So I wanted to start today with a little experiment. About more than a year ago we had a wonderful talk from the great Buddhist teacher Joanna Macy and she brought up a practice she called the great ball of merit and it happened that a friend and I were reading the sutra that that comes from, which is the perfection of wisdom in 8,000 lines, chapter six, and the chapter is called Jubilation and Dedication. And I wanted to see what it would be like to do that together somehow. So let's try it. And you, I don't know, you may want to close your eyes. It's kind of an imagination thing. We think of, we call to mind the benefit of basically people seeking truth and bringing it forth to help other people, help themselves and other people.

[01:15]

And, you know, we're sending it, centering it around our practice. So with the people who started Berkeley Zen Center and all their effort and perseverance, sitting, you know, sitting through, sitting Sashin, sitting through pain and also creating the physical spaces and taking care of them. And we kind of feel buoyed up. And so the benefit that they created and our rejoicing, our joy in remembering that is we kind of like feel that energy and we even like try to form it into, you know, the sutra says, a ball and you know for me I can't exactly get a solid object but what I get is sort of like a ball of energy or like almost like fireflies like gathering together these fireflies and and we go back we can think about Suzuki Roshi and coming from Japan and you know living through the war and all that he

[02:21]

to do to persevere, to bring this practice to us. And the other Japanese priests who lived through the war here in the internment camps and how they kept that alive for the other people to help people. And we can, and going back further to Dogen, you know, in Japan and everything, and then back to China, all the persecution, all the, you know, diligence and perseverance to bring something to life in the present and then pass it on to the next generation and back to the, you know, who brought it into the Chinese idiom, which was so different from the Indian and that effort. And going all the way back to our Buddha ancestors, I mean, to Buddha and the early ancestors who like memorize the scriptures and develop the Mahayana sutras and all that. incredible devotion, perseverance, and effort, and we can rejoice in what's come to us, the benefit that's come to us through that, and keep that joy and that benefit, just keep bringing it together into a shape of some kind.

[03:41]

And then we can also add all the wisdom traditions, all the people down through human history who've tried to touch some deeper truth, and then bring it to life, bring it forth to bring harmony and benefit to other people, and just keep thinking about all this good energy, all this benefit and effort. And then when we've got it, and our joy, our joy is part of it, our joy is part of the energy as we enjoy and feel buoyed up by thinking about all these and then at some point like now we turn it over and in the sutra we turn it over to full enlightenment and what i think of is i mean turn it over to saving life on earth and i imagine all the those fireflies all that going out all over the planet all over the earth and bringing healing bringing harmony bringing truth

[04:52]

for lecture, it rivals the most elaborate soto ceremony we ever do. So in my talk, I want to. Oh, right. So saving, saving life on Earth. I heard on the radio a few days ago that loss of biodiversity is as big a threat to life as climate change. And they went into the detail that climate change is a threat to human civilization, but loss of biodiversity is a threat to a species along with, as we lose those other species, our species. interdependent with them will be lost too.

[06:45]

So when I think about what needs to happen to save the planet, not the planet so much as life. What I think about, or at least for today's talk, I'm proposing that X amount of habit energy must be transformed. And we don't know how much X is. We just have to do everything we can to keep transforming habit energy. Whatever you think the cause of the problem is, corporate greed or white supremacy, poverty, colonialism, whatever it is, all of those are based on human habit energy. And so... I want to talk about habit energy from a couple different angles. First, I want to read you a little bit from this book, Buddha's Brain.

[07:54]

Buddha's Brain is about the neuroscience of our practice, basically. In this section, he's talking about the neurological origins of love and hate, basically. The process of a neural may seem dry and remote, but it played out in the daily life and death struggles of beings like us in many ways. For millions of years, until the advent of agriculture about 10,000 years ago, our ancestors lived in hunter-gatherer bands, usually with fewer than 150 men. And by the way, he's got all the references to all the studies that his facts and statistics are based on. They bred mainly within their own band while searching for food, avoiding predators, and competing with other bands for scarce resources.

[09:01]

In a fresh environment, individuals who cooperated with other members of their band typically lived longer and left more offspring. Further, bands with strong teamwork usually beat bands with weak teamwork at getting resources, surviving, and passing on their genes. Over the generations since tools were first invented, those genes that fostered relationship abilities and cooperative tendencies pushed their way forward in the human gene pool. We see the results today in the neural underpinnings of many essential features of human nature, including altruity, concern about reputation, fairness, language, forgiveness, morality and religion. And he goes on to describe the details of the neurology of all these, of empathy and love and all of this. And the hate side.

