I'd like to introduce a good friend, Peggy-san. Tom Giradeau is currently the director at San Francisco City Center and received priest ordination from Senkatsu Baker Roshi, has worked at Green's for a long time, and is a long-time T student of Oka-san, is that right? Uh-huh. And we've determined the last time he came to speak with us was January 26th, six or so years ago. And we're very happy to have him here. Welcome. Thank you, Karen. Good morning. Good morning. I tend to mumble, so please feel free to yell at me or something. I recently, in January, I had what they call a CVA, which is an interesting term for a stroke, a light one called cardiovascular accident.

[01:22]

So I had an accident in January, and I lost the use of my hand. She's coming back. So that's why I'm not wearing my OK shirt. Anyway, part of that is I also stopped smoking after 40 years, and so I'm kind of in a state I could ever do it, but that's where I am right now, in the past couple of months anyway. The last time I was here, which was about six years ago, I hadn't been giving talks Volume 1 of The Flower Garlands, which I hadn't seen.

[02:26]

And at this point I said, oh, man, that's hard for me. And I think three people got up and walked out. And I said, uh-oh, that doesn't work very well. I still have a book, it's a little bit smaller. It's The Transmission of the Light, which Karen tells me you people are in the practice period and you've been I mentioned to Mel last week that I was coming here because Alan had called me about making an appointment. And he said he was going to tell me if there was any theme. Well, he didn't get back to me, but I talked to Mel about this. And he said, no, no, there's no theme. We don't have any theme. And I didn't even tell him you were doing this class here. Just everyday life. That's all. OK. Everyday life. That's right. OK.

[03:26]

So anyway, here I am. But I decided to try to do this one anyway. I was, sometimes I don't like to read too much, although I do like reading poetry, but I didn't bring any poems today. I usually, when I give a talk, I have a few poems to read. Well, each one of these cases has a poem in it anyway. But I was trying to think of somehow to connect it to everyday life, which Sharon Mill had mentioned, and I don't know if it was working very well. I said, well, I looked in the calendar, and today is Armed Forces Day. I think last Sunday was Mother's Day, and tomorrow is the Day of Breakers. So what? So much for everyday life, right? But let's see what gets me. That's what's happening. I think I will try to get back to some of those, tie them together, I don't know.

[04:32]

But we'll get on to the case. It's Dong Shan, which he's the... I guess you've already found out if you're having classes with Mel. I suppose he's using the Cleary and the Cook. I don't know. But Cleary and Cook don't agree on what number the ancestor is. He's not an atheist. He started it. So in Cleary, this guy is 39. So it'll be different in Cook. Cook may be 38. I don't know. But I'll just start reading the case a little bit, and then we'll take it from there. Deng Shan called on Zen master Yun Yan and asked, who can hear the teaching of inanimate things? Yun Yan said, it can be heard by the inanimate. Deng Xian asked, do you hear it? Yuanyuan said, if I heard it, you wouldn't hear my teaching. Deng Xian said, if so, then I don't hear your teaching.

[05:37]

Yuanyuan said, if you don't even hear my teaching, how much less the teaching of the inanimate. Deng Xian was greatly enlightened at this. He spoke a verse to Yuanyuan, wondrous, wondrous. The teaching of the inanimate is inconceivable. If you listen with your ears, you won't understand. When you hear the sound with your eyes, then you'll know. I remember reading this statement, something like it a long time ago, about hearing things with your eyes, something about the senses. It kind of, I was attracted to it, maybe because when that in his, he says, the footnote about seeing with your, hearing with your eyes, he says that, I mean, hearing with the mind's eye. Oh, that takes all the fun out of me there.

[06:41]

So anyway, but it's still kind of neat, I mean, hearing, hearing with your eyes, you know. Anyway, this, this Dongshan, when he was a little boy monk, He would study, had a teacher, a tutor they called it. He was a boy, he followed a teacher and recited the heart wisdom scripture. When it came to the point where it says, there is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, body or mind. He suddenly felt his face with his hand and said, I have eyes, ears, nose, tongue and so on. Why does the scripture say they don't exist? The tutor was amazed and said, I am not your teacher." And he directed Dong Chang to a Zen master who initiated him. He was fully ordained as a monk when he was 21. I guess the teacher that he said this to was not a Zen teacher. He must have been a Tengai or something, Lotus Sutra, because he said he sent him to a Zen master. I'm not going to talk to you anymore.

