It's a shame, more than one anyway, that you would sometimes laugh at me. I had planned to continue with the Kakudai no Jinshu, but someone suggested that maybe we needed to talk some, maybe there needed to be some conversation about How are you feeling about... your feelings about what happened to me?

[01:24]

So, is that a good idea? Somebody snored over... somewhere over there. And it was a very good explanation of their empowerment. And you're still here, and you're still the teacher. And we're all related to each other. And I think it's on lots of people's minds.

[02:25]

Just in general, just how would you like to continue in practice? I've always thought of myself as immortal. When I was young, a teenager, I have to wait for that to pass. It's going to land.

[03:27]

I'll be glad they just passed. That was a teenager. People would ask me my age, and they couldn't believe, you know, that I was as old as I was. So, I was, I think I'm kind of a late bloomer, in a sense. And I always was kind of youthful. I didn't have a cavity until I was 40. And I never had anything wrong with me. And I could eat anything, you know, without gaining weight. Until I was about 50. And I always had energy. And I always felt that I had a good fairy that was always guiding me and helping me. Something like that.

[04:27]

Some good spirit that was that was always guiding me and helping me. And no matter what kind of problem or situation I get into, there was always a way to deal with it, a way out. I was snagged to safety. And I just always felt that that was there and trusted it. So I've always been an optimistic kind, type, faith type, actually. You know, the faith type and the God type. I'm definitely the faith type. I've never had any real doubts about things. The only thing I've ever had doubts about is myself. You know, like, can I do this? And when it came to practice, I never had any doubts about practice. I only had doubts about, can I do this? Those were my only doubts. So, when I get sick,

[05:30]

or when something happens to me, I just see it as being sick. I don't see it as... Even something life-threatening like this, I have to say I never felt it as life-threatening, even though I know that it is. But then I have to think, when I go out on the road, that's life-threatening. Every moment is life-threatening, you know? So, somehow I just have that perspective. There are certain things I'm afraid of, you know, vertigo and pines. And if I have, if my breathing isn't good, that scares me. I fear suffocation. But most of the time, I just don't think about it in that way. So I remember having anxiety up to about 25.

[06:34]

But then from then until now, I never had any. Maybe 35. Maybe as soon as I started practicing, I just never had it anymore. So sometimes it's hard for me to relate to people when I did have this anxiety attack. Just before I went to Chapel Hill, I mentioned that, about four or five days. And that I realized, or at least I think it was triggered by the heart attack. But what that did was give me a lot of sympathy for people's anxiety. I revisited the old anxieties that I used to have. when I was in my 20s. And now when I see people, sometimes I say, do you have anxiety?

[07:36]

And then they start telling me about all that anxiety. And I can relate to it much better. And also, having this problem, I can relate to people's problems. I remember when I was young, we used to say, what all people talk about is their operations. To sit around and talk about it, and I begin to see, you know, when you meet somebody in their fifties and fifties, you know, there's this commonality of operations. But I never thought that I'd be talking about mine, essentially, to so many people. I don't have to admit it, but I do.

[08:36]

Because we're all connected. You're all connected here with me, in some way. And that's important. And I'm connected with you. And that's important. So we're concerned about each other, and about personally and impersonally. So, this is my attitude, my kind of temper. I don't say I never get scared, or I don't say I never this or that, but my basic attitude is like this. Yes? Well, I have lots of different thoughts and feelings, but what's coming to me right now is that somehow you didn't take it seriously before, whatever hill it was, the anxiety attack. And so, I mean, of course, all of our feelings are really about ourselves as well, and it's about you, but, you know, when you walked in, I was sure that your arm was, I mean, I'm projecting stuff, but then I think, you know, right in the middle of something, if you have one of those things that the hospital has told you to take in an emergency, will you rush out?

[09:57]

That's my fear. Oh yes, of course. How will you know? With no emergency, what is it? Because that's happened, I know. Okay. So it's the pain. I have to say that every day I feel much better, like today, you know. I feel great and energetic. Every day I feel more calm and energetic and less worried about, or less concerned about what, you know, what's this and that. So, it's true. Today I feel really energetic and, you know, like, each day, like the first day was, you know, just, I could say I was tired or whatever, you know. And a little un-used to the feelings in my body. But now I feel just back to normal. And very energetic. And no pains at all. Grace seems to imply that there are things that you could have done and should be doing and aren't going to do.

