I'd like to introduce Anila Pema Chodron from Boulder, and I think most of you know as much as I do about her. have asked her to give us a little talk or to tell us something about her practice. And she would like to have a dialogue with us and answer questions and find out what we're interested in. So she'll say something about what she's interested in and what she does. And then we can talk. Thank you for coming to us.

[01:00]

I have actually quite a few old friends here that I haven't seen in a long time. I have to say I have prepared nothing today. It's been a busy day. Think about this, except that I look forward to coming here. Perhaps I'll tell you a little bit about something that happened to me recently, which seems to be of great interest to people. I received the novice ordination of a nun about nine years ago from His Holiness the Gawa Karmapa.

[02:10]

I don't know how many of you know him, but he was the head of the Kargyu lineage, which is one of the major schools of Tibetan Buddhism. And he came to the West three times on a visit, and the first visit I was ordained. And the second visit, he suggested to me that it would be a good idea to receive the full ordination of what's called in the Sanskrit bhikkhuni, or the masculine equivalent is bhikkhu. And so I felt like he was requesting that I should do that. And so I thought that I would. And I asked him how that would occur. And he said when he came back the next time, he would do the ordination. So it's like a seed that had been sown, and the interesting thing was that when he came back the next time, as teachers will often do in this sort of bewildering way of teaching one, he informed me that he was not able to give that ordination, that in fact that ordination had been lost for women in the Buddhist tradition, in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition.

[03:18]

And that was a sort of mind-boggling, since he had prepared me to do it and then told me it didn't exist. So this was obviously something that I guess that he had in mind for me to pursue. And because in exploring it further, it turned out that actually, even though at the time of the Buddha, there was a bhikkhuni ordination, and the first bhikkhuni was the Buddha's aunt who had raised him, so it was somewhat equivalent to his mother, it had died out in all Buddhist traditions except Chinese. And so after a lot of detective work, I found out where the ordination was being held, and actually with the assistance of the Karmapa, found out where the ordination was being held. And I went to Hong Kong and received this full ordination, and that was about a year ago. So the reason this is of interest to people is because

[04:21]

at this time, we're in a time of the transmission of the Buddhist teachings in all the different lineages, from the East to the West. And if people feel the power and significance of this time, and also this sort of open question that is all the different great masters from the Japanese, Tibetan, and Chinese, and Korean, Vietnamese, and all the different traditions, Southeast Asian, come to the West, there's some sense that just as in these different traditions, these different countries, Buddhism developed the flavor of Japan, or the flavor of Tibet, or the flavor of China, in the same way, a seed is being sown here by all these great masters, which will somehow become a flower that we're not quite exactly sure what the manifestation will be of Buddhism in North America, for instance.

[05:25]

But there's a tremendous concern that the pure essence of the teachings, which is deeper and before any cultural or habitual standard at all, that that pure essence of Buddhism should be transmitted properly and correctly and fully to us here. so that we all can fulfill our human potential, which is a sense of our own Buddha nature can be understood fully by each of us as individuals. So this occurs in absolute way, and it occurs also in relative way. And so this is sort of karmic thing that I seem to have gotten involved in is one of the relative things that could be very helpful in bringing full tradition in the monastic lineage for women as the full tradition exists for men.

[06:36]

So there's a sense that, in my own case now, we're translating a lot of the texts, the ordination texts from Chinese into English. And other novice nuns from Tibetan tradition, as well as from Burmese tradition, and I'm sure from other traditions that I don't know about, are going to Hong Kong and receiving the ordination. And what it says in the Vinaya is when a bhikkhuni has held the ordination for 10 years, that when From 5 to 10, the kunis have held this ordination. If they are venerable and worthy of respect, other novice nuns could come to them and receive the ordination. So there is a very real possibility that the full ordination for nuns could be revived for women in the West.

[07:40]

Now, I'm very interested about Zen tradition, because what I'm talking about is an ordination which essentially Hinayana ordination. And even though Tibetan Buddhism is Vajrayana tradition, and Chinese Buddhism is Mahayana tradition, still they have this Hinayana ordination for both men and women. But my understanding is that when the tradition went to Japan, the whole ordination changed its flavor and became more totally Mahayana. And there isn't actually the equivalent in the Zen tradition. Nevertheless, what I feel about this is the significance of this, and what it has made me aware of is that we are sowing a seed, and how important it is that we as practitioners understand ourselves the true essence of Buddhism through our own practice, and that

[08:47]

that we take a larger perspective on our own lives and our own practice, that it isn't just a sense of what we're doing right now, but that what we're doing right now in the very moment actually is sowing seeds for the future. It has to do with us taking a perspective on our own lives from a sense of from birth to death, and beyond that, taking a perspective of what we do and how we understand our practice matters in terms of what will happen in 100 years with Buddhism in the West, what will happen in 200 years, 500 years, that the purity of the tradition or the essence could be brought. And I think, I mean, actually, that's a sort of major thing. And mostly tonight, I'll open it to actually just for us to talk together. And I am very interested in the monastic tradition or lay tradition in Zen practice as well, in terms of this kind of thing.

[10:04]

It seems, I feel personally that, and I think this is a controversial issue, but I feel personally that traditionally in Buddhist traditions there was culturally a prejudice against women and also prejudice against lay people. And that I myself am a woman and monastic person. But I feel like the monastic tradition should be broad. But that it would be good to bring it all without the prejudice, in some sense that there's a real possibility of that, since it's new. I feel that somewhat myself, that the prejudice against women or the prejudice against laypeople needn't be brought along. And my feeling is that all the teachers that I have met and studied with and listened to teach, because of their own awakened attitude, that they leave the

[11:19]

cultural things behind and bring the essence to this country, and Suzuki Roshi being such a perfect example of that, as well as the Tibetan teachers that I've studied with. Some sense of wanting to bring the essence, and curious about this funny new place here in the West, and how to actually bring the essence without necessarily it having to be bounded by the culture. So it seems that the challenge for us as students in the West is not that we're going to be inhibited in any way, but rather how far can we go in going beyond habitual tendencies and inherited beliefs and cultural fixed ideas or identity of any kind. how far can we go in going beyond our identity as women, or our identity as Tibetan Buddhists, or our identity even as Buddhists, or some sense of liberated from preconceived notion of reality.

