Good morning. Good morning. Our guest speaker today is Hoang Xen Khi, Dharma Cloud, Total Joy, and otherwise known as Mary Mocene, who is the abbot of Clearwater Zen Do in Vallejo, which opened in 2000, the year 2000. And she also leads a sitting group in Pleasant Hill, which began in 2003 and is ongoing every week. Mary has been practicing since 1988. She began here, but largely was trained at San Francisco Zen Center. She was ordained by Sojourn in 1994 and received dharma transmission from him in 2005.

[01:07]

Her mountain seat at Clearwater was in 2007. And it's my honor to introduce Dzogchen Zenki Merimosi. Thank you. It's nice to be introduced, and there are many faces that I know, but also many that I don't, so I think it makes sense. It feels a little odd to me to be introduced at my root home temple, but then again. So when I started Clearwater years ago, Sojin said to me, Talk about Zazen. Just keep ... always talk about Zazen. So I thought I'd talk about Zazen. Of course, when I come back to it, I realize I never talk about anything else but Zazen. It always seems to come up.

[02:12]

It's what we do. But what in the world is it? What is it that we do? What is this Zazen? If you think you know, of course, you're in trouble. And as I often say, when you settle on something and you think you know, you'll find out your error soon enough, because the universe will give you a dose of it. But it's interesting, it's a useful question. What is it? What am I doing? What is this Zazen? Sojin says that every time he sits down, he gives himself Zazen instructions. That's a very good practice. And what are you doing? What are we doing? Tigin Layton has a new book, well, not that new, but it's relatively new.

[03:15]

It's called Zen Questions. And the first section is about Zazen. And he talks about that spirit of inquiry, having a question. Not an answer, a question. What am I doing? What is going on here? What is it? What is it? There isn't an answer. And in some sense, we're just sitting. That's all we're doing. Just sitting, simply sitting. no mantras, no object, by me, no counting, lest my mind's driving me crazy. Shikantaza, simply sitting. Just sit there. I just sent you to the, what is it, the BCC community listserv

[04:20]

a link to a story about a Buddha in Oakland on a little traffic island. I used to live in that area of Oakland. It's on 11th Avenue near East Oakland. And there are lots of streets that have these little traffic barriers. It puts Berkeley to shame. And so apparently this traffic barrier was being defaced all the time, and people would drop off old rotten mattresses and things, and there was a lot of graffiti. So this couple, they weren't Buddhists, but they just thought, well, we're going to buy a Buddha, because a Buddha is sort of nonsectarian, and maybe the Buddha abides, like the dew to the Buddha abides. And so they just, they got a Buddha statue, like a garden one, a cement Buddha statue, and they put it out on that traffic island. And things seemed to get a little better.

[05:22]

Pretty soon there weren't quite so many mattresses and not quite so much graffiti. And then somebody painted it a nice, nice sort of a creamy color And it got a little better. And they keep saying, and the Buddha just sat there. That's what we're doing. We're just sitting there. And then somebody left a little offering, some flowers in front of the Buddha. And it got a little better. And then people kept offering. The offerings were greater. And then people started coming and kind of cleaning up around the Buddha. And eventually, while the Buddha just sat there, it completely transformed. And then the city parks department, or street department, noticed that there was this thing there, and they were going to remove it. So luckily the neighbors heard about it, because the couple felt like it wasn't their Buddha, they put it there, but it was just an offering.

[06:31]

people got together, petitions, and talked to their city council person and so on, and now the street, public works, whatever, they're studying the matter. As far as I know, the Buddha is still there. What they keep saying in this little article, it just keeps saying, the Buddha just sat there. We're just sitting here. And we've been sitting here for a long, long time, at least since the Buddha's time. The Buddha did just sit there. And I want to read you an old story about just sitting there. It's about Sherdo Shichian, otherwise known as Sekito Kisen, and his student Yaoshan Weiyan, Yakusan Igen.

