form, but all forms are empty. Right now we're looking at emptiness even though we feel that we're looking at forms. All the forms you see are the forms of emptiness. The containers of emptiness, the myriad containers of emptiness. Not that emptiness is something that's contained in the form. The form itself is emptiness. All conditioned things are empty in their own nature. They have no inherent existence. The forms are the forms of emptiness. That's how we cognize emptiness.

[12:48]

is by paying attention to form. So to try and understand emptiness by eliminating form is impossible. So the king asked, what function is this that is not now visible? The saint said, it is not functioning, it is just that you yourself don't see it. The king asked, does it exist in me? The saint said, whenever you act, that is it. When you are inactive, the essence is again hard to see. The king asked, when it is to be employed, and how many places does it appear? The saint said, when it appears, there must be eight places. The king said, please explain these eight manifestations.

[13:50]

The saint said, in the womb it is called the embryo. Here he says body, but I think embryo is better. In society it is called the person. When it grows up it's called the person. In the eyes it is called seeing. In the ears it is called hearing. In the nose it distinguishes sense. In the tongue it talks. In the hands it grabs and holds. In the feet it walks and runs. It manifests all over, including everything. Countless worlds are collected in a single atom. Perceptives know this is the Buddha nature, the essence of enlightenment. Those who do not know, they call it the soul. But Buddha nature is not the soul. That's a different teaching. On hearing this, the mind of the king was open to understanding. You know, Banke, if you've ever read Banke's collected anecdotes, he's always saying one thing all the time, he's saying, just know your unborn Buddha mind.

[15:17]

That's all you have to do is know your unborn Buddha mind." And so I said, well, how do I do that? He said, do you hear that dog barking? What is it that hears the dog barking? Trace that sound to its essence. What is it that says, it says, I hear the dog barking, and what is the sound of the dog barking that is heard? And what hears it? You say, well, my ear hears it. But the ear doesn't really hear. The mind hears. The ear is simply a passageway, a vibration that allows the mind to cognize through that vibration. But what is the mind? The mind is the nature. of nature is behind everything.

[16:23]

So, he talks about sudden and gradual. This is one of his main points. He said, there are many avenues of entry into the way, but essentially they all fall within the two categories of sudden enlightenment and gradual practice. Even though we speak of sudden enlightenment and immediate practice, this is how those of the very highest faculties and potential gain entry. And if you look into their past, they have already practiced gradual cultivation based on sudden enlightenment for many lifetimes, whatever that means. so that in the present life they realize enlightenment immediately upon hearing the truth, suddenly finished all at once. In reality these people are also included in the category of those who are first enlightened and then practice."

[17:32]

So he's saying that it's not practice that leads to ... although practice leads to enlightenment, the practice after enlightenment is what's most important. So these two aspects, sudden and gradual, are the guidelines followed by all sages. Sages, since time immemorial, have all first awakened and then cultivated practice, attaining experiential proof based on practice. So-called spiritual powers and miracles are manifested by the gradual cultivation of practice based on enlightenment. It is not that they appear immediately upon enlightenment. In other words, these are not something that comes up with your enlightenment experience, so-called. Scripture says, �The abstract principle is understood all of a sudden. Concrete matters are cleared up by means of this understanding.

[18:35]

They are not cleared away all at once, but worked through in an orderly manner. So, factual spiritual powers and miracles cannot be accomplished in one day. They appear after gradual cultivation, and what is more, from the point of view of those who have arrived, concrete supernatural powers are still apparitional affairs and they are minor things to sages. Even if they manifest, it's not right to want to use them." So, this is byproducts of realization, and anyone who's been practicing for any period It's not like magical powers but there are certain sensory things that are released within your consciousness. So, confused and ignorant people today imagine that countless subtle functions or spiritual powers and miracles will immediately appear upon an instantaneous awakening.

[19:43]

If you entertain this understanding, this means that you do not know what comes first and what comes afterward, and cannot distinguish the root from the branches. If you try to seek enlightenment without knowing what comes first and what follows afterward, what is basic and what is derivative is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Since you do not know expedient technique, you imagine you are fishing a sheer precipice. It's like, who could be enlightened? Who could possibly be enlightened? And thus you lose interest. Many are those who cut off their potential for enlightenment in this way. Since they themselves have not attained enlightenment, they do not believe that others have realized any enlightenment. Seeing those without spiritual powers they become contentious and make the sages and saints out to be cheaters and deceivers. Isn't this pitiful?