[12:38]

And I feel that Buddhism is like an invitation to awaken from that sort of sleep of preconceptions, and that the essence of it in that. But then, we always have to come back to how we lead our lives, and how we relate with one another, how we help people that are suffering, how we bring our meditation, or the mind of meditation, or awakened quality right into our ordinary situations. Raising our children, going to work from 9 to 5, or whatever it might be. And all those things, how we do those is not just a selfish thing, so that we can feel better. But actually, it is important for how the tradition will take a seed here and grow properly. So I'd like to just open it up for a conversation about

[13:47]

Until I became aware of you, I really had not even thought much about any difference in transmission ceremonies. I mean, around here, this was one, and it hadn't really even occurred to me. And so I wonder what your sense of... It's an enormous question, but what's your sense of what the difference between the male and the female ordination is? I imagine that in the actual transmission that there's no difference, because that's the nature of transmission, you know. It goes beyond the differences. But then there's also the form. And having gone through the ordination in China, the form was identical for the men and women. We did everything just together, up until the point where we had to repeat our vows. And then there's about 100 more for women. Well, you know, people make a big thing about these hundred as if it's some tremendous, you know, burden that the women are carrying, these extra hundred.

[15:06]

But when you really look at them, They are mostly, you know, have to do with the fact that women menstruate, and there's certain rules about that. And there's rules about that women shouldn't walk out alone, and that was because they would get raped. And there was rules, things like that. They're very practical. There aren't any that say, you know, oh, ye of lower birth and lesser intelligence. Although there are a few that are pretty loaded. I actually prefer to keep a very open mind about how those rules will be regarded in the actual reality situation. For instance, and also it's very curious to contemplate why they came about in the beginning. But when Prajapati, I think that was Buddha's aunt, received the ordination, which at that point was simply her agreeing to keep eight major rules.

[16:09]

They all had to do with the fact that the men would have the higher authority. So there's one which is very hard to swallow, which is that if a bhikkhuni has been ordained for 100 years, and a bhikkhu has just been ordained that day, she should still prostrate to him, but he would never prostrate to her. So, needless to say, for women that's hard to take. But on the other hand, one has no idea, I think, in terms of how those things will actually happen is entirely up to the awakened quality of the men and the women at the time when the ordination begins again. Because Buddhism tends to just reflect time in which it's happening. And there's all the Vinaya rules, which are, in terms of, particularly in the, like, Burma and Sri Lanka, Hinayana countries, Hinayana traditions, very strictly adhered to.

[17:25]

But even there, where they're most strictly adhered to, you just, you know, the ones that don't fit any longer, you just, you don't say, you don't get, you don't amend the constitution, you don't amend the vinea, you just sort of tell all the new monks and nuns that this, this one isn't applicable any longer. And then, and so, it sort of very much works like that. So, how it actually would be translated culturally, I think has a lot to do, has a lot to do with the kind of, intelligence and compassion and awakened quality of the bhikkhus and the bhikkhunis at the time when the ordination takes place. So that in itself seems like a challenge for people not to use these things to develop their aggression or their poverty, but to simply

[18:27]

decide to become fully enlightened in one lifetime, proceed that way for the sake of all sentient beings. But that kind of attitude, that since you have Buddha nature, it exists in you and all others, you might as well take that attitude and not wait around for anything. I'd like to ask some practical questions about practice. especially for the person in my kind of situation, which is having a home and family. What does one do when you have the strictures of the family structure? And the local song house is practicing, say, at 5 in the morning and 5 in the evening. And also, what do you do if the rest of your family is not interested in practice? And what you're interested in is practicing within the context of the Sangha.

[19:34]

But you're on the community with whom you live and work is not practicing. How does one resolve those different aspects? When you say the community, you mean you're in all domestic situations? Yes, plus neighbors and things. I imagine this is a question a lot of people have, how to Well, for instance, in the teachings of Suzuki Roshi, it's such a familiar theme, as well as in the teachings of my own teacher, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. It's such a familiar theme about paying attention and caring about the details of your life. And so much meditation and action, instruction, and sense of caring. For instance, the article in your newsletter this time about Suzuki Roshi talking about his father, and the vegetables, and how caring for all living things, and all things having good in nature.

[20:41]

And a word that comes up a lot in the teachings of Chodron Chodron Rinpoche is developing an inquisitive attitude, some sense of appreciation for all the details of your life, caring about your shoelaces, and your toothbrush, and noticing how you wake up in the morning, and how you relate with your children, and all the little details of your life. And it seems like when I gave talk in Boulder, I talked about mandala principle, and that what was very important, what was in the center of the mandala, that the image was of a mandala, with a center and a fringe. And that it wasn't the sense of hierarchy in the usual sense, but of the interdependence of the center and the fringe.

[21:47]

And what was at the center was very important. That if one's career was at the center, then somehow there would be no journey towards awakening actually happening. If one's family was at the center, there would be no journey towards actually awakening. If one's practice was at the center, there would actually be no journey towards awakening. But if at the center was some sense of meditative perspective, or open mind, curiosity, a sense of Buddha mind, or completely inquisitive mind, always opening, always questioning, but with the questioning that young children have, with wanting to know, taking an interest. Then, once domestic situation became a vehicle for enlightenment, one's career in the student became a vehicle for enlightenment, and one's

[22:58]

on meditative practice, meditation in the vehicle of enlightenment. But all of these things in themselves, if they were actually at the center, could become fixed and out of balance. And we all assume, actually, that practice should be at the center. And in a sense, that's what I'm saying. But we all know how practice can become very out of balance, how some practitioners actually use it as a way to keep themselves secure and to keep away the world. And instead of living fully and opening further each day and beginning to understand the mind of the teacher, practice can become a way of keeping yourself separate. Or it can become a way of becoming more dogmatic. And if it's inquisitiveness and openness that's at the center, which tends to come from practice. That kind of mind is usually only connected with in practice.