[07:52]

So one day Yaoshan was sitting and Sherdo asked him, what are you doing here? Yaoshan said, I'm not doing a thing. Sherdo said, then you're just sitting leisurely. Yaoshan said, if I were sitting leisurely, I'd be doing something. Sherdo said, you say you're not doing anything. What is it that you're not doing? Yaoshan said, a thousand sages don't know. Sherdo wrote a verse of praise that said, long abiding together, not knowing its name, just going on practicing like this. Since ancient times, the sages don't know. Will searching everywhere now make it known? The sages don't know. Only don't know.

[09:00]

Will searching everywhere help? Will sittings us in order to help? Is that a useful thing? What are you doing? I'm sitting. If you're sitting, if you're just sitting there, aren't you just sitting Leisurely is the word that they used. If I were sitting leisurely, I'd be doing something. Right? You know, the Fukan Zazengi, Dogen Zazen instruction says, think not thinking. How do you think not thinking? Non-thinking. So how do you sit not leisurely?

[10:04]

Not seeking everywhere? Could you say non-sitting? Non-sitting? You could certainly say non-trying. It's a wonderful way of saying it because it's in the middle, right? Because there's no point in grasping after something, trying to get somewhere, having a goal. On the other hand, sitting leisurely, sitting with no effort, dozing away on your cushion, not having any intention is not so useful either. So what's in the middle? Non-sitting? I'm afraid to say that out loud. of sitting.

[11:07]

Shikantaza we call it. Just sitting, simply sitting. Sitting down in the middle of your life with your body and mind just as it is right now. As it really is. noticing the breeze on your cheek, noticing your butt on the chair or the cushion, noticing your feet, noticing the faint sound of the birds, noticing your breath, noticing your posture, whatever arises, whatever arises, just staying Present. Feeling the silence. Can you feel it?

[12:14]

Knowing the silence. I'm purposely not saying hearing the silence. You can hear it, but non-sitting is not hearing it. In other words, not putting your attention on listening. Shikantaza, simply sitting, is sitting down in the middle of what is. And the effort, and there is effort, great effort, but the effort is to be open to it. The effort is to stay present for it. It's not leisurely. Right? We sit and we pay attention to our posture. Long, straight back. Little curve in the lower back.

[13:22]

Honoring that curve and feeling the breastbone pushing up. Not out, but just up. Years ago, a surgeon gave Zazen instruction during a lecture, I think it was. I don't know if it was here or Tassajara or where, but at any rate, I remember he was saying, push up with your breastbone, not out, up. And I don't know that I'd ever heard that before. Maybe I had, but I had, you know, at some point you're ready to hear something and you hear it and you think, oh. And I did that and it was an aha moment. Because when you do that, you naturally sit up straighter and you can feel it, your bones click in to carry the weight. So we make that effort moment after moment to sit up really straight, balance your head on your spine. Dogen says your ears in line with your shoulders and your nose in line with your navel.

[14:26]

We make that effort. And we make the effort of non-thinking. We make the effort of letting go of the thoughts that arise, moment after moment. Letting go, letting go, letting go, and then letting go again. And then letting go some more. Sometimes it's really hard and sometimes it feels like you're doing it and doing it and doing it. I've had, oh, I've had sushis where it felt like the whole time was like that. and it was exhausting. I comforted myself that I must have been very present because I was noticing all those instances of thinking. But that letting go of the thought, not pushing it away, just letting go of it, noticing it and letting go of it, that's not easy. Sitting, as Thaygen mentioned, sitting with that sense of inquiry,

[15:32]

What's going on here? What is this? It's a mystery. Sometimes it's scary. Sometimes there's joy. Can I sit still for it? Whatever it is, can I sit still for it and allow it? Can I turn towards it? That's my effort. staying open to what comes up and turning towards it. And when I turn away, as I've been known to do, turning back again. Katherine Thannis has a wonderful piece, had a wonderful piece in a book that Susan Moon edited called Being Bodies, Susan Moon and Eleanor Friedman. And the first paragraph of Katherine Thannis' piece refers to a statement by a student who said, Oh, I really understand now why we sit still, because when I don't sit still, then I can avoid what needs to come up.