[07:49]

Don't make that bother me. So Dongshan, now comes the mother part, okay? Dongshan was his mother's favorite son. His elder brother had passed away, his younger brother was poor, and his father had died. But once he aspired to the school of emptiness, he left his old mother and vowed he would never go back to his native place to see his relatives without having realized the weight He left home with this determination. Eventually, Dongshan completed his study successfully. His mother, separated from her son, had no other support. Day after day, she looked for him, eventually becoming an itinerant beggar. When Dongshan refused, well, let's see, she wanted to go see him. She heard where her son was living and she wanted to go see him. Dongshan refused. He barred his door and would let her in because he wasn't willing to see her. Because of this, his mother finally died of grief outside his room. After his mother had died, Dengxiang went out and took the rice she had with her and mixed it in with the community's mourning gruel as a funerary offering.

[09:01]

Before long, his mother appeared to him in a dream and said, Because you kept your determination firm and would not see me, the delusive feelings of emotional attachment were ended have been born in the heaven of satisfaction." Well, so much for his mother. Maybe that's the Mother's Day time that I was thinking about. I mean, he wouldn't see her. She's out there. He bars the door and, oh, so she dies. But then, of course, because, I guess, he takes her rice, remember, that she left and they offer it. And then she's reborn, according to the dream. in the Tushita Heaven, which is this place, this great place. This is also the place that Shakyamuni's mother was reborn into. You know, the story that Shakyamuni's mother died seven days after his birth. And some of the Leaping Woods scripture you're reading that she died of happiness because of giving birth to this great being.

[10:07]

And she was reborn in this heaven. Of course, later on, he went up, Shakyamuni went to this heaven and preached to his mother to help her go on to enlighten him. Anyway, so this reminded me when I read this story about Dongsheng's mother being reborn, I just thought of Shakyamuni's mother. Well, nothing to think about. That's my mother's day, tell me. Later on, the common This is Kaesong. He says this is what made Dongshan great, because he did this. He carried on the tradition. He further, Soto Zen had made it possible to be flourished because of his determination to leave his mother like that.

[11:10]

She is, as you know, a beggar. left her. So this was Kazan's praise for him doing this. It might be difficult to take. Anyway. So you give up all attachments. I mean, actually, Shakyamuni He left a wife and child, a little child that has been born. Of course, he was leaving a great palace also, yet he didn't leave them with the beggars out in the street. Anyway, this, I guess, is called intention, a great, great intention to give up all determination to do what is needed to be done.

[12:15]

Well, the Armed Forces Day, okay, the inanimate, the teaching of the inanimate. I drove a cab for about 10 years in San Francisco. And I was thinking about when I looked at the cab, I just thought of Armed Forces Day. A lot of my affairs, which I used to work on the weekends, And when I have a good night, or just a mediocre night, it depends, of course, on how many people are in town, what's happening in town. And at that time, over here in Alameda, there was an aircraft carrier. It was called the Coral Sea. And it used to be based here. So whenever the Coral Sea was at home base, it used to be a good night for cats.

[13:28]

They'd say, oh, the Carl C's return. Oh, this weekend's going to be good. So I was sort of dependent on these servicemen who would come to town, and they would have to get back over here. They'd miss BART or whatever transportation was to take a cab back. One morning, Sunday morning, I guess it was, it was about 3 a.m. is usually when you've got these trips. Two or three of these sailors flag me down and they say, Alameda. Okay. Coral Sea, right? Yeah. Okay. So we drive over, and I haven't had many of those trips before. This time I drove, I knew how to go in, you know. Drive right up to the ship. And there it was. I mean, it was one of those beautiful San Francisco nights, you know. It was clear. There was a moon in the sky. You look across. And this huge ship coming up, because you drove right up to the ship.

[14:37]

You used to dock right, come right in, you know, right there where you drive. And I looked at it, and it was fantastically beautiful. The shape, lit in the moonlight, lights on it, you know, certain places and all that. Very quiet. And I had a very moving experience of beauty or whatever. And then I said, I'm having this wonderful experience looking at something that is utterly beautiful. I was not thinking of war, what this represented. It was just this shape, this image that was hitting me, and it was just beautiful, very beautiful. And of course, then I went, Oh, this beautiful thing is made for destruction.