[24:04]

But if it is that openness that's in the center, then the potential is everything. Wakingness is there. And the sense of the mark of the practitioner is that one becomes softened and less dogmatic and less actually sort of clinging to one's beliefs and more able to learn from other traditions, more able to learn from other cultures, more able to just have one's own version or point of view constantly undercut in the most positive sense of fully relating, sort of developing a mind which has that kind of flexibility, which otherwise Suzuki Roshi could have never come to San Francisco, and Chokin Trungpa could have never come to Boulder, because the students were such wild savages.

[25:10]

And both of them took the approach of just entering in, and being so inquisitive and figuring out, and then trying to I'll bring out the sanity that both of them see in people. And actually sort of delighting and taming untameable beings. But not like we're going to make you into, or this is wrong, but somehow much more generous. So generous. Teachers are so generous. But on the other hand, never cultivating or furthering one's neurosis or one's bigotry, notions, you know, or one's dogmatic qualities. Always in some kind of sharp or soft way, giving one practice that one can do to connect with one's own awakened mind, and instructing one always to look again, look again.

[26:14]

So that's an absolute point of view, to answer your question. And then more generally, I think you do have to practice daily, even if it's very brief. You have to sort of connect with almost the transmission that's been given to you when you heard first from your teachers how to meditate, some kind of connection. You're inviting your teacher into your domestic situation by sitting and recalling that mind. It's just like, actually, if you light the incense, you're Your teacher's right into your kitchen, into your bathroom, into your bedroom. Inviting, literally, almost physical presence is being invited. So to practice every day is crucial. But maybe one has to be, if one has young children or a difficult scheduling situation, maybe one has to be extremely flexible about how long one can do that or where one can do that.

[27:24]

You have to have always doing it, no matter what. And then, it seems also that as long as there's time, begin to, whenever there's time, provided that it's not going to destroy your family situation, to do intensive practice, like do sashimi once a year, or something equivalent to that, if possible. When the children are very young, sometimes it's actually, you only have one vacation a year. Maybe you have to go to Disneyland. But when they get older, they get used to the fact that what you do once a year is, once a year, my mother or my father sits to shame. You hear them telling their friends. They complain to you, but then you get in touch. Once a year, my mother or my father Four times a year, my mother. So intensive practice is so important.

[28:25]

But I think we, our lives have periods in them. And we also have various individual karmic situations. So today I was talking with a woman who said she was so resentful of her home life. She had this wonderful little baby who, actually, we were together almost the whole day, and the baby never cried. I thought, lucky woman, she wasn't really. But she was feeling so resentful because her husband goes to school and works and refuses to do any housework because he's so completely caught up in the whole situation. And I'm sure that some people are going to be shocked by what I said to her, but I said, I thought she should simply She didn't want to leave her husband. And she had young children. And she was resentful that she never had the time to practice. So resentful. Mostly what was was this strong resentment.

[29:30]

That was the main thing, just this anger. And I said, and she's Japanese, and I said, and she showed me a picture of her grandmother. I said, why don't you just take this period of your life, this next five years, that her husband's going to be doing all this. explore this whole Japanese tradition of womanliness. And why don't you just, here you have this time. You'll never have this time again. Why don't you explore all the ancient traditions of womanliness and make this a very rich time that way. And just instead of resenting the whole thing, why don't you just agree with it and make it powerful and rich. And then five years from now, The children are older, and they're gone, and the husband's through this, and you might want to stick with it. But then you have to move on, and you have to go out and relate to other people. Your life has these natural times of in and out, it seems like. So some kind of lessening that sense of correction, and actually making whatever is happening with you a dharma.

[30:41]

So you were saying a minute ago, Kimon, that in 10 years after the full ordination, you'll be able to, with other knots who are also fully ordained, be able to transmit the ordination yourself. So we have to wait nine years plus in this country, roughly. Does that count back to your novice ordination then? Well, first, the way the manual says it, although people, as the tradition moved from country to country with slight changes. But the way it's stated in the Vinaya is that you take novice ordination and hold it for two years. Or if you were ordained as a young child, either monk or nun, you have to be at least 20. After either two years of novice or the age of 20, if you've been a novice, you've been a novice for a lot of years. If you get 20, then you can be ordained. as a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. So you do have to be a novice first, which makes a lot of sense, because some people think monastic tradition is for them, and then they find out it isn't.

[31:58]

Particularly in Hinayana ordination, which includes celibacy, it's a lot less worldly than the Zen ordination, because it includes celibacy and not being married anymore. You can't continue your domestic situation. And it's much more separate than in the Zen tradition. So obviously, people could be wanting to escape the difficulties of relationship or all kinds of reasons why they think they would like to come and not unlock. So this two-year thing is actually very good. And then you could take full ordination. The slant that I was coming from, though, is in thinking about how the ordination would change in this country when the first group of ordained nuns would be transmitting that. The logistics of that probably would present themselves at the time, but it seems to me you said you had to have at least five, and was it what this country is considered a peripheral country, you said once before?

[33:04]

Not one of the main countries? You said it in a certain way. You mean the West, the North America? Yeah. In other words, you could have five nouns. Oh, oh, yeah. How is this? Oh, what I said was, you know, I've been trying to read and study this. It's a little like reading about ancient Egypt or something. You know, even though it's living tradition in many places, it's difficult to find out exactly how it works. And when the Bikuni tradition actually went to China, it went from Ceylon to China, and because there were no nuns in China, five Salonis Icunes came to China and transmitted the seeds. So it says in there that you should have 10, but that's where the whole thing is fully established. And it's been going on. But there's some assumption that at the beginning, there may not be 10 that exist.

[34:06]

And so you could do five if it's I forget how they say it. Borderland. Borderland. So then if someone were going to be fully ordained, don't you have a couple of novice nuns now? Didn't I see a couple of padding around? One. I saw one. One. I guess it was one of them. Possibly nuns from another country could come over. Oh, sure. Or would the people here have to go to China? Oh, they have to go to China and go through the whole three ordinations. process in China, which is interesting because... Yeah? Doesn't Xuanyuan have a religious ceremony? He does, at the Gold Mountain, the city of 10,000 Buddhism. Well, this is interesting. He does. And I would very much like to go and take part in that, if he would allow me to. Do you have communication with them at all?