[10:04]

For millions of years, our ancestors were exposed to starvation, predators and disease. Making matters worse, climactic ups and downs brought scorching droughts and freezing ice ages intensifying the competition for scarce resources. In these tough environments, it was reproductively advantageous for our ancestors to be cooperative within their own band, but aggressive towards other bands. Cooperation and aggression evolved synergistically. Bands with greater cooperation were successful at aggression and aggression between bands demanded cooperation within bands. So I'm going to read that again because that's kind of the salient point here. And when I first read that, I just, for some reason, I just, ah. Cooperation and aggression evolved similarly. Bands with greater cooperation were more successful at aggression, and aggression between bands demanded cooperation within bands.

[11:11]

The result of these neural dynamics, he goes into all these details about the neurotransmitters and everything. The result of these neural dynamics is a familiar one. Take good care of us and fear, disdain, and attack them. On a larger scale, our aggressive tendencies fuel prejudice, oppression, ethnic cleansing, and war. As soon as you place anyone outside of the circle of us, the mind-brain automatically begins to devalue that person and justify poor treatment of them. In fact, as we've seen, intense aided the evolution of within-group altruism. The wolf of hate helped give birth to the wolf of love. I didn't go into the part about the wolves.

[12:14]

So we usually think of habit energy as one's own habit and how that plays out in our lives. But for the purposes of this talk, I'm proposing that this neurology that we've inherited is a kind of habit energy that also needs to be transformed. Kind of. mind that can write on an important document, all men are created equal and simultaneously not really mean all men. And in our practice, when we say all sentient beings, I think the Buddha meant for us to mean all sentient beings. So if we feel, you know, for those of us who feel safe and good in our Sangha, like, are we, we need to pay attention to this process, right?

[13:21]

We're not sort of contrasting that with the, you know, the not Sangha, you know, or the Soto versus the other Buddhism, the Soto Zen versus all the other kinds of Buddhism or Buddhism, as opposed to all the other kinds of religion or whatever it is. It's in ourselves. get rid of it but it really i think we really need to be aware of it recognize it and to the extent possible transform uh you know like so for example metta prep i feel like buddhism has been on to this the whole time metta practice when you do metta which metta means loving kindness you start with yourself you send loving kindness to yourself, and then you go to people you love, and then you extend it to neutral people, and finally to so-called enemies. So Buddhism's necessity of transforming habit energy, this kind of habit energy since the beginning.

[14:32]

So I have some slides, I made some slides. And I don't know how this is going to work because I'm showing you guys, and you guys probably can't see very well, but I will explain it. Can you still hear me? Okay, so we've got an eye and an ear, and they represent all five physical senses. We've got sights and sounds. And Nathan, I gave Nathan a link. If anybody has the capacity on their computer to have something else open while you're this open, Nathan may be able to put the link in the chat and then see whether that works. Anyway, the five sense objects represent, these represent the five sense objects. And the important thing here is, which you probably can't read, when they meet, they merge.

[15:35]

So this is the first moment of experience. And when our sense organ meets sense object, there's no subject and objects. When they meet, they merge. There's just seeing, just hearing, just touching, just tasting, just smelling. But then very quickly, there's a response. We like it, we don't like it. I'll show you guys. Very fast. And as soon as this happens, there's a sense of separation. There's a sense and the thing, you know, something's happening to someone and someone is having a reaction. And this is where there's a huge evolutionary advantage to being able to do this really fast.

[16:47]

Is this food or is this a threat? But unfortunately, it's becoming a huge evolutionary disadvantage at this point that we're kind of driven by this business. And a little sidebar on likes and dislikes. us people who've been doing Zen for a long time are very familiar with, you know, pointing to, we should try to not be doing, we should overcome this, right? You know, the great way is not difficult for preferences and many, many, many more things like that. And I was in a web... online class, and it wasn't even Zen, it was Theravada Buddhism, the old school Buddhism, but there had also been a teaching there about letting go of likes and dislikes. And someone asked the question, it was one of those wonderful moments where it's like, is that even possible? I'm like, where's the reality factor there?

[17:49]

You know, and maybe it's not even a good idea. are we supposed to forget about right and wrong? You know what I mean? Like, this is, you know, no way. She was basically, and she had this kind of pensive wisdom about it, you know? And I've been thinking about that because, yeah, she's right. It's not like sunsets are going to become boring and shit is not going to stink. It's something, there's some other, so obviously there's something else they need us to be doing than that. You know, it's not like, to become non-responsive to the beauty and tragedy of life and to, you know, feel bad about the awful things that happen to people. So to me, it's something about how we're connecting with what's happening, connecting with our lives. And I was thinking, you know, I was remembering being at the monastery At the monastery, you eat all these meals in this very ceremonious way.