[15:38]

And yet, I'm still having this feeling. So, I thought about that. And I thought about Many of you have heard the term samsara, the wheel of suffering that we're on as we try to get off. And that's sometimes called suffering, samsara. But also sometimes when samsara is nirvana, this world of suffering is the world of enlightenment, which is difficult. So I don't know whether I was having that experience looking at the Coral Sea I still think about it. I was looking at an instrument of destruction and having a wonderful feeling, a beautiful thing, a beautiful image going on. But I don't think this is what Dong Xuan is talking about in this case.

[16:43]

He's talking about the inanimate. In the beginning of his Zen study, Dongshan joined the congregation of Nongquan. He happened to be there on the anniversary of the death of Nongquan's teacher, Matsu. As they were preparing a commemorative ceremony, Nongquan asked the group, we're having a ceremony for Matsu tomorrow. Do you think he will come? When nobody answered, Dongshan came forward and said, he'll come when he has a companion. Dongquan said, although this is a young man, he's suitable for polishing. Dongxian said, don't demean the good or enslave the free. Next, Dongxian called on Guishan and said, recently I heard that the national teacher of Xiong, Xiong of Dongquan, had a saying about the teaching of inanimate things.

[17:46]

I don't understand the subtle meaning. Guishan said, do you remember it? Dongshan said that he did. When Gongshan asked him to repeat it, Dongshan recounted the following story. A monk asked a teacher, what is the mind of the ancient Buddhas? The teacher said, fences, walls, tiles, pebbles. Dongshan said, aren't those inanimate things? The teacher said they were. The monk said, can they teach? The teacher said, they are always teaching, clearly, unceasingly. The monk said, why can't I hear them? The teacher said, you yourself don't hear, but you shouldn't hinder that which does hear. The monk said, who can hear it? The teacher said, the saints can. The monk said, do you hear it? The teacher said, no. The monk said, if you don't hear it, How do you know inanimate things can teach?

[18:49]

The teacher said, it's lucky I don't hear it, for if I did, I'd be equal to the saints, and you wouldn't hear my teaching. Tricky. The monk said, then sentient beings have no part in it. The teacher said, I teach sentient beings, not the saints. The monk said, after sentient beings, then what? The teacher said, then they're not sentient beings. said, what scripture is the teacher of the inanimate based on? The teacher said, obviously words that do not accord with the classics are the talk of a scholar. Haven't you read where the flower ornament scripture says, lands teach, beings teach, all things in all times teach? Well, I guess I could go on. I really like this one. I hope you guys, too, come up with this. I was talking to Sharon about that. Are you going to do this one that Mel mentioned about doing this one?

[19:53]

We're doing it this week. This is the one. Great. All right. I don't know whether it's great or not. You guys will be ready with some questions if you've been studying, right? Anyway, so I don't know if I told this story about the coral sea. I was receiving something there. But later on in this case, it says, that's not it. You're not going to say that the tiles and pebbles and all that are teaching me. Because if I just say that, then I'm off base on that. But something definitely was happening to me when I was having this experience over there in Alameda. He does go on later and talk about what just really is happening here. I'm starting to mumble, I know, I know. Okay, let's just read some more.

[20:56]

Finally, Dongshan left Guishan and went to Yunyan. That's back to the beginning. Bringing up the preceding events, he asked, Who can hear the teachings of the inanimate? Yunyan said, The inanimate can hear it. Dongshan asked, Why don't I hear it? Yunyan raised his whisk and said, Do you hear? Dongshan said, no. Yunyan said, if you don't even hear my teaching, how could you hear the teaching of the inanimate? Dongshan said, what scripture contains the teaching of the inanimate? Yunyan said, haven't you read where the infinite light scripture says, rivers, birds, trees, and groves all encode the Buddha and the teaching? At this Dongshan had an awakening. After expressing his understanding, Dongshan said to Yunyan, I still have residual habits that have not been exhausted. Yunyan said, what have you done? Dongshan said, I don't even practice the holy truth. Yunyan said, are you happy? Dongshan said, yes, it is, though I have found a jewel in a trash heap.

