Mm. Hello.

[03:50]

Can you hear me in the back? Almost. How's that? Mr.

[05:00]

centers Sangha, near, and far. This morning, our speaker is Karen Sundheim. Hi, Karen. Karen has practiced at the Berkeley Zen Center since 1976, received lay ordination at BBC in 1996, and was shoe-sewed in 2006. Under Sojin Roshi's guidance, she received lay entrustment in 2010. During her nearly 48 years at BCC, she has held many practice positions, including Sushine Director, Tenzo, and Librarian. She is currently President of the BCC Board, leads the Dharma Study Group, and has taught Dharma in prisons and libraries. She worked for many years at the San Francisco Public Library, where she was Program Manager of the James C. Hormel LGBT Center. She also held a Zazen period at noon time for people to come, patrons, locals, and fellow workers, cat workers.

[06:49]

And it's still going, I believe. In some form. In some form or another. Let me ask you this for another. She lives with her wife, Nancy, and her cat, Bella, in Oakland. Please give a warm welcome on this cool morning in Berkeley. to our speaker today. Thank you, Ross. Thank you, Karen. Thank you all for coming out on this wet day. And I'd like to particularly welcome anyone who's here today for the first time. Welcome. Today, I'd like to talk about a topic that our abbot, Hozan Roshi, asked me to talk about. I saw him a few days ago in his rehab place, and I asked him, what would you like me to talk about? So he said, oh, there's a line in the Heart Sutra I want you to talk about.

[07:57]

And he was saying, what is it? He was trying to remember, and I knew exactly the line. because it's a line that a lot of people get drawn to and confused by. It's actually two lines. A bodhisattva depends on prajnaparamita and the mind is no hindrance. Without any hindrance, no fears exist. So we just had a class on the Heart Sutra, so I'm not going to go through a lot of explanation and detail, but not all of you were there. I'll just say a couple things. Number one, a bodhisattva depends on prajnaparamita, which means that we abide in wisdom.

[09:00]

Prajnaparamita means perfect wisdom. So this is not a bunch of intellectual ideas. It's not about being able to accumulate knowledge in books, but it's more, it's an awakening. And so when this awakening happens, the mind is not hindered, and therefore there's no fear. So I'd like to talk a little bit about what the hindrances are. The Heart Sutra is a Mahayana Sutra, which means it came a little bit later, and the focus of the Mahayana

[10:05]

Buddhist was a little different from the early Buddhists. The early Buddhists liked to talk about the five hindrances. I really got a lot of help by studying them and watching them. So the five hindrances are, one is greed, which is like desire, constantly wanting something. So imagine that you're sitting zazen, and there you are with your mind. And a lot of people are hoping for something nice to happen in their minds. But often what we encounter are our hindrances. So there's desire or greed. wanting food, wanting company, sexual desires, wanting a cookie.

[11:14]

You know, it can be little things, big things, but preoccupation with desires. Then, the second one we often call hate or aversion, which is the opposite of grasping, it's more like wanting to get rid of whatever it is that's coming up in the mind. So, aversion includes hate, the need to criticize people. You know, you might be sitting zazen, you don't like the way the person's breathing next to you, or somebody makes a lot of noise when they come in. You know, that kind of criticism, but aversion also covers Fear. Fear is a pushing away of things. I don't want that. And also sadness is too. We don't want losses, for example.

[12:20]

So the third hindrance is what we call sloth and torpor. That tendency, you sit down for zazen and you just start nodding out. falling asleep. And you can see this. We're lucky in this practice. We have a specific posture that takes effort. So if you really keep your posture, you're not gonna fall into sloth and torpor. But if you ever, from this seat, you can kind of see who's experiencing sloth and torpor. The shoulders sag, the mudra falls apart, you know, that kind of thing. And the fourth one is restlessness. This desire just to not being able to keep one's attention on a particular thing and feeling jumpy and wanting to just get out of here.