[35:10]

Not for the past 10 years or so. They are very difficult to communicate with. Any of you here have a relationship with City of Tampa? Yeah, I have found it incredibly difficult to try to make any kind of contact with them. But I don't know why, but everybody, well, I can sort of sense why. Everybody wants to go to where they feel that it's probably closest to the origin, because as you know, that in Buddhism, particularly Tibetan and Japanese tradition, there's a lot of emphasis on direct transmission. And so to go to Taiwan or Hong Kong is considered the most direct transmission. I guess there's some fear that Master Wa's might not be, although that's his whole thing, is how Authentic it is you know and they are actually doing it there And I'd like to go see how they are But we're all being sent across the ocean And Then there's other things which is translating the ordination texts as I said and also learning how to perform them now he could be if he if

[36:35]

Like, for instance, if I could make a connection with them, which was a friendship, which I have a feeling I would have to be very committed and actually sort of go be with them for a while. And it's hard to do that because it means you never get to do your own practice. They do a lot of circumambulating and chanting and prostrating. It's a different flavor than Zen or Tibetan sitting practice. I mean, I would have to make a good relationship with them, and then maybe possibly they'd be willing to teach us. You have to, you know, ordinations, you have to know where to stand, and when to hold, hand somebody which thing, and when to bow, and when to walk out of the room, and when to look into the room, and when to light the incense, and all the details. We have to learn that, and at this point, the idea is to learn it through time. I guess if you give that 10 years to learn it. Yeah, it's nice to have that time. In Shakyamuni Buddha's time, the ordination is very simple.

[37:39]

So, since then, it's become more elaborate. I think that the Zen tradition has simplified it. Back more to... Back, yeah. Made it more... Six feet. How long does it take? I don't know. Well, actually, we don't do it in Zen center. We don't really do it correctly. And it should take about a week. And there should be a lot of meditation. But this is a year she was doing it and didn't feel that we had the time or the kind of the setup to do that.

[38:48]

But I think that Baker, she wants to do it more correctly at some point. Well, now the bass is played and it would be good. I think a lot of people feel that that it's good to go back to the original traditions as much as possible, because of the purity of the transmission. Because there's so much power in transmission. It's just like a gift that's given to you. And that you can, once you've had transmission of any kind, through your own practice, you can reconnect with that sort of sense of lineage and power and awaken this. It's like a gift that's given to us. there is a lot of feeling that the more closer to time of Buddha. But on the other hand, the wonderful thing about Buddhism is that it's always fresh. And the forms are ways of connecting us with our Buddha nature.

[39:57]

Somebody once said, it's not like teaching a dog to talk. It's more like waking up your own inherent nature part of which is inseparable from you at any rate. It just needs to be sort of reconnected. And people sense that all the time. But on the other hand, there is always needing to help ourselves. Were you or Dan alone with them, or was there a separate ceremony in the same space of time? It was all the same up until the actual time where we had to, which is like the, it wasn't exactly the end of the ceremony, but it was almost the end. Then we went in in separate groups. What you do actually is you go, traditionally you would go and you would be asked all these questions.

[41:01]

about your sexuality, a lot of them about sexuality, like, are you a hermaphrodite? Do you have the sexual organs of a man and a woman? Are you a demon? It really gives you some wondering about the times. Yeah, ancient questions. And then some very practical ones like, do you have your parents' permission? And are you 20 years old? And do you have any debts? You can't, you know, they're left behind. And, are you crazy? And there's, I forget the number, but there's quite a lot of these questions. And traditionally, it was like a very, like a true questioning. They would actually ask you these things, and they would actually, I think, examine you, like all these things. And then... Man, woman? Huh? This is just something that goes on for the woman? No, man, woman. It's part of the ordination. But now it's formalized.

[42:05]

But at that point, we went into separate rooms. And I think those questions were actually identical for the men and women, because there weren't any that referred to if there was anything different for men and women. Actually, I'm sure they were the same, because I was brought back all the texts. And then we would go upstairs, and at that point, we would recite all our vows. And some of them, those are the major ones that were the same, but then there's different ones, more for women. And then we got together again and went on with the conclusions. First, I just want to add that Korean Zen is different from Japanese Zen. It's Himiyo's style. I was wondering about that. Yeah, it is. And I think Vietnamese is closer to Korean, too. I was trying to think something. In Korea, there are a number of Western women, some who have been fully ordained for five, six, seven years.

[43:15]

And I was wondering about what the possibility was. I don't know if it had to be American women or any Western woman or any fully ordained who could initiate this practice of fully ordaining novices in America or anywhere in the West? You mean whether it could be a mixture, say, of three Americans? Oh, yeah, yeah. As a matter of fact, I suppose it remains to be seen. A lot of things remain to be seen. Who knows? But of the, say, three women that I know, in strictly Kargyu Tibetan tradition that have received this ordination. One is English, one American, and one is German. Because one of the things, it seems like we're just at the beginnings of the possibilities where the sex of the person might not matter as much as it has that we're coming out of heavily patriarchal times.

[44:29]

And that that's the potential. This is the seed that you're talking about now. Yes. And that seems like very much up to us. I mean, for instance, it seems a tremendous challenge not to get to use the situation to build our aggression. But you know, some sense of vulnerability and openness. And getting back to like some of the Sutras have these wonderful stories. I think they're all Mahayana sutras, but about a realized bhikkhuni, or realized woman, teaching. And then the monks say, if you're so realized, how come you don't have a man's body? And then the whole essence of the teachings being that in the process of the dialogue, what's pointed out is it's the identity to one's womanness or maleness, which is actually hindrance to recognizing one's Buddha nature.

[45:34]

And you're actually using this vehicle of prejudice against women to undercut a prejudice and see a bigger picture. So I was telling about one the other night, where I actually forget the name of the sutra, but the woman changes it. But it's a dialogue, I think, with Shariputra, And she changes form with Shariputra. He becomes her in her body and she becomes him. And the sutra says that he attains a full realization at that point because he realizes that it has nothing to do with the form, but with identity with the form as obstacle to full awakening. And then they change back again. And she already understood that. So actually, you know, it's that idea of taking seemingly prejudice or obstacles from a Buddhist point of view. Sometimes that's where you can learn the most. If a Buddhist practitioner who has a strong aspiration to wake fully and help sentient beings gets fixated and stuck, sometimes that might be the greatest learning point, because there is this aspiration, but because of some kind of karmic inhumanness.