[21:59]

Dongshan also asked Yunyan, what should I do when I want to see my true being? Yun Yan said, ask the messenger within. Deng Xian said, I am asking now. Yun Yan said, what does he tell you? When Deng Xian took leave of Yun Yan, he asked, after your death, if someone asked me if I could describe your reality, how should I answer? Yun Yan remained silent for a while and said, just this is it. Deng Xian sank into thought. Yong-Yan said, you should be most thorough in your understanding of this matter. Dong-Shan still has some doubts, but later he was greatly enlightened when he saw his reflection in the water as he crossed the river. Then he understood the meaning of what had gone before. He said in verse, Don't seek from others, or you'll be estranged from yourself. I now go on alone. Everywhere I encounter it.

[23:02]

It now is me. I now am not it. one must understand in this way, to merge with being as is. He does talk about, in this about, there was always some sort of companion or something that is, something So did we say you're never alone, or the only time you have to be alone is at a certain time in your life? I noticed when we had this class, we had this class in the city, we did this book, several of them in the practice period in the city. There was a couple of cases where it comes up about this companion, about this other, and it made some people uncomfortable.

[24:06]

Because it was starting to sound like very, very dualistic. This Other. What is this Other that is present? Always present. Is this a teaching? Tear it out.

[25:09]

Don't read it. There's a poem over here. Let's see. This happened to me last time I gave a talk in the city. I couldn't turn the page. There. Is that what I wanted? Okay, so he went back to the national teacher. I've heard that you say inanimate things teach. I don't understand this and ask for your instruction. The teacher said if you would ask about the teaching of the inanimate, you should understand the inanimate. Only then you will hear my teaching. Just ask after the teaching of the inanimate. Inanimate. The worker said, at that moment I'm just trying, going by expedience for inanimate things. What is the relation of inanimate beings? The teacher said, in all present activities, as long as the twin currents of profane and holy do not arise and vanish, then there is this Zen as mystic consciousness that is not in the realm of being or non-being.

[26:17]

It is fully perceptive and aware. It is just that it has no emotional consciousness or binding attachments. That is why the sixth founder of Zen said, This is how the national teacher spoke about the teachings of the inanimate. That is, he said that as long as profanity and holiness do not appear and disappear in the midst of activities, this is mystic consciousness that is not in the province of either existence or nonexistence, yet it is fully aware. People usually think that inanimate means things like walls, pebbles, lamps, and pillars. This is not what the teacher is saying. He means there is a and holiness are not divided. Emotional attachments to illusion and enlightenment are not produced.

[27:19]

It is not conceivable by emotional assessments and discriminations. It is not the movements of birth and death coming and going. This is Mr. Consciousness, fully perceptive and aware, but it is not sentimental or cognitive clinging. Carl C. Was I experiencing this pure thing happening here? Was I experiencing the mystic consciousness? Seeing this light, and then I started to divide it up when I started thinking about this represents destruction, this represents war, everything I've been against, but yet it's beautiful. I'm having this beautiful experience. I don't know. I've been working with this for years. I had a similar thing. I worked at Fort Mason as Karen said, I worked at Greene's for quite a few years. And again, every year, which people probably also know, the Blue Angels come in to the Bay Area, and they start flying around, creating all kinds of noise, havoc, things like that.

[28:22]

Well, when they would come by, they would practice at Fort Mason, and they would come down low over the grounds there, and it would just be roaring, roaring sounds, explosive sounds and all that. Yet I was very exhilarated by it. And again, I thought it was looking at these machines going by, and it was like the feeling I had at the Coral Sea. Of course, that was much more obvious. The Coral Sea experience was very quiet, peaceful. These guys were coming down. But again, I thought about that again. I said, in this symbol of the destructiveness, I mean, we say we practice non-duality. I mean, you cannot exclude You can't say it's over there and the good part is here. You can't do that. You have to accept this whole thing somehow and see right to it. But I believe. So anyway, he goes on and traces Dong Xiong about leaving

[29:34]

Thus observing carefully, you become fully aware of this mystic consciousness, which is called inanimate or insentient. It is called inanimate because there is no running after sound and form, no bondage of emotions or discrimination. Nanyang really explained this principle in detail. So when you hear talk of the inanimate, don't make the mistake of understanding it like fences or walls. As long as your feelings and thoughts are not deluded and attached, and your perception is not scattered here and there at random, then that mystic consciousness will be bright and unclouded, clearly aware. If you try to grasp this, you cannot get it. It has no form, so it is not existent. If you try to get rid of it, you cannot separate from it, because it is forever with you. It is non-existent. It is not cognition or thought. It is not tied to any physical or psychological elements.