[18:54]

I've spent three years at Tassajara and the ceremony of the meal kind of always pointing you to different aspects because food is like the main thrill at the monastery. You are totally into your likes and dislikes. I mean, you cannot escape your likes and dislikes. It's the most, you know, It's the most thing you can like and dislike about your life there, practically. But the way the actual meal is going down, in the midst of all of that, that's happening, but also it's pointing you to all these other aspects of what's happening. For one thing, it's trying to point you to having a bigger game on the whole thing. This food is for the three treasures. for our teachers, family, and all people, you saying these things. The first portion is for the precepts. The second is for the practice of samadhi.

[19:56]

The third is to save all beings. And we eat this food for everyone. And then, in addition to that, there's this whole ritual with these bowls. You're unpacking them. You're having to manage these physical acts and being served and passing. And so even though in the midst of all this, there's the food or not, there's also all this other stuff that's calling your attention to it. Three times a day you're doing this. So to me, what it's saying is, what are you connecting with? What are you connecting with in this moment? So next we have, I wrote at the top, slow down the water.

[21:03]

So next we have perception. And this is, you're not going to be able to read this, but this is like someone's representation of the wheel of emotion, human emotion. But names of all the emotions are important, but that's only the beginning of naming. Everything needs to be named, right? Everything that we manage and work with each other on has a name. And how we name things and the stories we make up about them are quick, is quick. And it's also part of a moment of perception. Moment of experience, I should say. They say that thought moments are 1 60th of a second. So I think of that as sort of like thought moments are related to seconds the way minutes or seconds are related to minutes. So it's fast, really fast. And then lastly,

[22:12]

We get to, oh, I'm sorry. I forgot to show you guys. This is a wheel of emotion, but represent the way we name everything. And then these are the final completeness, which is what do we think? What are we going to say? And what are we going to do? Which is the whole point of this. And this is habit driven because it's the whole point of this is what are we, what do we think about it? And what are we going to do about it? And this is where we live, generally. This is our center of gravity. And then, of course, what we, so yeah, so we get from what we call things to what we're going to say and what we're going to do. So I'm proposing for today. By the way, did I mention that this is a gross oversimplification? I meant to say that at the beginning.

[23:15]

And also my take and my version on Buddha's teaching as I understand it. So I think the point of our practice, did I show you guys that one? Sorry, a lot to manage here. I was not sure how I was going to be able to manage all this. It was good in my mind. point of our practice is to move our center of gravity down, especially Zazen practice. I mean, it's a bigger project than that, bringing practice into our everyday life. But for our Zendo practice, moving our center of gravity down, we're not doing anything. We're also not saying anything. And we can't stop our thinking, but we have some advice about that, like try to think about not thinking for a change.

[24:16]

So I'm going to close that one off. So we move our center here, just becoming more aware of how we're naming things, how we're putting, identifying things, what stories are we making up about them? And you know, there's a Vipassana meditation practice where you do noting, where you actually say the word, you know, thinking, dreaming, angry plotting revenge whatever it is um and so to get a little bit more um bring awareness shine the light on the whole naming process and then to go even further on our likes and dislikes And you can almost feel that kind of moving towards something or moving away from something that's happening here. All the way down to here.

[25:23]

Just seeing, just feeling, just hearing. And just hanging out here as best you can. Of course, this whole process is continuing to happen. It doesn't stop. But where is your, where is our center of gravity? And here, you know, this, this is, it's kind of like it's repose and bliss because this business is kind of actually kind of burdensome. It's driven by habit energy. It's not free. It's, it's, it's, you know, hard. So now I want another little sidebar. You might get down to touch something that's more than you want to deal with, more than you can handle.

[26:26]

A couple of weeks ago, Ellen was telling us, she wasn't saying it was more than she could handle, but one thing she got Ellen Webb, gave the talk a couple of weeks ago, one thing she said was that through meditation, she got in touch with her sadness. So she had a name for herself over here, cheerful, cheerful girl. But when she got down here, she was noticing, oh, there's a lot of sadness here. Now someone might touch something like that and it might feel too painful. It might be too much for you to handle. I don't think that our style of teaching meditation is very gentle. We're not teaching you to go digging around for past trauma or whatever. And it can happen that things kind of bubble up in a way that they can be metabolized more easily. It's possible, but it's also possible you've hit something that you can't deal with. In which case, please get some help.