[16:46]

But when I sit still, I can't avoid it. And I find myself allowing it. I find myself turning towards what comes up when I sit still. So we make the effort to sit still and to be present. And when we turn away, we come back again. It's not always easy. When my parents were dying, they each died in early 1989, a few months apart, I sat here with a lot of sadness, but also a lot of fear, my own fear of death came up very strongly. When your parents die, a friend of mine said, well, now you're an orphan. And I thought, oh, give me a break. I'm 40-some years old. But you know what? It's true. Because when your parents die, you're next.

[17:49]

So it often really hits people. and Sojin gave me Case 55 of the Blue Cliff Record, a koan about alive or dead, so that he amplified it all. But at any rate, I sat still for it, not always, but I sat here often with a lot of fear that I just my effort was to stay open to it, whatever came up, and to not turn away. Or when I did turn away, to come back. And that's our practice. Whether it's fear, sadness, lust, jealousy, you name it.

[18:52]

Shikantaza, sitting down in the middle of it. And if that's what's up, then be it. Don't hold on to it. Don't think about it. Be it. Mostly right here, she pointed to her hara for the tape. So maybe there's a sense of inquiry. Another way I like to describe it is sitting in willingness. I am willing to be with whatever comes up. I'm willing to be present with this body and this mind and this heart. I'm willing. You could use the word allowing, but allowing has to me a little too much of a sense of directing. I allow things. Willingness is just there. Allowing has a little too much ego.

[19:54]

So waiting in willingness. Waiting in the sense of having that sense of inquiry, a sense of curiosity, exploration. And willing for nothing to come up. Sometimes it's boring. Sometimes it's actually quiet and there's just breathing. If not, I'm breathing. There's not my legs are sitting, there's just breathing, just sitting. One of the joys of Zazen is egolessness. We need the ego. Sojourner once said, you know, it's not useful to have it right here in the middle. This is where it so much wants to be, right in the middle. Big thing. My hands are what, two feet apart? No. But we need it. But we just need it to be down here, about to the right, maybe about six inches. That'll do.

[20:57]

But Tsao Zen, I don't know if you need it at all. Maybe it needs to be an inch and a half. I don't know. Something needs to remind you to let go of that thought. But it's pretty much about egolessness. But that's a great effort. Setting that ego aside and saying, excuse me, you're the one over here. Sometimes it's a lot of work. So, non-ego. Maybe it's non-egoness. Just always keeping the question. Years ago, At Green Gulch, Norman Fisher was the head of practice. He was a tanto at Green Gulch. And it was a one-day sitting, I think. And he had gone around using the stick on people who asked for it. And then he sat down, and it was quiet for a few minutes. And then all of a sudden, out of the silence comes Norman's voice.

[22:01]

What in the world are you doing sitting here? Good question. About 30 seconds later, some woman got up and left. I never know why. But it's a good question and it stays with me. It stays, what in the world are you doing sitting here? And I want to tell you one more little story. I want to leave some time for questions here. Blanche Hartman, years ago, when she was first living at City Center, with Suzuki Roshi, you know, she started her training here. At any rate, she was sitting there and she began to get a sense of Zazen. So she goes to Doshan and she sits down and she says, you know, Roshi, I feel like I'm beginning to understand, I can't say it without laughing, I'm beginning to understand Zazen. And he looked at her, only time he ever got curious, he looked at her and he smacked his stick down.