[13:23]

And then the final one is doubt. So experience doubt. For example, why am I even bothering to do this? And what's the real benefit of this practice? And are what the teacher's saying, is it true or is it just made up, you know? So doubts, it's a slippery obstacle. And all of these are natural and we all experience these hindrances. In the Heart Sutra, it goes even further, where, for example, hindrances are concepts.

[14:26]

The way we reify We make things that are living into something. We want to make it solid. Like April. I always feel a little sad in April. I wait all year for April because it's so beautiful. All the flowers are blooming. And then I also feel, I think about it. I conceptualize all this, they're all gonna fall to the ground. You know, July is not as pretty as April. So, you know, there's that kind of thinking. And divisions between sacred and profane, good and bad. So all those things are also obstacles. As we sit zazen, we practice observing these.

[15:38]

And our zazen instruction is to come back to the breath. So we get caught up, for example, in some kind of thought pattern or a narrative about anything. You know, it's usually me and my life kind of story. And sometimes we get very attached to that story. And there's a lot of thinking going on. But as we come back to the breath, we're letting go of those thoughts and those hindrances. It may only be for a second, but we're developing. We're developing tranquility, wisdom, by letting go of that habit mind. Sergeant always said, it's fine to have feelings, whatever they are, but just don't get caught in them.

[16:49]

I have a little story to tell. Around the middle of March, I saw my doctor and I told her that my wife, Nancy, and I were going on a long trip. It's about three and a half weeks out of the country, like in a week from now. And I asked her if I should get a COVID shot. And she said, yes, get one by April 1st. That way you're going to build up your immunity. We went to a lot of work because it was hard to schedule the shot, but we finally got scheduled for Sunday, March 31st at 3.30 p.m. in Emeryville. And that was the same day of the women's sushine. And so the women's sushine ran from eight to three.

[17:58]

So I thought, well, we planned, we're gonna just have to not chat with people. We're gonna just quietly leave right at three. So the women's sasheen was really wonderful. We spent a lot of time reminiscing about our female ancestors, the ones we knew here at Berkeley Zen Center. We told stories, we sat a lot of zazen. It was really lovely and I felt very peaceful. And then the sashim was going a little over three, so Nancy and I looked at each other and we got up slowly and took our bow and walked quietly out the door. So we get to the Emeryville place and on the way there we're talking about how lovely the sashim was. So we get to the CVS And I noticed the parking lot was empty.

[19:03]

But, you know, they kept sending me reminder texts, you know, don't forget to come to your shop and all that kind of stuff. So we get there and park, and this guy, a couple security guards out there, they're going, closed, closed. And I'm sitting there waving my phone. I have an appointment. I have an appointment. They sent me reminders. Everything, you know? And I was pretty persistent that this was unacceptable. And Nancy, who's the calmer half of our relationship, said, let's go, Karen, let's go to the car. So we thought, what do we do? So we thought, why don't we see if there's some other CVS that has a room to give us a shot? So we're on our phones, and we find that the CVS right near us on Fruitvale can do it at like 4.30.

[20:07]

So all of a sudden, I'm in a good mood again. Here we go, we're going to CVS on Fruitvale. We get in there, we wait in line, we finally get up there, and the guy at the counter to check us in says, the computer shows that you just got a shot at the Emeryville, you know, CVS. And I said, well, we didn't get a shot. They were closed. And he said, well, it shows the computer is saying you got a shot. And I'm saying, well, they close on Easter. And I didn't know that. And why didn't they tell me? So anyway, I was back to being upset. And apparently, As soon as you make the appointment, your insurance is charged instantly. This happens before you get your shot. So he couldn't give us a shot.

[21:11]

And then he said, why don't you come back tomorrow and I'll remember, and by then it will be cleared in the computer. And so I was still in a state and said, How do you know the computer is actually going to figure this out? They couldn't figure it out when he was sending me texts telling me to come on Easter to a closed location. So anyway, he promised. And so we left. And then I felt bad for quite a while for how I reacted. So that was another layer of suffering. But the guy was really, the guy at the Fruitvale CVS was great. I gave a little apology to him and then we came back the next day and he remembered and he gave us the shots and I was in that little tent with him and I said, I'm really apologize for my behavior and taking all that out on you.