[20:44]

As for gradual practice having suddenly realized fundamental essence, no difference from Buddha, beginningless mental habits are hard to get rid of all at once." So even if you have some realization, you still have your habits. I remember Suzuki Roshi saying, even when you're enlightened, when you pass the ice cream store, you still want an ice cream cone. Therefore, one cultivates practice based on enlightenment, gradually cultivating the attainment to perfection, nurturing the embryo of sagehood to maturity. Eventually, after a long time, one becomes a sage, therefore it is called gradual practice. It is like an infant which has all the normal faculties at birth but is yet undeveloped. Only with the passage of years does it become an adult."

[22:01]

So, you know, we don't necessarily recognize our enlightenment experience. It may be just very small. We do have Kensho experiences all the time and without even realizing it, or we may realize it, and it may be a big deal or it may not be a big deal. If we try to make a big deal out of it, that's a kind of cover. As soon as that happens, you should let it go. No, it's realizing, one good Tantra experience, realizing who you really are. Realizing, oh I'm just this bag of bones.

[23:05]

On the other hand, realizing, oh this bag of bones is wonderful Buddha nature, let's take care of it. So I would say it's true humility, when you realize true humility, which means knowing exactly who you are, without fooling yourself, without thinking more of yourself than you are, without thinking less of yourself than you are. That's a wonderful Kensho experience. has nothing to do with magical powers or lightning and thunder. Some people experience things in that way, but those are just dramatic examples. Guishan says, it's like walking in a fog, after a while you feel your clothes and they're damp.

[24:14]

So, it doesn't have to be dramatic, it can be just actually Oh, here I am, here it is, oh. Of course, well, yeah. Why didn't I see that before? Oh yeah, what's in front of me? I just see it in a different way. And then, that's the germ of practice. And when you read a book about Zen, you say, gee, I'd like to practice that. Where is that Zen center? That's called your Kensho experience. Of course, that's what brings you to practice. And that's the germ of practice. That's the germ of enlightenment. And then, through practice, you cultivate gradually, if you want to use the term gradual, you keep cultivating the germ of enlightenment, which is at the center. It's called inspiration.

[25:20]

And sometimes we lose it. But then you feel, oh God, what is this I'm doing anyway? What is all this stuff, sitting down, bowing? What are these people doing? You get self-conscious. When you get self-conscious, then you start doubting. Then you have to re-inspire yourself. But what was that point at which I decided that I really wanted to do this? Oh yeah, I remember now. That should inspire you. You're returning to your original enlightenment. And then you continue to practice. So we say, even though you may have discouragement, you may leave, you can't really stop practicing once you start. even though you think you may.

[26:24]

Really, because you've touched something very real and you always come back to that even though you stray off or get discouraged. You keep coming back to the real. To follow up on Mary's question, The Buddha has alleged to have said, I and all beings are the future. When I hear that, it sounds like he's made this leap and he sees the interconnectedness of all being. How is that different than, oh, I'm just this bag of bones and being humble and feeling maybe confident and okay about just being a bag of bones? There's no space between. It's only... you create a space between.

[27:27]

So you can't really say anything about how to take that leap from the realization that all this is a bag of bones and I and all beings are interconnected? Yeah, because we're all bags of bones. And we've realized that I and all beings are a bag of bones. with Buddha nature. You see, because when I say bag of bones, you feel that's a kind of put-down. It's not an inspiring thing. No, I have that experience quite often. And I feel okay with that, that, yeah, I'm just this bag of bones that's sick as well, It's not like radiosity of I want to be so-and-so.

[28:28]

But while there's a sub of this in that realization, I'm curious about that, you know, the lightning and thunder and that sort of sense of interconnectedness that I am connected to that bag of bones over there. Or that bag of bones over there is nothing other than me. Well, you've already said it. When I say bag of bones, this is a very common, actually, way of describing in Zen our body, and in Buddhism even more so. In Hinayana Buddhism it's like you go to the cemetery and that's where you contemplate what you are. soon I will be here, soon this bag of bones will be bleaching out in the sun and so forth.

[29:35]

So, that's just to bring you to reality, cold reality. I think Ross's question, I'm not sure I understand the answer. I mean, I think it's something Buddhism is often accused of, it's called nihilism.