[30:46]

That is why Zen Master Hong Shi said, there is wisdom apart from intellectual assessment and discrimination. There is a body which is not a cluster of elements. In other words, it is this mystic consciousness, always teaching clearly, means it always manifests. This is called teaching. It has one raise the eyebrows and blink the eyes, makes one walk, stand, sit and recline, rushing, hurrying, dying here, being born there, eating when hungry, sleeping when tired, all is teaching. Speaking, working, all activities are also teaching. It's not just spoken or unspoken teaching. There is something that appears obviously and it's clearly never hidden. Everything down to the chirping of insects is revealed. Therefore, everything is always teaching, clearly, unceasingly. If you can discern minutely, someday you'll be able to be a model for others. As was our ancestor Dongshan.

[31:48]

But how can we explain this principle? Extremely subtle, mystic consciousness is not mental attachment. All that time it causes that to teach profusely. Well, if you have any questions, I'd like to try to see what comes out of that. I guess I have more of a comment than a question. Some others, they kind of disturbed me. Disturbed? Yes, but I think what I heard in the reading at first was that In my practice, I don't understand, but I hear the focus towards detachment, but I think as human beings, it's hard to do.

[33:03]

I think we're more like prairie dogs than lone eagles. We like to see ourselves as lone eagles. And I think what they were talking about there was healthy attachment. I think of it as a dysfunctional situation with his mother, He was trying to become enlightened to come back to be, I think his intention was to be attached in a detached way. And because he wasn't ready So, while our book contains enlightenment, it's a thick situation. So, to me, that's how I made the story of the positive thing in my mind, which is, well, it's good to meet your mother. As a mother, I have a lot of difficulty with that.

[34:04]

And I'm certainly attached, at least for another five to seven years. But a detached attachment. That's what I was thinking. Not a complete contagion. Yeah. That should work. Yeah. What you said about this world reminds me of people who have told me, occasionally I've met people who say that they were inspired by military music even though they were not. They did not like the military music. And, like, one time on the 4th of July, I saw the planes up on the field. And I thought they were really pretty to watch when they fly in formations and they do exercise. And I'm also a one-time militarist. So it's the same type of thing, I guess. Who is? I don't know. Yeah. I know there was a lot of reports about the... from the Vietnam War.

[35:08]

The beauty of the bullets going through, the destructive forces going through the air, and the knife, and the colors, and all that happening there. People were sitting there, seeing this wonderful color, sound, looking at it. It seems to me it's part of the American mythology. It's part of the American... It's a part of the American mythology, you know, strength, and that we're saviors of the world. Yeah. And that, you know, that there's a beauty inherently in just light and color. Mm-hmm. I think it caught in the mythology. Well, you know this in the Bhagavad Gita. Anyway, Christianity shows his true form to our Jews, and it's terrifying what he shows.

[36:37]

And I guess it was Robert Oppenheim, he was the one who worked on the Bible. He quotes that Gita, he quoted the Gita. of creation is showing form. Don't go through that sort of thing. I have trouble these days with the suffering that's going on right outside our doorstep. I look at the homeless. Feeling, what can I do? Is doing Zazen helping anybody except me? Is it helping the person lying on the street?

[37:40]

I have to believe it is. But I can't tell you. I mean, it's here for me. I believe it is. And it seems to be a... It's there. It's there in the person lying in the suffering. But to be able to... Did you have anything to say about the beta breakers? Oh, I was wondering if anyone was going to say anything about that. Well, it's tomorrow. I don't know if Dongshan, if I found anything in there. I bet you if I looked hard enough I could probably find something in there. answer that.

[38:47]

They go right by, you know, Page Street, a couple blocks away. That was another part when I was driving Cat. I used to have to So sometimes I would just go down to this bar down in the waterfront. And it was fun, because it was filled with longshoremen and all that. And we would watch the race on television. And I wish I had the tape, some of the comments that the longshoremen would make about, you know, why these people are running. They'll sit there drinking their vodka for breakfast. Anyway. Well, that's a pain in the brain, because I have Buddha nature. Are they all Buddhas running? Oh, Bodhisattvas better run tomorrow. Run, run, run. Tonight they're going to go down to the High Regency and eat pasta. I guess they do have big pasta feasts together.