[22:22]

And he said, it's okay, just, How about when you get the survey, just give me a 10 and we'll call it even. And then I went on to say, well, you know, I used to be a manager of public services at the library and people treated me like this every single day and I vowed, you know, I'm not going to do that to people. So, okay, so all this happened, end of story, except what I'm left with is How did I get from this peaceful sashim to yelling at a stranger? And the answer is, I don't really know how I got there. That's the scary part. It all happened so fast. And everything seemed urgent.

[23:24]

and completely real. So it's obvious what my point is, you know, that things change. You know, you're happy. I was happy one moment. The next moment I was angry, forgot all about the happy, then went back to happy and back to angry and then remorse. So anyway. So about fear, I want to go back to what Hozon was asking me to talk about. Generally, most of the time we're engaged in self-centered thinking, like I was, you know, with my COVID shot and my deadline and all that stuff.

[24:28]

It's very self-centered thinking. And in our practice, we are letting go of self-centered thinking because it manifests through our thoughts. It manifests in other ways too, our reaction to what we're experiencing. But in general, that's why Zen master Dogen in the 13th century said, as his instruction, think non-thinking. Don't think. I always found that a little, you know, how do I do that? But it's a practice, a moment by moment, gentle practice where we let go of thinking. because thinking reinforces this delusion we have that we are a solid being that we have to protect.

[25:34]

As we drop thoughts, like Dogen says, dropping body and mind, we don't have to protect ourselves so much because we have If you don't have a self to guard and protect and protest and vent about, if you know that that is not a real thing, there's great spaciousness. And we can let go of fear. Actually, I like it better. Rather than saying let go of fear, which we do do in our practice, I like the direct line, without any hindrance, no fears exist. Because actually, without the hindrances, no fears exist.

[26:46]

So we work with our hindrances in our practice. Now, in my contact with Hozan, I did tell him the other day that people wanted more information, you know, about what's going on with him and what's going on with Berkeley Zen Center. And being president of the board I'm kind of walking this fine line, wanting to care for the sangha, but also wanting to care for the abbot and at the abbot's family. So I don't wanna, anyway, I'm walking that line. And he said to me, encourage them not to be anxious. So how do we practice non-anxiety?

[28:00]

Anxiety often manifests as thinking. Strategizing, making plans, thinking about all the possible outcomes And with Hozon we've done that, you know? What's going to happen if this happens? What's going to happen if that happens? Is he going to be okay or not? And the truth is we don't really know. And are any of us okay? It came up I remember Sojin answering a question years ago in his endo about safety and he said, nothing is safe. And I really believe that.

[29:09]

I mean, nothing is safe. We talk about this all the time, the fundamental teaching of impermanence. I want to read a little quote. This is from the Buddha, a short quote. Those who conquer their own minds are greater than those who defeat 1000 men 1000 times in battle. So there is no safety. Just checking the time. Since I'm prone to anxiety, I'm frequently looking for safety.

[30:19]

So, for example, I want to say something about my upbringing. I was raised in Philadelphia in a primarily Jewish community not long after World War II ended. So in the community lived a number of Holocaust survivors. people who had gotten out of the concentration camps and labor camps. And my parents insisted I go to temple every week. And it was a reformed temple, which is much more liberal, and I have to say, not very religious. My parents were atheists, and so were a lot of the people.

[31:26]

We didn't learn, when we were really little, we learned some Bible stories, but we didn't talk about God much. And I believe that people didn't really believe in God because, you know, did God help in World War II, you know? So I think God was pretty unpopular and you could, people talked all the time that they didn't believe in it and that was fine. Nobody had an argument about that. And often we were reminded regularly about what Hitler did and what happened in Europe. And one teacher had his Auschwitz tattoo on his wrists, and he would go around and show all the kids.

