I vow to chase the truth that does not just work. Morning. Morning. Well, I'm finally back from winter adventures. In January I went to Tassajara to leave the practice period and In the middle of practice period, we had a... I had to go to Green Gulch because there was a one-month special practice period with Japanese counterparts, the Soto Shu, Shu Mucho. And I'll talk about that, too. So even though I've been in seclusion, I've been actually traveling a lot. So I was here for Buddha's birthday on Saturday, but it felt strange to me because I was in transition and people were a little bit hesitant because I wasn't quite here yet.

[01:22]

I didn't feel quite here yet. And here you are. Tassajara practice period was very interesting because it rained the whole time. And it was, at some point, it felt like being underwater. Because the ground gets saturated and then the water just starts running off. And fortunately, Tassajara has a very good watershed. I wasn't worried about that, except that we have two creeks, one that flows through the edge of Tassajara and one that kind of flows through Tassajara. And the one that flows through Tassajara winds around and it has several culverts. It crosses the road just above Tassajara and then it comes through Tassajara and meets the other creek.

[02:24]

there was one point at which I could watch the water rising. I could see it out my window of my cabin and usually you don't see the water in the creek from the window of the cabin but there were days when it just rained continuously without let up and I could watch the water rising and at one point the water from Tassajara Creek was level with the road, just about level with the road. And you kept wondering, well, what's going to happen? A little bit of that feeling of, how's all this going to turn out? Because the water was rising very rapidly. So I remember at one point walking out of the dining room. I had something to do but suddenly I just found myself doing something else because we just had to start taking care of emergency things.

[03:38]

So I was up at the shop and we saw water running down the road. And it looked kind of like a creek running down the road. And so somebody said, I think the water is backed up at the gate. So we went to the gate, and the water was all backing up at the gate. So we opened the gate, and it just flooded in again. And we realized that the culvert up at the end, the first culvert up from the gate, There was a landslide that came and plugged it up. And then the creek was going over the road. And then it was coming down the road and making a new creek down the road. So we had a lot of water emergency, you know, and getting out there with our boots and raincoats and diverting water.

[04:45]

It was great fun. It was one of the best times I've had in Tanzania. And somebody went out, and it seemed like there were nine landslides this side of the ridge, which means, you know, pretty hard to get it out. So we thought, well, we're going to be stuck here for a long time, given the fact that all the rest of the county was a disaster. We started rationing food, you know, and thinking about how to take care of things. And it was really wonderful, you know. It was like the practice period was getting very tight. The practice was getting very strict and tight. And then one day, somebody said, the road crew was an hour away.

[05:47]

People with their bulldozers clearing the road. I couldn't believe it. It was such a letdown. It's like the cowl ring is here. So that one's not too bad. But I really enjoy that kind of practice period where something happens and you have to deal with it. And it kind of tests of our practice. It's one thing to sit and do a little work I also introduced a work period, a work sashim at Tassajara. In the old days at Tassajara, we used to work all day. Of course, we'd sit zazen, but we'd work a lot in the morning and in the afternoon. But now, the schedule is sitting all morning, so people get a lot of zazen, but they don't experience a lot of work.

[06:53]

And one of the things that I felt was good about Tassajara in the olden days, the beginning, was that people were working a lot and it felt like we were building something together. And there was that feeling of putting your effort into creating something, creating this new thing, this new practice place. And that in some sense, you know, Effort and sweat was going into the creation of something. And these days, it doesn't feel that way as much because people do a lot more sazen, kind of using it instead of building it. So I introduced this work sashimi, where everybody would be very quiet, no talking, and even eating in the dining room would be silent. So people liked it a lot and it worked very well.

[07:58]

And it was a different kind of practice. And we were down at the new bathhouse and clearing that out from all, you know, making a nice landscaping and everything. And then when the storm came, the creek rose and completely wiped it out. So that was nice. Because all that work, you know, for nothing. But, my feeling is, just leave it. You know, the creek did a wonderful, from my point of view, the creek did a wonderful, nature did a wonderful job of landscaping. And no need to improve on it. Anyway, so, that was kind of eventful practice. And then at Green Gulch, we had this one month special, it's called the Tokubetsu Special Sashin, but it's more like a practice period than a Sashin.