[27:29]

There's so much knowledge now out there about how to deal with trauma and how to deal with it somatically and release it and metabolize it. So don't go it alone. There's nothing. nothing wrong with you you're not doing it wrong or anything like that it's just something that can happen so another sidebar i want to point out is we don't when we're down here we don't know anything about another person based on or really anything about their appearance right there's you don't know anything all of that is habit-driven coming through this process. So you can hang out down here and, you know, feel some relief from that, you know, caught always by appearances and having to run, figure out what to say and what you're going to say and do and all of that. Just take a break.

[28:30]

Take a break. However, there's huge evolutionary pressure to do this. Huge. So, you know, this, there's no evolutionary pressure to go down here and hang up down here. In a way, that's why it's great, because it's free of habit. There's no habit energy getting you to go down here. There's just what the Buddha told us to do, right? And that's one of the ways it's very freeing. But does this transform habit energy? Does it transform enough habit energy? I already said we have no idea how much X is. But I think that what it does, what it can do, is open up a space.

[29:35]

for something new to come into the equation here. Some new experience like Ellen did. Oh, there's sadness here. And now she's no longer a cheerful girl. She's like a person who's sometimes cheerful and sometimes sad, which is not that big a deal when you say it that way. But we get caught up in these identities. We get stuck there. Not that big a deal usually. So, and then also there's looping, it kind of loops, so I can have a name for myself, like not a racist, and then I can go down here and realize, oh, actually, I am. Actually, I don't have to stop there. It doesn't have to end there because new information is coming in, like how that's nonsense and doesn't make any sense and is a big con job or whatever, you know, so. this sitting down here brings something new into the equation and um okay so now this could be uh blowing this whole thing out of the water maybe but the next the last point almost the last point i want to make is it's possible to connect so this is connecting

[31:01]

No self, no subject and object, just direct connection. It's possible to connect with all these other beings. I found myself starting to think of these as different people as I was preparing for this lecture. So these other beings you can connect with directly, which is sort of like you're not where you're not pushed around by your likes and dislikes. you're just connecting to them whichever it is directly and then you can connect directly like you can oh here you can think oh wow i'm having a big reaction or this or oh i'm really not liking this but not with the words like with just knowing just the knowing and then you can notice you can know how you're creating a story here how you're naming things and how you're building a story you can you can feel it actually you can experience the process and being driven by it.

[32:04]

It's a mysterious thing. And down here, you can, I'm gonna, I'm gonna close this up now. Okay, so down here, you know, you can connect. Our little school has lots of ways to connect with our activity. Right? Connect directly with your activity. We have work practice and we have those meals that I mentioned. So we're always being coached to connect directly, no subject knowledge, you know, just cutting the carrot, just the carrots, you know, just cutting the carrot, whatever it is, you know, just that. And we also have some recommendations about how to connect with, you know, think not thinking, whatever this would be. We don't have anything for this talking. have to say. And that's why we have no talking. That's the solution to that. And that's why we have so many, we're having to learn so much now about our talking.

[33:11]

We have to do so much learning and have so many guidelines, communication guidelines, written communication guidelines, spoken communication guidelines, and training, communication training, training and deep listening, all this stuff. So this is very alive right now in the world. which is good. We're finally learning maybe how to connect directly with how we're talking. It would be good if I could do that right now, but it's a good aspiration. I aspire to. Maybe drinking the water. Thank you. And so I just have one more story, example. It's not an example of, I don't think it's an example of how the life on the planet is going to get saved. But last May, I ended up spending a couple of weeks with my sister-in-law who was having replacement surgery.

[34:23]

And it happened to be right during the NBA playoffs. And she has this beautiful big TV in her bedroom. The Sanakis love to watch in the bedroom. That is like they crawl in with their mother and watch TV or something. There's something very comforting about them. So we're crawling, you know, lying in her bed, watching the games, you know. And I would say I'm a big Warriors fan, maybe not a huge Warriors fan, but I really like the Warriors. You know, they're easy to like for one thing. And I feel connected to them. I wanted them to win and all of that business. But as the games went on, I noticed like this other thing happening, which was I kept connecting with whoever had the ball. You know, and it wasn't something I said. And that's the thing about these things that you set yourself to do.