[32:30]

Everyone had to stop and look at this tattoo, and we were shown pictures of heaps of dead bodies, and shoes, and glasses, and all that kind of thing. So it was really scary, and as a kid I would have dreams And I couldn't sleep at night because every sound made me think it was Hitler's army. Thump, thump, thump. But they had one solution to the problem, which was in the same conversations we talked about Hitler, we talked about Israel. And Israel was the safety. So there was hope because Jews could count on Israel as a safe place.

[33:35]

Now, I didn't really buy this, and my parents were unusual in that they were non-Zionists, but everybody else was. I was set on this tour where I saw, this was in 1971, and on the tour I saw settlements being built. And I thought, you know what, isn't that dangerous? I mean, how are these settlements being built? And nobody, the people who were teaching us didn't seem to have a problem with it. I had a big problem with it. And I said something and I got slammed really badly, humiliated for even questioning this. So move forward to kind of the present day and you know, what is safe, you know?

[34:41]

That area is not safe for anyone. And not only that, I'm happy to, I live every day with this shame about having been a victim and now a perpetrator. But this story, it's always on my mind, but the point is that there's just no safety. I know that doesn't sound like cheerful, but I think it's true and I think we can be happy with no safety. We just have to let go of our delusions. I just have a couple more things I want to say.

[35:42]

One is, We talk about gifts, gifts that we can give, and there are three gifts. One is the gift of material aid. Number two is the gift of the Dharma, giving teachings so that others can be awakened. And the third gift, which is considered the most precious gift is the gift of non-fear. Thich Nhat Hanh has what he calls the five remembrances.

[36:49]

helps me enormously when I'm struggling with all sorts of suffering. So I'm going to read them to you. I am of the nature to grow old. There is no way to escape growing old. I am of the nature to have ill health. There is no way to escape having ill health. I am of the nature to die. There is no way to escape death. All that is dear to me and everyone I love are of the nature to change. There is no way to escape being separated from them.

[37:55]

And finally, my actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand. I remember talking to Steve Weintraub, who's a teacher at Green Gulch, and I was expressing a particular anxiety that I had, which I've also talked to Sojin about, which is, isn't there something to lean on? You know, if we don't have our thoughts and we don't have a self and everything's changing and there's no safety, You know, what do you lean on? And he said to me, how about leaning on the precepts?

[38:58]

Immediately, that spoke to me. Because precepts are actions. They might be very subtle, but precepts are actions and vows are actions. So when I look for safety, I remind myself of my vows and our refuges. Taking refuge in Buddha, taking refuge in Dharma, taking refuge in Sangha, over and over and over.

[40:09]

I think I'll stop here so that people can respond, ask a question. Is someone going to come around with a mic? I see Mark Copathorn, and then Hax, and then Colin. Karen, thank you. To me, it's so astonishing. On this altar, we have Shakyamuni Buddha, and Manjushri, and Avalokiteshvara, and Samantabhadra, the highest of the high, the most exalted. And they depend on Prajnaparamita. I think there's a shadow of a missing tradition of relating to that figure. But I'll ask, how do we depend on Prajnaparamita? Well, we need to remember that wisdom, Prajnaparamita, is not a thing.

[41:14]

So it's not something we can grasp and say, we're okay now. It's something we practice. Wisdom is a practice. It's not, you know, a rung on a ladder or a gold star. That's why we say there's no attainment. There's nothing to grab. It's abiding. Because the beginning of the Heart Sutra says, while practicing deeply. It's present tense. It's not like he did it and fixed everything. We're responsible here for abiding in wisdom. And it requires a lot of maintenance.

[42:15]

That's kind of crude, but effort. I had a question about doubt, one of the hindrances you mentioned, and I believe you said it can be a slippery one. And as I was listening to your story, I had the wondering about doubt sometimes we can doubt if something is right or not. And it sounds like that may have happened on the tour you were on about the settlements. And so I wonder, like doubt, is it always a hindrance? Is it in some ways maybe it allows us to pause sometimes?