[09:08]

People get confused when you say Sashin. We've been doing this with our Japanese counterparts for some time, and they want to acknowledge our practice, but it's been very hard for them because their practice is a little different than ours. I've talked about this before. They have an old system and a lot of the vitality is directed in a different way than our practice. They've been practicing for so long that they have Well, you know, in the Tokugawa era, the monks were expelled from monasteries, mostly, and they took up family practice in the temples.

[10:12]

And so there's this large temple constituency of families around each of the temples. As a matter of fact, the families in Japan were all made to register at the temples. So there's this temple family practice which doesn't include much Zazen, usually doesn't include any, but it includes the priest doing a lot of memorial services for the families because over this period of time there have been so many births and deaths that it's easy to just get into doing memorial services and funerals and some weddings. Mostly Shinto takes care of weddings. But the vitality has gone into a ceremonious kind of practice, whereas our practice in America is very fresh and new. We don't have all that. And so we can do a lot of zazen.

[11:16]

And so our practices are quite different. The emphasis is quite different. And it's been hard for them to understand what our practice is over this long period of time, 30, 40 years, and to really acknowledge us in a way. But as we practice with them over the years in this kind of situation, they've come to understand and appreciate our practice and want to acknowledge us and give us a certain kind of status that See, one of the problems is that with Japanese school, that unless you've done all your practice in Japan, with Japanese teachers, in Japanese monasteries, they don't acknowledge that you've done anything.

[12:17]

So even though we've been practicing steadily for 30 years, the acknowledgement isn't the same as for some monk, young monk who's been practicing for a year. But they understand this. So they've given us a special status. a new designation, which it's hard to change anything in Japan. Once something is said, it's very hard to change it. So they've given us a new status and it's called Dendo Kyoshi. Usually the people who come here are called missionaries, but you can't be a missionary exactly in your own country. So they've given us, as a result of this particular session with them, I can't go into details, too complex, but they've given us the status of Dendo Kyoshi, which means foreign priest.

[13:26]

Which means that it's the equivalent of having studied in Japan. So they recognize us. It's that kind of recognition. And so, you know, whether it's... whatever it is, it's the beginning of a peer relationship. And... What they always wanted us to do was to have some kind of an organization of teachers who they could relate to instead of just relating to each sangha individually. So we decided that we would go ahead and do that. And so in the midst of this thing we put together a non-profit corporation. which consists of not the sanghas, but the teachers who have had dharma transmission and the abbots and so forth.

[14:43]

And there were eight people or so who were qualified for this Dendo Kyoshi. And so we created this organization, which is called something like North American Zen Buddhist Association. I came up with that because it's a very generic kind of name. When you make a corporation, you have a name, and then you have a fictitious name. A fictitious name is a One name is kind of legal, corporate-wise, and the other is more like who you are. So our legal name is Berkley Zen Center, but our fictitious name is Plum Mountain.

[15:47]

It's not fictitious, that's just what it's called legally. Old Plum Mountain, actually, is the name of this place, and the temple is Shogaku-ji, after Suzuki Goshi. So, what this corporation does, actually, what this entity does, it's an association of Buddhist teachers, Zen, Buddho-Zen teachers, and it give some organization to the scattered teachers so that they can relate in a unified way to anybody, to any organization, not just Japan. And also to introduce some standards for teachers and for practices, which I think is very good, actually. It allows us to at least make standards for teachers

[16:53]

so that someone can't just set themselves up as a teacher without some kind of verification. So the verification process is within our own sanghas. This meeting was a meeting of the oldest teachers in America, American teachers, and also some from Europe. And these are the people who are getting verification from Japan. But we feel that this is not a Japanese-American organization. This is our American Western organization in order to relate to Japan, not in a hierarchical way, but on a horizontal level. A lot of people are always afraid, you know, the Japanese want to dominate us and control us, which they can't do at any rate.

[17:55]

No way they can do that. But this helps to verify that and to give us our own... some kind of organization which doesn't control anybody. and which allows for the differences, you know, all the teachers are different, and they all have different ways of teaching, but there's something that's the same, some aspect of understanding upon which we all agree, and some standard for teaching on which we all agree. So, even though, you know, we've always been very independent in America, And we always will be independent. It's the nature of American sanghas and teachers. Still, some way to unify and to have an organization to which people can relate when they want to, when it's necessary.