[23:08]

I'm not going to do it because this stick has little wonderful imperfection, but if I smack this too much, I'm going to break it. But he did. He smacked it hard. He looked at her and he said, Don't you ever think you do Zazen! Zazen does Zazen! She said, Yes, sir. She just crawled up to me. And that's right. Zazen does Zazen. It's not your ego doing Zazen. We don't know what it is. We don't know what it is, so that's something to chew on. What in the world are you doing sitting here? You don't do Zazen, Zazen does Zazen. If you're sitting leisurely, you're doing something. What is going on? Something's happening. Feel it. Here's what Sherdo said to Yaoshan early on.

[24:23]

You can't attain it this way. You cannot attain it not this way. Trying to attain it this way or not this way, it cannot be attained. One of my mottos is trying doesn't work. So what will you do? So tell me. Oh, I wanted to say Happy Bastille Day, by the way. Vive la France. Joyeux Fête du Bastille. What will you do? Yes? I have a question about this motivation side. This willingness, this threshold I think so. I think so.

[25:30]

Though years ago, somebody, I think it was at Tassajara, somebody asked Sojan in a lecture, they said something like, you know, is it useful? Is there any point in just getting through a period? If you're in pain and you're sitting still or you're just having a hard time, whatever, and you just grit your teeth and get through it, is that useful? And Sojan said, I bet you don't remember this. Like it, don't like it, doesn't make a damn bit of difference. But there has to be some willingness, I think, because otherwise you're not going to do it. Don't you think? And there has to be some willingness to be open to what arises, because otherwise you're just sitting there so clenched, you know, and cutting things off. I knew somebody who I was proud of the fact that they were able to count every breath in clumps of ten, and then count every ten, every clump, for every period.

[26:34]

I don't think so. You know, that's just, that's too tight, and there's an unwillingness to that sort of sitting, I think. The as-if practice. Does that make sense to you? Ross and then I'm sorry, I don't know your name. Thank you. So sitting leisurely is doing something. And Dogen Zenji says that the Dharmagate of Zazen is repose and bliss. So how do you understand the difference between leisurely sitting, just doing something, and sitting... And repose and bliss? Which seems and feels leisurely. I don't think that's what Dogen meant, though, of course, you know, you can't talk about everything at once, right?

[27:37]

You can talk about this part about making the effort to sit up straight and the effort to let go of things and the effort to notice when you're turning away and to turn back towards and stuff like that. And you can also talk about the repose and bliss, but you can't talk about them at the same moment. but I think that my experience is that when I make that effort to sit up straight and let my bones carry the weight, for example, so that my back doesn't get so tired, because that's what bones are made for and muscles are not, so when I make that effort, when I make the effort to stay present, for example, when I stayed present for the great fear that came up about death, or impermanence, it turns out that things arise, abide and pass away, right? They're empty. So they passed away and then on the other side of that was repose and bliss.

[28:44]

But only if I allowed the process to happen. So when I was clenched or turned away or making wrong effort, I suppose, then there wasn't any repose and bliss. I think they go together. You know, I don't like to promise, because you can have one of those sushins like I had that time, when it was just like moving through molasses and just coming back, coming back, coming back, coming back. And I hated it. And then afterwards, like the next day or even that evening, there was tremendous lightness. There was repose and bliss, but not during the sushin. But you never know. You know that. You never know. Yeah. Yes. So I know that the idea of let Zazen do Zazen, you know, we talk about that, we talk about noting ideas, etc. Yeah. Well, maybe that should be applied to a lot of areas of life. Yes. Let eating do eating. Yes. Let driving to work do driving to work.

[29:49]

Is it really, is this, you know, Is this practice for doing that other billions of life? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we say, you know, take your Zazen out into the world. Or in 12-step programs, we say, make your best effort and let go of the result. This is very similar. But yeah, and yes. You know, we need, as I said, you know, maybe out in the world, when you're driving, your ego needs to be that six-inch event. It doesn't need to be right in the middle in a two-foot event. But we take that, can you simply do it? Not stupidly, you know, we're not talking about zoning out, but yes. So anyway, the short answer is yes. Yeah? When trying to let go in Zazen, or trying not to try, making that effort, How do you make sure that you don't start looking at, to borrow the metaphor, the finger pointing at the moon instead of the moon?