[46:52]

You get completely fixated on this is the only way or some kind of, you know. And then teacher comes along or teaching situation comes along. And because it was so solid, one is gone. One actually sees true state of mind. Prejudice actually could be tremendous vehicles for waking up if one has that aspiration to do so. How have you been in touch with this Japanese woman that you were talking about? Yeah. How's she doing? It was just this morning. Oh. I don't know. But it struck her as a great idea. Oh, I see. And she already, you see, has tremendous inclination that way. She's already into Ikebana and tea ceremony. I mean, she has a lot of connection with her heritage. But it wasn't occurring to her that

[47:53]

it could actually make her situation much more enjoyable and rich. And she could actually learn a lot that way. When you were talking, I think I understand generally what you were talking about. But can you give a more specific example of how to summarize what you were saying, to use her resentment in a certain way to bring out her willingness only, say, Well, not exactly to you. What did you exactly mean by that, actually? Well, she had just shown me this picture of her grandmother, who was this beautiful woman in a kimono, very traditional, sitting with her son next to her, who was in a Western three-piece suit. And this picture was taken probably in 1919 or something like that, in Japan. And somehow it just occurred to me that not to use her resentment, but actually to soften her resentment, or that sense of... She felt so completely, which is a very familiar feeling, trapped in her situation.

[49:05]

And it occurred to me that she had a lot of accessibility to finding out the art of... Since she was there a lot of the time with her children in her household, and in terms of cooking and... working with the house and I mean, I don't know how far deep the tradition is. I just suggested she explore this whole tradition that's in her heritage of womanliness, which is very rich in the Japanese tradition. And even explore, you know, ask her old relatives and things about traditional Japanese families and how they were set up and actually start to explore that whole thing and bring it into her own life with a lot of inquisitiveness and curiosity about how it could enrich her life. And how it could be applicable to the 20th century.

[50:09]

Generally encouraging her to explore. Yeah, to explore the best of a sort of lineage that she was already part of. And Mostly what it has to do with, I think, is lightening the sense of resentment or grudge that one has against the life that one is leading. And then, as Suzuki Roshi said this so often, there's some sense of, you know, isn't the situation actually, except in extreme cases, it's often the situation doesn't have to change. It's one's perspective or one's state of mind that changes. As we know, for instance, it's very familiar that two people go through the same kind of very similar situation in their lives. For instance, one of my mother's oldest friends has always been a tremendous inspiration to me. She and her brother were abandoned when they were children, and they spent their whole early life in foster homes.

[51:17]

And then she had an early marriage to someone who she's still married to. But it was never a relationship of passion, but more just arranged. It was always, you could say, boring by exciting standards. And then her second child is retarded. And he's 25 or 28 years old, and he's hopelessly retarded. And she's bringing him up all her life. We know people whose situations are sort of like that. And they are bitter and resentful. And Mary, for some reason, but that's what happened with Mary, is she appreciates everything. Because she realizes how bad it could be. You give her something, she, I've never eaten this before. This is wonderful. She just sort of, and you take her sometimes and she says, This is so interesting.

[52:18]

Look at this da [...] da. And it's somehow, because it was hard, she appreciates when things are, she appreciates the littlest thing. So what's the difference? Just some sense of inquisitiveness or appreciation that she naturally had. But people can change their situation a lot. And it seems like that's the basis to this. At least to approach one's problems like in problem-solving, say. That's the kind of algorithm you need to bring things together that seem like they're de-conflicting, but they're really not. Some of us talked before about frequently people talk about seeming conflicts in family situations. Really, there's ways to Integrate them or bring them together with practice. Practice is a very key thing because really what it comes down to is how you regard yourself.

[53:25]

And this is a question of Maitri. Is the word Maitri used in Zen tradition? Loving kindness towards oneself? Yeah. The word Maitri. Not the word Maitri. Loving kindness. Loving kindness towards oneself. I mean, it's that developing that attitude of... that first comes maitri, or loving-kindness, towards oneself, and the natural extension of that, or that just a natural extension of that is compassion, and that as long as you haven't made a sort of completely good relationship with oneself, I suppose that's to know oneself is to forget oneself. As long as you're sort of everything is either seen as a threat and you have to protect yourself or as a sort of reward and you have to sort of congratulate yourself.

[54:28]

There's always this defense system that actually keeps you separate and actually maintains duality and maintains, you know, that's where passion, aggression, and ignorance come from is that sense of of having to keep the world reliable and have it not attack you or try to keep it comfortable. So Maitri, or developing a completely good relationship with yourself, is actually the key to this whole thing. And we have tremendous freedom, that's the point, tremendous freedom to discover our own Buddha nature. And that's the other thing, which I'm sure runs through all Buddhist traditions, is that there's no suggestion that you should become somebody else, or that you should try to be better, but more sense of settling down with what you have, and that being enough, and that the wisdom is actually inherent in you already.

[55:39]

And you could discover that by simply sitting down with yourself, and being there fully, which I suppose is one description of Zazen and sitting meditation. One sort of way of looking at it. I don't think I'm trying to record a particular answer for you, but what I'm trying to get at is for anybody, actually, what would be another example of how somebody, maybe

[56:42]

Maybe you had to examine how somebody else solved a particular problem. That is a base. That is alpha. Can you think of anything else? Do you have any evidence? That's how we were practicing, how we're trying to look at our lives in practice. But what's specifically some example for us to refer to? Well, I think in Buddhism, the example is Bodhisattva, who is not so much concerned with solving his personal problems as with dissolving his personality, or his egoreality, so that you don't have you don't attract so many problems to yourself. So, you know, in one sense, people come to practice in order to help themselves.

[57:53]

But when you see what practice is, you kind of transfer that helping yourself to helping other people. And then when you come to really understand Buddhism, You just put all your energy into Buddhism. And you're not worried about yourself. You're not worried about other people so much. But you take care of practice itself. And the practice takes care of you. And it takes care of other people. So the point is to not worry so much about yourself. Put your energy into practice. When you really can forget your problems, You don't create so many problems. I know it's easy to say that. But what you're saying is like, if you just kind of take care of not emphasizing your own personality so much, your own problems, things kind of resolve themselves.