[19:06]

So that was kind of a historical meeting, actually. Maybe you want to ask some questions about it. Charlie? What they had to say about Katherine and Blanche. Katherine and Blanche. Well, what about them? Well, they're women. Who had to say? Japanese. Oh, Japanese. They accept women. You know, our practice in America is very different. One of the things that makes our practice different is the struggle for equality of men and women in the Sangha. That's always, from the very beginning of our practice, that's always been unique.

[20:12]

And of course, Japanese don't have the same equality. But they treat the women in our Sangha the same way we do. Is that good or bad? But I would say women are treated by them in the same way that women in our Sangha are treated. Yeah, that's better. And as a matter of fact, Jan Bays, One of the teachers there was a sculptor. Well, she's a doctor actually, but she'd been doing all this sculpture while she was there. She had a kind of mixture of clay and cement and gravel or something. I don't know what all the ingredients are, but she made this very nice

[21:17]

a female figure. And I said, boy, that's really nice. You know, the people in Berkeley are very much interested in female figures. And so when I came back, I had to go back to Tassajara and then go back. And when I came back, she had finished this figure and gave it to us. So it's very nice. And it's got a little baby there. But I don't know if it's a woman. You know, I think it's an androgynous figure. because it doesn't have all the features that most women have. But I was very taken with it. And then I also saw Rebecca's female figure that she gave to Mary for her birthday. And I had never seen it before, but it's at Green Gulch in the Wheelwright Center. And I was very impressed with that. I haven't said anything to Rebecca since I've seen it, but some very nice things coming out from our grassroots, which I'm very impressed with.

[22:31]

So I put this on the altar just to show you. Very nice. So it's interesting the way that the American sangha is going, the American teachers actually, you know, are developing. Tetsugan Glassman was there. He's one of Maezumi Roshi's disciples, but he's been in New York for a long time and he's, you know, started the Greystone Sangha and the bakery there in New York. But what he's been doing is mostly, these days, piecework. And they had a sashin outside of the White House a couple of years ago in the snow.

[23:38]

And he does sashins on the street with homeless people. And he did a lay ordination at Auschwitz And he's doing a peace walk across Vietnam. But he does all these other things as well. And he's organized a hostel for homeless women with children. And a lot of things like that. he was a little worried about this organization because he thought maybe he didn't fit into it, you know, exactly, which couldn't be farther from the truth because the organization is for American teachers, not, you know, to become like Japan. It's to actually acknowledge the diversity of our American teachers

[24:49]

and not to try to control them. And I think that it's also a way for us to stand on our own feet, a way to acknowledge that we're standing on our own feet and not buckling into someone else's idea or to be absorbed in some way anyone else. I think it's really good. So, I've added another thing to my schedule. It seems like an important development. Who else was there besides And what other sanghas were there? Well, my Sumiyoshi students, you know, Tetsugan, and Genpo, and Daido, and Chozen, who made this statue.

[25:59]

They're from L.A.? From L.A., yeah. There were a number of people from L.A., but, you know, his disciples are no longer from L.A. They're from Oregon, and Utah, and New York, and because they have their own sanghas. although some of his other students were there as well, and Reb and I were there, and Catherine, Tathanis, and Blanche, and some people from, a woman from Paris, Paris Saga, and one from Germany, and But there are a lot more people, you know. But they weren't all there, and they couldn't all come. And some from Minneapolis. And some from Minneapolis, yeah. Rochester. Not Rochester. I don't want to get into who people are, but this was, as you have to remember, this is the Soto Zen Shumucho, or the organization of Soto Shu.

[27:14]

And so people it was directed toward just those people who have transmission in the Soto lineage, not all of Zen in America, just people who have transmission in the Soto Zen lineage. And there's some people in America who are uncertain what their lineage actually is and never actually had or have uncertain lineage. For instance, Philip Kaplow actually never did have dharma transmission. So his students had dharma transmission from him, but with his note, you know, it's complex, right? And we want to be, not alienate people, you know, but include people. So this is a kind of beginning process of how we can include the people

[28:17]

we feel are legitimate teachers in America, whether everything is perfect in their background or not. So this is just the beginning of how to actually acknowledge teachers and make standards for teachers. I can see the obvious value for for this meeting, how do you envision that to translate to people who maybe are here for the first time? Yeah, I don't know how to translate that to people who are here for the first time. Yes, Suzy? What is the contribution that you think that Zen in America is making to the practice? To the what practice? Well, I think that the contribution that American Zen is making to the practice is the freshness of our practice and the forward look.