[35:25]

They're just going to be unexpected happenings. So I kept connecting with whoever had the ball, particularly if they were shooting a basket, and especially at the free throw line. I mean, it was like I was there. No matter which team they were on, I had completely heard anything about the teams. And there was just a person trying to make a basket, and it was really nice. And then I would remember, you know, think, oh, wait, that's the other team's guy. So I was kind of going back and forth a little bit. But it was very, because I can't explain it. It just, it was very compelling. I felt myself. And it's not like I, you know, there's this thing, mirror neurons, where if you've done it, then when you see someone doing it, you're like you're there. But I haven't done it. I haven't. been a good basketball player. But anyway, it happened and it was really nice. And the thing that was nice about it was like, I could go back and forth.

[36:28]

I was, I was very accessible to me to be a Warriors fan and want them to win. And then this other thing kept kind of taking over and then I would go back and it felt very free. It can feel very free. Uh, So that's what I had prepared, and I'd love to hear anything from you guys, any thoughts you have about this, and also you guys out in Zoom land. Ellen. Well, actually I have a couple of thoughts, but I'll just start with one, because I imagine . Speak up, and I will rephrase your question. I can talk pretty much. So you talked about likes and dislikes and you talked about being at Casa Hara and all the other things that were going on. And I just wondered if you could talk a little bit more about, okay, you're going to have likes and dislikes, then how do you hold them?

[37:38]

Yeah, I think it's a million dollar question. How do you work with likes and dislikes? How can you actually work with them? Get into a little more detail about how you work with them. I don't know what to say except to try to connect more awareness. Realize this whole habitual thing. It's the truth. Some people have a hard time because it feels like you're denying something. You're papering over or you're ignoring. You're ignoring something bad. The only way you could not mind happening would be to ignore it. So that's easy to think, right? So it's not that. It's none of those things. It's something else, you know? And I think feeling the driven quality, becoming aware, that this is bigger than you.

[38:38]

It's not your identity. Your identity is not tied. Yeah, I'm a cheerful person. Now you can let go of that. And you're still the same person we always have known. So it's connecting with something bigger, connecting more directly, being kind of copying to it and having that not be the last word. Like, okay, now this is not the last word. This is just one moment in time. Things like that. Maybe other people have good ideas too, maybe more concrete. Mira. So I've heard in Vipassana circles that the place that we could try to stop this and get off is after the preference. That we can't really control. I like this, I don't like that, like you said. But if we could stop it there, and then not go into all the thoughts about it.

[39:39]

Because I think the thoughts and feelings go together actually, not separate, so they're all in part three. Yeah, you might be right. Stop your thoughts and feelings, which is what we practice on the cushion. Every time a thought comes out, we try not to go off on it and make that story. Or at least be aware of it, you know? we try to catch it there so i think we're practicing on the christian with that and the same thing with the feeling we notice the feeling but how much do we want to get plus and give to that feeling to give to that thought and identify with it that's our place of choice do people hear her so she's saying slightly different reframe that that really the choice happens between like my second slide my third between likes and dislikes and where we go with that, wherever we go with that, whether we go just to our story, go to actual actions and words and such.

[40:45]

That's the point where that's the critical moment of where attention can basically transform habit energy, I think is what we're saying. Yeah, right. There's two people on the line. So I'm going to call on Rondi, Charlie. Oh, Laurie, I just wish you were my teacher in high school. That's the first one. I also want to recommend Tony Bennett singing Firefly. Okay. And the last thing I want to say, I've forgotten about the last. We'll give you. That's enough. The visual aids were just dynamite.

[41:48]

Oh, great. Thank you. Thank you, Charlie. Firefly, Tony Bennett. Oh, the firefly. At the dawn, the fireflies go away and the sun. Hmm. And what does that mean to you? I'm not sure how to weave that into. The more things change, the more they stay the same. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Okay. But let's hope that doesn't go all the way to the more humans destroy species, the more they destroy species. Okay, Karen, hi. Hello. I enjoyed your talk and this whole illustration of psychology and the brain. I'm just wondering, it's often so hard for us to catch ourselves in these moments that go by so fast and we make so many mistakes.

[42:59]

Can you say something about steps fit into? Right, right. Well, I would say maybe in two ways, right? I mean, in one way, the precepts are out here in the fourth slide pointing you to like, okay, at least don't do these, at least at the very least. I mean, minimally, don't do these 10 things, right? Or whatever it is. But then also, there's a mysterious process where if you go down to the first one, they're down there, too, somehow. Like, if you're really there, you wouldn't do those things somehow. I don't know how it fits in with the evolutionary piece, you know, but Dogen says, you know, the gate of liberation is open. So you don't need to steal anything because the gate of liberation is open. And if you see that it's down there, you won't need to steal anything, right?