[58:59]

Well, there are two ways. I know that may not even be your focus, but that's what actually happens. The thing is that until you actually do turn to practice, you're always wondering. Very few people actually do turn to practice, even though they're around it. To be able to just drop your stuff and enter into practice, until you can actually do that, you still have a lot of problems. When you say practice, do you mean, like, all the time? State of mind, or formal? What I mean is what you direct your activity to. You know, how you live your life. Yeah. Well, there are various practices in Buddhism, you know. But for us, we can say zazen, sitting zazen, and having it some.

[60:06]

a dialogue with the teacher. And that sense of that extending into hyper-relatedness. And that extends, of course, out into all your activity. So that whatever you're doing is practice. So you don't really have a personal life in a sense of, like you were describing, the mandala. Everyone has a kind of mandala. And something's in the center of that mandala. and other things are in the periphery. And if your career is in the center of the mandala, then you have a lot of problems. You're always attracting problems. As long as practice itself is in the center, even though there are problems, the problems are practice. Yeah, that's right. Everything becomes... Everything becomes practice instead of becoming problems. Instead of becoming suffering, it becomes practice. which is the same thing I meant when saying it becomes vehicle for waking up.

[61:14]

Same thing, it's like, then actually a sense of obstacle is like a challenge to further wake, yeah, opportunity. And obviously that changes your life tremendously in terms of some kind of affirmation. rather than, I use that word a lot, but the sense of grudge is so prevalent, you know. And then there's also the thing which is that actually we all are incredibly fortunate. Our human birth is an extremely good one, you know, in terms of our physical situation and our health and that there's, at this point in time, no war raging around us and we have all these freedoms People don't come and knock on the door and take us away, which happens in many countries in the world. And not only that, we've heard the Dharma and met great teachers who are accepted as the students and are willing to work with us.

[62:20]

And, you know, it's... Śrīla Prabhupāda was saying that for Buddhists at this time, he felt that it was very equivalent to the time of the Buddha himself. that there were so many great masters teaching the students in the West now. There was some kind of freshness. And he felt that, he said, you all get so caught up in your individual sense of problem, he said, but you should realize that in the sense of sowing the seeds. And he said, you know, probably 500 years ago, because some sense of things have fallen apart and something new could be born. And that's actually the time. They say that one of the marks of the Buddha is that he chooses his time of birth. And so in the script, in the sutras it says that, or shastras rather, it says that Buddha chose that time because of the fact that things were unsettled and there was some kind of questioning and openness.

[63:27]

And this is a similar time. I'm wondering how you feel about whether coordination for men and women should be different. Sometimes I feel like it's very easy for law enforcement to help where there are many, many more working men and women. And I don't know if there are many, many more students that are practicing over one million women. What you say is completely true. You can't identify with yourself. But it seems like it's so easy for women to get their identity from men. And where there are very few female models, it seems very often that the message that you're completing yourself just doesn't... they stop trying to be like men. I know, it's true.

[64:37]

So what would you, what would be your feeling about that? That it should be separate? See, the thing is, we don't like these societies, and we've been around for a long time, and spirit, you know, tends to, well, in terms of something like ordination, it's very ancient. I don't, well I don't actually know where our ordination came from. Our ordination, Zen ordination is, you know, it's not so much, people think of when you take precepts, that you take on all these prohibitions and rules. But actually, in Zen ordination, there are ten prohibitory precepts.

[65:39]

which says you don't do these things. And there are six precepts which you do do. So it has a positive aspect and a negative aspect. But precepts in Zen is like a guideline. It's not rules. There are no rules. There are just guidelines. And precepts is something that is your awareness of what you do on each moment. And there's no one telling you what you should do and what you shouldn't do. But it has to come from inside of you. It comes from inside out, and it's real precepts.

[66:46]

And the precepts you take are a way of bringing that out, a kind of catalyst to bring out your desire to act correctly in every situation, and to know what to relate to, how to relate to it, one-mind precepts. Since you are connected with everything, you should appreciate everything and are everything. And in the ordination, did the men and women just take it equally? Exactly the same. I would think that would be better. But you're saying something else. No, I don't have an answer. Yeah, well, men and women's precepts in Zen is exactly the same. And, you know, even lay precepts in Zen center are the same as priest precepts.

[67:51]

But although, you know, traditionally, lay people take, in this case, five precepts, and monks take 16, but for some lesser amount, Everybody takes the same precepts. There's no real distinction made between lay people and monks. This is the way Suzuki Roshi set it up for his students. No distinction really between monks and lay people as far as precepts. I actually read something recently by Suzuki Roshi where he said that he expressed some curiosity in terms of how lay and monastic were going to sort of evolve in the West. And he felt that it would be different. And he said something about maybe we could come up with some clothing or new rules or something. I can't remember, but I just, I think it's actually in my Beginner's Mind.

[68:55]

It's right at the last, maybe the last essay or something. But he left it as sort of open question. But he felt like it was going to evolve in some kind of different way. It will evolve in its own way. In Japan, he said there were monks, or monastic people, and there were lay people. And he felt that somehow the West was going to be more a combination. And I feel that, too. For instance, Tibetan tradition, very interesting. From Bloom, she was just telling me that in Tibet, lay people I was complaining, and I was saying, I think we're all very sloppy, and we don't practice enough. He said, you're doing very well. I said, I can't understand. He said, you're all so much harder on each other than I am on you. He said, you're doing very well. He said, in Tibet, many people just didn't practice. And then you went off to this monastery, and you became a nun or a monk, and then you practiced.

[69:58]

He said, here, people are doing it all. And he said, that's very good. keep encouraging people in their wakefulness and their sincerity and their good practice and continuous state of mind, bringing practice into everything. Also, you know, you should bring your problem up to your teacher. Definitely. Especially right now. Who's your teacher? Seems like that's completely right. I mean, if one has a sense of imbalance or injustice or out of sorts or anything, one has to be extremely brave and be willing to be a fool, I think.