[29:40]

In other words, a lot of the old practices. A lot of the practices in the old countries are not what you would call progressive. They're kind of settled in their ways, like old people. And we have a young practice, just like young people. And so I think our practice is the practice of leadership. and at the same time needs roots. So we have a lot of ideas. In America we have tons of ideas. And right now there's a kind of popular Buddhism which is springing up with lots of ideas. And I feel that practices that have lineage

[30:46]

like our practice, has roots. And I think that for the last 30 years, I've been trying to maintain the roots of our practice. And that from our strong roots, people with ideas will be able to do something significant. And I think that there will be a lot of ideas that will be called Buddhist that aren't. because they don't have the roots. So I see the significance of this kind of practice. A lot of people aren't interested in relating to the Japanese, to our root practices. But I'm very interested in it because people think, well, now we have the ball, we'll run with it. That's what a lot of people feel.

[31:47]

But I feel there's still a lot of ball left that we can benefit by. And I would like to see how we do that in some way. And I think the stronger the foundation, the better. So I feel that we should continue to create some affinity. And at the same time, this is like where the new Buddhism will be, the spearheading of how Buddhism comes into the 21st century. I think that because we're the children. How do you see that process actually happening?

[32:52]

How would people decide whether somebody was a teacher? There are teachers who have... The people who have dharma transmission are who we consider the teachers, the main teachers. And the dharma transmission comes from the root teachers. So, anyone who we considered to have had dharma transmission in a correct way, through a teacher who was acknowledged, would be able to be in the group. So, what about somebody like the Catholic men? That's what has to be worked with. I'm sure that everyone would completely acknowledge Philo Kapla, right?

[33:56]

Because of what he's done. And because of his association, even though technically he may not have had that Dharma transmission. So, I'm sure that that wouldn't be a hindrance. So people who are, you know, there are two ways of becoming acknowledged as a teacher. One is that you go through all the steps and the other is that somehow you do something on your own that works and people acknowledge you. That's the other way. So it's like, you know, somebody goes to college and graduates, right? And someone else just does the work and later they're given an honorary degree at the college. Right? Kind of like that. So, where would Richard Baker stand at this point?

[34:57]

He would stand where he wants. Because I understand he's teaching in Colorado or something. He is. He has a place in Colorado. But he, in other words, he is, whatever position he wants, is possible. But you can only do something if you go through the right, the correct channels. So I think that it would be possible for Richard Baker to be recognized if people would recognize him. But I'm not sure that everybody would. I mean, When I say it's whatever he wants, what I mean by that is if he wants to truly acknowledge what he's done to people, then I think that would be good.

[36:11]

You know, I just wanted to say that whenever these organizational things come up, I find myself feeling very uncomfortable and uneasy. I mean, for the reasons that you've said. Because, I guess, I think it's so easy, even here, organization, but gradually becoming the wisdom. And it just makes me very uncomfortable. And I think that teachers like Shakyamuni, I don't think had a lineage until he had the experience that we call He did have a lineage.

[37:23]

It was an old line of teachers or sages or whatever. In other words, there's a really large tradition and there are these smaller ones in it. to want to emphasize the smaller tradition than this really large one, that it might become rather, I don't know, it's this thing between tradition and revelation, I guess. It makes me uneasy that there seems Well, maybe it's good, but it just seems like there's a continual pull towards organization and perhaps some kind of hierarchy.

[38:45]

I don't know, that just makes me a little bit concerned. Well, I'm glad that you're concerned. We should all be concerned. Yeah, we should all be concerned. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. We should all be very careful how we do it. This is a question that's been on my mind for a while, since I've been practicing here. I mean, being raised Roman Catholic, I guess my question would be along the lines of, are the roots that we're trying to connect with, is the tree in Japan? Are we taking a Japanese tree and planting it here? Or are we getting connected with the roots of a redwood? Are we coming to a depth of an American tradition?