[43:15]

And I guess, yeah, I'm curious to hear you talk about that slipperiness with doubt. First, I want to say that Doubt in this case of the five hindrances, doubt really means doubting the Dharma, doubting your practice. It does not mean skepticism, critical thinking. So that's the short answer. Anything, is that adequate or do you want to? I guess I'm also curious even in the context of our practice, because we are aware of things like spiritual bypass. I'm curious even in that context. But I appreciate your distinction. I think that makes a lot of sense. Doubt in practices.

[44:25]

discouraging oneself, perpetually doubting teachers. You know, we should critically look at teachers. So we shouldn't buy into everything. But some people dislike every teacher. So that's a kind of doubt, I think, of the Dharma. Is that any more? Okay, Colleen. I see a lot of hands up. Colleen, and then I'm gonna go to the Zoom room and then come back. Hi, Colleen. Thanks for that lovely sharing this morning, Karen. You said something early on that I kept coming back to, I just want to hear more about, because you didn't linger there, but when you were talking about fear being a manifestation of aversion, and then you threw out, and so is sorrow, I wanted to hear more about that.

[45:48]

I want to first preface this by saying There's nothing wrong with any of these things. I'm not saying get rid of anger, fear, sorrow. They all serve a really important purpose. But someone dies, say someone close to you, and you don't want them to be gone. That's what I mean. I had a talk with this Vipassana teacher I used to study with, Joseph Goldstein, and he told me fear and sorrow were part of aversion. So I always stuck with that. Judy Fleischman. Thank you, Karen.

[46:57]

I always appreciate how you weave together your own personal experience and whatever the dogma might be. Those are not two. And I, too, have been leaning into how those weave together and the difficult stuff. And one of the things that I've been pondering is You know, people translate that word prajna or prajnaparamita in different ways. And one of them is switching out wisdom with understanding. And so people will say understanding of the heart, right? And where I notice the edge of that is when we're coming from different perspectives and, of course, different... Conditioning, circumstances, cultures, identities, so on.

[48:01]

And so, like you, also Jewish roots and connections particularly to the region that's known by many names, Israel, Palestine, and so on, and also working in an organization that's committed to creating pathways for dialogue among folks in that region, committed to healing and transformation. One of the things I notice, and it's not limited to that region or that issue, of course, is that There are ripple effects like the tremendous spike in anti-Semitism in this country, in Berkeley specifically. And I don't feel particularly safe as overtly Jewish and all the different signs.

[49:08]

I have a colleague who switched out wearing a Jewish star with a Hamza because she felt safer. Judy, do you mind just directing your question because there are a number of people waiting and I appreciate what you're saying yeah the reason I'm giving the specifics like you gave specifics is that the specifics really matter when it comes to you know complexity and nuance and how do we work with it's not so much about safety but it's about being able to be vulnerable like for me right now it's being with the heart pounding a little more So I'm understanding that and how to be with that as a bridge to actually don't know mind. The don't know mind is the basis for connection. So I'm wondering, even though you have an experience and you have a perspective on something particular and you share that, how do we create pathways for inclusivity?

[50:20]

around difference. How is that practicing with understanding and maybe laying down whatever safety is, but really including don't know care? Well, I think don't know is part of creating a safer environment, not jumping to conclusions that somebody some way, because You know, they have a different skin color or religion or, you know, gender identity. I mean, not knowing is most intimate as the story goes. So we have to practice that. We also have to create ways for folks to communicate. within current experiences of all that.