[30:37]

And I know lots of people who think life has no meaning and we're just a bag of bones and we're going along and we'll die and it doesn't matter, and that's not our practice. But when I said that, I also said something else. I also said that this bag of bones is also Buddha nature and should be taken care of as something to be treasured, something to be respected as an expression of Buddha nature. I said that as well. But did you hear that too? I did. I did. It's still the... I think in our practice, when we realize that we are just

[31:41]

I and all beings are Chittagata. Right. Yeah, he said we're all just a bag of bones, and maybe that would have been easier. But that's like, it's like there's this aspiration and reach that we have. I think we're all, that's why we're here. We want to realize what the Buddha realized. And while it's apocryphal as far as the story and what he said, it has a different sort of tenor and timbre as we're talking about it today. That's my trouble. Right. Well, mostly, yes. I think it's important to remember that we are all pure light, and that's what Dzogzhen is about, and that's what our practice is about. Not so much aspiring to something as realizing what we already have. Well, I'll ask her.

[33:20]

The fact that the only thing that we really have is our buddhanature, which is always being expressed in this bag of poems. I would never forget when I first went to Tassajara, the first practice period at Tassajara, I was away for three months in the winter, it's cold, and you don't see anybody outside of this sangha. And I went out, we drove out, and walking down the street I saw people's faces as a bag of bones. I mean, it was startling, really startling. Well, I was just thinking, when you look at the story of Buddha's life, Shakyamuni Buddha's life, which he doesn't know how to... First he saw a sick person, and then he saw an old person, and then he saw a dead person.

[35:18]

He'd never seen anything like that before. So he realized that we were a bag of bones. And then he saw a wise person. So there was some distance between the realization that we were a bag of bones and the realization that we all happened in nature. And then you might say, well that is when he got his enlightenment, when he saw the sage. That's right, so there's enlightenment then, enlightenment then. Suzuki Roshi says we should have an enlightenment experience on each moment and actually that's what our practice is, to have an enlightened but we don't realize it. Mary?

[36:19]

I just think that what I would say his enlightenment experience was that night when he sat through the night and he made the synthesis and he saw the truth of dependent colorizing and he saw that this is this way because that is that way. So we're a bag of bones because we're born in nature. No, they're not. Yes. But his initial enlightenment experience, well you can say when he decided to leave, that was the initial enlightenment experience, and then he practiced for a long time and then he decided, I mean, so he had gradual practice after his first enlightenment experience. He had another enlightenment experience when he realized that asceticism was not the way, and then he had another enlightenment experience when he sat under the tree, and then I'm sure he just kept having more and more enlightenment experiences.

[37:26]

Could you say that maybe the, I don't know, first, but a major one would be the first one he saw, the sick person, and something said, wait, what? What is that? but they're major and minor. Some are big, some are small, but we all have that, we all have these enlightenment experiences, and if you think about it, I'm sure that you all have had some. But you say, oh, and then I just really fucked up, or then I really did this.

[38:33]

And there can be, just for that split second, you're happy. You didn't plan it that way. Well, that may or may not be, but it certainly can be, openings, opening experiences.

[39:59]

We make a big deal out of it, but it doesn't have to be such a big deal. those opening experiences kind of keeps us going, they keep opening us up. And often people say, well I'm very confused, and they feel like being confused is bad, but actually being confused is okay, because out of confusion comes that kind of experience. And when we view all the are recorded, they come out of that kind of like confusion, you know, or this big ball of doubt and then boom, you know, and this happens to us all the time. We have an experience and then we go along for a long time, then we start getting confused again and then because of that it forces another opening and then we're on another level, so that keeps happening all the time.

[41:06]

I think in the practice of all of us. So the main thing is practice. Practice itself is an enlightenment experience. Because we have this idea that it's supposed to be thunder and lightning, we don't realize it. That's the problem, it's a big problem. Just everyday activity is an enlightened experience. I know it's almost time. I'm looking for one passage here. He says, throughout the 24 hours of the day, you operate and act in all sorts of ways, seeing and hearing, laughing and talking, raging and rejoicing, affirming and denying. Now tell me, ultimately, who is it that can operate and act in this way?

[42:11]

If you say it is the physical body operating, then why is it that when people's lives have just ended and their bodies have not yet decomposed at all, their eyes cannot see, their ears cannot hear, their noses cannot smell, their tongues cannot talk, their bodies do not move, their hands do not grip, their feet do not step, so we know that what can see, hear and act must be your basic mind, not your physical body. Indeed, the gross elements of this physical body are inherently empty, like images in a mirror, like the moon reflected in water. How can they be capable of perfectly clear and constant awareness, thoroughly lucid, sensitive and effective, with countless subtle functions? Thus it is said spiritual powers and subtle functions are drawing water and Hollywood." Famous statement. just an everyday activity.

[43:15]

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