[39:48]

You're brought up Catholic, right? Where is that from? But where else is it from? It's from, well, it's from the universe. Yeah. It's from the universe, that's right. Indiana and Florida and South Dakota and Ohio, it's from anywhere in the USA. It's from wherever you are. It looks like the practice started in India, but the practice is beginningless. It just happened to have appeared in India with Shakyamuni and went to China, Southeast Asia, Japan, America. But wherever it is, that's where it grows. So it's a... The roots are everywhere.

[40:55]

And the roots are right here. We planted the roots here, actually. As a matter of fact, our teacher, who came from Japan, planted himself as a root, right here, and became an American. Did he become a naturalized citizen? Yeah. Suzuki Roshi was an American citizen. I guess maybe. Maybe I'm asking about my roots more than... Of course you are. I'm not asking about... because my roots are in Roman Catholic tradition. Yeah, that's the wonderful thing about us, you know, we all come from some other tradition. Every one of us comes from some other tradition, you know, and yet we meet here and this... Japan, just one of those traditions. It just happens that, you know, Buddhism came through that channel.

[41:58]

Buddhism comes through lots of different channels. Actually, the Dharma comes through many channels. It also comes through your Roman Catholic roots, too. Can you more specifically outline, just maybe in one difference between, maybe that came up in these meetings. Difference? Difference between this Japanese Soto practice and our practice, especially in terms of the practice. Well, our practice is really basically the same. Practice is really basic, but we put emphasis on different things. They put a lot of emphasis on formality and ceremony. They're very ceremonious. What they want to teach is these ceremonies, you know. And we get very tired of it because... And a lot of, you know, it's like... Sometimes they treat us like kindergartners, you know.

[43:02]

I mean, when we went to Japan to have our confirmation a couple of years ago, one monk, there was this big picture of Bodhidharma on the wall. And he said, that's the founder of Zen. They just can't believe that we've actually been doing this, you know. They think maybe we just put on these suits, you know. I think that's a good observation.

[44:18]

Yeah, I think that's true. I was curious to know a little bit, if Suzuki Roshi is the link between Japan and us, how was he regarded by the bureaucracy when he was alive, and how is he regarded now as a sort of historical figure by them? Yeah, well, when Suzuki Roshi first came here, he was just a temple priest. Nobody knew what Suzuki Roshi was. And he started creating this thing, you know. And then Japanese priests came over to look at it. And they said, what are you doing? They couldn't understand what he was doing. And I couldn't understand why they couldn't understand what he was doing. They really balled him out. And then But now, of course, he's very well accepted and honored and so forth.

[45:28]

But at that time, he wasn't. But now, it's obvious that the growth of Zen is in the West. And they acknowledge that too. There are certain people who acknowledge and certain people who don't. The higher up you go, the less you acknowledge. So what we're dealing with people who are in the lower echelons and also individuals. There are a lot of individuals who, you know. So dealing with bureaucracy is very difficult and nobody wants to do it. Nobody in America wants to deal with Japanese bureaucracy. And they begin to understand that too. But to make the connection and to be able to know that you are acknowledged in Japan, that's a big step. That means that all of our students, we can register our students and they will also be acknowledged in Japan.

[46:37]

And it'll be a completely different way of, if you want to go to a Japanese monastery and practice, you can do that. And if you're an ordained priest and you go to a Japanese monastery, you don't have to be ordained again in Japan. That's what they used to do. Even though somebody was ordained here, they go to Japan to study, they have to be reordained because you have to be ordained in Japan. So... Myself, I like the idea of creating the possibility of this flow rather than keeping it stuck in this place. To me, this is the way to unlock things. To me, that's the most important thing, is to unlock things. I don't care about bureaucracies. Nobody wants to deal with bureaucracies at all. What we want to do is to be free to for people, individuals to relate to us and for us to be able to relate to individuals and have some more free-flowing understanding.

[47:46]

So, you know, I think that things will open up with this. But nobody's, there's no way that anybody can control us. But relating, why not relate? What are we doing in this world if we don't relate to people?

[48:14]

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