[11:09]

I know. I don't know if that's grace or you. And I'm sure it's a little bit of both. It's both. It's a little bit of both. But so whatever you can't do, you will do. I guess I'm not the only one. I have to say that Grace is not the only one. And I have so many Mothers and fathers, daddies and mommies, who have been telling me this, Ellen is the worst. But it's not like I don't know what to do. I know very well what to do. And it's not that I would say 80% I eat what I'm supposed to eat.

[12:15]

Or maybe 85%. We eat very healthy food at home. My wife knows exactly what to feed us. She's very up on broccoli. is that I eat too much. It's not what I eat so much, it's that I eat too much. If I go out to breakfast, sometimes I'm vegan. That's about the only meal I eat. I mean, red meat. And for the last five years, I've stopped drinking juices, which are full of sugar. This is where you get most of your sugar, through juices. But you also get sugar through rice. Rice is loaded with sugar. So you can't avoid these things. And I don't eat cheese.

[13:16]

Well, I used to eat lots of cheese. So I used to get a lot of fat through cheese, and I used to get a lot of sugar through juice. I used to drink a quart of juice a day. And Tootsie Rolls. Cohorts isn't true. Let the truth hang out. I ate one Tootsie Roll every year. And Susan just happened to see you do it. are just so confident. It upset me deeply to hear you describe radiated pain in your arm when you were walking to the point where you could barely walk and ignore it.

[14:27]

No, I didn't ignore it. I did not ignore it. Yeah, but you didn't really do a whole lot about it. I did, actually. I finally got to the point where I went to the emergency. Yeah, finally. That's the operative word. Excuse me. He had a stent put in. Everything was fine. I heard you say six weeks. That's bullshit. It's more like six months. And six months after he had a stent put in, he was back in the hospital and had open heart surgery just before ROHOT2 last year. And I'm scared that you're going to minimize this thing. You know, I'm not minimizing.

[15:34]

I think the biggest thing that can cause you a problem is too much worry. And I'm not going to give myself over to anxiety and worrying about this. I'm going to take care of it. Don't throw away your nitroglycerin, okay? Well, I am, you know, taking care of this. And what happens, happens. But worrying is not going to make me any healthier. Taking care of it is going to make me healthier, right? And being concerned about it is going to be a factor. A big factor. So, but please don't tell me you're worried. I will.

[16:35]

Cross my heart. I hope to live. I'll cross your legs when you say it. Basically, I think Well, it's not that I would say that I would be here long term. Well, yes, yes, yes. In a way, you'll be here forever, in the way that Suzuki and Roshki is here forever.

[17:44]

But you're going to die. Yes. I'm going to die. We've got a whole room full of dead people. What do you want to know? I would disagree with you. I'm not asking you not to die. No, we know that. I'm asking you that when the period that you think is the dangerous period is over and gone by, that you don't slip back into this idea it's okay if I have pain because it's just, you know, but... Right. To do something... I agree. Totally. I totally agree. But I'm not asking you to work.

[18:45]

But I can't do it until I do it. I mean, I can't do it until, you know... So... doctor visits and so on and so forth. So I think maybe if you feel comfortable sharing a bit of what you find too differently, I think that might be somewhat reassuring. Yes. Well, although I exercise, exercise and diet, right? That's what it's about.

[19:45]

handling blame. I don't know how to deal with that. And I want you to live well and live long and have a good time and all of that stuff. And I guess there are enough people who will follow up with you on making sure that you take care of yourself. I guess we can all call that support. But I'm reminded of, I believe it was LBJ who had an operation and then proceeded to show it to all the reporters. Well, my admission is I was more worried about me than you. I mean, I was concerned about you, but I'm not so worried about you. I was worried about the group we send out and all the students and what the hell I was going to do.