[31:02]

I mean, I find that happening all the time. I'm giving myself some instructions, or I'm focusing on my breathing, but then I'm just saying, breathing in, breathing out, and then that's all I'm doing, is I'm thinking about breathing, and I'm noticing breathing, but I'm not really open. Or I'm noticing how I'm sitting, but I'm not really open, because that's all I'm focused on. Can you put your attention on your knee? Did you just do that? Yes. Did you say to yourself, now I'm going to put my attention on my knee? No. That's it. Thank you very much. I really appreciate everything you said. And it reminds me, my ongoing complaint in Zazen is sleepiness drives me nuts. I mean, I suppose one answer is get more sleep at night. But it seems to me I'm sleeping enough. So what do you do to deal with that?

[32:11]

It is difficult. It is difficult. I think sometimes we go through periods when we're sleepy and then we wake up again. And sometimes, who knows why it is, Sometimes it's chemical. Sometimes there is something that we don't want to be with and that we're working through maybe on a subconscious level and you may never know what it is. But paying attention to posture, staying with your body a lot, can be helpful. Say, okay, I am going to work with my spine. I am going to pay a lot of attention to sitting up really straight. I am going to notice the curve in my lower back. I'm going to honor that curve. I'm going to pay it, where is my chin? Is my chin up? Is it tucked a tiny bit? Where are my ears? My head doesn't fall forward real far, but I tend to just sit with it.

[33:12]

It's just forward a little bit. So that's something that I work with. Pushing up with the breastbone and getting my ears in line with my shoulders. And I don't have magic. Luckily, in some sense, it's so uncomfortable to fall asleep that that's a motivator. Because if you fall forward, it's really uncomfortable. So, yeah. Yes. Oh, yes. Mary, hi. Thanks for everything. And just to pass on, I know you have heard and probably passed this on many times, but the two suggestions that I heard about sleepiness, which I need, The first, and they were apparently, unless it's apocryphal, they came from Suzuki Roshi, the first is to raise your eyes. To open them further? Go ahead, open your eyes and look up, and look, look. You know, let in more light, whatever. And then the second was when somebody kept saying, yes, but, yes, but, yes, but, Suzuki Roshi said, so sleep. Yeah. But I do have a question about people who are disabled and can't sit in this way.

[34:33]

I just think that needs to be looked at and talked about a little. People who can't sit in this way, do they have their own way? I think it's the intentionality. of posture. And it could be lying down, it could be sitting in kind of a sling chair. It's the intentionality that matters. I remember years ago, Judy Smith asked about it, and Sojin, she said, well I don't, what if you can't assume the posture? And Sojin said, you are assuming the posture. you know, years ago, Vicky Austin worked out a sort of, I think and Darlene together figured out a lying down posture where you often say you have your knees up and they would put a Zafu on the person's belly and then they would hold the Zafu or rest their hands on it in some way.

[35:46]

But the intentionality of keeping your knees from not falling open, so that there was something to focus on, some body event to focus on, because it helps us with our intention. Sitting cross-legged on the floor is actually the easiest, most comfortable posture. Sitting upright in a chair is not easy. It's not easy, especially if you're not leaning against the back and you're trying to sit upright. When I've done it, I have a tendency to sprain my ankle and then I wind up in a chair for a while. And if you don't sit up really straight, your back starts to really hurt. So you have to really work at it. And it's a lot of work. It's hard. Cross-legged is actually, I think, the easiest, most comfortable posture. And Seiza is a little easier on your knees, and it's harder on your back.