[44:06]

So it's something like that. It's like, but then you have to start out here with like minimally don't kill anybody, you know? And then as you get more settled in yourself and more settled in, and as... That's an important piece, too. Precepts are about how we are with each other. So it's how you impact other people, right? You have to learn about that. So it's all like that. It's complicated. It gets complicated really fast. Thank you. Thank you. Linda. Hi, you. Oh, wow. Lori, I really liked your talk. Thumbs up. Is that a problem? Is that a problem? Depends on where we go with that. It could be where I go with it. Could be where you go with it.

[45:08]

If I don't go anywhere, no problem. Right. I think so. Just let's just leave it at that. When you're cold, be completely cold. Be completely hot. Okay. That's all. That's all? Thank you. Kabir, I'm not seeing the hands here, but okay, Chloe, after Kabir, Chloe. Hi, Lori. You're in the car. I'm in the car. Thank you for this great talk. Norman Fisher in the book, How to Train on Compassion, he said something interesting. He said, all of a sudden we find ourselves in the middle of a thought. We got there and we're in the middle of it. Yeah. And we don't know the beginning of it. I mean, we're just there.

[46:10]

All of a sudden we're in the middle of a thought. And so I've been trying to work with that. And Our number one companion is our breath. It's right there under our nose. Always. Always. And for me, that is the anchor that kind of brings me back to, okay, now I don't have to be in this thought. I'm back to my breath. And the next thing you know, I'm inside another thought. Just a constant dance. So we just come back and pick ourselves back up, come to the breath. So that's been very helpful for me. It's just to becoming more and more familiar and more and more and get to know. Yeah. And don't belittle that moment where you caught yourself, right? I mean, that's really important.

[47:10]

The breath is not more important than that moment where you suddenly became aware that you were caught in a thought. Yes, exactly. That's important. Yeah. It's a muscle. That's a muscle. And maybe before you punch someone in the nose, you'll catch yourself. You know what I mean? That's right. Build that muscle. Not that we're all out there punching each other in the nose, but whatever it is, chewing someone out or even speaking sharply. All those things arise moment by moment. And not beating yourself up for it. Like, that's the art, right? Then you can go too far in that direction. Oh, I'm so bad at this. I never pay. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. See if you can do that. Or if you do that, connect with that as like an activity that's happening. Oh, now I'm beating myself up. That's right. That's right. Nothing is wasted. Nothing is wasted. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. And Chloe. Thank you, Ari.

[48:14]

I'm trying to speak up. Regarding the point about speech and action, one conclusion, is it possible to even speak to people or do things without thinking about it? I guess that's a good, that's good. Yeah, that's good. That's like, that's one of those, what is it or type questions, right? I mean, how? Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry. Is it possible to speak or act or connect with others without Thinking is what you're saying, but do you mean without being driven by habit energy or just without thinking? I mean, the thinking, everything's always happening all the time. Nothing has stopped. So you can't not be thinking. Say a little bit more about what, can you have, do you have an example or anything? How I got to this question was regarding our point about... Maybe in Soto with Zen, there is a lot more emphasis on action rather than speech.

[49:20]

Through this practice, it seems like we also speak through chanting or other things during our practice. And then in some ways, maybe it seems like chanting and doing the ceremony around the meal are similar. Maybe I didn't quite understand what the difference there was about... Oh, that's really, yeah, that's really good. So she's saying, the way she got there is, we do a lot of chanting and in the ceremonies, so we do have voices heard and we're expressing something. Let me finish, but yeah, this will be the last question. Okay, last question. But so... Let's see. So I think what I was really saying is that all, you know, all the meditation schools of Buddhism emphasize the meditating, which is to be aware of your thinking and aware of all these other things.

[50:28]

The soto thing adds the action, right? So that's the soto piece. We all meditate. And then the soto piece adds the action. And yes, we do. It's wonderful. up and start, you know, say the first word you say, Avalokiteshvara bodhisattva, you know, and all the chanting we do that. But the fact of the matter is, I mean, or and I should say, and the fact of the matter is, what we've observed through our 50 years of practicing is that a lot of suffering and pain is continuing to be caused by how we talk. And so It's true that we have some practices that are there to help us with that, but we obviously need more. That's what I'm trying to say, but thank you for the question. Okay, thank you all again for your listening.

[51:31]

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