[21:25]

But I was so impressed that it wasn't kind of a... I mean, I was pretty involved in what was going on, and it just seemed like everybody just went, like, rooted themselves, and just took care of what we needed to take care of, and, you know, so she went on, and it was really wonderful. I mean, sorry to say it, but it was sort of like a dress rehearsal, like, you know, welcome, and I think it was... It was really great. You know, when I was studying with Suzuki Roshi, you know, go back and forth. And I felt that he and I were practicing together, even though I was here and he was there. But I felt that I was practicing in order to be independent. I felt that I was practicing. I knew that someday, you know, he was going to not be around. I didn't know when. But I was practicing to be on my own.

[22:29]

So that when that happened, I would not be lost. And that I would, you know, the Dharma would be in my hands. Well, and at this time, we're all practicing together. So I'm wondering if there's anything that we as individuals or as a Sangha can do to support you? It's just what you do. I think, I just feel so much support, you know. I think what you're doing is just great. It's really up to me to do what I have to do. It's not up to you. It's up to me to do what I'm supposed to do. And you can support what I'm doing. And, you know, if I'm not aligned, you can tell me.

[23:31]

Mark, any questions? No, first I want to make a comment with this. I remember when you were in the hospital, Alan said the doctors told him that you, after the operation, you should be feeling a lot better than you have in a long time. Because, you know, you had constricted blood flow to your heart. Actually, if you get through the period of complications and through your heart rehab, you'll actually be feeling better than you have in quite a while. Yes. That's what doctors always say. Well, it may be what they always say, but it's what he said. So, I think that's true. I mean, there's no reason to disbelieve that. I mean, when you're getting more, you should feel better. So, I do. I already feel better than I did before. And, you know, six months from now, I may die. But I'm not counting on that, you know. Two minutes from now, I'm going to die.

[24:37]

But I won't. I had a question. It's a little bit maybe out of context. But this phrase keeps going through my mind. It's riding the beast's horse to catch the thief. And I'm wondering what your interpretation of that is. Well, that's... Did everyone hear that back there? Repeated subject. Riding the thief's horse to catch the thief. When you take something that's a problem and use it as an asset. Well, that's right.

[25:39]

The problem you have is actually your teacher, an asset. That's a good point. I'm thinking about László Háczú when we were doing Zenki, Birth and Death. Oh yeah. And you have an image of Edward Hawk's painting of the man standing on the edge of the abyss looking into the darkness. Right. And you made quite a point about how we keep wanting to turn and look at the light, but we need to hold ourselves right on the edge and look through the darkness. And yesterday when you came, I found myself wanting to ask, was this an occasion? You're sort of looking into the dark, and I got the distinct impression that it was not. And I wondered if maybe because you've already been there, done that, that might be part of the reason why this did not feel alarming.

[26:44]

I don't know why it didn't feel alarming. I just have always had this optimistic feeling. Do you remember ever having? I mean, you were counseling us to do that. to stand and look into the abyss and not be afraid of thinking of death. Yeah. Can you talk about when you ever do that? Yes. Actually, I do it quite often. And I think about death every day. It's like, we think about it, we have thoughts about it, and we have feelings about it. We have thoughts about it, feelings about it, and emotions about it, and then there's it, which is different.

[27:52]

So, what we think about it is what we think about it. What we feel about it is what we feel about it. But when it's there, that's when you know what it is. So, I do think about it every day, and I feel that the best way to deal with it, for me, is to really live. Not think about, what is it, am I going to die? But how can I just live up to the end? How can I just continue to live? I feel if I just continue to live what I'm living, then when I'm dead, that'll take care of itself. That's what will take care of it dying. Why give up now? You know, it's like, I remember when we used to, in Tassajara, we planned out the practice period day by day,

[29:03]

you know, you make a calendar for every day of the practice period. And then we'd discuss it during the practice period, and we'd say, well, let's see, it's January, February, and now it's February, and then we have all these, pretty soon the thing will be over. You know, have you ever had that? Yeah. Pretty soon it'll all be over. Well, look at your life, you know. You're 69, pretty soon it'll be over. Time is going faster and faster for you. But, why look at it that way? I don't want to look at it that way. As soon as you start looking at it that way, you've already lost your life. You've already lost your life. You just stepped outside of it. Just be in it.