[39:49]

But I'm afraid I didn't really kind of hook it up there with the others. Let's see, there's still a... Sharon told me about the time. I forget what time it was supposed to be, but I still have time. I haven't run out yet. Yeah. At the beginning of your speaking, you talked about when this person came up and said, wait, I have a nose and ears, and I sent them on to somebody else. What happened with the Zen master when he went to the Zen master and said... Yeah, what did he say to him? Yeah. Well, you know, we say this all the time. We say, no eyes, no ears, no nose. What's that all about? We obviously have them. Well, that's a whole other teaching, a whole other talk probably. But basically, who hears? Who sees? And then he says, I have them. But then you might say, one of our biggest, what we're dealing with. As Mel said, there's no theme in it.

[40:53]

It's everyday life. I remember, actually my first Ascension instruction was given by Mel over on page three. And one of the people at present at the time mentioned, asked the question, do you people have koans? They were thinking of Ren'zai at the time. And then Mel said, we're not Ren'zai, but if you say we have a koan, it's everyday life. What is that? So that's the eyes, the ears, the nose, all that. That's what we're dealing with constantly. And the trouble is we're clinging to these things. It was mentioned, I don't want to find it now, but about clinging to these clumps, these aggregates called as condas. What makes up what we think is, for me, a person, is just these eyes, ears, nose, and then we hang out too and say, that's me.

[41:54]

I'm seeing it. I saw the Coral Sea and I had this great, I had this great experience, you know. But that is, was that me that was experiencing this? Something like that. I took a stab at it anyway. And your experience of beholding this beautiful shape that later you realized was part of All I have here is yes or no, it's this or that.

[43:03]

And maybe part of the wonder of that experience for you was that for a moment you were free. And I think, I know that I long for moments of being free from Buddha, and believing this or that. It's just totally different. All of a sudden, it's this good or bad. This or that doesn't apply. This is another dimension. And I didn't know that I was capable of that dimension. And it feels so enhancing, so miraculous almost. And it seems to me that they're related, that your experience watching that ship and the airplanes that is really not related to whether they're made for destroying or for good or anything.

[44:06]

If there's something there, some dimension that sort of we're reminded of every once in a while. And do we have ears? Do we have nose? A nose and so on. Is it really true? Is it not true? And so it's sort of to escape judgment, beautiful, ugly, this bad, good, bad, monstrous, angelic judgment. It sinks as they are. Maybe I was just seeing things without having any of this other stuff coming out of me. I just was seeing at that time. That was a powerful experience because we don't just see. But the thing about emptiness again is that the scripture actually says, it doesn't say we don't have eyes.

[45:09]

It says there's no own being. Not in the whole being they don't exist. They're empty in their own being. Other times you read about it, we cling to these things. We hang on to them. And that would be your judgment. I never understood why Dongshan saying that made that teacher think, oh, this is a Zen student, I have to get him to a Zen master, because I thought we all, the first time we read the Heart Sutra, went, you know, this is wrong. But all this talk makes me think very much of a story, and I don't remember the particulars, but it's about a monk who was physically suffering, and I guess had lost his way and was stumbling in the dark and didn't have food or water, and finds some shelter, and feels around in the dark and finds a bowl of water and it feels cold and clear and he's very thirsty and he drinks it down and he's very refreshed and this is just when he needed and when he wakes up in the morning he's in this horrible sort of grave place and it was a skull full of disgusting things.

[46:22]

So was he refreshed or not? Yeah, there's stories like that. Things as they are. And that's kind of invited to the Carl Sia. I could have seen it in action. Yeah, I probably should end. But that point, you know, what made that young guy so great, you know what I mean? Because he said, well, I have eyes, you know. And I wonder whether it was because he was so young he wasn't afraid to say that, or the teacher said maybe he's ready to have some other And no one told me to go find another teacher. They said, Morsazen. Yeah, Morsazen. I said, shut up and go sit down. Or you need a better teacher. Sure, sure. But it's something we go on forever trying to figure this thing out. But I think the whole thing of own being and clinging to these things is important.

[47:26]

When you have trouble with this, no eyes, no ears. Remember that. It's, we do this thing to it, and that isn't what they are.

[47:39]

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