[71:01]

And maybe one is a fool and maybe one is right on. And otherwise, there can be no healthy seed if people aren't willing to for the best of their ability, express their point of view, you know, with less, you know, try to minimize sense of grudge. But, I mean, definitely try to minimize sense of grudge. Well, sometimes it's going to come right along with your truthfulness. And that's why you have to be willing to be a fool. But if people are cowards, then we're sowing seeds of cowardness. And we get a lopsided Buddhism. based on this group's point of view, the bolder one's point of view, and the cowards never spoke out, and maybe, you know, if the cowards had said something, then we'd have less lopsided. So you have to, it's a good way to become egoistic, isn't it? True experience of egoism is when you put yourself on the spot. It's really wonderful what you said, and I think that, you know, we get so concerned about what other people will think, what our teacher will think, or what other people in the Sangha will think, and that we tend to, we think that the Sangha and the teacher ought to be our support and ought to give us the answers and the support we need because it's all so hard.

[72:32]

And that actually, as long as we think that way. And it's not true Buddhism. If nothing will happen, and that we had this opportunity, when you were talking about the woman with the child, I thought that was a wonderful answer you gave her. And, I mean, it takes a woman teacher to give that kind of answer, I have to admit. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. It makes it easier. It makes it easier to take the answer. Or something, but I think we can think of it. Suzuki Roshi would say to his wife. Maybe you'd go tell her that. You know, when Suzuki Roshi said that kind of thing to us, he said things like that to me, and I thought, oh dear. You know, it's so Japanese.

[73:33]

And it wasn't many years later that I could appreciate that he really saw that this was you know, just what I needed to do. And here I was in this situation, and I was trying to escape it. And he was trying to point me, you know, just right at where I was. And that was very helpful to me as time went on. And a lot of things that would come up, you know, I would keep trying to think, you know, well, how could this be practice? This doesn't look like practice, you know? And so how could it be practice? We get fooled by the forms, I think. We think that the form is the thing. And that, you know, the people with the robes, or the people in the window, or the people sitting on the pillows, that that must be what it is. And we get really stuck by that. And so often, you know, we get angry with our teacher because he doesn't understand something, or we think he doesn't understand something.

[74:40]

Or we go with an attitude that, oh, He's not going to like this. This is what I think. He's not going to like it. And he's going with that ending, sure enough. Sure enough, they're not going to like it. They're not going to like it. And it's very hard to somehow present something that you think, oh my God, I might be crazy. This is how I see it, and I just can't get around it. And say, well, this is how I see it. And maybe you are crazy. People will tell you that. But it's very important. Maybe you just have to articulate it anyway and say it out loud. Yeah. And it takes some kind of bravery. And I say, you have to be willing to be a fool, because sometimes you don't realize how silly something is until you present it to your teacher. On the other hand, sometimes you don't realize how profound something is. And it's very important. Cowards.

[75:42]

We don't want to perpetuate cowards. Or theistic, that slightly theistic, you know, idea of feeling that someone else is going to do it for you. That's probably the largest obstacle of all. On the other hand, you know, it's not like you're building yourself up. Well, yeah, on the one hand, we lose an opportunity to find out for ourselves. And on the other hand, you look to your teacher for some sort of confirmation that you're on the right track. So I think there's some kind of a built-in paradox there, you know, and so if your teacher thinks you're off the track, you know, and it's consistent, you know, you know, maybe you need another teacher, or, you know, maybe, you know, you're just Maybe you need to get back on the track. Maybe you need to get back on the track. Maybe you're just really, you know... Going off in one direction. Isn't there a built-in paradox with ordination entirely?

[76:45]

It's form doesn't matter and... I was also aware that you, in telling your story, said that you did it because Karma told you to. Oh, well, not originally. Not the first time. But, see, I didn't realize that there was any full ordination. I mean, I took nuns' ordination for me that was becoming nun and I didn't have any sense that you could go further than that. I'd like to ask a sort of foolish question. Why ordination? I don't know. I don't really know. I figure that that's going to be one of the major questions of my life is finding out. I just know that I was drawn to that. And for me, it represented a one-pointedness, or directing one's whole energy towards practice, rather than having it, you know, and this is what I mean, formal practice.

[77:49]

That's what I had in mind, anyway. Directing my whole energy, sort of like a passion for wanting to find out, or to wake up. and at being at a sort of junction in my life where I could have, for instance, chosen to remarry and then start that whole comic stream or, you know, this other thing of ordination and actually purposefully wanting to just go for understanding and that seems a straight path. On the other hand, that hasn't been actually what's happened with me because I mean, in some sense that is what's happened, but it hasn't been like I preconceived it because there's no monasteries at this point, and no monastic sangha for me at this point. So in fact, I've found out much more about what you were talking about in terms of it all being practice. And that's why I feel I have a real good understanding of lay practitioners' practice, even though at this point I'm no longer, I'm not taking ordination. But I also can see the tremendous value of

[78:54]

of a monastery where one could wholeheartedly simplify everything to formal practice and just do that. And that the environment would be extremely strong and communicate a great deal to anyone who walked into it. And that lay practitioners could come there and take temporary precepts and actually or an abbreviated period of time, and then bring that discovery into their whole life. So that's sort of how I see it. And I think that it changes during historical periods. In this historical period, there's so much chaos and suffering and political unrest and destruction, you know, that seems like Even people who choose a monastic way have to commit themselves to extending out.

[80:02]

Everything that's understood has to be shared with another. Whereas at other periods of time, it was whole times where the most appropriate action seemed to be sort of to retreat. And people in caves and monasteries and some sense of retreat. And at that time, that was the most appropriate. Did both men and women have their heads burnt? No. And what was that in the ordination? In the Chinese ordination, there's three parts to it. You first take novice precepts, even if you've taken them before, and then you take the full bhikkhu or bhikkhuni ordination, and then you go on and take what they refer to as the Mahayana ordination with Mahayana precepts. And in order to prove your sort of capacity to take on suffering of sentient beings. Your head is shaved in you and they burn incense on your head, either three, six, nine, or twelve.

[81:07]

And the incense is burned and it burns right down into your skull and leaves scars. So that, and I think this is also true in Korean. He doesn't have Vietnamese, it's true. So in certain traditions, if you look at the heads of the monks or the nuns, you see these scars on their hands. And when they take Bodhisattva, in China, in the Pure Land of Chan tradition, if they take Bodhisattva without lay people, you see these burns on their arms. We get burns on our arms when we take the five and the ten precepts. So that's part of the same tradition. Well, ask him. Maybe they do burn their hands, if I'm fully ordained. I don't think so. So I don't like that particular part of it. I really found that that was the most difficult thing. It went against the grain so much, but, you know, it wasn't a big deal.