[30:04]

This is my practice and my effort. Just live life. And then when it's time to die, just die. Everybody does this. Everybody who's ever been born has done this. There must be something to it. There's got to be something to it. How do we understand it? The problem is that we relate to ourself. When it comes down to it, we're isolated. The thing about anxiety and self-consciousness is that we isolate ourself. And then we have the self that we create by isolating. When you have anxiety, you feel disconnected from your surroundings.

[31:09]

So, to feel that you are part of your surroundings. I was reading this article in the National Geographic about parasites on each one of It's not just on the inside, but on the outside. And you take a shower, and you go swimming, and you think you're free of them. But you're not. They live. And your eyebrows, eyelashes. And they're there. And they're cleaning you up. And they're also infecting you. But we think we're independent. And yet, we're so connected with everything. We're just part of life. And our birth and our death is just part of life. So when we can accept that our birth and our death is part of life, instead of some isolated experience, like, what will happen when I die?

[32:21]

I don't know. When I die, we'll find out. But I'm willing to wait. But just as you say about interdependency, your death is not just your death. That's right. It's something that we're sharing. That's right. And so that's the part where you have some responsibility. I don't want to get angry, but... But go ahead. Jen has a question for him. Tell him to answer. So when you had your anxiety attack and you felt disconnected, how did you practice with that? Well, I just let it be. Can you say more? Yes. I just let it be. I didn't know what it was.

[33:21]

I didn't know, is this a problem with my health that's causing the anxiety or anxiety causing the problem. Did you think it was self-cleaning? Did you try to let go? Yeah, I thought it was self-cleaning. I'm trying to let go. So were you able to? Well, finally, I went to see a doctor. Because I wanted to find out if there was anything wrong, physically, that was causing this. Because it was unusual. Suddenly, just suddenly, it was unusual. And my body was contracting. I could feel my body contracting. Muscles, you know, kind of spasming. And I thought, this is more than just anxiety.

[34:24]

So when I was in Chapel Hill, I went to a doctor. And the doctor couldn't find anything wrong, other than he didn't take a blood test. And so I said, well, give me a tranquilizer. So she gave me a tranquilizer, and that helped. And then I started, I did my class in Sashim. three days. And this was going on, but it was reduced by doing practice. And then I came home, and it was still going on. But I just was with it, you know. It just gradually let go. But I had this feeling all along that there was something physical that was causing it. Because I didn't feel like I had anything to be anxious about that was different than in my life.

[35:32]

But I couldn't tell, you know? I didn't know. We keep quoting this Dogen thing about, well, you know, our body, we just inherit it from our parents and it's really nothing. I mean, so when... I can't quote him very well. You know what I'm talking about? No. If you look for yourself, if you look for the self somewhere, It's not, you say, you look at your physical body, it's not there. You look at your emotions, it's not there. And so, there you are, you're having anxiety, you feel disconnected, to the point where you're taking tranquilizers. I'm wondering if you doubted those words about there being no self. I wondered if you doubted your practice. No, I didn't. So, what were your thoughts? How did you think about that? Who is anxious, right? Yeah, who is anxious? Yeah. It's not like there's no body.

[36:35]

The body is feeling this. And the emotions are feeling something. And that's actually how I got through it. Because I know that this is the body feeling this. This is the emotions feeling this. This is feelings feeling this. And where was he now? You may, people say, does a Zen master ever get sick? Does a Zen master ever suffer? Not that I'm a Zen master. Just the questions are going, oh, geez, I got real disappointed in my teacher. He got a cold. And yet I still haven't made out a will.

[37:45]

And for me, that feels like a neglect, you know what I mean? A certain not facing something. And it's very much tied to the whole, you know, the self. And so I think there is a Isn't there a Buddhist tradition where they contemplate a skull? Yes. Oh, I'm not saying that you shouldn't look at death at all. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying you should definitely look it in the face and then go and live it. As a matter of fact, you can't live completely unless you do that. Because And in a sense, living is learning how to die. that's what you need to learn.