[36:49]

Anyway. Yes, sure. Yes. There's the assumption, what you say, that the person can't keep posture at all, but there's diseases like Parkinson's and others where the body can't sit still at all. Yeah, well, you've seen... Well, then they have to do movements. that there's still an intentionality to it, an intention, an intention to be still, and what is stillness? And then when you have Parkinson's you really have the koan of what's stillness, because this may be stillness, but can you do this and not have this up here, or this here in the heart, trembling also? It's different, but on some level it's the same. It's can you be present with your body and mind in stillness, in willingness, and openness to what is. Okay?

[37:52]

And I think Alexandra gives a great teaching in that regard. There was another hand up back there somewhere, I thought. Was that just saying hello? Yes, Susan. Well, it just occurred to me, the metaphor about the ego is kind of great. But is there ever a time when it is appropriate to have it right in the middle, two feet wide? I just suddenly wondered that. I mean, we do have this thing. It comes along with us. And maybe sometimes it's supposed to be big for a minute. I don't think so in terms of supposed to or those kind of words, but the fact is that it's in the middle sometimes and it's just how it is. I think it isn't that we don't have opinions or ideas or boundaries or emotions and the ego is involved in that sort of thing and it's also kind of directing traffic.

[39:06]

And we have a personality, we are a small self and a big self, but we're not a small self, and we're hardwired for that. But it doesn't have to be such an event. So this six-inch one, I think, is plenty big enough. And life works better when mine is over here, but sometimes it's not there, sometimes it's right here in the middle. well, you know, sometimes I have to clean up after it. The words that come to me about this so strongly are fear, the ego's dedication to maintaining itself. is what prevents some sort of shift.

[40:21]

So I like the idea of setting it aside, but there's another element. The letting go of fear really is dropping body and mind. And the dedication that ego says I have to be here. I'm the one. Without me, you don't exist. And that is somehow related to small self and big self. But it feels to me as if when you're sitting, developing skillful means for letting fear drop away. I don't have the answer yet, but that's where the edge of practice seems to be for me. Well, I don't know about letting fear drop away without first being fear. Sometimes it's just over like that. Sometimes it takes a long time.

[41:25]

It comes back and goes away and comes back and goes away. My experience is that I must allow myself to experience it, and I mean in my body. And that happens in Zazen, and that happens other times. That's been a major practice of being willing to be present in Zazen and other times for what arises. Not holding on to it, but if it arises, you know, if I was when my parents were dying, if this fear would come and my impulse would be to actually, you know, cringe and protect the middle of my body. And I would, the surgeon said, just give it some breath, breathe into it. And I must've looked funny. I didn't say anything, but he looked at me and he said, I'm not telling you to repress it. And I probably did, I didn't say that, but I probably did think it, I see you now. So I tried it and it was interesting.

[42:33]

It was very interesting practice. Is that a letting go of it? Not exactly, no, because it wasn't, you know, it just, I don't want to say much more about it, but it was a lot, you know, about being willing to sit there with that knot in my belly. So, you know, I couldn't, it wasn't a decision I made to let it go. I just was present with it. breathe into it, see what happens. Okay, so Ken, this is the last one. Just for a little perspective on ego, I think there probably are situations where a really big ego is appropriate and useful, but the problem is that we tend to use that and get in the habit of it. Like, if you're in certain kind of situations Emergency things like a wild animal is it is pouncing on you or something? Probably the most appropriate thing is for you to be focused like this is me, and I'm I'm gonna go totally into this thing

[43:45]

occasionally useful. Our problem is that we say, oh that worked real well, I broke that barrier, and then we think that if we have a problem, the way to break the barrier is to tense up. Yes, but I don't think of that as ego. I don't know that much about martial arts as I understand it. The point is to do it without ego. So there are times, I said, to have boundaries. There are times to be angry. But that's not necessarily ego. Or there are times to snatch the kid out of the middle of the street when the truck's coming. You don't say, excuse me, little Ronnie, would you please? No, you just, oh. But that's not how I think of ego. I think of ego as about me. When the tiger's running at you, you're not thinking about, I'm going to make my, you just do it. So it's different to me. We can disagree. I think it's time to stop.

[44:57]

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