[51:23]

Well, we just finished. We're not finished. We're getting towards the end of our second Many Communities One Sangha program. And mostly what we do is talk with Rhonda McGee. We talk and we listen. Now, people have to choose to do this, you know? Quite a few people in the Sangha have done it and others chose not to. And I don't know what all the reasons were, and I'm not placing any judgment on it, but you have to, you know, be willing to come to that particular environment. I would like to move on. If you don't mind, I appreciate what you're saying. Ed Herzog. Hi. Karen, I loved your talk. I always do. Thank you. Would you say more about restlessness as a hindrance in practice and in our lives?

[52:33]

Well, aside from aversion, restlessness was my other big obstacle. It was just hard for me to sit. for that long and listen to my mind chatter away. I actually wanted to be anywhere else. I mean, I think restless is also like boredom. And boredom is really not engaging with the present moment. So for whatever reason, what's going on in the moment just isn't interesting enough or good enough or entertaining enough. And we're restless, looking for the next novelty or piece of excitement. I love the way, I forget who it was, described Suzuki Roshi's daily life, that he did the same thing every single day.

[53:47]

He walked out of his office. He lit candles, lit incense, lit hag zazen, lit the service, swept. You know, he was completely engaged with these repetitive tasks that some people might consider too mundane to really give oneself to. Thank you. Thanks, Ed. Jeremiah. Thank you for your talk, Karen.

[55:00]

And thank you for all of your practice throughout all the years. And I'm a newer person here, and I just want to say how much I appreciate your continuous practice in the moment. And my question is kind of going back to something Hacks brought up. and it's because I think about it all the time. I'm frequently trying to figure out if I'm so angry or so upset or so whatever it is because I'm not getting my way or it's not working out for me or I thought it was going to be different or Am I upset and angry because I'm just so saddened by the social injustice of whatever we're talking about?

[56:08]

So I'm always trying to figure out, is it because I'm not getting my way? Or is it because this just isn't right? I feel like I went through the first 50 years of my life not crying very much. And lately, the last few years, I cry a lot. And that's really what I'm trying to figure out. Am I so upset because this thing that I'm trying to push for and work for inside this institution that I work at, is this about me? Or am I really trying to do something that's not about me? you know, that's about social injustice. So it's always, so I just want to thank Hacks and thank you for your talk and all of your practice and creating an environment where I get to think about this and sit on my Zafu and cry a little bit.

[57:10]

Well, I can really relate to that dilemma. I think that as we practice and get older, our walls become more permeable. I also have found that aging has made me more permeable too. I do think it's both, you know, your question. I've worked in prisons and I know you have. So I've experienced the frustration of social injustice and how little seems to improve.

[58:25]

On a certain level, I think that we're a bit idealistic about humanity the way it should be. I only say that because it isn't. Because like all the stuff that's happening right now that we're so aware of, it's been happening since the beginning of time. And you know, history has these cycles where it gets kind of better, it gets worse, better and worse, but what happens to humanity is really pretty gruesome. As we developed wisdom and understanding, and by the way, Judy, I really like, I think understanding is a wonderful word.

[59:40]

As we develop that, compassion arises naturally. When we understand that we're not separate, solid beings from everybody and everything else, it sparks this desire to help others. like Avalokiteshvara and her 10,000, 100,000 hands and eyes reaching out everywhere to comfort. So I often wonder what can I do about all this? And I go back to my vow and the precepts and how much I can influence at least what's around me that hopefully will have that ripple effect. Somebody said to me once, some Dharma person, you know, you can't control everything, but you can influence.

[60:46]

So I would want to have faith in what we all can influence. And it goes farther than we think. So I need to stop because Ellen is holding up the stick. So I really appreciate you all being here. And your practice means so much to me and Hosan and everyone. Beings are numberless. I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible, I am bound to end them. Darn the gates are boundless, I am bound to enter them. Buddha's ways unsurpassable, I am bound to become it.

[61:58]

I vow to awaken with them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to mend them. Now my gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. This way is unsurpassable. are numberless I vow to awaken with them delusions are inexhaustible I vow to end them Dharma gates are boundless I vow to enter them Buddha's way is unsurpassable

[63:06]

I vow to become it.

[63:10]

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