[39:17]

I have something to say about it. And I'm just going to say this name and it's just an example of what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about him or what he does, but when I say the name, A lot of people will understand that this country is not taking care of their own death. There are a certain segment of them. They're going to Dr. Kevorkian or others. And I don't know what to make of it, but it's clear that this is something new.

[40:19]

So that's all I can say. Well, in a sense it's good. You know, before we had so many wonderful ways of dealing with our health problems, there must have been a lot of suffering. Well, I was... This is the one thing that hit me the most. Like, I could take a pill and my suffering would go away. But before that, and in all parts of the world that don't have those pills, it's a mass of suffering. If I didn't have this pill, what would I be feeling like, you know, if I didn't have that pill? There are times when there's more pain than you can stand. And, Dr. Kavortian comes in handy.

[41:25]

I'm not saying that Dr. Kavortian's method is so good, but it's on the fence. I'd like to say something about that. When you take a pill and the pain goes away, doesn't the suffering go somewhere else? Suffering goes away with the pain. That's physical suffering. Doesn't it take a different form? Well, sure, everything has its, you know, other side. I just don't believe it goes away because it gives me two pills. Well, you know, it's very important to lessen the pain when you have physical problems. Because the pain will kill you. And what they said to me was, if you have any pain, take this pill because pain will damage you.

[42:32]

So they wouldn't allow me to have any pain. I didn't tell them that. Will we lose, if we lose you, will we lose direction here? I mean, no, I'm not, this is not in any way a lack of confidence in the rest of the teachers here. I'm just wondering if the same, if you have confidence that the teaching is, you know, runs through the rest of the senior sangha? I think it does. I have confidence, even though the senior sangha, all those senior sangha are not necessarily like me.

[43:40]

They're like them. But the Dharma is the Dharma. And it takes a different form in each person. Each teacher has a different style. So what happens when a teacher dies is that There's always some kind of rough transition periods. Not always, but usually. And a lot of people leave because they don't, they say, well, who's this? And I'm used to practicing with this person. This is what happened when Suzuki Roshi died. A lot of the people left. They liked the small intimate sangha. It was growing bigger. And a different teacher. And so, a lot of people leave, but people get used to the teacher, and hold the teacher to, you know, be a teacher. And I had a lot of confidence, actually, in people here.

[44:45]

Also, I have other Dharma heirs outside of Berkeley, who I'm sure, you know, do whatever they can to help. I don't think Greg can just write something down? I have a sealed letter that says, if I die, so-and-so will... but I'm not going to tell you who that is.

[45:49]

So-and-so will what? Well, so-and-so will be my choice. But it doesn't say, so-and-so will do this. I say, so-and-so will be my recommendation. So it wouldn't come to happen? It wouldn't be my recommendation. Is that fixed? Yeah. Is that fixed? What do you mean by fixed? I mean, like you in the future? Well, I might change it, yeah. I'm not sure why this floated through my brain, but when I was thinking about that, like, gee, I wonder who would be a dormant area?

[46:54]

This funny thought came to me, and I thought, maybe Virginia next door. How'd you know? Can't I be like that, Mom? I thought it was D on the other side. Remember, Arizona, when this was big, right? So what qualities did you look for in your choice? Well, I didn't think of it in terms of qualities. I thought of it in terms of who I most trusted. The first thing is good understanding, loyalty to the Dharma and to the Sangha. And a single moment of practice and leadership. That's what I look for in all of you.

[48:33]

So, it's already 9.30. I don't know what I can do to convince you and grace There's no way that I can convince you. You just have to suffer with it. Well, I would just like to say that I really hope that we don't suffocate you with our anxiety. I think it's a wonderful thing that you did and it's something that I mean, I think about families that I've worked with where someone's been ill or is dying, and it's so crucial to be able to do that, and I think it should relieve our anxiety, and so that we can kind of go on. Yes. I bet the questions tomorrow will be very different as a result of this, much different.

[49:42]

These questions will be real. I've asked Mary to do the show for me. He mentioned that at a work meeting. But I appreciate that. I would not like us to go along feeling some big anxiety. You can feel what you feel, but I don't want to promote that. I ain't going through this.

[50:35]

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