[82:10]

So you contemplated before you did it? No, I didn't know until I got there. Just before I went, one of my friends in Boulder said, You know, I'm reading this book on... And, you know, they do things like burn candles on their heads and cut off their fingers. And I... What am I getting into? So, when I got there, I said, very brightly, you know, saying, you don't burn candles on your heads anymore. And they said, no. Simon, did you get three, six, nine? Three, of course. But Joseph, more or less. A person can choose. Three, six, nine. And then they, of course, because of being part of their tradition and much had a lot more meaning for them, most of them chose twelve because the more

[83:13]

but not, you know, not unbearably. And you're chanting and it's all ritualized and, you know, there's a tremendous form to it and everything. So, instead of screaming, you're chanting the name of Buddha. Loudly. May I be transmitted here? Your initiative? Possibly? I don't think so, you see, because But I don't think so because in the, except in the Chinese tradition, they just stopped with the Bikuni ordination. That was added in China and transmitted, I think, to Korea and Vietnam. I'm not really sure. I don't, I'm not really sure about the, I mean, I'd love to go to all these different organizations. Yeah, now he does, because that's the same tradition. He's definitely in that, definitely in that transition.

[84:23]

As a matter of fact, one time he opened his, he pulled up his shirt, and he had this scar that went completely, where he burned beads. They are just really into that. They showed me, it's like, just as if I wasn't nervous enough, a few days before the ordination ceremony actually began, a monk visited from Taiwan and they said, look, he gave his finger for Buddha. He had burned his finger right down. You know, it's just a different, I mean, some people, some people, if you've never sat in the Zen Dojo and you hear that they hit you with a stick, you say, oh my God, that's terrible, they hit you with a stick. So you can't really judge traditions from outside the tradition actually too well. But now I do anyway. So that tradition you do a hundred thousand prostrations and, you know,

[85:24]

There's a little taste of this in all the traditions of purifying yourself. This is a different question. Do you feel that period of intensity? or do you need a period where you're very intensely practicing? I think, ideally, you should, every year, as much as possible, have intensive practice, as well as daily practice. You know, like you said, like it's a shame, but do you need a period, you know, like a year period, or a two year period, you know, monastic type situation? I don't know. Traditionally, it was always built in that you actually took time out.

[86:33]

I mean, for instance, in Burma and Sri Lanka and so forth, all men take, was it a year? I don't know how long, and become monks for a period of time. And in Tibet, a third of the population were in monasteries. It's primarily a monastic tradition. And what was the situation in Japan? Well, it depends on the times, you know. In the time of the most sort of flourishing. way it is now. It's very much of a family business. And so the monasteries are run for the people who go to the monasteries are the children of the people who belong to the

[87:45]

to the monastery for two or three years, anywhere from a year to three years. Then they come back and take over the family temple. There are lots of little hierarchical small temples, larger temples in the monastery. There are many, many small temples, and the small temples administer the families that belong to them. And so the priests get their training, at the monastery, and then they come back out to take over the... eventually inherit the temples, and that system keeps rejuvenating itself. So there are quite a number of monks that go to the monastery and then come back out. So the monastery is not a place where you stay, but it's a place where you train. That seems appropriate for our times, actually. Well, it was interesting. I had a very interesting conversation just before coming out here with men that I work with.

[89:02]

One of the jobs I do in Boulder is planning practice and study programs for all the different Dhammadhatus and training the meditation instructors and developing study programs. You know, ways of making the dorm accessible to New York City and Philadelphia and all over the different places. And one of the major tukus in the Cargieland which was visiting Bollner, his name was Situ Ramesh. I don't know if any of you met him when he was here. But his visit, he talked a lot about retreats and intensive practice and things. And I got such a longing to want to just take time out and do a very, very long retreat. So my friend and I were talking, and it was very interesting. He said he also felt exactly that same longing. He said, but you know, I have this feeling that for myself, and then I felt this was true for myself as well.

[90:05]

He said, I have a feeling for myself, and he's a very strong practitioner, has a very strong daily practice, and is completely dedicated to practice and study. He's as close to a monk as you could come without being one. And he said, I have a feeling for myself that by keeping up my daily practice and doing short retreats, that my practice is deepening more by staying out here and having to work with people all the time, and being put on the spot. And so the challenge of being able to communicate dormant to others, and the challenge of domestic situation, and the challenge of just being here Your Buddhism, your theory is constantly being challenged. And so he said he felt for himself that that was the best way for him to deepen his practice. And he said, maybe at some point I'll get to a point in my practice when my practice will be so realized that then I should go on a long retreat and deepen it further.

[91:10]

But he felt that actually being in the world was the best way for him to attain realization deep in his realization or life in himself. And when he was saying it, even though I had this wanting so badly to go on retreat, I sensed that that was the same for me. But does he sit like hours a day? He sits... He has a family and works... He doesn't have to come to work until noon at where we work together at Bhajadattu. So he practices usually from one to three hours a day. But not, he can't always do that, but generally he practices from one to three hours a day. But he has a very meditative sort of mind, and he's very much one of these people that, working with him, you sense the possibility of everything being, that all, everything is practice. He just sort of sees it that way. Therefore, he actually, he experiences challenge as practice, and rough edges as practice,

[92:16]

things not agreeing with him as practice. Because of his attitude, how he's dealing with it all. Yeah. Yeah. It warms my heart. Yeah, I love working with him. Because he's very inspiring. I love him. Because we have to do all this, you know, kind of, you know, practical kinds of things all the time, prepare programs and administration and everything. He's always, you know, he'll always say things like, Come on, that's just obstacle mentality, or something like that. And then he switches it around and, you know, he instead of just, he just has a way of seeing everything in practice and being able to communicate that. And that's what taught me a lot. Well, maybe. Thank you very much, Pam. I think the main point is don't cheat yourself.

[93:23]

Don't cheat yourself.

[93:28]

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